The Future for the PRO 12 - Part 2 - USA Expansion

First topic message reminder :

We've had the discussion on how does the PRO12 move forward for much of last season.

Towards the end of the season, PR012 CEO, Martin Anayi gave several media interviews on his own, and with PRO 12 chairman, Gerald Davies, on where the PRO12 needs to go to cope with changes in rugby within Six Nations and globally.

Anayi and Davies identified and acknowledged a number of the issues raised by PRO clubs CEOs and fans including increase in TV monies, match-day attendances, marketing, standard of refereeing, season structure and test window matches,  scheduling of season matches/kick-off times including Sunday games, European competitions, player welfare/concussion, growing "event" weekends, etc.

Anayi and Davies met with PRO12 CEOs over the last season to discuss issues and get feedback on a number of proposals that would mark out the future for the PRO 12 and its member unions.  

From various media interviews and reports - some unsubstantiated - a number of key decisions are being considered by PRO 12 and its 12 member clubs along with their representative organisations and unions.  In summary, these would appear to include:

• Changes to season scheduling to make it more accessible, consistent, and appealing to fans across the four unions territories starting from next season 2016/17.
  
• Further investment in a referee development programme to deal with issues/perceptions of bias and neutrality for league fixtures
  
• Stronger and more localised marketing and promotion of league games by the PRO12 and by the individual clubs to attract fans to games and make it more appealing to broadcasters.
  
• More promotion and stronger branding/marketing of games by TV partners
  
• Changing the structure of the league from home & away 22 games to a conference/pool structure that can accommodate more teams in the future from other unions/territories e.g. North America and South Africa, with East Coast of America being the first target to develop a franchise with operational and coaching expertise being provided by the four unions.
  
• Development of Big Event Weekends to drive crowd numbers, create a more appealing product for TV companies/sponsors, and generate more revenues for the PRO12
  
• Reduce number of games played during season and re-strucure so that no "league" games are played during the test windows in November and Feb/March
  
• Consequently, this would allow a greater proportion of league games to have test players involved and increase quality of product.
  
• During test windows, the PRO CEOs want rugby to continue, and a revised development competition is being proposed for these periods for development of academy and young players within squads not involved in test rugby.  This may involve changes to the British & Irish Cup and the Anglo-Wlesh Cup.  One report indicates that Premier Rugby may be interested in discussing the creation of a British & Irish development cup to replace the current AW Cup that would attract increased sponsorship and TV money than currently.
  

It's clear that changes need to occur for the PRO12.   The current structure and set-up is neither sufficient nor sustainable.   The most recent comments on this from the CEO of the IRFU in publishing their annual report indicate this clearly, and what changes need to occur.  He also commented on the plans to develop a franchise in the US.

The potential for the development of a B&I league has been regularly discussed on 606v2, but for the purposes of this topic, it's not being included as the Premiership has commitments for the next 6-7 years on its TV deals that would not countenance such a move.  

Feel free to comment/dispute/argue on what is being proposed - any errors are entirely mine.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:I simply cannot see what the positive long term future holds for Union owned and controlled, elite franchise systems, when competing with a privately owned club system which provides greater access to fans and finance - which professional sport is all about. Perhaps Govt funding is the future - one Pro12 team seems to have done well out of it.

I still don't get how the issue of ownership changes anything, are there 12 multi-millionaires out there just waiting to throw money into teams if only the pesky unions would let them ? And how does this give greater fan access ?

The private ownership approach means you can have a competitive domestic league - unless you believe any particular Union could fund a domestic league on their own. Resorting to a small number of elite teams providing Test players is my reference on access for fans and finance.

SecretFly wrote:Keep side-stepping the truth that SKY like that the Irish are in Pro12.

I would never argue against that. Why are you now making things up to suit your agenda ?

Of course Sky like the Irish in the Pro12, who wouldn't like the fact that big hitters like Leinster are in the league ?

But I would wager that they also like that the Welsh, Scottish and Italians are in there as well. What I am saying is, Sky did not purchase the Pro12 because of the Irish.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:No...I can't see the hypocrisy. I can though see your confusion.

Nope, no confusion from me, I can clearly see the sidestepping, backtracking, and hypocrisy though. I think it is you, Sin e and Pot Hale who are confused.

Have it your own way, Lord. The English language for most of us speaks for itself.

Glad to see you're so animated by the 'faults of the Welsh' yet again though.  You always give it a mention, just for appearances sakes; and then proceed to rush back to your favourite subject - "the Irish and what they never did for none of us no-how!"

I've started so I'll finish!!!...........................

SecretFly wrote:Glad to see you're so animated by the 'faults of the Welsh' yet again though. You always give it a mention, just for appearances sakes; and then proceed to rush back to your favourite subject - "the Irish and what they never did for none of us no-how!"

See, now you are again making things up. Please show me where I have alluded to any of this ?

My debate is the fact that the Irish broadcasters do not pay the going rate for the Pro12 product, neither do the Scottish BBC/Alba or the Italians. I then have people on here, Irish people, telling me that if it was not for Leinster or Munster, Sky would never have purchased the Pro12 rights, then I have Irish people telling me that the Pro12 is not even popular in Ireland. FFS, then why is Sky only buying the rights because of the Irish teams, can you not see the hypocrisy ?

No you would rather make things up, and say things I have not said to suit your agenda.

No wonder the Irish broadcasters are not paying the going rate, the Pro12 is not even in the top 5 interests over there. It's not the Welsh/WRU holding the league back, it's the attitudes of our partners towards the league that is holding us back.

They blatently do pay the going rate or they wouldn't have secured the rights.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They blatently do pay the going rate or they wouldn't have secured the rights.

No they do not, they pay what they have left after they have given the rest for the rights of other sports. None of the other nations broadcasters pay anything near what the Welsh broadcasters pay, the going rate should be what the highest bid is.

LordDowlais wrote:No, this is what you said:-

Sin é wrote:All sport, bar GAA & League of Ireland football and PRO12 are on pay tv.

As I've explained to you, GAA is national sport and it is considered important that it is on FTA.
League of Ireland football isn't that popular.
Then there is the PRO12 (which isn't that popular anyway). There is no English football / highlights programme anymore. We used to have Champions League, but I think thats gone now.

Notice the bit in bold. Now, stop backtracking.

Notice the adverb in red.

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:No, this is what you said:-

Sin é wrote:All sport, bar GAA & League of Ireland football and PRO12 are on pay tv.

As I've explained to you, GAA is national sport and it is considered important that it is on FTA.
League of Ireland football isn't that popular.
Then there is the PRO12 (which isn't that popular anyway). There is no English football / highlights programme anymore. We used to have Champions League, but I think thats gone now.

Notice the bit in bold. Now, stop backtracking.

Notice the adverb in red.

That is very different to as.

Now please stop backtracking. You have said that the Pro12 is not that popular in Ireland, do you still stand by that statement ? Secretfly agree's with you.

LordDowlais wrote:In fact Secretfly you have said as much so yourself:-

SecretFly wrote:The Irish free to air broadcasters pay for what they can afford, and sorry to tell all people across the water - yet one more time - that rugby comes lower down on the list of sports the majority of Irish people want to watch.  Money goes to what the public want to watch.

So you see, you must see my bemusement when I read stuff written by Irish people like this, then have them trying to tell me something completely opposite. Can you not see the hypocrisy ?

You take Sin e's comments expressed as his opinion and attribute that to all Irish fans as fact. That's your problem. When Sin e gives his opinion on something, it's not necessarily factual/accurate. It's giving his opinion.

I'm of the view that Leinster and Munster's success would have had a part to play in Sky assessing the PRO 12 rights and valuing them. Equally, they would have looked at crowds, general attendances, appeal factor, the value of the three different marketplaces as they saw it. They got rights as primary broadcaster. And they had the pick of XX games on Saturdays in the main.

People have different views and opinions. It's not that difficult a concept to follow.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:No, this is what you said:-

Sin é wrote:All sport, bar GAA & League of Ireland football and PRO12 are on pay tv.

As I've explained to you, GAA is national sport and it is considered important that it is on FTA.
League of Ireland football isn't that popular.
Then there is the PRO12 (which isn't that popular anyway). There is no English football / highlights programme anymore. We used to have Champions League, but I think thats gone now.

Notice the bit in bold. Now, stop backtracking.

Notice the adverb in red.

That is very different to as.

Now please stop backtracking. You have said that the Pro12 is not that popular in Ireland, do you still stand by that statement ? Secretfly agree's with you.

Yeah - I would agree with that statement. PRO12 is not that popular in Ireland - in comparison to other sports.

It has its moments though - as I demonstrated with the viewership figures I posted earlier.

Pot Hale wrote:People have different views and opinions. It's not that difficult a concept to follow.

There are more than one Irish member who have said the same things though.

Also, I noticed how none of you are prepared to put it out laid bare what the Irish TV broadcaster pay to air other sports compared to the Pro12. I want an Irish person to put this on here, so that it cannot be manipulated by other Irish members. Let me guess though, you want me to stop being lazy and to do it myself, even though you wanted everybody else to give you the info on ticket prices, when you could have just as easily looked for it yourself.

Now can you see the hypocrisy of some of our Irish friends on here ?

Pot Hale wrote:Yeah - I would agree with that statement. PRO12 is not that popular in Ireland - in comparison to other sports.

Ah so we have gone from "Not that popular" to "Not that popular in comparison to other sports".

Good grief, am I the only one seeing this on here ?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Glad to see you're so animated by the 'faults of the Welsh' yet again though.  You always give it a mention, just for appearances sakes; and then proceed to rush back to your favourite subject - "the Irish and what they never did for none of us no-how!"

See, now you are again making things up. Please show me where I have alluded to any of this ?

My debate is the fact that the Irish broadcasters do not pay the going rate for the Pro12 product, neither do the Scottish BBC/Alba or the Italians. I then have people on here, Irish people, telling me that if it was not for Leinster or Munster, Sky would never have purchased the Pro12 rights, then I have Irish people telling me that the Pro12 is not even popular in Ireland. FFS, then why is Sky only buying the rights because of the Irish teams, can you not see the hypocrisy ?

Where are the myriad threads on the Welsh Problems?  Not a lot of them about, are there?  So yes, the odd mouthful of 'balanced view' - perhaps three paragraphs maybe per three or four threads dealing with the specifics of the Problem with Ireland/Irish/Ref/IRFU/mucho bucks/no bucks involvement in Pro12.  The Irish bit is forever and a day the problem bit, yet whilst always proving to be largely the most consistently good bit.

But enough about the Welsh bit - let's get back to the bit that never gets discussed - the Irish bit!

Your highlighted bit.  Answer me this - in terms of the popularity of Sports in the England part of the UK, where do you think Rugby Union comes?  

Pop-ul-arity is a relative state.

In terms of sports available in Ireland either to participate in or view - rugby is not in the top.  

BUT - IT - STILL - HAS - ENOUGH - OF - A - FOLLOWING - TO - MAKE - IT - VIABLE - FOR - SKY - TO - COVER - IT - IN - THE - IRISH - MARKETPLACE.

Wales: Rugby quite popular (approx. 3M people)
Ireland: Rugby not as popular as it is in Wales (approx. 6M people)

Rugby in Ireland: Room enough to be attractive to broadcaster but still not as popular as it could be.

SecretFly wrote:Where are the myriad threads on the Welsh Problems?

https://www.606v2.com/t62152-gwent-dragons-2015-16-thread

https://www.606v2.com/t63479-are-the-wru-increasing-the-funds-for-ndc-s

https://www.606v2.com/t63434-rgc1404-region-or-club

https://www.606v2.com/t63392-state-of-the-union-in-wales

https://www.606v2.com/t62397-ospreys-2015-16-season

https://www.606v2.com/t63059-what-an-absolutely-pathetic-end-to-the-welsh-regional-season

There you are there's some for starters for you to get your teeth into.

SecretFly wrote:Rugby in Ireland: Room enough to be attractive to broadcaster but still not as popular as it could be.

So why don't the Irish broadcasters pay as much as the Welsh then ?

SecretFly wrote:The Irish bit is forever and a day the problem bit, yet whilst always proving to be largely the most consistently good bit.

Thats a lie as well. You know I have always argued about the refs in our league, and how they are employed. But I do not moan about the Irish system.

On this thread, I have taken the fact that people have claimed we have Sky on board because of the Irish. I have also pointed out that the Irish do not care that much about the Pro12 and used that has evidence as to why the Irish broadcasters only pay a pittence in comparison to BBC Wales/S4C for the rights to broadcast the product.

I have also taken umbrage over the way that our Irish members on here blame all the failings for our league on the Welsh/WRU. So I take it back to you, where are all the threads where our Irish member accept that the IRFU are not blameless in our leagues failings ?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Where are the myriad threads on the Welsh Problems?

https://www.606v2.com/t62152-gwent-dragons-2015-16-thread

https://www.606v2.com/t63479-are-the-wru-increasing-the-funds-for-ndc-s

https://www.606v2.com/t63434-rgc1404-region-or-club

https://www.606v2.com/t63392-state-of-the-union-in-wales

https://www.606v2.com/t62397-ospreys-2015-16-season

https://www.606v2.com/t63059-what-an-absolutely-pathetic-end-to-the-welsh-regional-season

There you are there's some for starters for you to get your teeth into.

SecretFly wrote:Rugby in Ireland: Room enough to be attractive to broadcaster but still not as popular as it could be.

So why don't the Irish broadcasters pay as much as the Welsh then ?

Jesus!  No way!  

Unlike you boys when discussing all things Irish, I don't find talking about Welsh Rugby sexy  Far too complicated - especially when all the current Regions have an address in one Region, when the clubs hate them, when the Regions hate the WRU, when the WRU hates the Regions, when the National coach organises an International on the weekend of the Pro12 final etc etc ....  Much too much hate and confusion going around.  The 'Irish are idiots' threads are a gentler kind of hate mostly .  You enjoy those Welsh threads, Lord.

On your last point...................................... here we go, here we go, around the bloody bush again.  Irish folks pay for Sky coverage.  That goes into Sky who prop up Pro12.  The Welsh only pay a bit of the money BBC Wales pays.  The Northern Irish boys and the Scots pay their percentage too - licence fee.   Hell, even the bad lads from the AP pay their fair share for Welsh coverage of the Pro12! ...

How many times are we going to circle these wagons, Lord?

LordDowlais wrote:

So why don't the Irish broadcasters pay as much as the Welsh then ?

You really don't read responses on here.  

What Irish broadcasters are you referring to

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Glad to see you're so animated by the 'faults of the Welsh' yet again though.  You always give it a mention, just for appearances sakes; and then proceed to rush back to your favourite subject - "the Irish and what they never did for none of us no-how!"

See, now you are again making things up. Please show me where I have alluded to any of this ?

My debate is the fact that the Irish broadcasters do not pay the going rate for the Pro12 product, neither do the Scottish BBC/Alba or the Italians. I then have people on here, Irish people, telling me that if it was not for Leinster or Munster, Sky would never have purchased the Pro12 rights, then I have Irish people telling me that the Pro12 is not even popular in Ireland. FFS, then why is Sky only buying the rights because of the Irish teams, can you not see the hypocrisy ?

No you would rather make things up, and say things I have not said to suit your agenda.

No wonder the Irish broadcasters are not paying the going rate, the Pro12 is not even in the top 5 interests over there. It's not the Welsh/WRU holding the league back, it's the attitudes of our partners towards the league that is holding us back.

LD, when the Welsh Regions go off on a solo run (it seems) and sell off their rights to BBC Wales, why would the Scots or Irish pay a premium to something that all Scots & Irish viewers get. It would be particularly hard for other public service broadcasters to justify buying rights that is already available on FTA. It must be particularly annoying for the Scots as obviously the Welsh have 'bagged' the BBC.

Sky know what they can do with the Irish teams as they have seen what has happened with the Heineken Cup. Sky did say they were interested in developing the league you know, but I imagine that will be down to getting exclusive rights to it to make it a worthwhile investment.

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:I simply cannot see what the positive long term future holds for Union owned and controlled, elite franchise systems, when competing with a privately owned club system which provides greater access to fans and finance - which professional sport is all about. Perhaps Govt funding is the future - one Pro12 team seems to have done well out of it.

I still don't get how the issue of ownership changes anything, are there 12 multi-millionaires out there just waiting to throw money into teams if only the pesky unions would let them ? And how does this give greater fan access ?

The private ownership approach means you can have a competitive domestic league -  unless you believe any particular Union could fund a domestic league on their own. Resorting to a small number of elite teams providing Test players is my reference on access for fans and finance.

If private ownership is the answer where are the owners going to the WRU, "can you please back out, we want to run the team ourselves" ?

Even the English clubs take funding from the RFU, in fact they are dependent on it in many cases to balance the books.

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Glad to see you're so animated by the 'faults of the Welsh' yet again though.  You always give it a mention, just for appearances sakes; and then proceed to rush back to your favourite subject - "the Irish and what they never did for none of us no-how!"

See, now you are again making things up. Please show me where I have alluded to any of this ?

My debate is the fact that the Irish broadcasters do not pay the going rate for the Pro12 product, neither do the Scottish BBC/Alba or the Italians. I then have people on here, Irish people, telling me that if it was not for Leinster or Munster, Sky would never have purchased the Pro12 rights, then I have Irish people telling me that the Pro12 is not even popular in Ireland. FFS, then why is Sky only buying the rights because of the Irish teams, can you not see the hypocrisy ?

No you would rather make things up, and say things I have not said to suit your agenda.

No wonder the Irish broadcasters are not paying the going rate, the Pro12 is not even in the top 5 interests over there. It's not the Welsh/WRU holding the league back, it's the attitudes of our partners towards the league that is holding us back.

LD, when the Welsh Regions go off on a solo run (it seems) and sell off their rights to BBC Wales, why would the Scots or Irish pay a premium to something that all Scots & Irish viewers get. It would be particularly hard for other public service broadcasters to justify buying rights that is already available on FTA. It must be particularly annoying for the Scots as obviously the Welsh have 'bagged' the BBC.

Sky know what they can do with the Irish teams as they have seen what has happened with the Heineken Cup. Sky did say they were interested in developing the league you know, but I imagine that will be down to getting exclusive rights to it to make it a worthwhile investment.

BBC Wales have been involved from early days in broadcasting the league. They've been the best committed broadcaster in fairness. But their interest is in their territory for which they can bid for the rights. Ditto BBC NI and BBC Alba.

BBC Wales is not available FTA in Ireland as far as I know. It's only available on satellite PPV platforms. Nor is BBC Alba. BBC NI is.

Celtic Rugby negotiates the TV deals for the PRO12. Not the individual unions.

The terrestrial companies can only bid for the territories they cover. The going rate is whatever the broadcasters in that territory are willing to pay.

If you compare budget spends between say BBC Wales and TG4, TG4 has a budget of approx €47m. (2013) BBC Wales has a budget of approx £156 (2014) which also covers part of S4C's programming costs and Welsh radio. S4C continues to receive separately £76m from the BBC Trust in addition to programming provided to it by BBC Wales.

In short, BBC Wales and S4C have a lot more moolah to spend on regional sports programming.

Irish Londoner wrote:

If private ownership is the answer where are the owners going to the WRU, "can you please back out, we want to run the team ourselves" ?

I'm pretty sure that's the entire reason they went to war with the WRU in the last 8 years:

"Proposals were being put forward for an alternative competition with increased revenue for all participants, one that had the support of RRW and all the other independent clubs but had effectively been blocked by the WRU and the other host Unions – interestingly other than the RFU who were apparently supportive of the position taken by their member clubs as it would mean them losing control of the club/provincial/regional game. Is it right to block privately owned businesses from controlling their own destinies?"

http://prorugbywales.com/q-a/

Even the English clubs take funding from the RFU, in fact they are dependent on it in many cases to balance the books.

Most of that is payment for player access no? i.e. The RFU paying for it's own supply chain?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Exactly. Matt O'Connor wins the league but still got the sack. None of the fans places much store on the Pro12.

This one is a keeper after all the bull you've written about how seriously the Welsh view the PrO'12.

No wonder Ireland can't generate a decent TV contract.

Irish tv doesn't seem to be bothered about sport anymore tbh. I mean we even offloaded half the GAA games of to SKY and are now giving EIR sport Rugby world cup games. Our tv licence certainly isn't going towards what it should be.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Its a fact about the GAA - the League is used as a warmup for the All Ireland Championship.
Leinster tried hard to win the league one year,

That's complete horse, dog and pony schidt.

Leinster tried hard to win the League EVERY year since Gary Ella in 03/04. They have only finished outside the top 3 ONCE in the intervening 12 seasons (And that was last year) The 2 defeats to the Ospreys were hard to take especially the 2nd one (the week after the All Ireland Final in Twickenham) where we were pipped at the death.

Just coz Munster couldn't be arsed a lot of the time don't make up some tenuous bullschidt from Gaa that covers the whole Island of Ireland.

Leinster have tried to win the league every year but it has always played second fiddle to Europe, I think that's what Sine was alluding to. Leinster's coaches have always been judged by how they did in Europe.

Exactly. Matt O'Connor wins the league but still got the sack. None of the fans places much store on the Pro12.

More Horseschidt. MOC got the sack weeks after he lost a Euro semi in extra time to the eventual winners but came 5th in the league. (as I said the only time that we have been outside the top 3 in 12 seasons) We were a few inches away from a Euro final with a Gopperth dropper.

Only the most casual of Leinster fans "don't place much store" on the league. I would guess Ulster too. Take a trip over to Galway and take the temperature of a few Connacht fans on how they feel about the league right now......

Trying to project stuff onto this situation from Gaa doesn't make it true. Only in your head.

Oh come on Enforcer the HC has always been king in this country by a country mile. Just take a look on the Leinster forum and look at how much more popular the Euorpean thread is compared to the Pro12 one. I like watching both and have been to fantastic games in both comps but I'll always go out of my way to see us play in Europe.

Re Rep Ireland tv.

Up until very recently you had RTÉ, TG4 and TV3. TV3 were irrelevant. They just showed American and British repeats, stupid soaps and had things like the Jeremy Kyle show infesting the airwaves.

RTÉ had some Celtic/Pro12 rugby down the years but they never fully invested. They prefer to pay fortunes of taxpayers money to people who talk Poopie. Its a cosy club if you're in it. They had every sport, they'll end up with nothing.

TG4 have been the best for showing rugby in Ireland. The commentary is in Irish gaelic which not everyone understands but they get decent viewing figures. They don't have a big budget though.

Things are changing now. TV3 has been bought by a foreign company, UTV Ireland is newish an Eir have set up a sports channel. TV3 showed the rugby world cup and have the rights for the 6 nations in a few years time. Eir sport is new and they have money. They're a bit like the BT of Ireland.

Next time the TV rights for the pro12 comes up for grabs it'll be between TV3, TG4 and Eir Sport.

The low TV money from Rep Ireland (not counting BBC NI) wasn't down to lack of interest but the TV stations having a lack of money and/or competition. Since BT Sport arrived, the English clubs are getting a lot more money than they got from sky.

The Pro12 also needs competition between TV stations to get a higher price from them. If the TV companies are not competing with each other for TV rights, the money got will be less than the value of the product. Sky are not paying much for the pro12 either because they don't have to... for now.

profitius wrote:Re Rep Ireland tv.

Up until very recently you had RTÉ, TG4 and TV3. TV3 were irrelevant. They just showed American and British repeats, stupid soaps and had things like the Jeremy Kyle show infesting the airwaves.

RTÉ had some Celtic/Pro12 rugby down the years but they never fully invested. They prefer to pay fortunes of taxpayers money to people who talk Poopie. Its a cosy club if you're in it. They had every sport, they'll end up with nothing.

TG4 have been the best for showing rugby in Ireland. The commentary is in Irish gaelic which not everyone understands but they get decent viewing figures. They don't have a big budget though.

Things are changing now. TV3 has been bought by a foreign company, UTV Ireland is newish an Eir have set up a sports channel. TV3 showed the rugby world cup and have the rights for the 6 nations in a few years time. Eir sport is new and they have money. They're a bit like the BT of Ireland.

Next time the TV rights for the pro12 comes up for grabs it'll be between TV3, TG4 and Eir Sport.

The low TV money from Rep Ireland (not counting BBC NI) wasn't down to lack of interest but the TV stations having a lack of money and/or competition. Since BT Sport arrived, the English clubs are getting a lot more money than they got from sky.

The Pro12 also needs competition between TV stations to get a higher price from them. If the TV companies are not competing with each other for TV rights, the money got will be less than the value of the product. Sky are not paying much for the pro12 either because they don't have to... for now.

Your last line is the most important one.  I posted details on changes in the Irish marketplace a little earlier in this thread, profitius - you may not have seen them.   TV3 was bought from Doughty Hanson by Liberty Global, the US Cable TV company, who also own Virgin Media who took over UPc network in Ireland.   They now have what they're calling a quad play - landline, mobile, broadband and online content.  UTV Ireland has also been bought out by the group as well in the last week - inevitable given their parlous finances, and Liberty has a 6% in ITV plc. TV3 now has routes into providing content to other markets.    

EirSport, with Setanta founder, Mickey O'Rourke at the helm, have bought out Setanta Sport, and have similar interests across mobile and broadband.  Certainly they could compete against TV3 for PRO12 and both have stated recently that they're interested.  EirSport have just bid successfully for RWC 2019 against TV3, and are covering the Womens RWC next year.   O'Rourke has the head start in having shown the league previously, and they will go for it.  

There is the possibility they could go for the bigger play and compete for the entire competition against Sky and/or local UK broadcasters and use their platform into the UK where they've been before to deliver.  Setanta also has previous experience of the US and Australian markets which might prove useful in the future in selling rights.    

TV3 now have big money behind them as well so they may go head-to-head on this if they think it's important to keep their foothold in the sports/rugby market having done RWC 2015 fairly successfully (despite the onerous ad breaks) and beaten RTE to the crown jewels on the Six Nations.

I think your comments on RTE Sport are fair, however, since they've lost out on the bidding for the Six Nations to TV3, they might consider going after the league instead to keep their presence.

Let's wait and see.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They blatently do pay the going rate or they wouldn't have secured the rights.

No they do not, they pay what they have left after they have given the rest for the rights of other sports. None of the other nations broadcasters pay anything near what the Welsh broadcasters pay, the going rate should be what the highest bid is.

So what was the highest bid then? Presumably it would take the sport completely to pay tv like sky?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They blatently do pay the going rate or they wouldn't have secured the rights.

No they do not, they pay what they have left after they have given the rest for the rights of other sports. None of the other nations broadcasters pay anything near what the Welsh broadcasters pay, the going rate should be what the highest bid is.

So what was the highest bid then? Presumably it would take the sport completely to pay tv like sky?

Here you go:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/bbc-wales-s4c-strike-new-7529242

From what I understand it is aver 3 times the amount Irish broadcasters pay, and way above what the Scottish and Italian broadcasters pay.

That's fantastic and has nothing to do with the point previously though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's fantastic and has nothing to do with the point previously though.

You are getting confused, like our Irish friends on here. People do not buy Sky Sports for the Pro12, they buy Sky Sports for a package of all different sports, mainly Premierships football.

Free to air channels by the Pro12 to get more people watching their channels, the Pro12 is not that popular in Ireland, thus the the broadcasters do not pay as much for the rights to air it.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's fantastic and has nothing to do with the point previously though.

You are getting confused, like our Irish friends on here. People do not buy Sky Sports for the Pro12, they buy Sky Sports for a package of all different sports, mainly Premierships football.

Free to air channels by the Pro12 to get more people watching their channels, the Pro12 is not that popular in Ireland, thus the the broadcasters do not pay as much for the rights to air it.

Do you have a link about how much the Irish & Scots pay?

As far as I can recall, the PRO12 earns 14m per annum. According to that article, Sky pay 5m & Wales TV 3m. Where is the other 6m coming from?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's fantastic and has nothing to do with the point previously though.

You are getting confused, like our Irish friends on here. People do not buy Sky Sports for the Pro12, they buy Sky Sports for a package of all different sports, mainly Premierships football.

Free to air channels by the Pro12 to get more people watching their channels, the Pro12 is not that popular in Ireland, thus the the broadcasters do not pay as much for the rights to air it.

Thus they are paying the going rate.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's fantastic and has nothing to do with the point previously though.

You are getting confused, like our Irish friends on here. People do not buy Sky Sports for the Pro12, they buy Sky Sports for a package of all different sports, mainly Premierships football.

Free to air channels by the Pro12 to get more people watching their channels, the Pro12 is not that popular in Ireland, thus the the broadcasters do not pay as much for the rights to air it.

I've not said they do. All I've said as you now seem to be agreeing with is that the going rate was paid. More money could be made if you all got together and sold collective rights. Thoise collective rights would likely go to Sky so you'd have no free to air rugby.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Exactly. Matt O'Connor wins the league but still got the sack. None of the fans places much store on the Pro12.

More Horseschidt. MOC got the sack weeks after he lost a Euro semi in extra time to the eventual winners but came 5th in the league. (as I said the only time that we have been outside the top 3 in 12 seasons) We were a few inches away from a Euro final with a Gopperth dropper.

Only the most casual of Leinster fans "don't place much store" on the league. I would guess Ulster too. Take a trip over to Galway and take the temperature of a few Connacht fans on how they feel about the league right now......

Trying to project stuff onto this situation from Gaa doesn't make it true. Only in your head.

Oh come on Enforcer the HC has always been king in this country by a country mile. Just take a look on the Leinster forum and look at how much more popular the Euorpean thread is compared to the Pro12 one. I like watching both and have been to fantastic games in both comps but I'll always go out of my way to see us play in Europe.

The issue is not whether Europe is more important to players and fans Of course it is. The issue is whether the fans and players care about the League.

The Euro comp had been there since the dawn of professionalism. The Celtic league was a bit of a joke for it's first few years. But it has gathered momentum since. With the changes in Europe pi$$ing off a lot of Irish fans and interest waning, the League has caught up very fast in the hearts and minds over the last few years especially.

Yes Munster fans have always had less respect for the league than the rest of us (Possibly players too?) Perhaps they thought they were too good for it? Who knows.

In most people's book Europe should always be more important, but the gap has narrowed a lot since the far off days when Munster were winning Euro cups and the league was just a distraction.

I really do find it repeat funny that the Irish part of the Pro12 is constantly in mourning (forced or otherwise by our pals across the water) about its gloomy weaknesses and shortcomings
- and yet the Scots seem to be having a ball and enjoying themselves in Pro12?  They're happy with themselves.
And we ourselves seem to be still pretty damn competitive in Pro12 terms.  I think all Provinces were showing signs of improvements through the last quarter of the season too which bodes well for an even better year on the field.  
We have a Connacht that has emerged as (hopefully) a real sustained force for rugby in the west, after having survived a possible extinction event some years back.
We have four sides into the Champs Cup (on ye olde Merit too!)
We have some pretty damn good coaches working with us that many other teams would be grateful to have working with them.

But here we are explaining why we're responsible for all that's wrong with Pro12; that we're not interested, that we don't pay our way, that the Welsh pay for Sky's interest in Ireland,  that Munster are going to become extinct, that nobody is ever going to pay back their bills, that we're the beggar boys and handbrake holders that are holding the Pro12 back from its true potential...

Hmmm...................  it's a good work of fiction.  But the truth of a 'stalling' Pro12 lies elsewhere.  Maybe the gloom will lift next season when the fire from the Welsh teams returns

St John The Enforcer wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Exactly. Matt O'Connor wins the league but still got the sack. None of the fans places much store on the Pro12.

More Horseschidt. MOC got the sack weeks after he lost a Euro semi in extra time to the eventual winners but came 5th in the league. (as I said the only time that we have been outside the top 3 in 12 seasons) We were a few inches away from a Euro final with a Gopperth dropper.

Only the most casual of Leinster fans "don't place much store" on the league. I would guess Ulster too. Take a trip over to Galway and take the temperature of a few Connacht fans on how they feel about the league right now......

Trying to project stuff onto this situation from Gaa doesn't make it true. Only in your head.

Oh come on Enforcer the HC has always been king in this country by a country mile. Just take a look on the Leinster forum and look at how much more popular the Euorpean thread is compared to the Pro12 one. I like watching both and have been to fantastic games in both comps but I'll always go out of my way to see us play in Europe.

The issue is not whether Europe is more important to players and fans Of course it is. The issue is whether the fans and players care about the League.

The Euro comp had been there since the dawn of professionalism. The Celtic league was a bit of a joke for it's first few years. But it has gathered momentum since. With the changes in Europe pi$$ing off a lot of Irish fans and interest waning, the League has caught up very fast in the hearts and minds over the last few years especially.

Yes Munster fans have always had less respect for the league than the rest of us (Possibly players too?) Perhaps they thought they were too good for it? Who knows.

In most people's book Europe should always be more important, but the gap has narrowed a lot since the far off days when Munster were winning Euro cups and the league was just a distraction.

Nope, just prioritised the Heineken Cup. Some players (because of their international commitments) would not feature as much in the league as they would in the Heineken Cup.

Sin é wrote:

Nope, just prioritised the Heineken Cup. Some players (because of their international commitments) would not feature as much in the league as they would in the Heineken Cup.

Yes because Leinster, Ulster and Connacht have no internationals. You're right that must be it.

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:Re Rep Ireland tv.

Up until very recently you had RTÉ, TG4 and TV3. TV3 were irrelevant. They just showed American and British repeats, stupid soaps and had things like the Jeremy Kyle show infesting the airwaves.

RTÉ had some Celtic/Pro12 rugby down the years but they never fully invested. They prefer to pay fortunes of taxpayers money to people who talk Poopie. Its a cosy club if you're in it. They had every sport, they'll end up with nothing.

TG4 have been the best for showing rugby in Ireland. The commentary is in Irish gaelic which not everyone understands but they get decent viewing figures. They don't have a big budget though.

Things are changing now. TV3 has been bought by a foreign company, UTV Ireland is newish an Eir have set up a sports channel. TV3 showed the rugby world cup and have the rights for the 6 nations in a few years time. Eir sport is new and they have money. They're a bit like the BT of Ireland.

Next time the TV rights for the pro12 comes up for grabs it'll be between TV3, TG4 and Eir Sport.

The low TV money from Rep Ireland (not counting BBC NI) wasn't down to lack of interest but the TV stations having a lack of money and/or competition. Since BT Sport arrived, the English clubs are getting a lot more money than they got from sky.

The Pro12 also needs competition between TV stations to get a higher price from them. If the TV companies are not competing with each other for TV rights, the money got will be less than the value of the product. Sky are not paying much for the pro12 either because they don't have to... for now.

Your last line is the most important one.  I posted details on changes in the Irish marketplace a little earlier in this thread, profitius - you may not have seen them.   TV3 was bought from Doughty Hanson by Liberty Global, the US Cable TV company, who also own Virgin Media who took over UPc network in Ireland.   They now have what they're calling a quad play - landline, mobile, broadband and online content.  UTV Ireland has also been bought out by the group as well in the last week - inevitable given their parlous finances, and Liberty has a 6% in ITV plc.  TV3 now has routes into providing content to other markets.    

EirSport, with Setanta founder, Mickey O'Rourke at the helm, have bought out Setanta Sport, and have similar interests across mobile and broadband.  Certainly they could compete against TV3 for PRO12 and both have stated recently that they're interested.  EirSport have just bid successfully for RWC 2019 against TV3, and are covering the Womens RWC next year.   O'Rourke has the head start in having shown the league previously, and they will go for it.  

There is the possibility they could go for the bigger play and compete for the entire competition against Sky and/or local UK broadcasters and use their platform into the UK where they've been before to deliver.  Setanta also has previous experience of the US and Australian markets which might prove useful in the future in selling rights.    

TV3 now have big money behind them as well so they may go head-to-head on this if they think it's important to keep their foothold in the sports/rugby market having done RWC 2015 fairly successfully (despite the onerous ad breaks) and beaten RTE to the crown jewels on the Six Nations.

I think your comments on RTE  Sport are fair, however, since they've lost out on the bidding for the Six Nations to TV3, they might consider going after the league instead to keep their presence.  

Let's wait and see.

Liberty Global are going to make broadcasting very interesting in Ireland (and globally). They want to develop content that is available globally, so for instance if their new broadcasting companies in Ireland acquire the rights to the PRO12, they would want to show them on their networks in the US & Canada!

The Chairman of Liberty Global is an Irish American called John Malone who has been buying up plenty of stuff in Ireland (a couple of hotels in Dublin and Limerick, a castle in Wicklow and Tony O'Reilly Castlemartyr estate). He is the biggest landowner in the US.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/john-malone-the-us-billionaire-buying-up-ireland-1.2109800

Fly would not like him though.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Nope, just prioritised the Heineken Cup. Some players (because of their international commitments) would not feature as much in the league as they would in the Heineken Cup.

Yes because Leinster, Ulster and Connacht have no internationals. You're right that must be it.

No. 1 to 10 were Munster players for most of the 00s.

You bring up a good point though. The IRFU started tightening the strings on Munster & Leinster around the time that Leinster were regularly filling the Aviva for their interpro & Hcup clash and sales of international tickets started dropping off.

They didn't want any of the Provinces to be more important than Ireland. There was certainly plenty of talk going around that Leinster would beat Ireland anyway.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They blatently do pay the going rate or they wouldn't have secured the rights.

No they do not, they pay what they have left after they have given the rest for the rights of other sports. None of the other nations broadcasters pay anything near what the Welsh broadcasters pay, the going rate should be what the highest bid is.

So what was the highest bid then? Presumably it would take the sport completely to pay tv like sky?

Here you go:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/bbc-wales-s4c-strike-new-7529242

From what I understand it is aver 3 times the amount Irish broadcasters pay, and way above what the Scottish and Italian broadcasters pay.

You keep talking about the going rate.  But you're leaving out the important bit - in that market/territory.

BCC Wales & S4C are paying for the Welsh market and 4 Welsh teams.  You'll notice that they have 13 matches each in the first 13 rounds this season either as sole broadcasters or joint broadcasting.  That's what their money pays for.

Sky pick the matches they want as primary broadcaster.  TG4 (3 teams) and BBC Alba (2 teams) and BBC Ni (1 team) have the remainder for their territories.  

The value of the market for TG4 is less than it is for BBC Wales/S4C.  BBC Wales/S4C have a combined budget of £260m approx compared to €45m for TG4.  

As noted above by myself and others, the market in ROI has changed since 2014, so there will be more competition on the next deal which should drive up the price. There is also the possibility that one of the Irish broadcasters could compete with Sky for the primary rights and exclude the local broadcasters completely.

Currently, the Welsh terriestrial monies go to the Welsh unions.  They're not going to give that up easily. So any new TV deal that might reduce the involvement of local broadcasters could reduce the amount of money for WRU.

Pot Hale wrote:
Currently, the Welsh terriestrial monies go to the Welsh unions.  They're not going to give that up easily. So any new TV deal that might reduce the involvement of local broadcasters could reduce the amount of money for WRU.

I thought the money goes into a central pot?

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
Currently, the Welsh terriestrial monies go to the Welsh unions.  They're not going to give that up easily. So any new TV deal that might reduce the involvement of local broadcasters could reduce the amount of money for WRU.

I thought the money goes into a central pot?

I understand it differently. The terrestrial monies are allocated by territory, the Sky monies are central and allocated by number of teams - 40/40/20.

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
Currently, the Welsh terriestrial monies go to the Welsh unions.  They're not going to give that up easily. So any new TV deal that might reduce the involvement of local broadcasters could reduce the amount of money for WRU.

I thought the money goes into a central pot?

I understand it differently.   The terrestrial monies are allocated by territory, the Sky monies are central and allocated by number of teams - 40/40/20.  

That changed in the last few years with the Sky contract I think

marty2086 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
Currently, the Welsh terriestrial monies go to the Welsh unions.  They're not going to give that up easily. So any new TV deal that might reduce the involvement of local broadcasters could reduce the amount of money for WRU.

I thought the money goes into a central pot?

I understand it differently.   The terrestrial monies are allocated by territory, the Sky monies are central and allocated by number of teams - 40/40/20.  

That changed in the last few years with the Sky contract I think

I think that WRU get more money overall because of the value of the BBC W monies. Maybe not 100%, but it's not proportionate. Which I think is fair.

So now you are changing what you think?

marty2086 wrote:So now you are changing what you think?

Yes - stunning development eh?

St John The Enforcer wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Exactly. Matt O'Connor wins the league but still got the sack. None of the fans places much store on the Pro12.

More Horseschidt. MOC got the sack weeks after he lost a Euro semi in extra time to the eventual winners but came 5th in the league. (as I said the only time that we have been outside the top 3 in 12 seasons) We were a few inches away from a Euro final with a Gopperth dropper.

Only the most casual of Leinster fans "don't place much store" on the league. I would guess Ulster too. Take a trip over to Galway and take the temperature of a few Connacht fans on how they feel about the league right now......

Trying to project stuff onto this situation from Gaa doesn't make it true. Only in your head.

Oh come on Enforcer the HC has always been king in this country by a country mile. Just take a look on the Leinster forum and look at how much more popular the Euorpean thread is compared to the Pro12 one. I like watching both and have been to fantastic games in both comps but I'll always go out of my way to see us play in Europe.

The issue is not whether Europe is more important to players and fans Of course it is. The issue is whether the fans and players care about the League.

The Euro comp had been there since the dawn of professionalism. The Celtic league was a bit of a joke for it's first few years. But it has gathered momentum since. With the changes in Europe pi$$ing off a lot of Irish fans and interest waning, the League has caught up very fast in the hearts and minds over the last few years especially.

Yes Munster fans have always had less respect for the league than the rest of us (Possibly players too?) Perhaps they thought they were too good for it? Who knows.

In most people's book Europe should always be more important, but the gap has narrowed a lot since the far off days when Munster were winning Euro cups and the league was just a distraction.

Then how did they beat us in the 2011 final in front of a packed Thomand park? This whole "players not caring about this and that competition" thing is BS, every player goes out to win every game they are involved with. Some players get more pumped up for some games more than others but that's the case in every sport. I'll always remember the joy on Dominic Ryan's face when he won the B&I cup with Leinster 'A' a couple of years ago and this is a guy who has played many times in Europe.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Then how did they beat us in the 2011 final in front of a packed Thomand park? This whole "players not caring about this and that competition" thing is BS, every player goes out to win every game they are involved with. Some players get more pumped up for some games more than others but that's the case in every sport. I'll always remember the joy on Dominic Ryan's face when he won the B&I cup with Leinster 'A' a couple of years ago and this is a guy who has played many times in Europe.

Because they were playing the European champs who had just been crowned the previous week in the best Euro final ever played (and they had been on the pi$$ for about half that week)

Munster deserved their win that day because the were not only the best team on the day but throughout the league that year.

I was in Thomond park that day and it was a great occasion. Munster said goodbye to one of their coaches who had gone from coaching to being carried onto the podium in a wheelchair in a few months. (Motor neuron disease)

How did they do in the liberty stadium the following year? Massive thrashing in a semi where they had little interest. Since then they have had 2 x 6th places another losing semi and final to Glasgow.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Then how did they beat us in the 2011 final in front of a packed Thomand park? This whole "players not caring about this and that competition" thing is BS, every player goes out to win every game they are involved with. Some players get more pumped up for some games more than others but that's the case in every sport. I'll always remember the joy on Dominic Ryan's face when he won the B&I cup with Leinster 'A' a couple of years ago and this is a guy who has played many times in Europe.

Because they were playing the European champs who had just been crowned the previous week in the best Euro final ever played (and they had been on the pi$$ for about half that week)

Munster deserved their win that day because the were not only the best team on the day but throughout the league that year.

I was in Thomond park that day and it was a great occasion. Munster said goodbye to one of their coaches who had gone from coaching to being carried onto the podium in a wheelchair in a few months. (Motor neuron disease)

How did they do in the liberty stadium the following year? Massive thrashing in a semi where they had little interest. Since then they have had 2 x 6th places another losing semi and final to Glasgow.

I'm not sure it was lack of interest that was the issue. Ospreys were much the better team at the time and at this stage Munster fans were calling for ROG to be dropped in favour of Keatley; which kinda shows where the Munster team was at that stage. Munster have been an average team for a very long time now, they've only a couple of very good performances in Europe to cling onto since 2011.

So far on this thread, The Future for the PRO 12 - Part 2 - USA Expansion, what has been discussed

Who currently generates what TV monies and how it is divided. Not very much on future deals.
An Anglo-Welsh League, and why the IRFU are holding this back
Munsters previous lack of interest in Pro 12 and decline
and some general sniding.

If you haven't read the previous 6 pages, this generally sums it up.

Back to the Future.

Let's start a totally new thread and do it all over again.