Munster Debts

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/irfu-chief-does-not-believe-munster-can-make-debt-repayments-1.2723985

Clearly Philip Browne didn't read the thread on here in which I was told the debts would be repaid without an issue.

Plus an Aslan concert back in June at Thomond at a new Plaza Marquee, which seems to be a new income source.

Hopefully a good start to the season will draw some of the fair weather fans back and help them out.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:The only thing wrong with Munster is that they tried to pay back the 15m they borrowed too quickly. Who in their right minds pays off their mortgage within 10 years? The WRU is still owe money on the Mellenium Stadium (or they did up to recently), 16 years after it was built. Thomond Park is only 8 years old.

That's payed off now with a lot of hard work. The only thing is, New Zealand want to have a share of the profits after all the hard work has been done.

Anyway, Munster bit off more than they could chew, that's their fault. If they cannot pay their debts, they should be wound up. Although, I would hate to see that happen.

On the other hand, are Munster in debt ? If they owe it to the IRFU, then is that really a debt ? They are owned by the IRFU, so how can they be in debt to them ? Surely the IRFU could just write off the debt, unless the money is owed to somebody else, and even then it's the IRFU's debt, surely ?

Why should they be wound up? If they are wound up the IRFU likely don't see all their money, so what good does that do anyone?

The payments will be restructured and the money repaid just over a longer period until such time Munster get their act together

marty2086 wrote:Why should they be wound up? If they are wound up the IRFU likely don't see all their money, so what good does that do anyone?

Look, seeing Munster being wound up is the last thing I want to see. But if they cannot pay off their debts, then thats what should happen. Privately owned clubs do not get the same luxury, look at Celtic Warriors.

marty2086 wrote:The payments will be restructured and the money repaid just over a longer period until such time Munster get their act together

Then Dai Llewod is right. It is an unfair situation and it makes a mockery of the league. It gives the union owned clubs license to over stretch themselves to gain an advantage but not the worry of it blowing up in their faces. Unless, what I am saying is correct, that Munster are not in debt as it is all the IRFU's money anyway.

Saracens are £45 mil in debt at last count.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Why should they be wound up? If they are wound up the IRFU likely don't see all their money, so what good does that do anyone?

Look, seeing Munster being wound up is the last thing I want to see. But if they cannot pay off their debts, then thats what should happen. Privately owned clubs do not get the same luxury, look at Celtic Warriors.

marty2086 wrote:The payments will be restructured and the money repaid just over a longer period until such time Munster get their act together

Then Dai Llewod is right. It is an unfair situation and it makes a mockery of the league. It gives the union owned clubs license to over stretch themselves to gain an advantage but not the worry of it blowing up in their faces. Unless, what I am saying is correct, that Munster are not in debt as it is all the IRFU's money anyway.

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them or which they didn't have to invest huge sums of money into. Lets not forget that Munster has had to raise about 35m in the last 10 years to pay for a stadium. It has also had to maintain 2 stadia and 2 training centres.

Thats because its a sparsely populated area with huge distances involved. You've heard me saying how Friday night games kill Munster attendances off as no one can get there from outside Limerick.

Anyway, Munster spanking new state of the art training centre (cost 9.5m) will be opening next week.

Sin é wrote:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them or which they didn't have to invest huge sums of money into. Lets not forget that Munster has had to raise about 35m in the last 10 years to pay for a stadium. It has also had to maintain 2 stadia and 2 training centres.

Thats because its a sparsely populated area with huge distances involved. You've heard me saying how Friday night games kill Munster attendances off as no one can get there from outside Limerick.

You could say more or less the same about other teams in the league. The Scarlets for instance put £8m of their money into the stadium they live in. But they had to do it while their country's press was constantly piling into them for being "cash strapped" and a "crisis region". They then had to trim the wage bill and get second rate players in for 4 seasons just so they could balance the books and are still failing to do that. Not such bad luck for Munster eh, as they're bailed out by their Union despite financial mismanagement on a gross level. The Irish reaction here just seems to be stop complaining that's how we roll in Ireland. Very odd double standards when you look at the moaning at the Saracens rugby model.

Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Why should they be wound up? If they are wound up the IRFU likely don't see all their money, so what good does that do anyone?

Look, seeing Munster being wound up is the last thing I want to see. But if they cannot pay off their debts, then thats what should happen. Privately owned clubs do not get the same luxury, look at Celtic Warriors.

marty2086 wrote:The payments will be restructured and the money repaid just over a longer period until such time Munster get their act together

Then Dai Llewod is right. It is an unfair situation and it makes a mockery of the league. It gives the union owned clubs license to over stretch themselves to gain an advantage but not the worry of it blowing up in their faces. Unless, what I am saying is correct, that Munster are not in debt as it is all the IRFU's money anyway.

Were the regions or their predecessors debts at least not paid off prior to the Celtic League?

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

My point being, this is a lie:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

My point being, this is a lie:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them

No it wasn't, Ulster own the stadium and have done for nearly a century.

Public funds were used to redevelop it, bit different

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

From Walesonlne:

The stadium was built by Laing. The total construction cost was £121 million, which was funded by private investment and £46 million of public funds from the Millennium Commission, the sale of debentures to supporters (which offered guaranteed tickets in exchange for an interest-free loan), and loans. The development left the WRU heavily in debt.

I was holding that one in reserve for Phil, I mean Dai

Irish Londoner wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

From Walesonlne:

The stadium was built by Laing. The total construction cost was £121 million, which was funded by private investment and £46 million of public funds from the Millennium Commission, the sale of debentures to supporters (which offered guaranteed tickets in exchange for an interest-free loan), and loans. The development left the WRU heavily in debt.

The difference being that no deluded people on the internet are denying that ^

marty2086 wrote:

I was holding that one in reserve for Phil, I mean Dai

I'm really not sure what this "Phil" thing is about. My name is not Phil. So either explain what you are withering on about, or kindly refrain from posting this confusing mess. Thanks.

I don't think there are here either ?

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

My point being, this is a lie:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them

No it wasn't, Ulster own the stadium and have done for nearly a century.

Public funds were used to redevelop it, bit different

So your argument revolves entirely around the different semantical use of the words "build" and "redevelop".

That's excellent fair play.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

My point being, this is a lie:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them

No it wasn't, Ulster own the stadium and have done for nearly a century.

Public funds were used to redevelop it, bit different

So your argument revolves entirely around the different semantical use of the words "build" and "redevelop".

That's excellent fair play.

Ermm the phrase used was supplied not build

Its hardly semantics, they had a stadium and didn't use one

Maybe if you were familiar with NI politics and maybe some Keynesian economic theories you'd grasp it all

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

My point being, this is a lie:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them

No it wasn't, Ulster own the stadium and have done for nearly a century.

Public funds were used to redevelop it, bit different

So your argument revolves entirely around the different semantical use of the words "build" and "redevelop".

That's excellent fair play.

Ermm the phrase used was supplied not build

Its hardly semantics, they had a stadium and didn't use one

Maybe if you were familiar with NI politics and maybe some Keynesian economic theories you'd grasp it all

So the point that Ulster received all those millions from UK Taxpayers to "redevelop" their stadium should be entirely ignored, is that what you're saying?

Quite normal to get a bit of help with stuff like this. Weren't Scarlets given a grant for their ground?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quite normal to get a bit of help with stuff like this. Weren't Scarlets given a grant for their ground?

Yes, not quite on the same level. But I wouldn't ignore that, and would be quite understanding if a local taxpayer was to ask what the benefit of the funding was.

Same thing though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Same thing though.

Exactly.

Dai Llewod wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them or which they didn't have to invest huge sums of money into. Lets not forget that Munster has had to raise about 35m in the last 10 years to pay for a stadium. It has also had to maintain 2 stadia and 2 training centres.

Thats because its a sparsely populated area with huge distances involved. You've heard me saying how Friday night games kill Munster attendances off as no one can get there from outside Limerick.

You could say more or less the same about other teams in the league. The Scarlets for instance put £8m of their money into the stadium they live in. But they had to do it while their country's press was constantly piling into them for being "cash strapped" and a "crisis region". They then had to trim the wage bill and get second rate players in for 4 seasons just so they could balance the books and are still failing to do that. Not such bad luck for Munster eh, as they're bailed out by their Union despite financial mismanagement on a gross level. The Irish reaction here just seems to be stop complaining that's how we roll in Ireland. Very odd double standards when you look at the moaning at the Saracens rugby model.

If Thomond Park cost Munster 8m instead of 40m+, this thread would not exist.

Sin é wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them or which they didn't have to invest huge sums of money into. Lets not forget that Munster has had to raise about 35m in the last 10 years to pay for a stadium. It has also had to maintain 2 stadia and 2 training centres.

Thats because its a sparsely populated area with huge distances involved. You've heard me saying how Friday night games kill Munster attendances off as no one can get there from outside Limerick.

You could say more or less the same about other teams in the league. The Scarlets for instance put £8m of their money into the stadium they live in. But they had to do it while their country's press was constantly piling into them for being "cash strapped" and a "crisis region". They then had to trim the wage bill and get second rate players in for 4 seasons just so they could balance the books and are still failing to do that. Not such bad luck for Munster eh, as they're bailed out by their Union despite financial mismanagement on a gross level. The Irish reaction here just seems to be stop complaining that's how we roll in Ireland. Very odd double standards when you look at the moaning at the Saracens rugby model.

If Thomond Park cost Munster 8m instead of 40m+, this thread would not exist.

Indeed. But their financial mismanagement ensured it does.

Such is sport. Not many things do make a profit unless you get a load of glory fans ala Man U.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

My point being, this is a lie:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them

No it wasn't, Ulster own the stadium and have done for nearly a century.

Public funds were used to redevelop it, bit different

So your argument revolves entirely around the different semantical use of the words "build" and "redevelop".

That's excellent fair play.

Ermm the phrase used was supplied not build

Its hardly semantics, they had a stadium and didn't use one

Maybe if you were familiar with NI politics and maybe some Keynesian economic theories you'd grasp it all

So the point that Ulster received all those millions from UK Taxpayers to "redevelop" their stadium should be entirely ignored, is that what you're saying?

Well, the UK taxpayer (incl. NI) have built a couple of stadia in Wales and elsewhere (Millenium, Liberty, Scarlets, Cardiff Arms - all built or redeveloped recently). NI got a sum for 3 sports that has been sadly neglected over the years.

Sin é wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

My point being, this is a lie:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them

No it wasn't, Ulster own the stadium and have done for nearly a century.

Public funds were used to redevelop it, bit different

So your argument revolves entirely around the different semantical use of the words "build" and "redevelop".

That's excellent fair play.

Ermm the phrase used was supplied not build

Its hardly semantics, they had a stadium and didn't use one

Maybe if you were familiar with NI politics and maybe some Keynesian economic theories you'd grasp it all

So the point that Ulster received all those millions from UK Taxpayers to "redevelop" their stadium should be entirely ignored, is that what you're saying?

Well, the UK taxpayer (incl. NI) have built a couple of stadia in Wales and elsewhere  (Millenium, Liberty, Scarlets, Cardiff Arms - all built or redeveloped recently). NI got a sum for 3 sports that has been sadly neglected over the years.

What redevelopment has Cardiff Arms Park had recently?

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quite normal to get a bit of help with stuff like this. Weren't Scarlets given a grant for their ground?

Yes, not quite on the same level. But I wouldn't ignore that, and would be quite understanding if a local taxpayer was to ask what the benefit of the funding was.

Why build new roads?

Dai Llewod wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

My point being, this is a lie:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them

No it wasn't, Ulster own the stadium and have done for nearly a century.

Public funds were used to redevelop it, bit different

So your argument revolves entirely around the different semantical use of the words "build" and "redevelop".

That's excellent fair play.

Ermm the phrase used was supplied not build

Its hardly semantics, they had a stadium and didn't use one

Maybe if you were familiar with NI politics and maybe some Keynesian economic theories you'd grasp it all

So the point that Ulster received all those millions from UK Taxpayers to "redevelop" their stadium should be entirely ignored, is that what you're saying?

Well, the UK taxpayer (incl. NI) have built a couple of stadia in Wales and elsewhere  (Millenium, Liberty, Scarlets, Cardiff Arms - all built or redeveloped recently). NI got a sum for 3 sports that has been sadly neglected over the years.

What redevelopment has Cardiff Arms Park had recently?

I thought they got a new pitch? OK if they didn't. Lets talk about the Liberty, Millenium & Scarlets being part funded by UK (i.e., includes NI taxpayer)?

Sin é wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Also, wasn't Ulster's stadium half paid for by the likes of myself and Lord Dowlais, as UK Taxpayers?

Your point being?

My point being, this is a lie:

Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them

No it wasn't, Ulster own the stadium and have done for nearly a century.

Public funds were used to redevelop it, bit different

So your argument revolves entirely around the different semantical use of the words "build" and "redevelop".

That's excellent fair play.

Ermm the phrase used was supplied not build

Its hardly semantics, they had a stadium and didn't use one

Maybe if you were familiar with NI politics and maybe some Keynesian economic theories you'd grasp it all

So the point that Ulster received all those millions from UK Taxpayers to "redevelop" their stadium should be entirely ignored, is that what you're saying?

Well, the UK taxpayer (incl. NI) have built a couple of stadia in Wales and elsewhere  (Millenium, Liberty, Scarlets, Cardiff Arms - all built or redeveloped recently). NI got a sum for 3 sports that has been sadly neglected over the years.

What redevelopment has Cardiff Arms Park had recently?

I thought they got a new pitch? OK if they didn't. Lets talk about the Liberty, Millenium & Scarlets being part funded by UK (i.e., includes NI taxpayer)?  

You count a new pitch as a "redevelopment" ?

What UK funding did those stadiums get?

What do you believe tax should be spent on Dai?

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you believe tax should be spent on Dai?

Anything that helps the society and community in which it was raised.

So there's no real issue with the (re)development of any sports etc discussed here and wider afield.

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you believe tax should be spent on Dai?

Anything that helps the society and community in which it was raised.

So new jobs? New Education centre? Extra revenue for local shops?

No good for the local community?

You'd make a great businessman

No 7&1/2 wrote:So there's no real issue with the (re)development of any sports etc discussed here and wider afield.

Absolutely none, as long as it is acknowledged, and we don't get statements like "Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them".

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you believe tax should be spent on Dai?

Anything that helps the society and community in which it was raised.

So new jobs? New Education centre? Extra revenue for local shops?

No good for the local community?

You'd make a great businessman

You've lost me now.

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So there's no real issue with the (re)development of any sports etc discussed here and wider afield.

Absolutely none, as long as it is acknowledged, and we don't get statements like "Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them".

True. Original quote 'Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them or which they didn't have to invest huge sums of money into.'

Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

No need to lose your temper LD, but you have a good point on spending beyond your means. Unfortunately not easy to solve as teams look to challenge and develop themselves.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

WTF are you going on about? Everyones acknowledged it, its a matter of public record

Honestly the language here!

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you believe tax should be spent on Dai?

Anything that helps the society and community in which it was raised.

So new jobs? New Education centre? Extra revenue for local shops?

No good for the local community?

You'd make a great businessman

You've lost me now.

The redevelopment created jobs in Belfast, at a time when jobs were hard to come back and still are

Part of the redevelopment is a new education centre that are aiming for every primary school child in NI to visit over the next few years

There are now more fans going to games, going to bars, restaurants, shops before and after games meaning businesses are doing better

Got it now?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Honestly the language here!

I wouldn't watch a Michael Conlan interview anytime soon then if I were you

That was utterly brilliant

Don't blame him at all

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you believe tax should be spent on Dai?

Anything that helps the society and community in which it was raised.

So new jobs? New Education centre? Extra revenue for local shops?

No good for the local community?

You'd make a great businessman

You've lost me now.

The redevelopment created jobs in Belfast, at a time when jobs were hard to come back and still are

Part of the redevelopment is a new education centre that are aiming for every primary school child in NI to visit over the next few years

There are now more fans going to games, going to bars, restaurants, shops before and after games meaning businesses are doing better

Got it now?

That's great. So Ulster did have large scale help, via UK taxpayers money to help redevelop their stadium. That's all I asked for clarification on.

It's topical and fun!

marty2086 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Honestly the language here!

I wouldn't watch a Michael Conlan interview anytime soon then if I were you

Was he annoyed at Pat Hickey?

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you believe tax should be spent on Dai?

Anything that helps the society and community in which it was raised.

So new jobs? New Education centre? Extra revenue for local shops?

No good for the local community?

You'd make a great businessman

You've lost me now.

The redevelopment created jobs in Belfast, at a time when jobs were hard to come back and still are

Part of the redevelopment is a new education centre that are aiming for every primary school child in NI to visit over the next few years

There are now more fans going to games, going to bars, restaurants, shops before and after games meaning businesses are doing better

Got it now?

That's great. So Ulster did have large scale help, via UK taxpayers money to help redevelop their stadium. That's all I asked for clarification on.

Why the need for clarification its public record