The Future for the PRO 12 - Part 2 - USA Expansion

First topic message reminder :

We've had the discussion on how does the PRO12 move forward for much of last season.

Towards the end of the season, PR012 CEO, Martin Anayi gave several media interviews on his own, and with PRO 12 chairman, Gerald Davies, on where the PRO12 needs to go to cope with changes in rugby within Six Nations and globally.

Anayi and Davies identified and acknowledged a number of the issues raised by PRO clubs CEOs and fans including increase in TV monies, match-day attendances, marketing, standard of refereeing, season structure and test window matches,  scheduling of season matches/kick-off times including Sunday games, European competitions, player welfare/concussion, growing "event" weekends, etc.

Anayi and Davies met with PRO12 CEOs over the last season to discuss issues and get feedback on a number of proposals that would mark out the future for the PRO 12 and its member unions.  

From various media interviews and reports - some unsubstantiated - a number of key decisions are being considered by PRO 12 and its 12 member clubs along with their representative organisations and unions.  In summary, these would appear to include:

• Changes to season scheduling to make it more accessible, consistent, and appealing to fans across the four unions territories starting from next season 2016/17.
  
• Further investment in a referee development programme to deal with issues/perceptions of bias and neutrality for league fixtures
  
• Stronger and more localised marketing and promotion of league games by the PRO12 and by the individual clubs to attract fans to games and make it more appealing to broadcasters.
  
• More promotion and stronger branding/marketing of games by TV partners
  
• Changing the structure of the league from home & away 22 games to a conference/pool structure that can accommodate more teams in the future from other unions/territories e.g. North America and South Africa, with East Coast of America being the first target to develop a franchise with operational and coaching expertise being provided by the four unions.
  
• Development of Big Event Weekends to drive crowd numbers, create a more appealing product for TV companies/sponsors, and generate more revenues for the PRO12
  
• Reduce number of games played during season and re-strucure so that no "league" games are played during the test windows in November and Feb/March
  
• Consequently, this would allow a greater proportion of league games to have test players involved and increase quality of product.
  
• During test windows, the PRO CEOs want rugby to continue, and a revised development competition is being proposed for these periods for development of academy and young players within squads not involved in test rugby.  This may involve changes to the British & Irish Cup and the Anglo-Wlesh Cup.  One report indicates that Premier Rugby may be interested in discussing the creation of a British & Irish development cup to replace the current AW Cup that would attract increased sponsorship and TV money than currently.
  

It's clear that changes need to occur for the PRO12.   The current structure and set-up is neither sufficient nor sustainable.   The most recent comments on this from the CEO of the IRFU in publishing their annual report indicate this clearly, and what changes need to occur.  He also commented on the plans to develop a franchise in the US.

The potential for the development of a B&I league has been regularly discussed on 606v2, but for the purposes of this topic, it's not being included as the Premiership has commitments for the next 6-7 years on its TV deals that would not countenance such a move.  

Feel free to comment/dispute/argue on what is being proposed - any errors are entirely mine.

Very quiet in here today o0

Well I'm off fencing with a more intelligent bunch of folks over in the political sphere!  They're a grand bunch of lads.... touchy!!!...but a grand bunch.....................

SecretFly wrote:Well I'm off fencing with a more intelligent bunch of folks over in the political sphere!  There a grand bunch of lads.... touchy!!!...but a grand bunch.....................

Oh, sounds like I've been missing something. Must take a peak

Well now I warn you... I am guilty of stirring the auld spoon when I see room for a bit of gas

I think Pro12 expansion into the USA is a good thing, because I truly believe that Donald Trump will make America great again.

Good man Mikey!! Welcome aboard!
Trump's Gonna take a Dump right in the face of the Devil! - at least that's the slogan I'm working on for him.
Okay, so it's not there yet...

SecretFly wrote:Well now I warn you... I am guilty of stirring the auld spoon when I see room for a bit of gas

So I see Disappointed there isn't more Corbyn bashing, or even manic Corbyn support. We need extremes.

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well now I warn you... I am guilty of stirring the auld spoon when I see room for a bit of gas

So I see  Disappointed there isn't more Corbyn bashing, or even manic Corbyn support. We need extremes.

I like the parallels these days. It's so easy to throw an argument together and use it in more than one place. Trump is Corby. Hillary is Blairism and Toryism. Corby is unelectable, Trump is unintelligible, Clinton is crooked, Merkel is Trump, Putin is Corby.............................. hold on a sec, I think I'm getting myself all in a knot now.....

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Well now I warn you... I am guilty of stirring the auld spoon when I see room for a bit of gas

So I see  Disappointed there isn't more Corbyn bashing, or even manic Corbyn support. We need extremes.

I like the parallels these days.  It's so easy to throw an argument together and use it in more than one place.  Trump is Corby.  Hillary is Blairism and Toryism.  Corby is unelectable, Trump is unintelligible, Clinton is crooked,  Merkel is Trump, Putin is Corby.............................. hold on a sec, I think I'm getting myself all in a knot now.....

Well, it is politics. Getting tied in knots is a required art

Pot Hale wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:April 2016

"Matches from the Guinness PRO12, the professional rugby union tournament for teams from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy, are to be carried live and exclusively in USA by the Rugby Channel, the new over-the-top digital channel, ultimately owned by USA Rugby, the sport's domestic governing body.

The 24/7 digital channel is now live on Apple iOS and Android mobile devices and online via TheRugbyChannel.tv.....

It was announced that Rugby International Marketing, the commercial subsidiary of USA Rugby that was established last year with financial assistance from England’s Rugby Football Union, has appointed Omnigon, the digital consulting firm that is majority owned by Infront Sports & Media, the Switzerland-based international sports marketing agency, to develop the OTT channel.

Users will be able to stream live matches, get real time play-by-play and head-to-head match stats, view archive match videos, share across social platforms, and receive custom content including the latest news on their favourite clubs."


Didn't know that.

It seems there is one outright winner emerging from all this scrambled egg tossing and turning in International rugby recently.  F**king Switzerland!  No f**king rugby but all the f**king dough that comes from it!

Is all this flux across the Atlantic being caused by yet another secretive shot from a particular Wray gun.  I think Switzerland must be home to his brand new underground headquarters to continue his plans for taking over the World.
I jest..................... em of course...... but does anyone know who owns or has shares in Infront Sports & Media?

Teacher, teacher, I know.

He is a man of Napoleonic ambition, with a a military background in the PLA, where he rose from border guard to regimental commander. and who enforces "iron discipline" in the workplace, where employees are fined when they violate the company's conservative dress code.  I give you, Wang Jianlin.

He owns a few billion or two or three or 25 even.

The President & CEO of Infront Sports is a Philippe Blatter, nephew of the bould Sepp!

Sin é wrote:

The President & CEO of Infront Sports is a Philippe Blatter, nephew of the bould Sepp!

Well, there you go.  My suspicious instincts have been confirmed.  Not that I'm casting aspersions on Phillippe, but it is an interesting name under the circumstances.

Keep investigating Sin.  Find me the head of Alfredo Garcia.  Find out for me who might have a percentage of the company

Let's do an Allardyce set-up.  I'll play the Chinese man with the big pocket wanting to meet with all shareholders so that I can make a big contribution.

Interesting that the Boston Globe have an obituary for Axel.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/obituaries/2016/10/17/anthony-foley-carried-rugby-club-and-raised-cup/4uyj2hKrB2r15doBFIqjLM/story.html

and same one in New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/17/sports/anthony-foley-dead.html?_r=0

Sin é wrote:Interesting that the Boston Globe have an obituary for Axel.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/obituaries/2016/10/17/anthony-foley-carried-rugby-club-and-raised-cup/4uyj2hKrB2r15doBFIqjLM/story.html

and same one in New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/17/sports/anthony-foley-dead.html?_r=0

I told you the sport really is growing over here on the left side of the Atlantic. A couple of people at work asked me about him because they saw something on the news. And a lot of the inroads here are being made by the Munster diaspora. I am still waiting to see a Saints diaspora over here. They must be in hiding.

By the way, the Times owns the Boston Globe so no surprise the article is repeated.

OMG - I get into enough political arguments on other social media - don't tell me there is scope for political arguments on 606 - i'll never get away from the keyboard

There's been quite a bit of political debate on 606.

Go to home page and select 'off topic' near the bottom

Pro rugby is saying it can block any attempt made by pro 12 in getting a USA team.

Welly wrote:Pro rugby is saying it can block any attempt made by pro 12 in getting a USA team.

Interesting development in north American rugby. Canadian teams were set to join PRO rugby but the Canadian rugby union rejected it yesterday because PRO rugby wanted exclusivity in Canada which would essentially prevent any other professional rugby leagues from setting up there.

Wouldn't be surprised if Canada joins up with it next year though.

Doesn't paint the Pro12 and its chiefs in a great light

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37866584

Plans for American sides to join the Pro12 have been dismissed by the company running the pro game in the US.

Pro Rugby America, in a statement, described Pro12 as an "interloper" and claimed the league "does not have a legitimate business plan."

Pro12 officials held talks about US and Canadian sides being involved, which had been backed by World Rugby.

"It's ridiculous. What they're doing is just disrespectful," Pro Rugby America chief Doug Shoninger told BBC Wales.

"I understand Pro 12 is under a lot of stress, a lot of problem, but it's not our problem. And they need to solve that problem where they sit."

I understand Pro 12 is under a lot of stress, a lot of problem, but it's not our problem. And they need to solve that problem where they sit.

I can't even begin to guess what accent that was said in.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Doesn't paint the Pro12 and its chiefs in a great light

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37866584

Plans for American sides to join the Pro12 have been dismissed by the company running the pro game in the US.

Pro Rugby America, in a statement, described Pro12 as an "interloper" and claimed the league "does not have a legitimate business plan."

Pro12 officials held talks about US and Canadian sides being involved, which had been backed by World Rugby.

"It's ridiculous. What they're doing is just disrespectful," Pro Rugby America chief Doug Shoninger told BBC Wales.

"I understand Pro 12 is under a lot of stress, a lot of problem, but it's not our problem. And they need to solve that problem where they sit."

Id put it down to gamesmanship, they say Pro12 don't have a plan but they are unlikely to reveal it to outsiders who could run interference on it.

They are probably looking for something from Pro12 and that's why they mention Super Rugby and looks like they are actually trying to run before they can walk.

I hope Pro12 doesn't fek this all up.

Welly wrote: I hope Pro12 doesn't fek this all up.

I think if they are focusing on America then its highly possible and are missing out on numerous opportunities closer to home.

Wait, so its not just the Welsh that think the pro12 is a shambles

munkian wrote:Wait, so its not just the Welsh that think the pro12 is a shambles  

He was speaking to BBC Wales so probably made, those Welsh are crafty feckers

munkian wrote:

I understand Pro 12 is under a lot of stress, a lot of problem, but it's not our problem. And they need to solve that problem where they sit.

I can't even begin to guess what accent that was said in.

Think, Don Corleone.

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:Doesn't paint the Pro12 and its chiefs in a great light

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37866584

Plans for American sides to join the Pro12 have been dismissed by the company running the pro game in the US.

Pro Rugby America, in a statement, described Pro12 as an "interloper" and claimed the league "does not have a legitimate business plan."

Pro12 officials held talks about US and Canadian sides being involved, which had been backed by World Rugby.

"It's ridiculous. What they're doing is just disrespectful," Pro Rugby America chief Doug Shoninger told BBC Wales.

"I understand Pro 12 is under a lot of stress, a lot of problem, but it's not our problem. And they need to solve that problem where they sit."

Id put it down to gamesmanship, they say Pro12 don't have a plan but they are unlikely to reveal it to outsiders who could run interference on it.

They are probably looking for something from Pro12 and that's why they mention Super Rugby and looks like they are actually trying to run before they can walk.

Yep, I believe they're trying to talk themselves up. Typical yanks.

Who are descended from the Irish

There's always a Welsh angle when the schidt hits the fan in Pro12 ...or negative words about it.

Coincidence?

Plus - haven't those Evil Lords of Mad Scientistry (the PRL) also been taking soundings recently about becoming more cozy with the great US of Americay?  Surely, they wouldn't have talked down the Pro12 model to the American guys they're trying to court themselves?  "We got loads more money than them asswholes!  Tie your horse to our Global Domination wagon instead."

I spy a lorrah naughtiness going on behind the scenes.  

munkian wrote:Who are descended from the Irish

Even more reason to be agin 'em. Family feuds are big in Irish cultcha!

Sure everyone in the US is descended from the Irish...

... except Trump. He's not our fault

Munchkin wrote:Sure everyone in the US is descended from the Irish...

... except Trump. He's not our fault

Nope hes descended from an orang-utan, right down to the comb over

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Sure everyone in the US is descended from the Irish...

... except Trump. He's not our fault

Nope hes descended from an orang-utan, right down to the comb over

That will explain the orange skin

Yeah, it's the Scots that gotta explain him, Thank God.

Doug Schoninger is the competition, the opposition. Of course he's gonna say that. He's already said it a few times. Particularly after Wordl Rugby endorsed the idea. And again when USA Rugby said they were talking to PRO12.

He's put a lot of money into the PRO team comp in the USA - he doesn't want anyone getting involved that he hasn't got a handle on. It's well possible that he could be talking to Super Rugby people.

However, it's USA Rugby who call the shots, not Schoninger..... or his cat.

During the meanwhile....

Total of 342,431 through the gates after Round 7 is 64,656 up on same time last year. 
Attendances are up overall for the same matches last season by 12,766.

More info here - https://www.606v2.com/t64046-pro12-general-2016-17#3460570

Pot Hale wrote:Doug Schoninger is the competition, the opposition.  Of course he's gonna say that.  He's already said it a few times.  Particularly after Wordl Rugby endorsed the idea.   And again when USA Rugby said they were talking to PRO12.

He's put a lot of money into the PRO team comp in the USA - he doesn't want anyone getting involved that he hasn't got a handle on.   It's well possible that he could be talking to Super Rugby people.

However, it's USA Rugby who call the shots, not Schoninger..... or his cat.

Not if USA rugby have agree exclusivity with him.

Welly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Doug Schoninger is the competition, the opposition.  Of course he's gonna say that.  He's already said it a few times.  Particularly after Wordl Rugby endorsed the idea.   And again when USA Rugby said they were talking to PRO12.

He's put a lot of money into the PRO team comp in the USA - he doesn't want anyone getting involved that he hasn't got a handle on.   It's well possible that he could be talking to Super Rugby people.

However, it's USA Rugby who call the shots, not Schoninger..... or his cat.

Not if USA rugby have agree exclusivity with him.

Shoninger has never claimed he has exclusivity.

Pot Hale wrote:

Welly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Doug Schoninger is the competition, the opposition.  Of course he's gonna say that.  He's already said it a few times.  Particularly after Wordl Rugby endorsed the idea.   And again when USA Rugby said they were talking to PRO12.

He's put a lot of money into the PRO team comp in the USA - he doesn't want anyone getting involved that he hasn't got a handle on.   It's well possible that he could be talking to Super Rugby people.

However, it's USA Rugby who call the shots, not Schoninger..... or his cat.

Not if USA rugby have agree exclusivity with him.

Shoninger has never claimed he has exclusivity.  

Yes he has

See Comment made on Facebook yesterday
Pro Rugby North America
Yes we can block any competition with our exclusive agreement. Yes our request RC was the same as USAR.

So it would seem to be down to Schoninger.....or his cat

I had a read of that PRO Rugby USA facebook page. All very interesting. Rugby Canada has blocked the exclusivity agreement required by Schoninger. Some of the reasons given from the comments is that they a) don't want a similar situation arising as is happening in Wales, France and England with Pro League v. International and b) they fear they will be swallowed up (as it seems is usual) by any US enterprise in Canada!

As an aside - according to Tony Ward in Indo column, Mr Rugby Canada (a man called Parfrey) is from Cork and played for Munster at the same time as Tony Ward). He now represents Canada Rugby on World Rugby's Council (so that should be another vote for Ireland hosting the Rugby World Cup )

Sin é wrote:I had a read of that PRO Rugby USA facebook page. All very interesting. Rugby Canada has blocked the exclusivity agreement required by Schoninger. Some of the reasons given from the comments is that they a) don't want a similar situation arising as is happening in Wales, France and England with Pro League v. International and b) they fear they will be swallowed up (as it seems is usual) by any US enterprise in Canada!

As an aside - according to Tony Ward in Indo column, Mr Rugby Canada (a man called Parfrey) is from Cork and played for Munster at the same time as Tony Ward). He now represents Canada Rugby on World Rugby's Council (so that should be another vote for Ireland hosting the Rugby World Cup )

Reading ProRugbys post on it all, the analogy they use to support the exclusivity agreement

Some people question why we deserve an exclusive professional sanction from RC. A good analogue would be a renter of an apartment. Would the renter renovate the kitchen, the bath, etc. knowing he only had a 2-3 year lease? Maybe, but not with serious investment. Rugby in Canada needs very serious investment and it is only fair and reasonable to have the opportunity to get a return on our investment of time and money. I truly doubt that anyone will make the necessary investment without protections

Maybe a bad analogy but exclusivity doesn't guarantee a long term partnership, it means you shut out any competition

Years ago on this forum, USA Expansion was mentioned

Pro 12 Chiefs should have been looking at this years ago (not because they read this forum, but you could see its potential) my only regret over this is they waited until Pro Rugby USA was set up, and now its either too late, or may leave some bad feeling in the US.

I hope that there is someway that the Pro 12 can work with Douglas Schoninger/PRO Rugby, and work out something that is good for all parties.

Douglas needs to put his cards on the table and admit who else he's talking to who might be promising him the sun, moon and stars to turn down and run down Pro12. Of course, it's all just biz so he'll never do that.......

Don't think its happening now:

Recent forays into the American market have had mixed results with the Test match between Ireland and New Zealand at Soldier Field, Chicago proving a success while a possible move for US teams into the Pro12 has lost momentum.

IRFU & Notre Dame College have agreed some sort of a partnership.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/38508.php#.WCn6p4XWE4A

https://twitter.com/PRO12rugby/status/798509378265608193

Funny that you should put that up, prof.

I was just reading not that long ago some reports on the weekend's games in The Guardian.  And I was reading the comments under the report on our game with Canada.  Some Canadian there was all depressed about the state of rugby in his Nation, and he mentioned that when The Canadian Rugby Union refused to sanction a link up with pro rugby in America, the pro rugby crowd banned any Canadian player from playing in any of the teams?

Does anyone know if this is true?  If it is, it might be the prompt for the Canadians to talk with Pro12.

SecretFly wrote:Funny that you should put that up, prof.

I was just reading not that long ago some reports on the weekend's games in The Guardian.  And I was reading the comments under the report on our game with Canada.  Some Canadian there was all depressed about the state of rugby in his Nation, and he mentioned that when The Canadian Rugby Union refused to sanction a link up with pro rugby in America, the pro rugby crowd banned any Canadian player from playing in any of the teams?

Does anyone know if this is true?  If it is, it might be the prompt for the Canadians to talk with Pro12.

It seems it is true. http://www.cbc.ca/sports/pro-rugby-elusive-canada-1.3845019

As a result, Doug Schoninger, the New York City businessman who runs PRO Rugby, says his teams won't employ Canadian players anymore.

"There might be some exceptions, but our general program is to support people that support us," Schoninger told CBCSports.ca. "It's unfortunate, in all these cases, players get caught, people in the middle get caught."

"I actually think it's the wrong decision for them."

God I bet Pro12 will mess it all up somehow.

It stinks of milking a money cow, but Canada isn't America in that regards.

SecretFly wrote:Funny that you should put that up, prof.

I was just reading not that long ago some reports on the weekend's games in The Guardian.  And I was reading the comments under the report on our game with Canada.  Some Canadian there was all depressed about the state of rugby in his Nation, and he mentioned that when The Canadian Rugby Union refused to sanction a link up with pro rugby in America, the pro rugby crowd banned any Canadian player from playing in any of the teams?

Does anyone know if this is true?  If it is, it might be the prompt for the Canadians to talk with Pro12.

My feeling is that this is the Canadians negotiating with the US pro rugby setup by proxy... Talk to pro12, brings the US pro rugby back to the table. A canadian pro12 team makes little sense to me given weather issues on the east coast, and travel (and weather) issues if looking at Vancouver.

Doug sounds like yet another prize asswhole in the growing list of greedy 'Professional' Rugby pragmatists.

I might be wrong but it seems he's learning his technique from the bully'n'cajole boys in Europe.