If Djokovic wins the remaining two slams and goes 6 in a row is the GOAT conversation over?

First topic message reminder :

First of all, I actually don't think it is likely he will win the next two slams, and that is part of the reason that I am talking about it right now. Hypothetically, could Fed lose the mythical title of GOAT in the wider world if Novak does do something only done by a male player 3 times and ties the all time consecutive slam mark. I mean Novak last lost in a slam 388 days ago to Wawrinka playing video game tennis. Of course this conversation will likely live on even if Novak does the unlikely and pulls off the slam. Already I have sensed a change in the coverage of Djokovic since he has gone 4 in a row and done something that neither Fed or Rafa could ever manage. Now you openly hearing journalists questioning whether Djokovic is the GOAT, something that would have been unthinkable 18 months ago. But his domination later in his career has put many unbreakable Fed records in deep jeopardy. I still think 17 is pretty safe and in fact don't think Novak will do the slam this year. However, weeks at number 1 total is in big jeopardy, at this rate a player would have to win everything beating Novak over and over again for 7 or 8 months to overhaul. And this year he will tie Fed with 5 year end #1s and be the heavy favorite next year to tie Sampras' all time record of 6 YE 1s. He could also break the record for most year end Masters Cups he already has 5 and has been lights out indoors in recent years.

So will the conversation change, will Fed as GOAT become a minority position online and among journalists if Novak pulls off the next two slams? Will Djokovic in the majority of neutral minds supplant Fed as GOAT if this hypothetical takes place?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

emancipator wrote:mute

moot

Thanks, Julius.

I was thinking last night:  "I wonder if Hn shows up if Nole loses"

Good to see you Hn, we are on the opposite sides of the barricade when it comes to Rafa, but we can enjoy today together

Girlish?

Is sexism normal in your area?

Still no channel slam (harder feat than what Djokovic has ever done) andnow will inevitably be caught up by the field as he declines physically.

Great day for tennis

Great post SB - and this is the short termism I was referring to.

A lot of Federer fans did the same when he was still just on 12 slams and people started putting him ahead of Sampras.

Then Nadal fans (a lot of them Sampras fans) did the same when Rafa was far behind in achievements based on a lopsided clay H2H (Only in later years did that translate to other HCs).

And now Djokovic fans are trying to jump the queue.

I love how you guys all celebrate Djokovic losses in slams like it is Christmas. It is so sad what Novak has reduced his haters to, I almost feel for you guys.

socal1976 wrote:By the way he is still winning almost everything in sight so we have to see where he finishes.

Oh yes, he can still make it and overtake Fed the proper way.  I do not expect he will, but I did not expect him to get to 10 slams either.

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:But your 'hypothetical' question had so much arrogant presumption.

Why would winning the calendar slam end the conversation? It would only have started it.

As it stands he's miles behind.

Ok other than stating it in English for you in the opening thread and phrasing the headline like a hypothetical and in fact stating that I didn't think it will happen I don't know how much more clarification I can provide. The reason the conversation was started was because a lot of people have been talking about it, he did win 4 in a row and 5 of 6. Not some mere girlish career slam.

Ok, good for him.

Still an epic fail of a thread.

Ok
Whats a channel slam? Due you mean all in in one year?
Thats just a grand slam isnt it?

summerblues wrote:I was thinking last night:  "I wonder if Hn shows up if Nole loses"

Good to see you Hn, we are on the opposite sides of the barricade when it comes to Rafa, but we can enjoy today together

Like a bad penny sb
Had no real intention of coming back to the kindergarten but if you cant beat them join them.. no JM couldn't give a fig what you or anyone else thinks of me frankly coz I don't think of you at all.

In the words of an old song "My day will come" and it did

socal1976 wrote:I love how you guys all celebrate Djokovic losses in slams like it is Christmas. It is so sad what Novak has reduced his haters to, I almost feel for you guys.

Oh don't waste your sympathy ... coz there aint many that share your pain

Haddie-nuff wrote:
Oh I'm LOVING this... the relaxing of moderation was lauded and applauded though I was not so keen on the idea then I am now... heh heh
Keeping short of personal abuse of course.. never was my scene  anyway.
But there we have a hen house full of mostly on the faces of certain Novak fans. Like him I doubt you want to talk about it awwwwwww!!!!
Pride comes before the fall, one that was inevitable it wasn't a case of if but when..
the unlikely victor, who I actually have never been a fan of, none other than Querry.. the saviour of tennis and one who has now become my hero.
Humility was never one of Novak's strengths or attributes and I would give it to Roger having played to Brits and withstood all the cheers and applause aimed at his opponents never once did I see him look at the crowd for support... but then he is a class act as we all know.
So what was Novak's problem, apart from our God damn awful European weather, where we have liquid sunshine, ?? the scheduling ?? the draw??? the crowd?? his stiff neck???
None of it... Querry had his number, and took his game to him.
On the basis of what I saw Novak would never have won Wimbers anyway. GOAT my arras not on your life... get in the queue..
So to all his smug self satisfied supporters ... I do hope you can now sympathise with the rest of us.. being a Nadal fan he and we have eaten so much humble pie we choked on it.. so we thought we might serve you up a helping   ... lets hope it wont be your last.

signed MUMMA BEAR !!!! Cheers have a drink on me

LOL Haddie,

that's hilarious - you really don't hold back

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:But your 'hypothetical' question had so much arrogant presumption.

Why would winning the calendar slam end the conversation? It would only have started it.

As it stands he's miles behind.

Ok other than stating it in English for you in the opening thread and phrasing the headline like a hypothetical and in fact stating that I didn't think it will happen I don't know how much more clarification I can provide. The reason the conversation was started was because a lot of people have been talking about it, he did win 4 in a row and 5 of 6. Not some mere girlish career slam.

Ok, good for him.

Still an epic fail of a thread.

Actually judging by how it is the most commented on non-match thread and has gotten your blood boiling oh galactic nemesis of mine that this is an epic success as a thread. Socal understands box office my friend.

socal1976 wrote:I love how you guys all celebrate Djokovic losses in slams like it is Christmas.

Why not? Christmas comes every year without fail, but with Nole's losses in slams you never know - so celebrate why they are here.

Again
Whats a channel slam?

em you bring out the worst in me you beggar

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:But your 'hypothetical' question had so much arrogant presumption.

Why would winning the calendar slam end the conversation? It would only have started it.

As it stands he's miles behind.

Ok other than stating it in English for you in the opening thread and phrasing the headline like a hypothetical and in fact stating that I didn't think it will happen I don't know how much more clarification I can provide. The reason the conversation was started was because a lot of people have been talking about it, he did win 4 in a row and 5 of 6. Not some mere girlish career slam.

Ok, good for him.

Still an epic fail of a thread.

Actually judging by how it is the most commented on non-match thread and has gotten your blood boiling oh galactic nemesis of mine that this is an epic success as a thread. Socal understands box office my friend.

At least you're taking it in good grace

I like this thread btw.  socal was clear it was a hypothetical, and that initial lead-off with a little bit ott claims to Nole's GOAThood was a good way to attract attention.

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

emancipator wrote:But your 'hypothetical' question had so much arrogant presumption.

Why would winning the calendar slam end the conversation? It would only have started it.

As it stands he's miles behind.

Ok other than stating it in English for you in the opening thread and phrasing the headline like a hypothetical and in fact stating that I didn't think it will happen I don't know how much more clarification I can provide. The reason the conversation was started was because a lot of people have been talking about it, he did win 4 in a row and 5 of 6. Not some mere girlish career slam.

Ok, good for him.

Still an epic fail of a thread.

Actually judging by how it is the most commented on non-match thread and has gotten your blood boiling oh galactic nemesis of mine that this is an epic success as a thread. Socal understands box office my friend.

At least you're taking it in good grace

I mean judging by the reaction of the djoko haters I am happy to see you guys enjoying your Christmas early, it happens so rarely I mean once in the lost 380 days or so, so actually maybe you should enjoy it more than Christmas. Like I said I am so amused by how happy this makes all of you, that alone is a testament to Djokovic doing the business right, and I said after 7 or 8 slams he exceeded my expectations and it was all gravy from here.

temporary21 wrote:Again
Whats a channel slam?

RG and W combo - across the channel.

Oh the Wimby/RG double.
He did do that... just not within a month of each other

Does that really trump a Novak slam?

summerblues wrote:I like this thread btw.  socal was clear it was a hypothetical, and that initial lead-off with a little bit ott claims to Nole's GOAThood was a good way to attract attention.

Thank you summerblues, you must know that I have special affinity in my heart for goosing online fed fans and getting their backs up. It is a gift I have.

By the way I think it is a valid discussion because even now I do feel Novak missed a big opportunity to push himself further into the consciousness of the tennis world. I think just like that he would have been by large segments crowned GOAt. Still, with the way he has been playing you had expect a lull after he finally won the event that had so cruelly alluded him and completed the Novak slam. In fact, that is exactly how I predicted this year to go. Novak would have unfinished business till the FO, he would be super dialed and if he won he would naturally let up a little opening up a mini-window for someone else.

Personally, Ill be rooting for either Nick or Murray. I hope one of the two wins the whole thing.

temporary21 wrote:Oh the Wimby/RG double.
He did do that... just not within a month of each other

Does that really trump a Novak slam?

When people say Channel Slam, they mean doing it in one year.

No, obviously winning all four in a row is much bigger, but it gives people another angle to talk about things.

Yeah socal, I did not expect him to get CYGS either.  Holding all four is hard enough, and, as you say, having finally won RG may well have made it harder to pick himself up again so quickly and focus at 100%.

I would expect he has good chance to win USO now (better even than if he had won here) - though one never knows, of course.

Well is call that the Borg personally, but ok

Isnt he basically still favourite for it next year right now?

temporary21 wrote:Ok
Whats a channel slam? Due you mean all in in one year?
Thats just a grand slam isnt it?

I though Captain Webb (look him up) was the first person to slam the Channel.

You certainly do understand box office Socal. Just put up something mediocre with a star name and an attention grabbing title and theme and watch the $$$ roll in.

As to the actual topic, is it possible Djokovic lost GOAT today? Arguably he needed CYGS just to get in the game. Now he's likely left himself too much to do.

Henman Bill wrote:You certainly do understand box office Socal. Just put up something mediocre with a star name and an attention grabbing title and theme and watch the $$$ roll in.

As to the actual topic, is it possible Djokovic lost GOAT today? Arguably he needed CYGS just to get in the game. Now he's likely left himself too much to do.

Yeah Djokovic mediocre, keep up with the comedy routine HB it still needs some work.

No you've got it all wrong, Djokovic is not mediocre, the original thread is mediocre. The "star name" is you though so I softened the blow of my cheap insult with equally cheap praise.

I see judging by the number of comments this thread got you should have listened to me and put this in the GOAT thread. Everyone seems to agree with me so I'm sure you'll learn your lesson and listen to me next time.

Henman Bill wrote:No you've got it all wrong, Djokovic is not mediocre, the original thread is mediocre. The "star name" is you though so I softened the blow of my cheap insult with equally cheap praise.

I see judging by the number of comments this thread got you should have listened to me and put this in the GOAT thread. Everyone seems to agree with me    so I'm sure you'll learn your lesson and listen to me next time.

.. in the great words of John McEnroe,....!!!

Henman Bill wrote:No you've got it all wrong, Djokovic is not mediocre, the original thread is mediocre. The "star name" is you though so I softened the blow of my cheap insult with equally cheap praise.

I see judging by the number of comments this thread got you should have listened to me and put this in the GOAT thread. Everyone seems to agree with me    so I'm sure you'll learn your lesson and listen to me next time.

Oh god, are you going to be the sticky monitor? If I get a vote in the election for sticky monitor, I think I will vote for my favorite candidate called NO ONE.

I don't care if you have a sticky monitor, that's your business, I would keep that to myself if I were you.

Some good, spirited debate on here

For what it's worth, I don't attach a huge amount of importance to the CYGS against the "four consecutive slams", not necessarily calendar year. It's all four slams in a row regardless, and the calendar year just seems to me a rather arbitrary measure of where to start time. For similar reasons I attach more importance to weeks at number one than to YE n°1s.

Back to the GOAT debate, you still have to take the number of grand slams as the first measure. At the moment Djokovic has 12 to Fed's 17 so still ranks clearly behind. If he gets to say 15 or 16 you can start the debate. Even taking the hypothetical, 14 still ranks some way below 17, a clear enough distinction certainly.

Basically, when talking GOATs, you look at the following factors:
1) number of slams. You can make adjustments for players missing the AO in the old days, obviously, but overall if two players from similar eras have a gap of more than two slams, that's enough to separate them for me.
2) weeks at n°1, which shows dominance over the field.
3) variety of slams, career grand slams etc. Again adjustments should be made for how different conditions were, etc.
4) WTFs, then Masters.
5) Other stuff.

Fed's records of consecutive slam quarters, etc. are remarkable, but they rank below the first four items on the list. If Djokovic dominates for another three years or so and gets to (letùs be crazy) 19-20 slams, while carrying on being n°1, winning Masters and WTFs, then he passes Fed. The fact that Fed would still hold the record for consecutive slam finals means nothing in that context.

I also find it somewhat hypocritical of Federer fans to talk about weak eras, many of them having for years maintained that there was no such thing...

If's and ifs'... And djokovic passes fed- Sure, but we can play ifs with fed too. He's not finished. Maybe he wins more. No one can forecast how it will all end up, all we know is what has happened. And based on what has happened, djokovic isn't there yet. He's damn good and all time great for sure.

Bjorn Borg is the GOAT.  Federer second.  Nadal came close to being better than Federer but will be remembered for his clay court dominance - as dominant as Borg.  Djokovic is excellent but behind all three.  It doesn't matter what Djokovic does from now on - it's done.  It's over.  He could win another 10 grand slam titles - it doesn't make a difference.  Now I need to work out who was the Tiddlywinks GOAT.  Some say Burt Galomkin was the GOAT but Tobias Thistlewaite the Third was clearly better and would have broken all records if he hadn't have been run over by the Number Five Bus from Tooting.

Nore Staat wrote:Bjorn Borg is the GOAT.  Federer second.  Nadal came close to being better than Federer but will be remembered for his clay court dominance - as dominant as Borg.  Djokovic is excellent but behind all three.

Why is my dear Laver not on this list, after all, he has two CYGSes, does he not?

laverfan wrote:

Nore Staat wrote:Bjorn Borg is the GOAT.  Federer second.  Nadal came close to being better than Federer but will be remembered for his clay court dominance - as dominant as Borg.  Djokovic is excellent but behind all three.

Why is my dear Laver not on this list, after all, he has two CYGSes, does he not?

Everyone knows Rod Laver was not of this Earth and therefore doesn't count.  Between 1963 to 1967 he took part in the Pan Galactic Tennis circuit.  Besides Rod Laver there was Pancho Gonzales who was so good they had to change the then rules of tennis to give others a chance.

As a passionate Tennis lover, I have always admired Novak's skills, achievements and stature. It was never easy challenging the hegemony of Fedal. I have quite grown to like him too.

However the, shall I say unnecessary torch bearing on his behalf hasn't been 'beautiful'. Once the numbers exceed 17, or perhaps the likely 18, one could claim the imaginary crown!

Despite being a very staunch Federer fan (of the current lot) for all his plethora of achievements and beautiful game, I have never belittled greatness of others. Why should one have to constantly be aggressive on this forum to prop up a great player, when he doesn't need that?

Why

Just thought I'd bump this epic thread so we can all...


LOL ROLMFAO

The most epic fail - I'll be sure to bring this up when we do our annual 'post of the year' award.

Enjoy folks



emancipator

You did get the part when right at the beginning I said I didn't think it would happen but it was a hypothetical.

Don't be butthurt bro - just enjoy it - you messed up big time and the emancipator will never let you forget it

But nice try in trying to turn my hypo in to prediction which it never was, in fact I predicted on this very site that Novak would win two slams this year and the first two, why are you trying to spin this thread into something it isn't is beyond me, I think it's called desperation

It's strong with this one

In the words of Dick Emery

"Oh you are awful... but I like ya""

Hello



Does anyone remember this epic fail?

Nostrafreakingdamus



emancipator - may the serve be with you

PS. Screech had the creamiest cakeiest cupcake run of all time (I mean Monfils in a slam semi - that's gotta be a joke)... and still lost.. to Stan who'd already spent twice as long on court as him.

Nah.. he ain't no GOAT

And in answer to the OP..

Is the GOAT conversation over?

Yes.. but Screech ain't part of it

Still rate Rafa higher too

Just to add a little extra salt into the wounds, Djokovic's defeat in the US Open final was his fifth, and therefore he equaled Lendl(US Open) and Murray(Australian Open) as the third man to lose the final at the same event 5 times.

I just had to bump this--- this could be the worst bad luck posting by a fan in history of sport... Not two days after dreaming of 6 in a row and goathood, proclaiming Djoko already a lock for year end #1, all of Feds records in "deep jeopardy" Djoko suffered the shock loss at Wimbledon and it has been all downhill in terms of domination since. This thread was the bad jinx of all jinxes.

Big leads have evaporated quickly before (merely think of Rafa in 09 losing around 4,000 points in a few weeks mid-summer). I think it was quite OK to speculate after the French about just how far Djoko could go.
Although some may have doubted whether he would have been able to keep up his stellar form for the second half of 2016, few would have predicted Nole would have had such a, comparatively, lean time of it.

This thread was just begging to get bumped again, so here goes.  A look at the OP (written after RG last year):

socal1976 wrote:First of all, I actually don't think it is likely he will win the next two slams, and that is part of the reason that I am talking about it right now.

This turned out to be yet another prophetic statement by Nostrafreakingdamus.

socal1976 wrote:Now you openly hearing journalists questioning whether Djokovic is the GOAT, something that would have been unthinkable 18 months ago.

...and now you don't.

socal1976 wrote:I still think 17 is pretty safe

It was not.

socal1976 wrote:But his domination later in his career has put many unbreakable Fed records in deep jeopardy. [...] weeks at number 1 total is in big jeopardy, at this rate a player would have to win everything beating Novak over and over again for 7 or 8 months to overhaul.

Andy overtook Novak 4 short months later, without having to even play Novak once.

socal1976 wrote:And this year he will tie Fed with 5 year end #1s and be the heavy favorite next year to tie Sampras' all time record of 6 YE 1s.

...erm, or not.

How astonishingly quickly things can change.  I think some of socal's predictions were always a little risky, but I also think that vast majority of us thought, at that time, that Novak was going to comfortably finish as YE #1.

And now he keeps losing to Goffin, Kyrgios and even lesser players, his game is in shambles, and he (presumably) meditates with, and takes long hugs from, Pepe.