The Future for the PRO 12 - Part 2 - USA Expansion

First topic message reminder :

We've had the discussion on how does the PRO12 move forward for much of last season.

Towards the end of the season, PR012 CEO, Martin Anayi gave several media interviews on his own, and with PRO 12 chairman, Gerald Davies, on where the PRO12 needs to go to cope with changes in rugby within Six Nations and globally.

Anayi and Davies identified and acknowledged a number of the issues raised by PRO clubs CEOs and fans including increase in TV monies, match-day attendances, marketing, standard of refereeing, season structure and test window matches,  scheduling of season matches/kick-off times including Sunday games, European competitions, player welfare/concussion, growing "event" weekends, etc.

Anayi and Davies met with PRO12 CEOs over the last season to discuss issues and get feedback on a number of proposals that would mark out the future for the PRO 12 and its member unions.  

From various media interviews and reports - some unsubstantiated - a number of key decisions are being considered by PRO 12 and its 12 member clubs along with their representative organisations and unions.  In summary, these would appear to include:

• Changes to season scheduling to make it more accessible, consistent, and appealing to fans across the four unions territories starting from next season 2016/17.
  
• Further investment in a referee development programme to deal with issues/perceptions of bias and neutrality for league fixtures
  
• Stronger and more localised marketing and promotion of league games by the PRO12 and by the individual clubs to attract fans to games and make it more appealing to broadcasters.
  
• More promotion and stronger branding/marketing of games by TV partners
  
• Changing the structure of the league from home & away 22 games to a conference/pool structure that can accommodate more teams in the future from other unions/territories e.g. North America and South Africa, with East Coast of America being the first target to develop a franchise with operational and coaching expertise being provided by the four unions.
  
• Development of Big Event Weekends to drive crowd numbers, create a more appealing product for TV companies/sponsors, and generate more revenues for the PRO12
  
• Reduce number of games played during season and re-strucure so that no "league" games are played during the test windows in November and Feb/March
  
• Consequently, this would allow a greater proportion of league games to have test players involved and increase quality of product.
  
• During test windows, the PRO CEOs want rugby to continue, and a revised development competition is being proposed for these periods for development of academy and young players within squads not involved in test rugby.  This may involve changes to the British & Irish Cup and the Anglo-Wlesh Cup.  One report indicates that Premier Rugby may be interested in discussing the creation of a British & Irish development cup to replace the current AW Cup that would attract increased sponsorship and TV money than currently.
  

It's clear that changes need to occur for the PRO12.   The current structure and set-up is neither sufficient nor sustainable.   The most recent comments on this from the CEO of the IRFU in publishing their annual report indicate this clearly, and what changes need to occur.  He also commented on the plans to develop a franchise in the US.

The potential for the development of a B&I league has been regularly discussed on 606v2, but for the purposes of this topic, it's not being included as the Premiership has commitments for the next 6-7 years on its TV deals that would not countenance such a move.  

Feel free to comment/dispute/argue on what is being proposed - any errors are entirely mine.

Munchkin wrote:
Because the broadcasters are obviously not under any legal contractual obligation to do so. We have already covered this.

Then BBCW broadcast a live game at Cardiff.

The information should be in the public domain  What planet do you live on? Just another side step by you. I did say we are dealing in present day realities. We are dealing in facts here, and not simply your opinion of what you would like to see.

Right, ok, I'm living on a different planet because I'd like to know whether the reason we don't have TMOs at all B&I PrO'12 games is because the PrO'12 don't stipulate it or because the broadcasters won't facilitate it.

Fair enough, Munchkin. We must inhabit different planets if that kind of information shouldn't be made public to the supporters of the teams who play in the PrO'12. Me? I can't see a reason why it shouldn't be in the public domain.

munkian wrote:I've emailed the Pro12 regarding this - i.e is it a contractual obligation for broadcasters to provide TMOs for EVERY game ?

I've not said that its up to the pro12 to provide TMOs - I've said it would be ridiculous if TMOs weren't part of the broadcasters/Unions contract with Pro12.

I would think it has to be an obligation to provide the equipment, but it's the PRO12 who provide the TMO.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its not down to a lack of professionalism its down to a lack of available broadcasters and/or there not being one single broadcaster

Wrong.

It is down to the people in charge of our league to ensure that we have the same level of officiating across the board to ensure meritocracy.

Why should we be in a position where games are affected by the level of officiating ? We are in a world of rightly or wrongly awarded tries. Yellow cards, play acting, pen or no pen, try or no try, citing's, foul play, pushing the boundaries.

Why should one team benefit from having the rub of the green because a ref cannot refer to a TMO, yet another team can ? Leagues are defined by it. It's called professionalism, technology has become a big part of it as we move further into the 21st century. If we cannot keep up, we sink, we fall apart, we finish.

Is this a future you want for the Pro12 ? You are burying your head in the sand. You are quite happy to keep meandering along, whilst our competitors are getting better and better.

The league should be working with the unions, as it is in their best interests to work together, between the Pro12, WRU, IRFU,SRU,FIR I am sure we could find a solution to this, but no, you would all rather argue the point and put up with mediocrity rather than strive for change, and improvements.

Are you for real? The TMO does not guarantee the right decision, its a luxury not a necessity plenty of refs get it wrong

I've seen tries not given because the camera man was in the wrong position and the ref asked the wrong question assuming the technology would provide the answers

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Because the broadcasters are obviously not under any legal contractual obligation to do so. We have already covered this.

Then BBCW broadcast a live game at Cardiff.

The information should be in the public domain  What planet do you live on? Just another side step by you. I did say we are dealing in present day realities. We are dealing in facts here, and not simply your opinion of what you would like to see.

Right, ok, I'm living on a different planet because I'd like to know whether the reason we don't have TMOs at all B&I PrO'12 games is because the PrO'12 don't stipulate it or because the broadcasters won't facilitate it.

Fair enough, Munchkin. We must inhabit different planets if that kind of information shouldn't be made public to the supporters of the teams who play in the PrO'12. Me? I can't see a reason why it shouldn't be in the public domain.

No, that isn't what I said and, unless your comprehension isn't up to scratch, you know it. What I did say is that you're living on another planet if you think the details of the contract are going to be laid bare for all to see. It's a nice ideal, but it's not usually how things are done. It wouldn't bode well for any future negotiations with the same company if the PRO12 reps were to disclose such information.

marty2086 wrote:Are you for real? The TMO does not guarantee the right decision, its a luxury not a necessity plenty of refs get it wrong

I've seen tries not given because the camera man was in the wrong position and the ref asked the wrong question assuming the technology would provide the answers

Oh, so now you are not arguing the fact about having/not having TMO's and mic'd up refs. You have now moved onto the quality of said refs.

Whether they get the decision right or wrong, the fact that some games have them, and some do not, is the issue. We can argue over the quality of them until the cows come home. But the fact that we are in a position where the games are not equal is a fact you cannot deny.

Griff wrote:

This is the bit I'm on about though.  I reckon those views would not be ones of challenge but ones of agreement, had the calls for blanket use of TMOs across the league come from posters such as your good self, Fly.  Which makes the arguments back and forth bizarre.  Arguing against someone for the sake of arguing.  Or to put it another way, if Phil had come on saying that TMO use should vary by region, or whether a game was televised or not, then I think a lot of the same posters would argue for blanket approaches and standards across the league.  

How many times have I posted a line about Phil?  Serious question!  I honestly didn't know it was my 'thing'.

It's not your 'thing', Griff.    I debate many other things in here too besides Pro12 and Phil...but when Pro12 and Phil comes up - my hand goes up and I admit I get involved.  All I'm pointing out is that when I see you on the Pro12/Phil debates, your contribution is usually to say how pointed it is that guys here just seem to be against anything Phil says - even if it's constructive.  Your slice of the debate is always appealing for 'reason' rather than having people disagreeing simply to disagree.

That's fine.  But Phil is Phil.  Anyone .... even one of those newbies that he referred to a while back .... if they read through enough of Phil they'd realise two things.
One: the more crippled and unviable the Pro12 is painted as, the happier he is, the closer he feels to his Anglo/Welsh League or his grumbling second choice, a B&I League.  
Two: he is seldom seen on any other topic.  Pro12 - wots wrong with it and how it can never be fixed in my lifetime is his thang.

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:I've emailed the Pro12 regarding this - i.e is it a contractual obligation for broadcasters to provide TMOs for EVERY game ?

I've not said that its up to the pro12 to provide TMOs - I've said it would be ridiculous if TMOs weren't part of the broadcasters/Unions contract with Pro12.

I would think it has to be an obligation to provide the equipment, but it's the PRO12 who provide the TMO.

No, it is the chosen Union who provide the TMO.

Munchkin wrote:
No, that isn't what I said and, unless your comprehension isn't up to scratch, you know it. What I did say is that you're living on another planet if you think the details of the contract are going to be laid bare for all to see. It's a nice ideal, but it's not usually how things are done. It wouldn't bode well for any future negotiations with the same company if the PRO12 reps were to disclose such information.

I don't know why you highlighted in bold that selection when I went on to clarify it later on.

I think it would bode perfectly well for sponsors and broadcast partners if the PrO'12 expected minimum standards of facilities, so I disagree with your assessment of it.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Are you for real? The TMO does not guarantee the right decision, its a luxury not a necessity plenty of refs get it wrong

I've seen tries not given because the camera man was in the wrong position and the ref asked the wrong question assuming the technology would provide the answers

Oh, so now you are not arguing the fact about having/not having TMO's and mic'd up refs. You have now moved onto the quality of said refs.

Whether they get the decision right or wrong, the fact that some games have them, and some do not, is the issue. We can argue over the quality of them until the cows come home. But the fact that we are in a position where the games are not equal is a fact you cannot deny.

No that was your argument, you said its not fair that some get the rub of the green Im merely pointing out that the quality isn't guaranteed either way

But its a more level playing field, yes ?

A Spirit Level? Surely they're not too expensive? Surely, the Pro12 can fork out for a few of them? What say you all? Agree or Disagree?

Got to say I agree with Phil/LD that there should be a TMO at all games, and there should be some sort of explanation forthcoming as to why there wasn't one this time - are there usually TMO's/camera facilities at non-televised games or is this just a one off?
If it's a one off, end of story and move on, otherwise maybe there does need to be a look at providing TMO's all the games, I suggest the issue may be cost, particularly in Italy so a decision should be made that no games in Italy have TMO's regardless of coverage, so the problem is sorted that way, after all a TMO decision is just as likely to hurt the home team as the visitors.
Given the issues around referees sending things upstairs far too often maybe a couple of games where they have to exercise their judgement without help may be good for their development ?

Problem is, refs for the lower table teams are usually more inexperienced - and when they ref at places with no TMO then their decisions are often over influenced by the home crowd.

And yes, this is normally in Italy, used to happen in Craggy Island too.

marty2086 wrote:No that was your argument, you said its not fair that some get the rub of the green Im merely pointing out that the quality isn't guaranteed either way

No.

I think you might need to go and have another skim over my post.I said why should one team benefit from having the rub of the green. For proof:-

LordDowlais wrote:Why should one team benefit from having the rub of the green because a ref cannot refer to a TMO, yet another team can ?

But I think you knew this, as I do not think you are stupid. I think you fully understand my point I am trying to make, it just suits you to disagree with me on here, it must give you a kick.

We either embrace technology and professionalism and have the same level of officiating across the board. Or we hark back to the amateur era, and do not use any technology across the board. Everyone should get the same treatment. Otherwise the league is a farce.

I know which one I would prefer.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
No, that isn't what I said and, unless your comprehension isn't up to scratch, you know it. What I did say is that you're living on another planet if you think the details of the contract are going to be laid bare for all to see. It's a nice ideal, but it's not usually how things are done. It wouldn't bode well for any future negotiations with the same company if the PRO12 reps were to disclose such information.

I don't know why you highlighted in bold that selection when I went on to clarify it later on.

I think it would bode perfectly well for sponsors and broadcast partners if the PrO'12 expected minimum standards of facilities, so I disagree with your assessment of it.

Because I didn't say the bit in bold. Comprende?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:I've emailed the Pro12 regarding this - i.e is it a contractual obligation for broadcasters to provide TMOs for EVERY game ?

I've not said that its up to the pro12 to provide TMOs - I've said it would be ridiculous if TMOs weren't part of the broadcasters/Unions contract with Pro12.

I would think it has to be an obligation to provide the equipment, but it's the PRO12 who provide the TMO.

No, it is the chosen Union who provide the TMO.

Ok, so it's the Union.

Munchkin, I must ask you this, even if it is for the sake of my own sanity, but are you happy/comfortable with the fact that some games will have mic'd up refs and a TMO, and other games do not ?

The people who are constantly complaining about the pro12, want it to fail. Constant bitvhing and moaning is far more damaging than a TMO missing.


TMOs are a recent innovation and going by the logic of these people we can dismiss any historic match that had no TMO (the vast majority of matches in rugby history) because of unfairness. Because the TMOs are the most important match officials and they're never wrong.


Maybe we should have TMOs at all levels of rugby starting at U7s.

profitius wrote:The people who are constantly complaining about the pro12, want it to fail. Constant bitvhing and moaning is far more damaging than a TMO missing.


TMOs are a recent innovation and going by the logic of these people we can dismiss any historic match that had no TMO (the vast majority of matches in rugby history) because of unfairness. Because the TMOs are the most important match officials and they're never wrong.


Maybe we should have TMOs at all levels of rugby starting at U7s.

I will go on record, again, and say that I do not want a B&I league. I am happy to have the Pro12. But not in it's current state. I do find it typical on here though, that the Irish supporters are dead set against changing anything.

What are you so apposed to ? What is causing all this angst ?

I want a Pro12 that is at least showing it is trying to keep up with it's competitors. Others on here want to keep meandering along and expecting everything to be rosy. The way the Pro12 is going, it is destined for failure, and the latest nonsense with some games having a far superior level of officiating compared to others is a farce. I cannot believe why the Irish supporters on here do not understand this. I was filled with optimism after hearing the news Martin Anayi announced a few weeks ago, but that all seems like bollox and hot air now.

The argument, such as it has developed, is that if one game in the Pro12 has TMO available then in theory at least all of them should have it. Level playing field. All those in favour say AYE?

Aye from me.

The practicality of the debate is that at present this does not happen for reasons that seems to lead reasons of viability due to expenditure.

What 'Should' happen usually has to compromise itself into what 'Does' happen.

Pro12 players SHOULD get the same rate of pay as Top14. Overall, it doesn't happen. Live with it.

If the TMO is absent in any given game, both sides have to live with it - neither picks up an advantage. Fair game in as much as any game can be, given that even TMO decisions here are classed as outright mistakes at best or downright bias at worst.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:No that was your argument, you said its not fair that some get the rub of the green Im merely pointing out that the quality isn't guaranteed either way

No.

I think you might need to go and have another skim over my post.I said why should one team benefit from having the rub of the green. For proof:-

LordDowlais wrote:Why should one team benefit from having the rub of the green because a ref cannot refer to a TMO, yet another team can ?

But I think you knew this, as I do not think you are stupid. I think you fully understand my point I am trying to make, it just suits you to disagree with me on here, it must give you a kick.

We either embrace technology and professionalism and have the same level of officiating across the board. Or we hark back to the amateur era, and do not use any technology across the board. Everyone should get the same treatment. Otherwise the league is a farce.

I know which one I would prefer.

Of course I knew it I fracking referenced it

LordDowlais wrote:

I want a Pro12 that is at least showing it is trying to keep up with it's competitors. Others on here want to keep meandering along and expecting everything to be rosy. The way the Pro12 is going, it is destined for failure, and the latest nonsense with some games having a far superior level of officiating compared to others is a farce. I cannot believe why the Irish supporters on here do not understand this. I was filled with optimism after hearing the news Martin Anayi announced a few weeks ago, but that all seems like bollox and hot air now.

Melodramatic. Why is your attitude through each Pro12 year that of a man waiting for Armageddon? Panic, disbelief, edginess, anxiety attacks, worry.......................

Much too much Chicken Licken.

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, I must ask you this, even if it is for the sake of my own sanity, but are you happy/comfortable with the fact that some games will have mic'd up refs and a TMO, and other games do not ?

You should know my thoughts on the use of TMO's by now. I'm not a big fan. Having said that; if we are going to use TMO's then all games should have them. I wasn't arguing anything different. The issue, as I see it, is in games not being broadcast to television. If those games that aren't broadcast live, but are recorded for highlights, have the quality of camera coverage necessary for TMO, then a solution should be found to facilitate a TMO. However, I don't understand the costs involved, or any surrounding legal issue's.

The use of TMO isn't the biggest issue for me. People complain when they are there, people complain when they aren't. The bigger issue for me is the fact that some games are not broadcast live. I think that's poor, and something that can easily be addressed. If Ulster can provide a live feed with commentary, during one of their pre-season home games, I'm absolutely sure that Treviso could do the same for their fans. At least until another broadcaster is found.

SecretFly wrote:Pro12 players SHOULD get the same rate of pay as Top14. Overall, it doesn't happen. Live with it.

Not true though and should not be an indicator. A lot of Pro12 players, are payed a hell of a lot more than players in the TOP14 due to the unions paying the player.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:No that was your argument, you said its not fair that some get the rub of the green Im merely pointing out that the quality isn't guaranteed either way

No.

I think you might need to go and have another skim over my post.I said why should one team benefit from having the rub of the green. For proof:-

LordDowlais wrote:Why should one team benefit from having the rub of the green because a ref cannot refer to a TMO, yet another team can ?

But I think you knew this, as I do not think you are stupid. I think you fully understand my point I am trying to make, it just suits you to disagree with me on here, it must give you a kick.

We either embrace technology and professionalism and have the same level of officiating across the board. Or we hark back to the amateur era, and do not use any technology across the board. Everyone should get the same treatment. Otherwise the league is a farce.

I know which one I would prefer.

Of course I knew it I fracking referenced it

Then why are you arguing then ? Why miss quote me ?

You must really get a kick out of p1ssing against the wind on here.

So you agree then ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:No that was your argument, you said its not fair that some get the rub of the green Im merely pointing out that the quality isn't guaranteed either way

No.

I think you might need to go and have another skim over my post.I said why should one team benefit from having the rub of the green. For proof:-

LordDowlais wrote:Why should one team benefit from having the rub of the green because a ref cannot refer to a TMO, yet another team can ?

But I think you knew this, as I do not think you are stupid. I think you fully understand my point I am trying to make, it just suits you to disagree with me on here, it must give you a kick.

We either embrace technology and professionalism and have the same level of officiating across the board. Or we hark back to the amateur era, and do not use any technology across the board. Everyone should get the same treatment. Otherwise the league is a farce.

I know which one I would prefer.

Of course I knew it I fracking referenced it

Then why are you arguing then ? Why miss quote me ?

You must really get a kick out of p1ssing against the wind on here.

So you agree then ?

You child are a lost cause, theres no amount of explaining that can get through to you

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pro12 players SHOULD get the same rate of pay as Top14. Overall, it doesn't happen. Live with it.

Not true though and should not be an indicator. A lot of Pro12 players, are payed a hell of a lot more than players in the TOP14 due to the unions paying the player.

It is true. What percentage of Pro12 players are paid as high as the Average (not highest) Top14 player?

There is NOT parity between Leagues on salary scales - will you even agree with that point? And if you do, that's back to the point - the game is full of inequalities, from the size of grounds, to training facilities, from bloody weather from week to week. A non TMO game is a non-TMO game for both sides - that makes it a fair game at least on the non-TMO bit

Munchkin wrote:You should know my thoughts on the use of TMO's by now. I'm not a big fan. Having said that; if we are going to use TMO's then all games should have them. I wasn't arguing anything different. The issue, as I see it, is in games not being broadcast to television. If those games that aren't broadcast live, but are recorded for highlights, have the quality of camera coverage necessary for TMO, then a solution should be found to facilitate a TMO. However, I don't understand the costs involved, or any surrounding legal issue's.

OK, at last, you are starting to agree, and you are not arguing for the sake of it. I also am not a big fan of using the TMO, but it is here, and the technology should be used, especially in the world we are in now. How many TV's and camera's do you need for TMO's, we only watch one in the house, there is no reason the ref could not use the big screen at games to make sure, I don't know, that is another debate.

But if the technology is there for one game, then it MUST be there for another.

Munchkin wrote:The use of TMO isn't the biggest issue for me. People complain when they are there, people complain when they aren't. The bigger issue for me is the fact that some games are not broadcast live. I think that's poor, and something that can easily be addressed. If Ulster can provide a live feed with commentary, during one of their pre-season home games, I'm absolutely sure that Treviso could do the same for their fans. At least until another broadcaster is found.

Again I agree, but this all come's down to the professionalism of our league, and sadly it is light years behind our competitors. The Pro12 should be working with the unions to provide the extra impetus needed to not only catch up with the professionalism in other leagues, but to emulate it. It is in the best interests of the league, the unions and the teams involved to reach these standards.

SecretFly wrote:The argument, such as it has developed, is that if one game in the Pro12 has TMO available then in theory at least all of them should have it.  Level playing field.  All those in favour say AYE?

Aye from me.

The practicality of the debate is that at present this does not happen for reasons that seems to lead reasons of viability due to expenditure.  

What 'Should' happen usually has to compromise itself into what 'Does' happen.  

Pro12 players SHOULD get the same rate of pay as Top14.  Overall, it doesn't happen.  Live with it.  

If the TMO is absent in any given game, both sides have to live with it - neither picks up an advantage.  Fair game in as much as any game can be, given that even TMO decisions here are classed as outright mistakes at best or downright bias at worst.

Well said. PRO12 does not have the same rugby viewing population/broadcasting contracts/income as T14/Aviva. So we have issues with our "product" that they don't have (as money simply solves it) and TMO at every match is one of them. So, how do we increase income for pro12? Well, more fans can support their team as a start. A new broadcasting deal would be nice. But without access to larger broadcast population centres it will be very difficult. It always comes back to that.

LordDowlais wrote:Again I agree, but this all come's down to the professionalism of our league, and sadly it is light years behind our competitors. The Pro12 should be working with the unions to provide the extra impetus needed to not only catch up with the professionalism in other leagues, but to emulate it. It is in the best interests of the league, the unions and the teams involved to reach these standards.

What is the obstacle to those standards? political or financial? And if financial how do you propose solving it?

marty2086 wrote:You child are a lost cause, theres no amount of explaining that can get through to you

Well, if you could debate like an adult, instead of just arguing for the sake of arguing, then we could get somewhere. You, are just getting kicks out of arguing.

What are you trying to explain to me ? What are you trying to get through to me ?

I know, my point of view, and that is technology or no technology. One or the other makes a mockery out of our league.

wolfball wrote:What is the obstacle to those standards? political or financial? And if financial how do you propose solving it?

Well, that is for the Pro12, the unions and the teams involved to sort out. But if I was running the Pro12, I would be working with everybody involved for their best interests. If that meant trying to convince the unions to foot some of the bill to make the league more professional, then so be it.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:You should know my thoughts on the use of TMO's by now. I'm not a big fan. Having said that; if we are going to use TMO's then all games should have them. I wasn't arguing anything different. The issue, as I see it, is in games not being broadcast to television. If those games that aren't broadcast live, but are recorded for highlights, have the quality of camera coverage necessary for TMO, then a solution should be found to facilitate a TMO. However, I don't understand the costs involved, or any surrounding legal issue's.

OK, at last, you are starting to agree, and you are not arguing for the sake of it. I also am not a big fan of using the TMO, but it is here, and the technology should be used, especially in the world we are in now. How many TV's and camera's do you need for TMO's, we only watch one in the house, there is no reason the ref could not use the big screen at games to make sure, I don't know, that is another debate.

But if the technology is there for one game, then it MUST be there for another.

Munchkin wrote:The use of TMO isn't the biggest issue for me. People complain when they are there, people complain when they aren't. The bigger issue for me is the fact that some games are not broadcast live. I think that's poor, and something that can easily be addressed. If Ulster can provide a live feed with commentary, during one of their pre-season home games, I'm absolutely sure that Treviso could do the same for their fans. At least until another broadcaster is found.

Again I agree, but this all come's down to the professionalism of our league, and sadly it is light years behind our competitors. The Pro12 should be working with the unions to provide the extra impetus needed to not only catch up with the professionalism in other leagues, but to emulate it. It is in the best interests of the league, the unions and the teams involved to reach these standards.

Starting to agree with you? The only thing I disagreed with you was your claim that the Treviso game was broadcast live. It wasn't. I will always agree with you if I believe you are correct, and I will not offer a contrary view for the sake of it.

I agree with the remainder of your first paragraph, but not the conclusion of your second. It isn't the professionalism of the league that is in question, but the availability of broadcasters to broadcast live games for all involved. I believe that's something that probably will happen, eventually.

LordDowlais wrote:

wolfball wrote:What is the obstacle to those standards? political or financial? And if financial how do you propose solving it?

Well, that is for the Pro12, the unions and the teams involved to sort out. But if I was running the Pro12, I would be working with everybody involved for their best interests. If that meant trying to convince the unions to foot some of the bill to make the league more professional, then so be it.

That's what's happening? No?

Year after year trying to keep a show on the road that is right smack against two Monsters of the genre (Top14 and AP).  You can't wish those two away.  You can't pretend they don't have a captive National audience each of some 50something million people.  You cannot deny that the Pro12 natural National based audience is much smaller and therefore commands much smaller contracts.  SKY or any other Broadcaster WILL NOT pay as much for Pro12 as they would/will for AP or Top14.  It ain't going to happen.... not today, not tomorrow.
But you cannot declare that the people behind Pro12 are not working their socks off to find and sustain a model that might at least Survive in such a merciless climate.  You belittle the US angle that seems to be now getting talked down - so?  So what?  It's one of the ideas being looked at behind the scenes.  If it doesn't work, so be it.  It was an attempt. I'm sure other ideas are still rumbling.

If you want the Pro12 to survive, and you say you do, well then at least appreciate the tough, tough conditions it is trying to operate in. And do more than appreciate them - admit to them.  It will always struggle against the big Two.  But struggling is no reason to offer a White Flag.  Seems you keep hoisting one each year.

SecretFly wrote:If you want the Pro12 to survive, and you say you do, well then at least appreciate the tough, tough conditions it is trying to operate in. And do more than appreciate them - admit to them. It will always struggle against the big Two. But struggling is no reason to offer a White Flag. Seems you keep hoisting one each year.

Who is hoisting the white flag ?

I am demanding more, I am demanding better, I admit there is an almost impossible battle with the other leagues, but it is a battle we can fight.

I think people are forgetting the population of Italy, what is it 60 million ? Yes I know football is king, but it is also king in England and France, between the four nations in the Pro12 there is just as much potential as there is in the other countries, the Pro12 hierarchy should be doing all they can to realise this, I have said this from day one.

But the level of officiating in the Pro12 is a serious weight around the neck of it. The non use of technology in some games, and the use of it in others is another reason for non Pro12 fans to pick holes. This is more damaging to the league than any other issues that crop up.

We need to embrace change, we need to demand improvements, not just be content with meandering along hoping everything will be alright on the night.

I've found this thread fascinating.

================
http://www.pro12rugby.com/competition-rules/

8.1. A TMO shall be appointed for any match in the Guinness PRO12 that is being broadcast live.

===============
If no tv broadcaster has picked up the match for live broadcast, there'd be no Television Match Official as the broadcaster is either 'a' not there or 'b' only there with cameras to record and has no on site control facilities for live editing or replay for the officials to avail of.

This has always been the case even back in the Rabo and older Celtic league days. Random away games in Italy fall foul of this... as do some fixtures when Italian sides visit these shores (I think I remember a Leinster v Zebre game not too long ago wasn't broadcast live and didn't have TMO it).

Broadcasters pay for rights to produce and/or broadcast a certain number of matches.

Some are exclusive, some are shared.

The Italian home games are meant to be covered by an Italian broadcaster. If there's no broadcaster, then it's not possible for a TMO to do his job.

If a game is recorded with multi-cameras and is shown online, then a Television Match Official could be at the game since he would have access to a facility to replay images when necessary. Presence of a TMO at a game is the responsibility of the PRO 12 and relevant unions in providing the personnel to do this. It's nothing to do with the broadcaster.

It's not about whether broadcasters such as TG4 or other broadcasters can afford it. Replay facilities can be provided from the OB truck to the TMO if he is present.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I've found this thread fascinating.

================
http://www.pro12rugby.com/competition-rules/

8.1. A TMO shall be appointed for any match in the Guinness PRO12 that is being broadcast live.

===============
If no tv broadcaster has picked up the match for live broadcast, there'd be no Television Match Official as the broadcaster is either 'a' not there or 'b' only there with cameras to record and has no on site control facilities for live editing or replay for the officials to avail of.

This has always been the case even back in the Rabo and older Celtic league days.  Random away games in Italy fall foul of this... as do some fixtures when Italian sides visit these shores (I think I remember a Leinster v Zebre game not too long ago wasn't broadcast live and didn't have TMO it).

And we have STILL not moved on. As the environment becomes more professional then so should the league, this is another example of the dragging of the feet attitude towards the change in trend that has seen other leagues go from strength to strength, and our league rest on it's laurels, and we wonder why we are falling behind ? How long ago was this agreed ? Why has it not been looked at ? These are questions, as paying fans, we are all entitled to ask.

Pot Hale wrote:Broadcasters pay for rights to produce and/or broadcast a certain number of matches.

Some are exclusive, some are shared.  

The Italian home games are meant to be covered by an Italian broadcaster.  If there's no broadcaster, then it's not possible for a TMO to do his job.  

If a game is recorded with multi-cameras and is shown online, then a Television Match Official could be at the game since he would have access to a facility to replay images when necessary.  Presence of a TMO at a game is the responsibility of the PRO 12 and relevant unions in providing the personnel to do this.  It's nothing to do with the broadcaster.  

It's not about whether broadcasters such as TG4 or other broadcasters can afford it.   Replay facilities can be provided from the OB truck to the TMO if he is present.

So you agree then ?

It's not the broadcasters fault, but the league, and perhaps the unions, another instance of ineptitude from the Pro12. Our league is being held back.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:If you want the Pro12 to survive, and you say you do, well then at least appreciate the tough, tough conditions it is trying to operate in. And do more than appreciate them - admit to them.  It will always struggle against the big Two.  But struggling is no reason to offer a White Flag.  Seems you keep hoisting one each year.

Who is hoisting the white flag ?

I am demanding more, I am demanding better, I admit there is an almost impossible battle with the other leagues, but it is a battle we can fight.

I think people are forgetting the population of Italy, what is it 60 million ? Yes I know football is king, but it is also king in England and France, between the four nations in the Pro12 there is just as much potential as there is in the other countries, the Pro12 hierarchy should be doing all they can to realise this, I have said this from day one.

But the level of officiating in the Pro12 is a serious weight around the neck of it. The non use of technology in some games, and the use of it in others is another reason for non Pro12 fans to pick holes. This is more damaging to the league than any other issues that crop up.

We need to embrace change, we need to demand improvements, not just be content with meandering along hoping everything will be alright on the night.

So, if (as you state in your initial reply to me) that it is at least partly a financial issue, you have expressed two potential solutions. 1, more union investment in the PRO12 and 2, get more money out of Italy.

For 1, that sounds a lot like a contradiction of your previous posiitions, but I may be misremembering so can you clarify that you think more direct union investment in the PRO12 is necessary? and for 2, how do you think we can expand Italian interest in the pro12?

Its all very well to say X is bad. Its even the easiest thing in the world to do. Saying how you will solve the problem of X is a whole other thing, and what an actual debate should be about.

LordDowlais wrote:

Who is hoisting the white flag ?

I am demanding more, I am demanding better, I admit there is an almost impossible battle with the other leagues, but it is a battle we can fight.

I think people are forgetting the population of Italy, what is it 60 million ? Yes I know football is king, but it is also king in England and France, between the four nations in the Pro12 there is just as much potential as there is in the other countries, the Pro12 hierarchy should be doing all they can to realise this, I have said this from day one.

But the level of officiating in the Pro12 is a serious weight around the neck of it. The non use of technology in some games, and the use of it in others is another reason for non Pro12 fans to pick holes. This is more damaging to the league than any other issues that crop up.

We need to embrace change, we need to demand improvements, not just be content with meandering along hoping everything will be alright on the night.

1. Who is hoisting a white flag?  The guys that constantly use OTT language to describe the problems?  A farce, a joke, unprofessional, stupid, idiotic..... ; that kind of attitude in discussions is a white flag.  There's not a whole lot to be said about a product that gets the hairdryer thrown at it as often as Pro12 gets it in the neck on these threads.  That to me is a wilful white flag - it endlessly highlights the problems whilst mostly skirting over the real obstacles.  It's a free advertisement for a B&I League.  

2. The battle is being fought.  It's an ongoing process and a tough one.  Productivity needs cool heads churning in the background, not hot heads turning up to meetings forever shouting about "nothing getting done!"  I'd assume Pro12 bosses are strategising some years ahead as I'm sure our friendly neighbours (both Leagues to the right) aren't finished in their desire to carve up European rugby in their image.

3. I know all about Italy's 60 million potential.  I'm one of the few who keep bringing it up whenever the 'throw 'em out' brigade get going.  However, reality hits again and nobody could say they are close to being a sufficient factor in any broadcasting negotiating position yet.  So reality bites again but yes.... something to be working on.  I've even said the Pro12 final should be given to Italy for five or so years on the trot.  Make that final weekend theirs so that their marketing people might be in a position to sell casuals something special.  Get the product more firmly placed in their region for a time to give them a sense of ownership.

4. The non-Pro12 fans are picking holes because they have a political objective - ending Pro12 - not improving it - ending it.  They don't want to watch it because they have their heart fixated on a different version of Utopia of the future.  They want their old pals England back in the mix.  There is no way any of the other Nations can don any disguise that will work to satisfy that basic need.  The English dimension is the fever, the goal, the trinket.  You sometimes play too easily into their hands.
BTW, they have a right to want what they want.  They have a right to dream of Welsh and English clubs playing against each other every year.  That's their dream.  But that makes Pro12 an enemy.  It doesn't matter how much it improves - the critics don't want to be wooed, they want Pro12 gone.

What amuse me about the ones who want an end to the Pro12 and dream of some English welsh super league, is they overlook one simple fact.
Why would the english want them?
They say history for one thing, but fail to realise the PRL men don't give a flying Frick about history.
They say bt sport want it? Well I don't think they do.

If the PRL men want new teams they will look over the sea to France. Huge tv contracts already. Established teams with big following. And a group of owners with the same mindset. Money money money.
An Anglo French 2 tier super league.
That will work well for the rest of us

From 7 Sept 2016:

"PRO12 told Sportcal on Tuesday evening: “We’re still in negotiations with a broadcaster in Italy, however, for this weekend, the Benetton Treviso v Ulster Rugby game will be broadcast on BBC Northern Ireland and online in Italy on RugbyChannel.it.”

DMAX, the free-to-air digital terrestrial and satellite channel owned by Discovery Communications, holds the rights in Italy to the Six Nations and Italy’s autumn test internationals, and Discovery is understood to be interested in the PRO12 rights, although no agreement has been struck at this stage.

PRO12 said that it expects an update on the rights situation next week."

This coming weekend, the matches and broadcasters look like this:

Dragons v Glasgow - BBC W - Fri 7.35pm
Connacht v Edinburgh - TG4 - Fri 7.35pm
Munster v Zebre - Not being televised - Sat 5pm
Ulster v Ospreys - Sky sports - Sat 18.30
Cardiff v Leinster - S4C and a feed to TG4 - Sat 19.35
Treviso v Scarlets - not being televised - Sat 8.05pm

Evidently, not all the home matches have been taken up by Sky/domestic broadcasters, most likely when two-three home matches are occurring in their territory, and they don't have the broadcast slots for all of them, plus competing matches on other channels.

LordDowlais wrote:

profitius wrote:The people who are constantly complaining about the pro12, want it to fail. Constant bitvhing and moaning is far more damaging than a TMO missing.


TMOs are a recent innovation and going by the logic of these people we can dismiss any historic match that had no TMO (the vast majority of matches in rugby history) because of unfairness. Because the TMOs are the most important match officials and they're never wrong.


Maybe we should have TMOs at all levels of rugby starting at U7s.

I will go on record, again, and say that I do not want a B&I league. I am happy to have the Pro12. But not in it's current state. I do find it typical on here though, that the Irish supporters are dead set against changing anything.

What are you so apposed to ? What is causing all this angst ?

I want a Pro12 that is at least showing it is trying to keep up with it's competitors. Others on here want to keep meandering along and expecting everything to be rosy. The way the Pro12 is going, it is destined for failure, and the latest nonsense with some games having a far superior level of officiating compared to others is a farce. I cannot believe why the Irish supporters on here do not understand this. I was filled with optimism after hearing the news Martin Anayi announced a few weeks ago, but that all seems like bollox and hot air now.

Well apparently there are 6 different American groups interested in making a bid to join the pro 12. It's been only months since the pro 12 took the decision to expand. These things take time.

Plus they've just held discussions with super rugby officials.

April 2016

"Matches from the Guinness PRO12, the professional rugby union tournament for teams from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy, are to be carried live and exclusively in USA by the Rugby Channel, the new over-the-top digital channel, ultimately owned by USA Rugby, the sport's domestic governing body.

The 24/7 digital channel is now live on Apple iOS and Android mobile devices and online via TheRugbyChannel.tv.....

It was announced that Rugby International Marketing, the commercial subsidiary of USA Rugby that was established last year with financial assistance from England’s Rugby Football Union, has appointed Omnigon, the digital consulting firm that is majority owned by Infront Sports & Media, the Switzerland-based international sports marketing agency, to develop the OTT channel.

Users will be able to stream live matches, get real time play-by-play and head-to-head match stats, view archive match videos, share across social platforms, and receive custom content including the latest news on their favourite clubs."


Didn't know that.

profitius wrote:

Well apparently there are 6 different American groups interested in making a bid to join the pro 12. It's been only months since the pro 12 took the decision to expand. These things take time.

Plus they've just held discussions with super rugby officials.

August 24 - theprovince.com

Pro12 rugby bosses eyeing Canada for expansion

"Another overseas circuit is casting its professional eye towards the Great White North.

Canadian rugby has a new professional suitor.

The Guinness Pro12 league — which has teams in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy — has talks scheduled with Rugby Canada and USA Rugby officials about the possibility of adding North American teams by 2020.

“Rugby Canada has had different and real overtures from established organizations looking to bring professional rugby to Canada as well as North America. We continue to do due diligence on them,” Rugby Canada chairman Tim Powers said in an email to The Province.

“We see the overtures as extremely positive not just for the growth of the game but as potential opportunities for our players to be able to compete for jobs and by extension help our National Men’s 15s team ‎climb up the world rankings.

“It is hard not to fathom professional rugby in Canada in the next few years. It is an exciting time to be a Canadian rugby player as Olympic and professional opportunities are real.”

Four Canadians currently play in the Pro12: Tyler Ardron and Jeff Hassler for the Swansea-based Ospreys, DTH van der Merwe for the Scarlets in Llanelli and Djustice Sears-Duru with the Glasgow Warriors.

‎Pro12 isn’t the only group to have been linked to a possible Canadian expansion: the U.S.-based PRO Rugby has expressed interest in having a Canadian presence since last fall. PRO finished its first season this summer and was seen as a success.

PRO CEO Doug Schoninger told The Province last November he had hoped to have at least one Canadian team in operation for 2016, but couldn’t come to terms with Rugby Canada; 2017 was set by both parties as the new goal. A team in Vancouver and a team in Toronto have appeared to be the best fit since then, but nothing has been confirmed as of yet.

Six Canadians played in the inaugural PRO season: Phil Mackenzie, Hubert Buydens for San Diego, Nick Blevins for San Francisco, Ray Barkwill for Sacramento and Kyle Baillie for Ohio.

Further, it’s believed Super Rugby has been casting a eye towards North American expansion, with Vancouver one of the possible West Coast targets. A source familiar with these talks — who asked not to be identified — acknowledged “there are a lot of moving parts and serious analysis of those potential opportunities‎.”

It’s a marvellous idea, but could it actually work?

That’s the real question. Travel, of course, is the biggest obstacle. Then again, the European Challenge Cup, the second tier of European rugby Champions League-style competition, has included a team from Krasnoyarsk (Enisei-STM) in recent seasons. It’s 7,000 km from London to the Siberian city; for comparison it’s 7,500 km to Vancouver from Heathrow.

English rugby league officials — remember, that’s the 13-a-side cousin to rugby union, which is better known in Canada — seem to think they can make a Toronto-based team work: you may recall the Wolfpack are set to begin play next year in the English third division. The team will be based in the UK but will travel to Toronto for three-week home stands.

Home games for the Canada national rugby league squad have been played in Toronto in the last few years before decent crowds, but still have been dwarfed by the numbers for Rugby (union) Canada home games at BMO Field. Either way, there’s interest in oval-ball games in the Big Smoke: this we know.

That brings us to the second point: solid crowds are a must. Average announced attendance in 2015-16 for the Pro12 was 8,480, though the two Italian sides, Zebre and Treviso, were the weakest links, drawing in the 3,000 range. Some Irish teams draw well above 10,000. Could a team based somewhere in Canada do as well?

TV money is a consideration too. It brings in a large portion of the overall Pro12 budget, but also is small compared to the numbers paid out for rights to England’s Aviva Premiership and France’s Top14. When the expansion idea was first mooted last month — it was just a US team then — there was some hope that there might be a way in to the lucrative US TV market. Of course, that’s a hard thing to imagine, given this is a mostly unknown competition punching its way into a media market which is already flooded with little-watched programming.

On the field you know the playing quality will be there. Rugby Canada’s fledgling XVs training group is part of the Canada ‘A’ tour, currently on-going in the UK and Ireland (they lost to Doncaster Knights on Saturday, they play vs. Ulster A on Friday and Glasgow next Tuesday) and would surely be integrated into a Pro12 operation. Would the team be entirely Canadian players, or would it be composed of players also eligible for the national teams of the other countries involved in the league?

Last, who would pay for this squad? Most of Rugby Canada’s budget is earmarked for development purposes. The teams in the league are run both by private owners and by commercial arms of national rugby unions. There are few people in Canada who might be interested in an ownership stake in a Canadian team — but whether someone comes forward or not will be a good indicator on the true viability of this project.

At the end of the day, this is an intriguing idea, one very much in line with what we’ve known for a long time, that Canadian men’s rugby desperately needs a professional outlet. Whether it’s PRO, Pro12, or Super that wins out, it’s going to be interesting times no matter what."

Pot Hale wrote:April 2016

"Matches from the Guinness PRO12, the professional rugby union tournament for teams from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy, are to be carried live and exclusively in USA by the Rugby Channel, the new over-the-top digital channel, ultimately owned by USA Rugby, the sport's domestic governing body.

The 24/7 digital channel is now live on Apple iOS and Android mobile devices and online via TheRugbyChannel.tv.....

It was announced that Rugby International Marketing, the commercial subsidiary of USA Rugby that was established last year with financial assistance from England’s Rugby Football Union, has appointed Omnigon, the digital consulting firm that is majority owned by Infront Sports & Media, the Switzerland-based international sports marketing agency, to develop the OTT channel.

Users will be able to stream live matches, get real time play-by-play and head-to-head match stats, view archive match videos, share across social platforms, and receive custom content including the latest news on their favourite clubs."


Didn't know that.

It seems there is one outright winner emerging from all this scrambled egg tossing and turning in International rugby recently.  F**king Switzerland!  No f**king rugby but all the f**king dough that comes from it!

Is all this flux across the Atlantic being caused by yet another secretive shot from a particular Wray gun.  I think Switzerland must be home to his brand new underground headquarters to continue his plans for taking over the World.
I jest..................... em of course...... but does anyone know who owns or has shares in Infront Sports & Media?

SecretFly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:April 2016

"Matches from the Guinness PRO12, the professional rugby union tournament for teams from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy, are to be carried live and exclusively in USA by the Rugby Channel, the new over-the-top digital channel, ultimately owned by USA Rugby, the sport's domestic governing body.

The 24/7 digital channel is now live on Apple iOS and Android mobile devices and online via TheRugbyChannel.tv.....

It was announced that Rugby International Marketing, the commercial subsidiary of USA Rugby that was established last year with financial assistance from England’s Rugby Football Union, has appointed Omnigon, the digital consulting firm that is majority owned by Infront Sports & Media, the Switzerland-based international sports marketing agency, to develop the OTT channel.

Users will be able to stream live matches, get real time play-by-play and head-to-head match stats, view archive match videos, share across social platforms, and receive custom content including the latest news on their favourite clubs."


Didn't know that.

It seems there is one outright winner emerging from all this scrambled egg tossing and turning in International rugby recently.  F**king Switzerland!  No f**king rugby but all the f**king dough that comes from it!

Is all this flux across the Atlantic being caused by yet another secretive shot from a particular Wray gun.  I think Switzerland must be home to his brand new underground headquarters to continue his plans for taking over the World.
I jest..................... em of course...... but does anyone know who owns or has shares in Infront Sports & Media?

Teacher, teacher, I know.

He is a man of Napoleonic ambition, with a a military background in the PLA, where he rose from border guard to regimental commander. and who enforces "iron discipline" in the workplace, where employees are fined when they violate the company's conservative dress code.  I give you, Wang Jianlin.

He owns a few billion or two or three or 25 even.

Jesus, just read a bit more about him. This guy makes Nigel look like Elmer Fudd!

Is there no end to these evil-laughing Megalomaniacs??