Munster Debts

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/irfu-chief-does-not-believe-munster-can-make-debt-repayments-1.2723985

Clearly Philip Browne didn't read the thread on here in which I was told the debts would be repaid without an issue.

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What do you believe tax should be spent on Dai?

Anything that helps the society and community in which it was raised.

So new jobs? New Education centre? Extra revenue for local shops?

No good for the local community?

You'd make a great businessman

You've lost me now.

The redevelopment created jobs in Belfast, at a time when jobs were hard to come back and still are

Part of the redevelopment is a new education centre that are aiming for every primary school child in NI to visit over the next few years

There are now more fans going to games, going to bars, restaurants, shops before and after games meaning businesses are doing better

Got it now?

That's great. So Ulster did have large scale help, via UK taxpayers money to help redevelop their stadium. That's all I asked for clarification on.

Why the need for clarification its public record

Because somebody typed:

"Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them"

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

You mean like when the WRU gave the regions an advance during the HC/ERCC arguments because they hadn't got their tv money yet?

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

Why don't they?

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

You mean like when the WRU gave the regions an advance during the HC/ERCC arguments because they hadn't got their tv money yet?

It was moneys owed to them wasn't it? But try and deflect away.

Irish Londoner wrote:But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

I think you will find that you are wrong, because Munster are struggling repay what they owe, they cannot keep up with they're repayments. So they are spending above their means.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

You mean like when the WRU gave the regions an advance during the HC/ERCC arguments because they hadn't got their tv money yet?

It was moneys owed to them wasn't it? But try and deflect away.

It wasn't paid to them yet though, they were spending money they didn't yet have

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

You mean like when the WRU gave the regions an advance during the HC/ERCC arguments because they hadn't got their tv money yet?

It was moneys owed to them wasn't it? But try and deflect away.

It wasn't paid to them yet though, they were spending money they didn't yet have

I genuinely think you need to start looking at what we are talking about before casting aspersions on others to try and detract from the case in point. The 2 are incomparable. Now I guess that you know that, and I think it's quite sad that you (and others) can't approach this topic with one morsel of impartiality and instead choose to mudsling at others in the hope it will somehow prove that Munster being 9m in debt has no bearing on anything. There you go, I think that says a lot about your psyche.

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

You mean like when the WRU gave the regions an advance during the HC/ERCC arguments because they hadn't got their tv money yet?

It was moneys owed to them wasn't it? But try and deflect away.

It wasn't paid to them yet though, they were spending money they didn't yet have

I genuinely think you need to start looking at what we are talking about before casting aspersions on others to try and detract from the case in point. The 2 are incomparable. Now I guess that you know that, and I think it's quite sad that you (and others) can't approach this topic with one morsel of impartiality and instead choose to mudsling at others in the hope it will somehow prove that Munster being 9m in debt has no bearing on anything. There you go, I think that says a lot about your psyche.

Ok so lets point out a few things, PhilBB disappears from here and you pop in, in his place rehashing his arguments and asking about things that are out there in public and somehow we are apparently the bad guys because we didn't validate what we clearly agreed with?

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

You mean like when the WRU gave the regions an advance during the HC/ERCC arguments because they hadn't got their tv money yet?

It was moneys owed to them wasn't it? But try and deflect away.

It wasn't paid to them yet though, they were spending money they didn't yet have

I genuinely think you need to start looking at what we are talking about before casting aspersions on others to try and detract from the case in point. The 2 are incomparable. Now I guess that you know that, and I think it's quite sad that you (and others) can't approach this topic with one morsel of impartiality and instead choose to mudsling at others in the hope it will somehow prove that Munster being 9m in debt has no bearing on anything. There you go, I think that says a lot about your psyche.

Ok so lets point out a few things, PhilBB disappears from here and you pop in, in his place rehashing his arguments and asking about things that are out there in public and somehow we are apparently the bad guys because we didn't validate what we clearly agreed with?

I think this is now the 3rd time I have had to say this....I do not know who this Phil character is. I am not him. He is not me.

Seriously then you either think the Munster situation i s bad for them or you put pressure on the Welsh teams to spend more and risk more.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So there's no real issue with the (re)development of any sports etc discussed here and wider afield.

Absolutely none, as long as it is acknowledged, and we don't get statements like "Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them".

True. Original quote 'Munster (& Ulster for that matter) do not have the luxury of having a stadium supplied to them or which they didn't have to invest huge sums of money into.'

That being of the comment seems to be forgotten.

Facts are Scarlets, Ospreys and Cardiff Blues did not have to invest 30m+ in developing their stadia. Someone else did it for them.

Heres a few question Dai

Dragons play at Rodney Parade, how much did Dragons put into the ground? Building or redeveloping?

Blues at The Arms Park?

Or heres the kicker how much public funds went towards the Liberty? Or Parc Y Scarlets? After all they are owned and operated by councils?

But no other team can rely on public funds for their stadiums?

Sin é wrote:

I thought they got a new pitch? OK if they didn't. Lets talk about the Liberty, Millenium & Scarlets being part funded by UK (i.e., includes NI taxpayer)?  

What UK funding did those stadiums get that included the NI Taxpayer?

It's the UK mate, we're stil one.Tax doesn't stay in the area to be spent only on your street.

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

1 - I'm not convinced that in the final analysis an established team would be left to go to the wall - would the SRU let Glasgow or Edinburgh go under ? Would the WRU let Scarlets ? I know there was the case of the Celtic Warriors but would it be fair to say that their collapse was more due to internal Welsh rugby politics than anything else  - seems to be the accusation raised on any "the valleys need their own team" threads ?
Outside of rugby a lot of football teams have gone into administration, the debts been written off and the club have continued pretty much unchanged on the stadium/playing side - Leicester City being one such example. Even clubs that are not actually at that stage are normally running large debts just to survive, either owed to a sugar daddy or to a bank or other investors. If every club that was running at a loss was told to clear its debts instantly or fold there would be about 10 football teams left in the whole of England ! And as for Saracens and Bath ?
2 - All leagues are to a greater or lesser extent an uneven playing field - Chelsea have more money that Swansea - is that fair ? What about the brother of Cardiffs owner sinking money into Merthyr in the Welsh league - no other team gets that amount of funding ?
If you win the Euromillions on Friday and decide to invest £20 million of it in Newport, pay the wages of four All Blacks and Newport win the PRO12 and ERC on the back of it is that fair ?

Dai Llewod wrote:

Sin é wrote:

I thought they got a new pitch? OK if they didn't. Lets talk about the Liberty, Millenium & Scarlets being part funded by UK (i.e., includes NI taxpayer)?  

What UK funding did those stadiums get that included the NI Taxpayer?

You do realise councils get grants every year from the Govt? Or they did until the Tories undid it

Its seems the Libertys may have been illegal too

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-25559959

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, can you all stop trying to be clever for minute. FFS, even a blind man can see what Dai Llewod is saying here. He has NO problem with Ulster having a money given to them by the tax payer for their stadium, what he is asking is for the Irish members on here to acknowledge the fact.

Now, can we please stop this stupid tax payers argument, and talk about how unfair it is that a team can spend beyond their means without reprisal ?

But they're not spending beyond their means, they are able to keep the club running and will pay off the debt at some point in the future in agreement with the people they owe the money to.

This is no different to what lots of other businesses do - or indeed what the UK government did to bail out the bankers. There's no point in collapsing a business that owes you money if as a result of that you don't get anything.

Other teams in the league simply do not have this facility. They would be shut down when they fail to make those payments.

1. Do you see this?
2. Do you think this makes the league an uneven playing field?

You mean like when the WRU gave the regions an advance during the HC/ERCC arguments because they hadn't got their tv money yet?

It was moneys owed to them wasn't it? But try and deflect away.

It wasn't paid to them yet though, they were spending money they didn't yet have

I genuinely think you need to start looking at what we are talking about before casting aspersions on others to try and detract from the case in point. The 2 are incomparable. Now I guess that you know that, and I think it's quite sad that you (and others) can't approach this topic with one morsel of impartiality and instead choose to mudsling at others in the hope it will somehow prove that Munster being 9m in debt has no bearing on anything. There you go, I think that says a lot about your psyche.

Ok so lets point out a few things, PhilBB disappears from here and you pop in, in his place rehashing his arguments and asking about things that are out there in public and somehow we are apparently the bad guys because we didn't validate what we clearly agreed with?

I think this is now the 3rd time I have had to say this....I do not know who this Phil character is. I am not him. He is not me.

It would have been more credible if you had said you did know who he is. His moaning about the Irish is hard to miss.

marty2086 wrote:Dragons play at Rodney Parade, how much did Dragons put into the ground? Building or redeveloping?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/Page/Content/268/stadium-development

marty2086 wrote:Blues at The Arms Park?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/multi-million-pound-redevelopment-cardiff-10577785


Here you go. All payed for by the owners. Not a tax payers ££ in sight.

Dai Llewod wrote:

Sin é wrote:

I thought they got a new pitch? OK if they didn't. Lets talk about the Liberty, Millenium & Scarlets being part funded by UK (i.e., includes NI taxpayer)?  

What UK funding did those stadiums get that included the NI Taxpayer?

Interesting that ''The clubs pay a peppercorn rent to the Swansea Stadium Management Company (SSMC) - a body running the stadium which is a partnership between the council and the two clubs.''

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Dragons play at Rodney Parade, how much did Dragons put into the ground? Building or redeveloping?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/Page/Content/268/stadium-development

marty2086 wrote:Blues at The Arms Park?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/multi-million-pound-redevelopment-cardiff-10577785


Here you go. All payed for by the owners. Not a tax payers ££ in sight.

And who owns the grounds? I never mentioned taxpayers

marty2086 wrote:And who owns the grounds?

The clubs. In those two cases.

Anyway, what has all this stadium and tax payers malarky got to do with a club spending beyond it's means without reprisal ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:And who owns the grounds?

The clubs. In those two cases.

'Cardiff Athletic Club (CAC), and its tenant, Cardiff Blues'

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, what has all this stadium and tax payers malarky got to do with a club spending beyond it's means without reprisal ?

Who said theres no reprisal?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:And who owns the grounds?

The clubs. In those two cases.

'Cardiff Athletic Club (CAC), and its tenant, Cardiff Blues'

Yes the Cardiff Athletics Club. Cardiff Blues lease it off them. But in the lease is the cost for the upgrades. I think Cardiff Blues pay £200K a year for it.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, what has all this stadium and tax payers malarky got to do with a club spending beyond it's means without reprisal ?

Who said theres no reprisal?

Well there is obviously no reprisal as Munster are carrying on regardless still paying top dollar for players and coaches. I have not seen any cut backs or trimming of expenditure.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, what has all this stadium and tax payers malarky got to do with a club spending beyond it's means without reprisal ?

Who said theres no reprisal?

Well there is obviously no reprisal as Munster are carrying on regardless still paying top dollar for players and coaches. I have not seen any cut backs or trimming of expenditure.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/munster-will-not-become-a-one-city-team-231009.html

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, what has all this stadium and tax payers malarky got to do with a club spending beyond it's means without reprisal ?

Who said theres no reprisal?

Well there is obviously no reprisal as Munster are carrying on regardless still paying top dollar for players and coaches. I have not seen any cut backs or trimming of expenditure.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/munster-will-not-become-a-one-city-team-231009.html

OK just read that. Can you please point me to where it says Munster are tightening their belts ?

What I did find interesting was this bit:-

Fitzgerald also revealed Munster were close to finding a shirt sponsor for next season, with Toyota Ireland having ended its nine-year association worth more than €13 million to the province at the end of this campaign.


Munster are set to lose out on €13 from Toyota, I hope they find an adequate replacement. Lets not forget Munster are not the European powerhouse they used to be 9 years ago.

In fact, it says that Munster are still going to spend regardless on a new state of the art training facility:-

Fitzgerald emphasised the decision to make UL the single training base had nothing to do with geography, but the quality of facilities available and the level of contribution from the bidder to funding those facilities, which, going on Leinster’s new state of the art base in Clonskeagh, Dublin, could cost in the region of €3.5m.

How much is that going to cost. Dai Llewod is correct in what he is saying.

Having two bases was costing twice as much to maintain, redeveloping one is actually cheaper in the long run. Its a discussion we have had here numerous times

How much is Leinsters new base going to cost? Maybe around 3.5m like you quoted?

And Dais right about what? That no other team gets that kind of help?

Except maybe the Dragons?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/News/Article/34490

marty2086 wrote:And Dais right about what? That no other team gets that kind of help?

Getting help, and living beyond your means are two different things though. Also, is Munster's new base going to be open to the public for use ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:And Dais right about what? That no other team gets that kind of help?

Getting help, and living beyond your means are two different things though. Also, is Munster's new base going to be open to the public for use ?

So Dragons are getting help but Munster are living beyond their means?

So Dragons could afford new facilities themselves then?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:And Dais right about what? That no other team gets that kind of help?

Getting help, and living beyond your means are two different things though. Also, is Munster's new base going to be open to the public for use ?

And..... will Munster share their sandwiches??? Greedy pigs those Munster folk.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:And Dais right about what? That no other team gets that kind of help?

Getting help, and living beyond your means are two different things though. Also, is Munster's new base going to be open to the public for use ?

So Dragons are getting help but Munster are living beyond their means?

So Dragons could afford new facilities themselves then?

Dragons are loaded

None of the Regions are in debt, of course. None have been 'living beyond their means' and Cardiff share all their pies.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, what has all this stadium and tax payers malarky got to do with a club spending beyond it's means without reprisal ?

Who said theres no reprisal?

Well there is obviously no reprisal as Munster are carrying on regardless still paying top dollar for players and coaches. I have not seen any cut backs or trimming of expenditure.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/munster-will-not-become-a-one-city-team-231009.html

OK just read that. Can you please point me to where it says Munster are tightening their belts ?

What I did find interesting was this bit:-

Fitzgerald also revealed Munster were close to finding a shirt sponsor for next season, with Toyota Ireland having ended its nine-year association worth more than €13 million to the province at the end of this campaign.


Munster are set to lose out on €13 from Toyota, I hope they find an adequate replacement. Lets not forget Munster are not the European powerhouse they used to be 9 years ago.

In fact, it says that Munster are still going to spend regardless on a new state of the art training facility:-

Fitzgerald emphasised the decision to make UL the single training base had nothing to do with geography, but the quality of facilities available and the level of contribution from the bidder to funding those facilities, which, going on Leinster’s new state of the art base in Clonskeagh, Dublin, could cost in the region of €3.5m.

How much is that going to cost. Dai Llewod is correct in what he is saying.

Is it now obvious that you will be saving money if you only have one training centre (2 sets of staff and two venues to rent).

That article is from 2013 - Toyota has been replaced by Bank of Ireland. Despite not being the powerhouse they were 10 years ago, Adidas are still their jersey sponsors and was still the best selling club jersey in the UK and Ireland 2 years ago (when last figures were available).

The new training centre is costing 9.5m and is funded by the University of Limerick.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:And Dais right about what? That no other team gets that kind of help?

Getting help, and living beyond your means are two different things though. Also, is Munster's new base going to be open to the public for use ?

The University of Limerick built it for Munster and and they have acquired the European franchise for an American corporate/sport training company which will use the Munster coaching staff (nutrition, fitness etc). in their programme.

The University of Limerick has extensive facilities which are open to the public. I'd imagine the facilities will be made available to team training camps though.

Thank you for a mature response Sin.

marty2086 wrote:Having two bases was costing twice as much to maintain, redeveloping one is actually cheaper in the long run. Its a discussion we have had here numerous times

How much is Leinsters new base going to cost? Maybe around 3.5m like you quoted?

And Dais right about what? That no other team gets that kind of help?

Except maybe the Dragons?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/News/Article/34490

It's well known the Dragons pay to use the facility. Players don't even get lunches apparently.

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Having two bases was costing twice as much to maintain, redeveloping one is actually cheaper in the long run. Its a discussion we have had here numerous times

How much is Leinsters new base going to cost? Maybe around 3.5m like you quoted?

And Dais right about what? That no other team gets that kind of help?

Except maybe the Dragons?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/News/Article/34490

It's well known the Dragons pay to use the facility. Players don't even get lunches apparently.

Apparently that doesnt matter to some though, there are differing standards depending what side of the Irish sea some are on

Just pointing out that no, the Dragons don't get that kind of help.

Stone Motif wrote:Just pointing out that no, the Dragons don't get that kind of help.

They pay rent, not to build it

Munster have missed two repayments to IRFU on the loan for Thomond. They've had a downturn undoubtedly in turnover linked to performance.

The coaching team has largely been replaced and "Head Office" have brought in/imposed a new coaching team with Erasmus & Co. They're on the payroll of IRFU.

They let 8 players go, and brought 4 players in for a squad of 41. Three Irish and the other a 22 year old South African. So the salary budget has tightened. (Leinster let 17 go and only 4 in to Squad of 42, Connacht 10 out, 7 in to squad of 43and Ulster 10 out, 6 into squad of 49.)

Asking why Munster haven't simply been wound up ignores what often happens in these circumstances.  And I say that based on personal experience.

I bought a company which involved borrowings of €8.5m approx. all told, including refurbishment of offices.  Everything was going grand until the recession hit in 08/09.  I sat down with the banks and negotiated a restructuring of the payments, took them through the business plan, and how it could be paid back in a longer term.  They sought some changes, wanted stricter financial management controls and reporting but agreed to the deal since I had a going concern that they viewed as sound albeit weathering an economic downturn.  We got on with running the business.  It's still going strong today.

Similarly Munster is not a basket case.  They still performed sufficiently to get into the main Euro comp this season. They can clearly point to two or three income events that will help to reduce the debt considerably in the next 18-24 months.  Why close it down now and lose that opportunity?  Their bank, in this instance, is the IRFU.  They charge interest on the loan so there's pain for Munster in missing its payments.  The union is also a vested interest as they act as both brake and oil on the type of business that Munster branch can bring into the stadium.   And, most importantly, the union has a lien on a €40m asset as a guarantee on the loan.

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Just pointing out that no, the Dragons don't get that kind of help.

They pay rent, not to build it

Righto. So we agree not at all the kind of help being discussed here then, which you just said it was.

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Just pointing out that no, the Dragons don't get that kind of help.

They pay rent, not to build it

Righto. So we agree not at all the kind of help being discussed here then, which you just said it was.

I never said that, I was saying some pick and chose the criteria depending on which side of the Irish sea we are talking about.

It was pointed out that Ulster benefitted from taxpayers funds something which other teams in the league don't get except for all the Welsh regions and every other team in the league

Marty, why are you trying to change the debate for ? We all acknowledge the "help", in fact, it was getting our Irish members to acknowledge it as well. Nobody has any problems with this.

The point still stands though, is it fair for clubs to spend beyond their means without reprisal ? Because that is what is happening here in the Pro12 with regards to Munster.

And in the Prem.

LordDowlais wrote:Marty, why are you trying to change the debate for ? We all acknowledge the "help", in fact, it was getting our Irish members to acknowledge it as well. Nobody has any problems with this.

The point still stands though, is it fair for clubs to spend beyond their means without reprisal ? Because that is what is happening here in the Pro12 with regards to Munster.

The owner of Munster didn't spend beyond its means. It made a 'profit' of 5 or 6m and has reserves of 60m+.

LordDowlais wrote:Marty, why are you trying to change the debate for ? We all acknowledge the "help", in fact, it was getting our Irish members to acknowledge it as well. Nobody has any problems with this.

The point still stands though, is it fair for clubs to spend beyond their means without reprisal ? Because that is what is happening here in the Pro12 with regards to Munster.

LD, Dai said no one else in the league benefits from taxpayer funds so again you are wrong

Who said there is no reprisal? You are making an assumption, the implications won't be known until the reports and AGMs next year or someone leaks it in the meantime

You say they are spending beyond their means, if that was the case they would go bust. How many clubs get money injected from their owners or unions?

As a 'business owner' have you ever renegotiated credit terms? This is what Munster will be doing with the IRFU

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Marty, why are you trying to change the debate for ? We all acknowledge the "help", in fact, it was getting our Irish members to acknowledge it as well. Nobody has any problems with this.

The point still stands though, is it fair for clubs to spend beyond their means without reprisal ? Because that is what is happening here in the Pro12 with regards to Munster.

The owner of Munster didn't spend beyond its means. It made a 'profit' of 5 or 6m and has reserves of 60m+.

Sin, the IRFU aren't the owners they are financial backers though

They have a capital interest in the success and continuation of Munster as a business