The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

Munchkin wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:Whether people like it or not the country voted to leave the EU and I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of a 2nd Referendum, those who did fail to vote and wanted to remain have in my opinion no argument.

I don't think a 2nd referendum will happen. I do think a 2nd referendum would vote Remain, even if the exact same voters come out.

Quite possibly.

DAVE667 wrote:

my generation, will be the ones to look back on 20th Century foreign policy with absolute disgust and start to protect the citizens of the world from genocide, famine, epidemics, murder and torture regardless of whether or not we stand to make financial gains.

Given we've just seen footage of a woman doing a video stream of her dead boyfriend and continues vlogging whilst in the back of a Police Car whilst her young child requires comfort, I'd wager your dreams of a caring utopia are as far away as they've ever been.

From what I read it seems as if the young child was somewhat more in control than the mother. I guess shock can do that. You don't expect someone to get shot for reaching for their driving license.

SecretFly wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote: It starts at the top, and it starts with Russia and China. If the superpowers can start to sing from the same hymn sheet then everything is possible.

What starts with Russia and China. Exiled?

Global co-operation among the superpowers. If the US and EU can't reach a consensus with Russia and China, then the UN (and international law) is powerless to take any form of intervention.

lostinwales wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

my generation, will be the ones to look back on 20th Century foreign policy with absolute disgust and start to protect the citizens of the world from genocide, famine, epidemics, murder and torture regardless of whether or not we stand to make financial gains.

Given we've just seen footage of a woman doing a video stream of her dead boyfriend and continues vlogging whilst in the back of a Police Car whilst her young child requires comfort, I'd wager your dreams of a caring utopia are as far away as they've ever been.

From what I read it seems as if the young child was somewhat more in control than the mother. I guess shock can do that. You don't expect someone to get shot for reaching for their driving license.

Most young black American males do!!!!!!!

DAVE667 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

my generation, will be the ones to look back on 20th Century foreign policy with absolute disgust and start to protect the citizens of the world from genocide, famine, epidemics, murder and torture regardless of whether or not we stand to make financial gains.

Given we've just seen footage of a woman doing a video stream of her dead boyfriend and continues vlogging whilst in the back of a Police Car whilst her young child requires comfort, I'd wager your dreams of a caring utopia are as far away as they've ever been.

From what I read it seems as if the young child was somewhat more in control than the mother. I guess shock can do that. You don't expect someone to get shot for reaching for their driving license.

Most young black American males do!!!!!!!

Whilst that statement obviously isn't true, the use of guns in the US, both by the police and the general public, is frankly disturbing. The manner in which elected Republicans consistently block gun control legislation is remarkable, and whilst this particular issue is also one of law enforcement, I'm told by a friend who lives out there that the Dallas police are generally considered one of the more progressive forces in the US (a low bar admittedly).

I should also add that I don't think this has much bearing on my hopes for a concerted foreign policy effort across the superpowers in this century!

SecretFly wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote: It starts at the top, and it starts with Russia and China. If the superpowers can start to sing from the same hymn sheet then everything is possible.

What starts with Russia and China. Exiled?

I'd say it starts with the US and ends with Russia/China is a more accurate way to describe the present global situation.

lostinwales wrote:A french mate of mine who lives in the US thinks Trump may win for exactly the same reasons as BREXIT won - that same disenchantment with mainstream politics.

Its hard to say what will happen in this country although it increasingly seems we will somehow muddle through in typical fashion. Trump on the other hand is genuinely scary. A very wealthy con artist who has somehow managed to hoodwink a large proportion of the population in the US.

He's been an onlooker though most of it though, hasn't he?  He wasn't centre stage as this sense of creeping worldwide 'madness' was developing for quite a number of years now.  He's merely yet another symptom that's arrived as a consequence - another guy who appears and claims he's had enough of the 'madness' and is going to change it.

Stranger things have happened actually.  

Mr Two-Tribes-Go-to-War, Reagan, he alluded to a far more grim world when he was going forward for President and in his initial years of office.  He was seen as an extremely dangerous character.  Those of us old enough remember the televised 'preparation' documentaries for Nuclear holocaust.  The fear was real.  Our Generation's Cuban Missile crisis.  But it turned out that the 'idiot' Reagan went to Reykjavík to start the process that paved the way for ending 40 years of a Cold War.  In the end, he helped bring more Hope and sanity to the World than a few decades full of previous more 'conventional' Leaders.

Me - I blame a lot of the Present World meltdown on this (not exclusively but a lot of it) - this very tool we all use - 24 hour world views of real time events as they happen, and the mass chattering worldwide that happens across the Networks in the aftermath.  Viral paranoia on a worldwide scale.

Maybe the World needs a few 'eejit' Leaders to surprising calm us all down again.  The UK missed out on Boris and instead seek sanctuary yet again on Grey Officiousness.  Grey Officiousness (Obama, Cameron, Merkel, etc) has been the controlling norm - as Rome burns.  

I'd personally vote Trump to see what a mad guy might do to end the madness.

Maybe you have a situation that if you have one idiot who might 'press the button' it tends to focus the minds of others who have a greater appreciation of what they have to lose.

If you have 2 or more idiots who is going to back down?

lostinwales wrote:Maybe you have a situation that if you have one idiot who might 'press the button' it tends to focus the minds of others who have a greater appreciation of what they have to lose.

If you have 2 or more idiots who is going to back down?

Trump and Boris would have had the world laughing - it's good to laugh. Even the Chinese and Russians would be laughing behind the frowns of disapproval.

Trump and Gove.............................................. hmmmmmm, that would have been WW3. Gove taunting Trump would'a done it.

Clinton and May - two peace loving woman types?.................................. planet in cinders within a year

Trump doesn't want to be President..It's a 70 year old ego obsessed man's final rage against the dying light..

Trump doesn't really exist.....But Donald does....Donald is a bitter old man....a grudge carrying bully.....that lacks self esteem....He wishes he was Trump that all conquering...towering figure that apparently slays everyone before him in Donald's eyes!!..

Being President would mean working....

However just remember that he's only a terrorist atrocity close to the election away....from the White house...Bush was re-elected in 2004 by scaring America..

USA is a scared Country at the moment...Terrorism is still a relatively novel concept to grasp..

Don't rule Trump out...He's been lucky so far and it's often better to be lucky than competent in politics..

doctor_grey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Also, to those who believe that there was no justification for removing Saddam, do remember the atrocities committed by his regime. He killed hundreds of thousands of his own people, the use of torture was widespread and, let's not forget, he was responsible for invading Kuwait and starting a war.

Just imagine if Theresa May instructed the Army to murder 250,000 UK civilians and torture countless more. Would we really believe that there would be no justification for the US and EU removing her?

There are, of course, at least two sides to this extremely complex situation, but I do take issue with those who say that there was "no justification" for the invasion.

Yes, he was a brutal dictator, and was responsible for the deaths of around 250,000.

How many Iraqis have died since the West rode in to deliver the world from Saddams WMD's, while also saving the Iraqi's from their evil ruler? 500,000?

How many orphans since then? Roughly between 800,000 - 1million.

How many displaced? Some estimates over 3 million displaced.

I'm not saying that Saddam should have been left in power, clearly not, but that other measures should have been taken, or at least a much more indepth military plan, and level of commitment to the people of Iraq. They have been abandoned.

Listening to the news over the last couple of days, I note the grief and frustration of British relatives of those killed in combat, but very little, if anything, said about the horrors inflicted upon the Iraqi people, and the ongoing suffering since Western military intervention.

Ok boys, I apologise in advance, but here goes:

Saddam Hussain was an in or out proposition.  There was no alternative and no third option.  All power was concentrated in his hands.  Take him out and there was no political or security structure to replace him.  I was there when we went in and we all knew there was nothing behind him.  What has happened after was inevitable.  In the Muslim Middle East he had a Christian PM and a woman the head of a key part of his military complex.  Alcohol was not banned and women had jobs, did not have to cover themselves, and could go out without family members.  Moral Ambiguity Point Number 604:  Was it worse in Iraq then or now?  Should that son of a bitch been left in power?  Or should the current sons of bitches be marauding across the country?

And what about Assad?  He kept the peace in his country and only fired the occasional weapon towards Israel just to keep his local credentials.  Who was better?  Him or the other guys?  Here is the hint - he will survive this.  Only cost a million lives.

I know it is another Moral Ambiguity Point, but we don't have a freakin clue how to manage that part of the world.  How does this impact the Brexit (or not) discussion?  No idea.   If Labour had a competent bipedal humanoid leading the party, they would be running the country already.  Every time I think the world is upside down, it flips over on me.  Again.  

I watched BBCNI news last night, and they interviewed three Iraqi Doctors who now live in Northern Ireland. All three stated that Iraq was a much better place to live in while  Hussein was in control. They claim Iraq was much more stable under the Dictators regime. A regime that offered security, employment, better access to health care, better education.
I would never advocate for someone like Hussein or Assad staying in power, but can't agree that going to war against Iraq was the lesser of two evils, even if Hussein did need removed from power. It would have been a question of how that happens and when.

Every single time we intervene in the Middle East we cause irreversible damage that only gets worse with each consecutive war. Our corrupt politicians do this with our tax money and then also expect us (the paying public) to house and feed the millions of refugees created by that same government. The fact that people seem okay with this is, to me, mind boggling. 

That isn't even mentioning the worse part, which is the broken homes and families that can never be replaced.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/07/sajid-javid-to-start-round-the-world-trade-tour-to-secure-britis/

Ah, Global Britannia, not 'Little England', however much the Remainians may pretend otherwise.

He needs to just in case we do leave the EU.

Duty281 wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/07/sajid-javid-to-start-round-the-world-trade-tour-to-secure-britis/

Ah, Global Britannia, not 'Little England', however much the Remainians may pretend otherwise.

Its all important and necessary, although given that the pound is now the worst performing currency against the dollar this year it does feel like trying to treat the victim of a shark attack with a sticky plaster

The current state of Brexit in one handy diagram:

The state of play as a whole.

Unions think Watson ended the talks because they think he's confident the coup can keep Corbyn off the ballot...

Labour definitely needs to dump the clown but by screwing him over ?? .

They will need left wing votes....

Don't these wallies ever think things through ??


Clowns to the left of me..Jokers to the right...

Stuck in the middle with you..

Duty281 wrote:

The state of play as a whole.

Wow. You state that like it's fact? You live in a dreamworld, one that I hope turns in to a nightmare for you.

The FTSE 100 has largely foreign based companies in its listing. They have profited rather well from the collapse of the £ - the 100 is in no way shape or form a barometer of the UK economy, so stop peddling nonsense.

The FTSE 250 - Yes, on the "face" of it has done ok. But then you disect past the rubbish you've stated as fact and look at how JUST the UK based companies are doing - when you do that (and I doubt you have done or will due to a lack of intelligence) you see that the UK based companies are taking an absolute pummelling.

Carney: Has had to inject more money in to the system and cutting interest rates are a must as market confidence is falling off the radar. That isn't "we'll be ok". Carney has also said pre-brexit fears are crystallising.

Osbourne: Cutting corporation tax is seen by most sensible/intelligent people (you don't belong in either group) as a desperate attempt to attract investment, as pointed out the UK based companies are going through the wringer as investors pull out quicker than a pornstar.

You don't even know what the EEA deal entails, as it basically means we have to accept freedom of movement which goes against your racist bigoted view.

Sterling has collapsed to a 31 year low, and is continuing to fall.

Read how there's been a freeze by three of the biggest property fund companies? I guess not.

Read how that every sensible economist is saying a recession is on the horizon? And it will dwarf the 2008 crisis by a mile.

You're clueless. Hopefully an unemployed/has no future kind of clueless inside a couple of years.

And to think nothing has actually changed. You just wait until May invokes Article 50 and then watch Great Britain disolves in to a third world country inhabited by those scummy immigrants you so hated as every man and women who isn't part of the C/D demographic emmigrates to sunnier climates as businesses open their arms to their skillsets.

Duty281 wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/07/sajid-javid-to-start-round-the-world-trade-tour-to-secure-britis/

Ah, Global Britannia, not 'Little England', however much the Remainians may pretend otherwise.

Let's just wait upon the outcome of all of these trade talks shall we....

Relax people. Anyone with children is more intelligent anyway and will thus ride the Brexit storm better - so Carney has stated anyway.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Duty281 wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/07/sajid-javid-to-start-round-the-world-trade-tour-to-secure-britis/

Ah, Global Britannia, not 'Little England', however much the Remainians may pretend otherwise.

Let's just wait upon the outcome of all of these trade talks shall we....

Coxy ain't waiting for nobody!!!

SecretFly wrote:Relax people.  Anyone with children is more intelligent anyway and will thus ride the Brexit storm better - so Carney has stated anyway.

I thought it was Leadsom playing the family card....

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Duty281 wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/07/sajid-javid-to-start-round-the-world-trade-tour-to-secure-britis/

Ah, Global Britannia, not 'Little England', however much the Remainians may pretend otherwise.

Let's just wait upon the outcome of all of these trade talks shall we....

Let's just be glad that they're happening!

SecretFly wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Duty281 wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/07/sajid-javid-to-start-round-the-world-trade-tour-to-secure-britis/

Ah, Global Britannia, not 'Little England', however much the Remainians may pretend otherwise.

Let's just wait upon the outcome of all of these trade talks shall we....

Coxy ain't waiting for nobody!!!

Too bloody right! Already offloaded shares and busy looking at jobs in Australia!

But Australia aren't in the EU? What you gonna do?

Duty281 wrote:

The state of play as a whole.

Do you know what? I won't go quite as far as Coxy. What I will say is that

1) lots and lots of half truths do not add up to a whole truth. Take the similar documents kicking around that demonstrate Corbyn is an effective leader   .Stats say lots of things depending on how they are used. The one that says that so far this year the pound is now officially the worst performing currency against the dollar. (worse than the argentinian peso) is interesting.
2) Things haven't quite gone into meltdown because we haven't left the EU yet.
3) I actually think that long term we'll be fine either way. However 'long term' could be a very long time. As the father of 2 kids I'd rather like it if there were actually jobs for them to go to in 10 years time when they'll be looking (probably less than that if daddy can't afford Uni fees). I am fed up of living through recessions, which makes the idea of living through a deep and avoidable one somewhat frustrating

Leadsome has gone.

Which means May is likely to be in far sooner than September.
Which means that the Brexit button gets officially pushed sooner.
Which means Putin is going to nuke us sooner.
Which means NI & Scotland vote to leave us and bugger off back to the EU.
Which means Duty will be living in a third world country with all the immigrants.

DOOOOOOOMED.

Coxy001 wrote:Leadsome has gone.

Which means May is likely to be in far sooner than September.
Which means that the Brexit button gets officially pushed sooner.
Which means Putin is going to nuke us sooner.
Which means NI & Scotland vote to leave us and bugger off back to the EU.
Which means Duty will be living in a third world country with all the immigrants.

DOOOOOOOMED.

Finally an overview I can agree with, Coxy

But you forgot the bit I'm most afraid of:

Arlene Foster
Nicola Sturgeon
Theresa May
Hilary Clinton

Which means too many Tupperware parties being held as Europe burns.

SecretFly wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:Leadsome has gone.

Which means May is likely to be in far sooner than September.
Which means that the Brexit button gets officially pushed sooner.
Which means Putin is going to nuke us sooner.
Which means NI & Scotland vote to leave us and bugger off back to the EU.
Which means Duty will be living in a third world country with all the immigrants.

DOOOOOOOMED.

Finally an overview I can agree with, Coxy

But you forgot the bit I'm most afraid of:

Arlene Foster
Nicola Sturgeon
Theresa May
Hilary Clinton

Which means too many Tupperware parties being held as Europe burns.

Could be worse......could be Anne Summers' parties.

Nothing wrong with Ann Summer parties

Will May hit the button?

Munchkin wrote:Will May hit the button?

Which one?

The one that Trump is going to hit when he gets elected?

Munchkin wrote:Nothing wrong with Ann Summer parties

There certainly is if the above list are involved in modelling the goods.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Will May hit the button?

Which one?

The one that Trump is going to hit when he gets elected?

No, we will trust Trump in leading us to Armageddon, ably supported by Putin.

May may hit the Brexit button though. Just slightly less catastrophic

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Nothing wrong with Ann Summer parties

There certainly is if the above list are involved in modelling the goods.

Oh, fair point. Not something I want to think about really

Munchkin wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Nothing wrong with Ann Summer parties

There certainly is if the above list are involved in modelling the goods.

Oh, fair point. Not something I want to think about really

Are you sure you wouldn't be interested in the Ann Summers Merkel's jerkels range?

May has already said she's taking the UK out - no half measures. So I assume she is a woman of her word and will hit the button at some stage, Munch. I guess all the betting is on 'when'. The end of the year or when hell freezes over

ShahenshahG wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Nothing wrong with Ann Summer parties

There certainly is if the above list are involved in modelling the goods.

Oh, fair point. Not something I want to think about really

Are you sure you wouldn't be interested in the Ann Summers  Merkel's jerkels range?

May's mimsy mask

rick_dagless wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Nothing wrong with Ann Summer parties

There certainly is if the above list are involved in modelling the goods.

Oh, fair point. Not something I want to think about really

Are you sure you wouldn't be interested in the Ann Summers  Merkel's jerkels range?

May's mimsy mask

Hilary's Hooter Holders

ShahenshahG wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Nothing wrong with Ann Summer parties

There certainly is if the above list are involved in modelling the goods.

Oh, fair point. Not something I want to think about really

Are you sure you wouldn't be interested in the Ann Summers  Merkel's jerkels range?

Something that's beyond even the torturing visions of Dante

Sturgeons Shoulder boulder holders

SecretFly wrote:May has already said she's taking the UK out - no half measures.  So I assume she is a woman of her word and will hit the button at some stage, Munch.  I guess all the betting is on 'when'.  The end of the year or when hell freezes over

A politician keeping their word will be a novelty, but you're right, I think. It needs to happen anyway, but only when in the UK's best interests.

Eagles Enthusiastic Embonpoint

May's Mighty Minge Masher

Fosters feathered feltching kit

Morgans Mammary Matadors

Oh hell...I might as well join in - though I deplore smut!

Clinton's clitorial clamps

Jowell's Jocular Jubblies

May will be PM by Wednesday. That was quick.

Munchkin wrote:May will be PM by Wednesday. That was quick.

Pm's Premature Ejaculation