The Future for the PRO 12 - Part 2 - USA Expansion

by Pot Hale Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:18 am

First topic message reminder :

We've had the discussion on how does the PRO12 move forward for much of last season.

Towards the end of the season, PR012 CEO, Martin Anayi gave several media interviews on his own, and with PRO 12 chairman, Gerald Davies, on where the PRO12 needs to go to cope with changes in rugby within Six Nations and globally.

Anayi and Davies identified and acknowledged a number of the issues raised by PRO clubs CEOs and fans including increase in TV monies, match-day attendances, marketing, standard of refereeing, season structure and test window matches, scheduling of season matches/kick-off times including Sunday games, European competitions, player welfare/concussion, growing "event" weekends, etc.

Anayi and Davies met with PRO12 CEOs over the last season to discuss issues and get feedback on a number of proposals that would mark out the future for the PRO 12 and its member unions.

From various media interviews and reports - some unsubstantiated - a number of key decisions are being considered by PRO 12 and its 12 member clubs along with their representative organisations and unions. In summary, these would appear to include:

Changes to season scheduling to make it more accessible, consistent, and appealing to fans across the four unions territories starting from next season 2016/17.
Further investment in a referee development programme to deal with issues/perceptions of bias and neutrality for league fixtures
Stronger and more localised marketing and promotion of league games by the PRO12 and by the individual clubs to attract fans to games and make it more appealing to broadcasters.
More promotion and stronger branding/marketing of games by TV partners
Changing the structure of the league from home & away 22 games to a conference/pool structure that can accommodate more teams in the future from other unions/territories e.g. North America and South Africa, with East Coast of America being the first target to develop a franchise with operational and coaching expertise being provided by the four unions.
Development of Big Event Weekends to drive crowd numbers, create a more appealing product for TV companies/sponsors, and generate more revenues for the PRO12
Reduce number of games played during season and re-strucure so that no "league" games are played during the test windows in November and Feb/March
Consequently, this would allow a greater proportion of league games to have test players involved and increase quality of product.
During test windows, the PRO CEOs want rugby to continue, and a revised development competition is being proposed for these periods for development of academy and young players within squads not involved in test rugby. This may involve changes to the British & Irish Cup and the Anglo-Wlesh Cup. One report indicates that Premier Rugby may be interested in discussing the creation of a British & Irish development cup to replace the current AW Cup that would attract increased sponsorship and TV money than currently.

It's clear that changes need to occur for the PRO12. The current structure and set-up is neither sufficient nor sustainable. The most recent comments on this from the CEO of the IRFU in publishing their annual report indicate this clearly, and what changes need to occur. He also commented on the plans to develop a franchise in the US.

The potential for the development of a B&I league has been regularly discussed on 606v2, but for the purposes of this topic, it's not being included as the Premiership has commitments for the next 6-7 years on its TV deals that would not countenance such a move.

Feel free to comment/dispute/argue on what is being proposed - any errors are entirely mine.

by SecretFly Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:17 pm

Welly wrote: God I bet Pro12 will mess it all up somehow.

It stinks of milking a money cow, but Canada isn't America in that regards.

Isn't that the very definition of Professionalism that we've all been told is how it's gotta be, Welly?

by Welly Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:59 pm

SecretFly wrote:Doug sounds like yet another prize asswhole in the growing list of greedy 'Professional' Rugby pragmatists.

I might be wrong but it seems he's learning his technique from the bully'n'cajole boys in Europe.

Not sure that is entirely fair.

He is securing his investment isn't he, I mean he is basically creating an entire league with no infrastructure already in place.

by SecretFly Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:20 pm

Welly wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Doug sounds like yet another prize asswhole in the growing list of greedy 'Professional' Rugby pragmatists.

I might be wrong but it seems he's learning his technique from the bully'n'cajole boys in Europe.

Not sure that is entirely fair.

He is securing his investment isn't he, I mean he is basically creating an entire league with no infrastructure already in place.

He is (as I understood it) demanding exclusivity (ie - my guys own it all) before he plays ball with Canada - the condition Canada felt they couldn't accept. So he sulks and wants to punish some folks for not saying "Yes, sir!"?

It's a style of course. But we're entitled to keep fingering the style that grows as MONEY becomes a fever. Macho tactics are here to stay. Where's my cigar and horse's head?

by Welly Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:33 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Welly wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Doug sounds like yet another prize asswhole in the growing list of greedy 'Professional' Rugby pragmatists.

I might be wrong but it seems he's learning his technique from the bully'n'cajole boys in Europe.

Not sure that is entirely fair.

He is securing his investment isn't he, I mean he is basically creating an entire league with no infrastructure already in place.

He is (as I understood it) demanding exclusivity (ie - my guys own it all) before he plays ball with Canada - the condition Canada felt they couldn't accept. So he sulks and wants to punish some folks for not saying "Yes, sir!"?

It's a style of course. But we're entitled to keep fingering the style that grows as MONEY becomes a fever. Macho tactics are here to stay. Where's my cigar and horse's head?

What is wrong with his actions? Tough yeh but what about Irish rugby and its use of Connacht?

I think he is perfectly fine going for exclusivity he has it with America, he is the one that will be putting money into it not Canada.

by SecretFly Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:42 pm

Welly wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Welly wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Doug sounds like yet another prize asswhole in the growing list of greedy 'Professional' Rugby pragmatists.

I might be wrong but it seems he's learning his technique from the bully'n'cajole boys in Europe.

Not sure that is entirely fair.

He is securing his investment isn't he, I mean he is basically creating an entire league with no infrastructure already in place.

He is (as I understood it) demanding exclusivity (ie - my guys own it all) before he plays ball with Canada - the condition Canada felt they couldn't accept. So he sulks and wants to punish some folks for not saying "Yes, sir!"?

It's a style of course. But we're entitled to keep fingering the style that grows as MONEY becomes a fever. Macho tactics are here to stay. Where's my cigar and horse's head?

What is wrong with his actions? Tough yeh but what about Irish rugby and its use of Connacht?

I think he is perfectly fine going for exclusivity he has it with America, he is the one that will be putting money into it not Canada.

He's a business man. - he only puts money in (usually provided by big loans dished out to himself) to get more money out. I don't buy this philanthropic largesse deal, Welly. Don't buy it for a sec - but that's another trick that keeps popping up in recent years too.
The product (that would have included a few Canadian sides) itself is the money generator in terms of sponsorship interest, population participation, broadcasting deals. He isn't in this to help American Rugby or Canadian Rugby, he's in it for eventual big profits on initial investment.
Again, he's entitled to play things how he wants to play them, but I'll keep having a pop at the new entry wise-guys who have balls enough of their own to take it Wink

by Welly Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:58 pm

I'm sure he feels he has a chance of getting and making a large amount of money. It's obvious he feels there is a chance this could work and he could hit it big.

BUT there is also a huge chance that this doesn't work and he is left with fek all or with a league that struggles to get 3/4000

I think you are clearly over valuing the amount of money that would be made in the short term. His best chance of making large money is IF it does kick of selling the clubs to indivisible owners.

America is a huge market but at the same time it is extremely untested with a tiny amount of exposure up against some of the biggest commercialised sports leagues in the world. He has the right window in summer as I only really conflicts with Baseball but it is a hell of a hill to climb.

by **profitius** Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:49 pm

All not going according to plan for Doug. San Francisco Rush have decided to pull out leaving just 3 teams left.

http://www.thisisamericanrugby.com/2016/12/more-info-on-demise-of-san-francisco.html

by Welly Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:05 pm

4 teams not 3.

by **profitius** Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:25 pm

Welly wrote: 4 teams not 3.

They'd need around 8 for a proper league.

by Welly Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:12 pm

profitius wrote:
Welly wrote: 4 teams not 3.

They'd need around 8 for a proper league.

Guess depends how the expansion goes.

Could easily add a
Seattle
New York
Chicago
Boston/whatever

Also last season held up surprisingly well as a contest IMO.

Look I know the pro12 fans on here are desperate for this to fail but give it a chance.

by SecretFly Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:47 pm

?

Desperate?

Life is too complicated and too busy over here without worrying about wishing failure to a Nation's domestic rugby hopes and dreams.

Interesting Discusser at times of course, but good luck to America in forming its plans to give Rugby a better footing in its Nation.

by Guest Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:10 am

Welly wrote:
profitius wrote:
Welly wrote: 4 teams not 3.

They'd need around 8 for a proper league.

Guess depends how the expansion goes.

Could easily add a
Seattle
New York
Chicago
Boston/whatever

Also last season held up surprisingly well as a contest IMO.

Look I know the pro12 fans on here are desperate for this to fail but give it a chance.

Wind your neck in. Cheap comment rooted in your own imagination.

by **profitius** Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:08 pm

Welly wrote:
profitius wrote:
Welly wrote: 4 teams not 3.

They'd need around 8 for a proper league.

Guess depends how the expansion goes.

Could easily add a
Seattle
New York
Chicago
Boston/whatever

Also last season held up surprisingly well as a contest IMO.

Look I know the pro12 fans on here are desperate for this to fail but give it a chance.

Well it is a thread about expansion to the USA.

by doctor_grey Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:14 pm

This was just a first start, not well conceived, not well funded, not well publicised. The next time will be better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwlWgMTCp8w

by Welly Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:50 pm

Pro Rugby gone now.

I mean the lastest thing might be a negotiating technique from Doug (with his let's say unorthodox Twitter style) but doubt even if it is too carry on that it will work, USA rugby clearly has eyes elsewhere now I'm guessing.

Can see Rugby League starting to get a jump start on the USA market.

Wonder if Mr Toulon is still interested in targeting the us market (if there is a sustainable one) with his other rich owners.

Can't see USA rugby making any progress though in the next 20 years TBH esp with it falling behind more teams. Can't see Mitchell doing an Eddie.

by **profitius** Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:36 am

Welly wrote: Pro Rugby gone now.

I mean the lastest thing might be a negotiating technique from Doug (with his let's say unorthodox Twitter style) but doubt even if it is too carry on that it will work, USA rugby clearly has eyes elsewhere now I'm guessing.

Can see Rugby League starting to get a jump start on the USA market.

Wonder if Mr Toulon is still interested in targeting the us market (if there is a sustainable one) with his other rich owners.

Can't see USA rugby making any progress though in the next 20 years TBH esp with it falling behind more teams. Can't see Mitchell doing an Eddie.

The vultures from Dublin and Wellington are circling north Americay as we speak. Whistle

Don't worry. PRO rugby have said on twitter that they're not gone.

by **profitius** Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:59 pm

Might as well stick this article in here..

http://www.irishrugby.ie/mobile/news/38783.php

Dermot Rigley Joins PRO12 Rugby As Commercial Director

Sports sponsorship and television rights specialist Dermot Rigley will become the latest addition to the growing team at PRO12 Rugby when he joins the board as the Commercial Director in January.

Dermot Rigley has been recruited from RTÉ where he will depart his role as Commercial Head of Sport across TV, Radio and Digital. The 40-year-old was part of the sports management team at RTÉ that successfully acquired broadcast rights to the Olympics, UEFA Champions League, the FIFA World Cup, the Six Nations, the European Tour and the GAA Football and Hurling Championships.

During his time with RTÉ Sport, the department recorded an increase in commercial revenue while Rigley also played a key role in expanding digital coverage across RTÉ's online platforms and securing global sports sponsorships.

Since graduating from Dublin Institute of Technology in 1999 (BA in International Business and Languages), the Dubliner has worked with BSkyB and Zenith Optimedia and continually added to his academic skill-set by completing courses in management, leadership and negotiation.

Speaking about the appointment, Martin Anayi, CEO of PRO12 Rugby, said: "In welcoming Dermot to our expanding team at PRO12 Rugby, I would also like to congratulate him for emerging out of a highly-competitive and rigorous recruitment process that included candidates from across the UK and Ireland.

"The marketplace for sports rights is an arena rife with competition and as a result we are intent on making the GUINNESS PRO12 the most attractive platform possible for commercial partners and rugby fans alike.

"With the advent of activation heavy and experiential-led commercial relationships, our aim is to form innovative broadcast partnerships and offer a more expansive digital media rights package when we go back to the market.

"From that point of view it is an important step forward for the Championship to be able to bring in someone of Dermot's commercial capability and experience."

In addition to his primary responsibilities in sponsorship and securing rights within the senior management group at RTÉ Sport, Rigley has helped to deliver world-class live events and implemented structural change at the broadcaster.

Rigley, who will take up his duties with PRO12 Rugby on January 9, said: "It's an exciting time to be joining the team at PRO12 Rugby as the Championship continues to grow and set new standards on and off the pitch.

"Brands are more committed than ever when it comes to activating their partnerships and engaging with sports fans and from that perspective the GUINNESS PRO12 has so much to offer.

"The innovative approach taken by Martin and his team makes it especially appealing to go into the broadcast market in 2017 to find the best partners to help tell the stories that make the PRO12 such a vibrant tournament.

"Finally, I would like to thank everyone at RTÉ for their hard work and support during my time there. Only the highest standards were accepted at RTÉ Sport and I aim to bring that same approach to my new role with PRO12 Rugby."

by SecretFly Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:03 pm

A lot of marketing 'sickbag' babblebombast therein, prof.

by Pot Hale Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:56 pm

One of the things that new commercial director will need is to point to increasing attendance figures.

At the halfway point in the season, crowds look like they have improved on last season.

In Round 11, - Big Weekend 3 - there were full houses at Munster and Ulster. 21,000 at Murrayfield for the 1872 Cup, and Ospreys attracted a best attendance since 2008 with over 19,000 at the Liberty. Cardiff kept up their increasing gate - up 6,000 on last season overall - with a near full house against Dragons.

That brings the current total to 548,000 through the gates so far this season. An increase of 33,000 on the same matches from last season and an increase of 26,000 for the same time period after Round 11 last year.

Away Team Attraction League

Munster 75,455 (5) - 15,091 avg
Dragons 54,686 (6) - 9,114
Leinster 53,388 (6) - 8,898
Scarlets 50,789 (6) - 8,465
Ospreys 50,043 (5) - 10,008
Glasgow 48,051 (6) - 8,008
Treviso 46,481 (6) - 7,747
Connacht 45,966 (4) - 11,492
Edinburgh 35,152 (5) - 7,030
Zebre 30,505 (5) - 6,101
Cardiff 29,055 (5) - 5,811
Ulster 27,960 (5) - 5,592

by **profitius** Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:07 am

Pot Hale wrote:One of the things that new commercial director will need is to point to increasing attendance figures.

At the halfway point in the season, crowds look like they have improved on last season.

In Round 11, - Big Weekend 3 - there were full houses at Munster and Ulster. 21,000 at Murrayfield for the 1872 Cup, and Ospreys attracted a best attendance since 2008 with over 19,000 at the Liberty. Cardiff kept up their increasing gate - up 6,000 on last season overall - with a near full house against Dragons.

That brings the current total to 548,000 through the gates so far this season. An increase of 33,000 on the same matches from last season and an increase of 26,000 for the same time period after Round 11 last year.

Away Team Attraction League

Munster 75,455 (5) - 15,091 avg
Dragons 54,686 (6) - 9,114
Leinster 53,388 (6) - 8,898
Scarlets 50,789 (6) - 8,465
Ospreys 50,043 (5) - 10,008
Glasgow 48,051 (6) - 8,008
Treviso 46,481 (6) - 7,747
Connacht 45,966 (4) - 11,492
Edinburgh 35,152 (5) - 7,030
Zebre 30,505 (5) - 6,101
Cardiff 29,055 (5) - 5,811
Ulster 27,960 (5) - 5,592

The Future for the PRO 12 - Part 2 - USA Expansion - Page 13 3602195817

Bwt, thanks for compiling all that data throughout the year, Pot. Much appreciated. clap

In other news theres talk of a possible Rome based franchise replacing Zebre. A good Roman team could do wonders for the league. The Italians are doing a lot of chopping and changing though.

by marty2086 Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:15 am

profitius wrote:
In other news theres talk of a possible Rome based franchise replacing Zebre. A good Roman team could do wonders for the league. The Italians are doing a lot of chopping and changing though.

Is the location proving harmful for Zebre?

I know they lost a batch of players when the Italians said they might leave the Pro12 and they failed to retain some of Aironis players which has hampered them

by Welly Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:15 am

Rome would be a good draw for a few Italian and other players IMO.

Trouble with Italy it doesn't have the money of the prestige to attract players or keep them really so with Rome at least location would be a draw.

Just wonder if 2 clubs is too much for Italian rugby currently? Not sure on the rugby below pro12 is like in Italy though.

Would it be better to have a Rome team for Italy and maybe a spainish team instead of the second Italian team?

Estadio José Zorrilla had 26,500 in for the spainish club final last season and the city lacks a top tier sports team currently it's football is in the second tier, it's basketball team is in the 3rd tier and its handball team is in the second tier so could be a good starting place for pro 12 to expand.

by Seagultaf Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:29 pm

Would it be better for the Ittallian sides to play in the French Leauge? Both sides are located in the very north of Italy, close to Milan and Venice, closer to France than much of Italy.

by marty2086 Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:35 pm

Seagultaf wrote:Would it be better for the Ittallian sides to play in the French Leauge? Both sides are located in the very north of Italy, close to Milan and Venice, closer to France than much of Italy.

No for a variety of reasons including the French don't want them

by Kingshu Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:54 pm

Theres been talk of a Rome team since the italians joined the Pro 12.
"Praetorians Roma"

Italy used to have 3 former select teams, Zebre, I Dogi (The Doges) based in Triveneto and I Lupi (The Wolves) based in Central and Southern Italy.

I feel Italy are having Problems setting up Rugby, partly as Benetton Treviso insisted on standing alone, and is in Italys Rugby heartland, and secondly as they always wanted a second team in Rome where it could get a supporter base.

I don't know if a Rome team will help, look at Edinburgh and until recently Glasgow, they are both in big cities and struggle(d) to bring in crowds.

I can see that there is a lot more potential in Rome, but a team would have to be successful.

Also for all this talk of helping set up teams in the US, with coaches and fringe players etc, why haven't we done this with the Italian teams?
I know Glasgow helped with some scrummaging when they were there, but why isn't more like this done?

I think that we should have a Pro 12 trouble shooting coaching team to go round the teams in the bottom 1/3 of the table to help, (at their request), not only will this help the competitiveness of the league, it will help the Italians, and if the USA/Spanish teams are joining it would help make it more attractive to them.

by Welly Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:25 pm

The biggest problem for Treviso is that it is an arse ache to get to really.

It doesn't have the media presence and it isn't a tourist area either.

Rome has the media setup it has the size and it has the tourist factor. (Not saying that tourist will watch it but we could have more of an weekend out in Rome than Treviso), also imagine the travelling fees would prob be cheaper.

It would have to be more successful but I do feel it would be a better draw for players and coaches instead of being out in the middle of rural Italy.

Treviso only has a pop of 82,000

by marty2086 Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:40 pm

Treviso are owned by the Benetton Group though so are unlikely to move or leave the league, they have also been able to sign some decent players over the years

Kingshus suggestion of greater cooperation with the other teams is something Ive been going on about for a few years, its in the interests of the other teams to tap into the Italian market. Yes they could be more competitive and make things harder but greater success will draw other brands like Benetton to the teams and the league overall along with the potential for a boost in tv revenue will be beneficial to all

by Welly Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:31 pm

And which players would they be?

I suppose if they are a separate entity then maybe the IRaly Rugby union could form the other team and have joint offers with the nation team for the supporters.

by marty2086 Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:45 pm

Prior to the Pro 12 Treviso have had Troncon, Parisse and Lynagh and during the Pro 12 era they have had Cittadini, Ghiraldini, Campagnaro, Canale and the Bergamascos

by Welly Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:09 pm

Talking about none Italian players.

Also some of those Treviso was their first pro club.

by Kingshu Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:18 pm

I actually think that O'Shea will have a postive impact on all Italian Rugby.

I think the long term aim for Italy growing to have its 3 representive team in the Pro 12, Zebre, I Dogi (The Dogs) I Lupi (The Wolves), however I do not know the best way to get there.

They can barely keep two teams never mind 3. I think replacing, Benetton Treviso with I Dogi would be a better long term aim, or growing Benetton Treviso into I Dogi and Benetton Treviso reentering the National Championship of Excellence.

So maybe evolving Benetton Treviso into I Dogi, dropping Zebre (with the intention to reinstate them later) for I Lupi based in Rome may be the best idea.

But the big question is what can the Pro 12 as a league do to help, I think a specialised couching team that moves round and helps teams for a while would help (scrum coach, kicking coach etc).

Moving players isn't always easy.

by marty2086 Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:45 pm

I don't think Treviso will be going anywhere or evolving into anything, I think they turned down a merger before they entered the Pro 12 and have the financial independence and strength to not need it

What the Italians need is a prolonged period of stability to develop proper foundations that they are lacking. Ripping up those they have established and starting again, even in a bigger market stinks of taking a step backwards

by Pot Hale Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:03 am

So the picture on PRO12 crowd attendance after Round 12 compared to Round 12 last year looks like this in summary by country:

Country	2015/16	2016/17	Inc/Dec
Ireland	271,175	313,469	+42,294
Wales	161,505	177,522	+16,017
Scotland	91,868	75,333	-16,535
Italy	33,501	29,201	-4,300

Overall, PRO12 crowds are up by about 37,500 on last year.

Round 12 saw further New Year full houses at both the RDS and squeaking the last of them into the rafters at the Sportsground for their derby against Munster with an extra 2,000 than their normal full house. Based on comparing the same matches with last year, Irish crowds are up by 30,000 for the season so far with Munster, Leinster and Connacht making the most gains. Ulster's admirable consistent gate of 15,500 shows there's not much room for improvement although their derby games against Connacht and Munster got crowds of over 17,500.

Scarlets and Dragons increased their derby attendances on last year with their respective games against Cardiff and Ospreys on New Year's Day. However, Parc y Scarlets and Rodney Parade are losing punters overall so far - down 3,600 and 2,2721 for the season. Ospreys and Cardiff have grown their crowds and have contributed to the overall increase of 16,000 for Welsh home crowds so far.

Scottish crowds have dropped 16,000 compared to the same rounds last year - in part because the 1872 derby has been shifted to end of season for the final weekend, and not as many went to Murrayfield for the first leg. Glasgow are constrained by Scotstoun limits but so far when comparing the same matches as last year, they've increased slightly by 2,200 - they've played one less home game (5) than most other teams who've played 6. Edinburgh are down 2,000 in comparison to the same games last year. Things should balance up more over the next few rounds.

The Italians are down by about 4,500 although with their less than accurate or regular reporting of attendances, it's hard to make any accurate comparison.

That brings the current total to 595,000 through the gates so far this season with an average gate so far of 8,500 for the season compared to 7,750 last season in the same time period.

Team Average Gates

To date by Round 12, most teams have increased their average gate compared to their seasontotal achieved last year - some marginal gains, some substantial. Connacht, Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Treviso have increased. Cardiff, Dragons, Scarlets, and Zebre are down so far - but this may change as more rounds are played and crowds increase towards the latter end of the season in better weather and races for places heat up.

Home Team Attendance League - ranked by average crowd

Team	Home Att	Games	Average
Leinster	112,480	6	18,747
Ulster	78,457	5	15,691
Munster	78,572	6	13,095
Ospreys	60,430	6	10,072
Cardiff	48,226	6	8,038
Glasgow	36,370	5	7,274
Scarlets	40,430	6	6,738
Edinburgh	38,963	6	6,494
Connacht	43,960	7	6,280
Dragons	28,436	6	4,739
Treviso	19,700	6	3,283
Zebre	9,501	5	1900

Away Team Attraction League - ranked by average crowd

Team	Away Att	Games	Average
Munster	83,545	6	13,924
Connacht	45,966	4	11,492
Ospreys	56,789	6	9,465
Dragons	54,686	6	9,114
Leinster	53,588	6	8,931
Scarlets	50,769	5	8,462
Treviso	46,481	6	7,747
Ulster	45,890	6	7,648
Glasgow	51,491	7	7,356
Cardiff	39,164	6	6,527
Edinburgh	36,652	6	6,109
Zebre	30,504	5	6,101

by SecretFly Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:59 pm

Very good stuff you're doing on this area, Pot. I know it doesn't in itself generate much discussion but as a valuable go-to resource for any future debates, it's the kind of direct-up info that I like.

Keep up the good work

by Pot Hale Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:52 pm

SecretFly wrote:Very good stuff you're doing on this area, Pot. I know it doesn't in itself generate much discussion but as a valuable go-to resource for any future debates, it's the kind of direct-up info that I like.

Keep up the good work

Thank you very much and a Happy New Year to you Senor Secretfly.

by demosthenes Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:27 pm

Pot Hale wrote:So the picture on PRO12 crowd attendance after Round 12 compared to Round 12 last year looks like this in summary by country:

Country
2015/16
2016/17
Inc/Dec
Ireland 271,175 313,469 +42,294
Wales 161,505 177,522 +16,017
Scotland 91,868 75,333 -16,535
Italy 33,501 29,201 -4,300

Overall, PRO12 crowds are up by about 37,500 on last year.

Round 12 saw further New Year full houses at both the RDS and squeaking the last of them into the rafters at the Sportsground for their derby against Munster with an extra 2,000 than their normal full house. Based on comparing the same matches with last year, Irish crowds are up by 30,000 for the season so far with Munster, Leinster and Connacht making the most gains. Ulster's admirable consistent gate of 15,500 shows there's not much room for improvement although their derby games against Connacht and Munster got crowds of over 17,500.

Scarlets and Dragons increased their derby attendances on last year with their respective games against Cardiff and Ospreys on New Year's Day. However, Parc y Scarlets and Rodney Parade are losing punters overall so far - down 3,600 and 2,2721 for the season. Ospreys and Cardiff have grown their crowds and have contributed to the overall increase of 16,000 for Welsh home crowds so far.

Scottish crowds have dropped 16,000 compared to the same rounds last year - in part because the 1872 derby has been shifted to end of season for the final weekend, and not as many went to Murrayfield for the first leg. Glasgow are constrained by Scotstoun limits but so far when comparing the same matches as last year, they've increased slightly by 2,200 - they've played one less home game (5) than most other teams who've played 6. Edinburgh are down 2,000 in comparison to the same games last year. Things should balance up more over the next few rounds.

The Italians are down by about 4,500 although with their less than accurate or regular reporting of attendances, it's hard to make any accurate comparison.

That brings the current total to 595,000 through the gates so far this season with an average gate so far of 8,500 for the season compared to 7,750 last season in the same time period.

Team Average Gates

To date by Round 12, most teams have increased their average gate compared to their seasontotal achieved last year - some marginal gains, some substantial. Connacht, Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Treviso have increased. Cardiff, Dragons, Scarlets, and Zebre are down so far - but this may change as more rounds are played and crowds increase towards the latter end of the season in better weather and races for places heat up.

Home Team Attendance League - ranked by average crowd

Team Home Att Games Average
Leinster 112,480 6 18,747
Ulster 78,457 5 15,691
Munster 78,572 6 13,095
Ospreys 60,430 6 10,072
Cardiff 48,226 6 8,038
Glasgow 36,370 5 7,274
Scarlets 40,430 6 6,738
Edinburgh 38,963 6 6,494
Connacht 43,960 7 6,280
Dragons 28,436 6 4,739
Treviso 19,700 6 3,283
Zebre 9,501 5 1900
Away Team Attraction League - ranked by average crowd

Team Away Att Games Average
Munster 83,545 6 13,924
Connacht 45,966 4 11,492
Ospreys 56,789 6 9,465
Dragons 54,686 6 9,114
Leinster 53,588 6 8,931
Scarlets 50,769 5 8,462
Treviso 46,481 6 7,747
Ulster 45,890 6 7,648
Glasgow 51,491 7 7,356
Cardiff 39,164 6 6,527
Edinburgh 36,652 6 6,109
Zebre 30,504 5 6,101

Pot, excellent work, thanks.

If possible, could you show the home attendances as a percentage capacity as well? That would serve to show the teams that have potential to increase attendances, and those who need to expand their grounds (or move).

by Pot Hale Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:07 pm

demosthenes wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:So the picture on PRO12 crowd attendance after Round 12 compared to Round 12 last year looks like this in summary by country:

Country
2015/16
2016/17
Inc/Dec
Ireland 271,175 313,469 +42,294
Wales 161,505 177,522 +16,017
Scotland 91,868 75,333 -16,535
Italy 33,501 29,201 -4,300

Overall, PRO12 crowds are up by about 37,500 on last year.

Round 12 saw further New Year full houses at both the RDS and squeaking the last of them into the rafters at the Sportsground for their derby against Munster with an extra 2,000 than their normal full house. Based on comparing the same matches with last year, Irish crowds are up by 30,000 for the season so far with Munster, Leinster and Connacht making the most gains. Ulster's admirable consistent gate of 15,500 shows there's not much room for improvement although their derby games against Connacht and Munster got crowds of over 17,500.

Scarlets and Dragons increased their derby attendances on last year with their respective games against Cardiff and Ospreys on New Year's Day. However, Parc y Scarlets and Rodney Parade are losing punters overall so far - down 3,600 and 2,2721 for the season. Ospreys and Cardiff have grown their crowds and have contributed to the overall increase of 16,000 for Welsh home crowds so far.

Scottish crowds have dropped 16,000 compared to the same rounds last year - in part because the 1872 derby has been shifted to end of season for the final weekend, and not as many went to Murrayfield for the first leg. Glasgow are constrained by Scotstoun limits but so far when comparing the same matches as last year, they've increased slightly by 2,200 - they've played one less home game (5) than most other teams who've played 6. Edinburgh are down 2,000 in comparison to the same games last year. Things should balance up more over the next few rounds.

The Italians are down by about 4,500 although with their less than accurate or regular reporting of attendances, it's hard to make any accurate comparison.

That brings the current total to 595,000 through the gates so far this season with an average gate so far of 8,500 for the season compared to 7,750 last season in the same time period.

Team Average Gates

To date by Round 12, most teams have increased their average gate compared to their seasontotal achieved last year - some marginal gains, some substantial. Connacht, Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Treviso have increased. Cardiff, Dragons, Scarlets, and Zebre are down so far - but this may change as more rounds are played and crowds increase towards the latter end of the season in better weather and races for places heat up.

Home Team Attendance League - ranked by average crowd

Team Home Att Games Average
Leinster 112,480 6 18,747
Ulster 78,457 5 15,691
Munster 78,572 6 13,095
Ospreys 60,430 6 10,072
Cardiff 48,226 6 8,038
Glasgow 36,370 5 7,274
Scarlets 40,430 6 6,738
Edinburgh 38,963 6 6,494
Connacht 43,960 7 6,280
Dragons 28,436 6 4,739
Treviso 19,700 6 3,283
Zebre 9,501 5 1900
Away Team Attraction League - ranked by average crowd

Team Away Att Games Average
Munster 83,545 6 13,924
Connacht 45,966 4 11,492
Ospreys 56,789 6 9,465
Dragons 54,686 6 9,114
Leinster 53,588 6 8,931
Scarlets 50,769 5 8,462
Treviso 46,481 6 7,747
Ulster 45,890 6 7,648
Glasgow 51,491 7 7,356
Cardiff 39,164 6 6,527
Edinburgh 36,652 6 6,109
Zebre 30,504 5 6,101

Pot, excellent work, thanks.

If possible, could you show the home attendances as a percentage capacity as well? That would serve to show the teams that have potential to increase attendances, and those who need to expand their grounds (or move).

Hi Demosthenes. Funny you should ask that because that is what I was going to do but left it. I'll look at it for the next analysis after Round 14.

by demosthenes Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:57 am

Excellent thanks, look forward to it.

Thinking about it, I assume that you will need to split the figures for teams using more than one 'home' ground. I think that is mainly Leinster and Munster? Although with Edinburgh moving from Murrayfield to Myreside for the second half of the season that will also complicate matters!

by SecretFly Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:21 am

Well technically a home ground is a home ground and a Province isn't a club so.... it has room enough for two home grounds... Wink

by Pot Hale Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:24 pm

Yes I had considered treating it as capacities available to the team. Leinster is only allowed use Lansdowne Rd 2-3 times a season I think. The Munster derby and the Xmas Euro match are the traditional ones. So league matches in Aviva would get measured on 51k capacity with about 40k achieved - 80%. Alternatively, I could just add all the available capacities for each match compare total against that.

E.g. Leinster had 5 x 18,200 and 1 x 51,000. That's 142,000 for 6 matches. That means they've achieved 79% so far.

by Pot Hale Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:57 pm

As a by the by on PRO12 attendances in Europe, here's what picture looks like after first 4 rounds compared to last year. Increase of 15,000 overall but some ups and downs for a few teams:

Round	1	2	3	4	16/17	15/16
Connacht	8,091			8,090	16,181	7,478
Leinster	13,890			38,584	52,474	(9,242)
Munster	-	25,600	25,600		51,200	11,176
Ulster	-	16,843	16,316		33,159	(66)
Cardiff	-	6,960	7,569		14,529	4,678
Dragons	4,126			4,096	8,222	(435)
Ospreys	7,352			7,039	14,391	(2,311)
Scarlets	6,521			8,579	15,100	821
Edinburgh	-	5,326	4,055		9,381	2,566
Glasgow	7,351			7,351	14,702	1,326
Treviso	1,900			1,500	3,400	(3,500)
Zebre	-	3,000	3,000		6,000	2,559
Total	49,231	57,729	56,540	75,239	238,739	15,050

by wolfball Wed May 17, 2017 11:39 pm

Some chatter that http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/sa-rugby-rules-out-merging-of-franchises-20170517 means the potential for two SA teams to join a European league, with PRO12 the likeliest.

by **profitius** Thu May 18, 2017 7:31 pm

Talk today that Houston is almost a done deal with just a few minor hurdles to overcome.

by LordDowlais Fri May 19, 2017 10:18 am

Who is going to fit the bill for the Pro12 teams to travel to these far flung countries on different continents 1000's of miles away ?

Also, how would this effect the TV deals, I know South Africa are not miles off, but is Houston even in our time zone ? Would we be having to watch these games at stupid o'clock in the morning/night.

by EWT Spoons Fri May 19, 2017 10:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:Who is going to fit the bill for the Pro12 teams to travel to these far flung countries on different continents 1000's of miles away ?

Also, how would this effect the TV deals, I know South Africa are not miles off, but is Houston even in our time zone ? Would we be having to watch these games at stupid o'clock in the morning/night.

Not for one second supporting the Houston decision, but just to answer this specific question, Houston is 6 hours behind us. So an early afternoon ko in Houston/early evening ko here would be fine time difference wise.

by marty2086 Fri May 19, 2017 10:29 am

Who knew America was far flung, you learn something new everyday

by LordDowlais Fri May 19, 2017 10:30 am

EWT Spoons wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Who is going to fit the bill for the Pro12 teams to travel to these far flung countries on different continents 1000's of miles away ?

Also, how would this effect the TV deals, I know South Africa are not miles off, but is Houston even in our time zone ? Would we be having to watch these games at stupid o'clock in the morning/night.

Not for one second supporting the Houston decision, but just to answer this specific question, Houston is 6 hours behind us. So an early afternoon ko in Houston/early evening ko here would be fine time difference wise.

Ah OK, so if they had a 2pm afternoon kick off, we would watch it at 8pm, which is not so bad I suppose, but you would not see many traveling fans. Shocked

The whole cost of travelling to these countries though would cripple the Welsh regions.

by LordDowlais Fri May 19, 2017 10:31 am

marty2086 wrote:Who knew America was far flung, you learn something new everyday

marty, trolling me again ? Rolling Eyes

by marty2086 Fri May 19, 2017 10:35 am

You're not that special, just merely pointing out yet more cluelessness on your part

Which you kindly followed up with more when you talk about how it will cripple the Regions, because everyone would sign up to something that would be the death of them Rolling Eyes

by BamBam Fri May 19, 2017 10:46 am

LordDowlais wrote:Who is going to fit the bill for the Pro12 teams to travel to these far flung countries on different continents 1000's of miles away ?

Also, how would this effect the TV deals, I know South Africa are not miles off, but is Houston even in our time zone ? Would we be having to watch these games at stupid o'clock in the morning/night.

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