Munster Debts

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/irfu-chief-does-not-believe-munster-can-make-debt-repayments-1.2723985

Clearly Philip Browne didn't read the thread on here in which I was told the debts would be repaid without an issue.

Sin é wrote:Scarlets: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £12,654,426.
Ospreys: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £5,247,340.
Blues: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,542,497
Dragons: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,448,992

That debt is manageable though, Munster are not managing their debt. They have already missed payments.If they have debt at all. That's the difference.

So the facts are:

Teams in Wales and Northern Ireland have both benefited from UK taxpayer funding, either from central government, local government or grant funds.

Munster have had difficulties paying for their stadium so have rescheduled their payments to resolve this, given that the alternative was to foreclose on the loan, closing the team down and leaving the creditors with ownership of a large sports stadium which has no alternative tenant then the present incumbents. Therefore it makes both business and common sense to reach an agreement to allow Munster to continue to function as a going concern, so that the debt will eventually be paid back.

As a going concern and having resolved the debt repayment issue Munster are continuing to operate as a normal business would, recruiting staff (players), entering into partnerships with other organisations, and generally "business as usual" - exactly the same way that thousands of business who have borrowings to repay do across the world.

And the issue is ?

Pot Hale wrote:I didn't agree with that comment at all, I made no comment on that post. Check your facts, LD.

Ok I apologise. I saw a comment, "nail on the head". I must have my posts in twist.

Cardiff Blues Bank: BankOfBluesDirectors

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:If they had a choice between their owners and banks why wouldn't they get it from their owners?

If their owners could afford it. But even then, the owners cannot compete with a whole country.

But they are looking after 4 Provinces (and lots of other responsibilities as well such as developing sport, building stadia etc)

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The privately owned clubs receive money/support from the WRU. So do the other clubs in the league from their unions.

Not in Wales they don't. The WRU pay 60% towards the players they use for team Wales, then that's it.

The childish bit is when marty resorts to comments like these and you agree with him:-

"He seems to be twisting himself in knots to say Munster and the IRFU are bad"

The WRU pays money to regions for test players. So they do receive money from the WRU.

Who owns the Millennium stadium, and does the WRU charge the regions the same market commercial rate when they use it for events like Judgement Day? Who pays for the promotion and marketing of these events?

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Scarlets: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £12,654,426.
Ospreys: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £5,247,340.
Blues: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,542,497
Dragons: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,448,992

That debt is manageable though, Munster are not managing their debt. They have already missed payments.If they have debt at all. That's the difference.

?
How do you know Munster are not managing their debt?

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Scarlets: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £12,654,426.
Ospreys: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £5,247,340.
Blues: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,542,497
Dragons: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,448,992

That debt is manageable though, Munster are not managing their debt. They have already missed payments.If they have debt at all. That's the difference.

They missed two payments, I think? Would you reposes a home for missing two payments? Would you bankrupt a business for missing two payments?

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The privately owned clubs receive money/support from the WRU. So do the other clubs in the league from their unions.

Not in Wales they don't. The WRU pay 60% towards the players they use for team Wales, then that's it.

The childish bit is when marty resorts to comments like these and you agree with him:-

"He seems to be twisting himself in knots to say Munster and the IRFU are bad"

The WRU pays money to regions for test players.  So they do receive money from the WRU.

Who owns the Millennium stadium, and does the WRU charge the regions the same market commercial rate when they use it for events like Judgement Day?  Who pays for the promotion and marketing of these events?

According to that article they

The WRU is also working on a new funding agreement that promises to provide an additional £2m shared between the regions per season over the next five years.

Just a thought, during the WRU/PRW wars, wasn't there a lot of criticism of the WRU for insisting on paying back the debt on the Millennium Stadium as quickly as possible and that they should reschedule and reduce the payments to give the clubs more money ?

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Scarlets: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £12,654,426.
Ospreys: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £5,247,340.
Blues: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,542,497
Dragons: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,448,992

That debt is manageable though, Munster are not managing their debt. They have already missed payments.If they have debt at all. That's the difference.

They missed two payments, I think? Would you reposes a home for missing two payments? Would you bankrupt a business for missing two payments?

I know, you'd swear that Munster were spunking all their money on player wages! Scarlets has serious debt and no assets unlike Munster who own two stadia.

Irish Londoner wrote:So the facts are:

Teams in Wales and Northern Ireland have both benefited from UK taxpayer funding, either from central government, local government or grant funds.

Munster have had difficulties paying for their stadium so have rescheduled their payments to resolve this, given that the alternative was to foreclose on the loan, closing the team down and leaving the creditors with ownership of a large sports stadium which has no alternative tenant then the present incumbents. Therefore it makes both business and common sense to reach an agreement to allow Munster to continue to function as a going concern, so that the debt will eventually be paid back.

As a going concern and having resolved the debt repayment issue Munster are continuing to operate as a normal business would, recruiting staff (players), entering into partnerships with other organisations, and generally "business as usual" - exactly the same way that thousands of business who have borrowings to repay do across the world.

And the issue is ?

Not a bad summary. Except IRFU co-own the stadium with Munster Branch currently. If Munster Branch don't or are unable to pay, then the stadium reverts to the IRFU in its entirety under the terms of the loan agreement. Munster would then have to rent it.

Munster have reduced their senior squad for this season. By my quick estimation, I think they now have the smallest or one of the smallest senior squads in the league (41). Welsh regions have 48-51 on their books.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who is being childish? You are the one who can't grasp it all

So what do you suggest owners do? Sit back and let businesses do their thing and never put money into them?

You do realise that every owner of every team in the league has done it at some point in some form or other?

Oh I can grasp it quite easily.

It is you and Pot Hale who are not grasping it.

Look, I understand every club needs to have money put into it, but the whole ethos of it is not fair. Privately owned clubs can only put in money that they can afford. Union owned clubs can have money from the cash cow that is international rugby. After knowing what members are like on this forum, I will take Sin e 's word on how things work, and in Ireland the IRFU own the teams, except Ulster, which seems very sketchy to say the least. Anyway, we have private clubs competing against whole unions, this is massively unfair, and Dai Llewod is correct when he points this out.

Time to give up. It's just futile trying to explain that there is not a level playing field in the Pro12. If you suggest that, then it seems that it needs to be accompanied by written proof / evidence.

There's never a level playing field in any sport.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:If they had a choice between their owners and banks why wouldn't they get it from their owners?

If their owners could afford it. But even then, the owners cannot compete with a whole country.

Just a question, the WRU must have roughly the same amount of income as Ireland, in terms of TV money, attendances/match ticket sales, merchandise sales, corporate income etc.

Ireland appear to be spending it on their PRO12 teams - either as direct grant or as loans, so what are the WRU doing with it ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's never a level playing field in any sport.

Of course there is.

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The privately owned clubs receive money/support from the WRU. So do the other clubs in the league from their unions.

Not in Wales they don't. The WRU pay 60% towards the players they use for team Wales, then that's it.

The childish bit is when marty resorts to comments like these and you agree with him:-

"He seems to be twisting himself in knots to say Munster and the IRFU are bad"

You think that's childish?

You started out hat Munster should be wound up and asking why they haven't. I pointed it out and you still wanted to know why they hadn't been.

Now you've moved on to they don't really owe the money but now its just all unfair

So its hardly childish pointing out how you are twisting yourself around to come to a conclusion that has you outraged at Munster rugby

Dai Llewod wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who is being childish? You are the one who can't grasp it all

So what do you suggest owners do? Sit back and let businesses do their thing and never put money into them?

You do realise that every owner of every team in the league has done it at some point in some form or other?

Oh I can grasp it quite easily.

It is you and Pot Hale who are not grasping it.

Look, I understand every club needs to have money put into it, but the whole ethos of it is not fair. Privately owned clubs can only put in money that they can afford. Union owned clubs can have money from the cash cow that is international rugby. After knowing what members are like on this forum, I will take Sin e 's word on how things work, and in Ireland the IRFU own the teams, except Ulster, which seems very sketchy to say the least. Anyway, we have private clubs competing against whole unions, this is massively unfair, and Dai Llewod is correct when he points this out.

Time to give up.  It's just futile trying to explain that there is not a level playing field in the Pro12. If you suggest that, then it seems that it needs to be accompanied by written proof / evidence.

Dai - if that's all you were trying to say,then all you had to do was say it. I wouldn't disagree with you.

It's self evident that the different clubs operate under different structures and ownership. Those structures and ownerships have benefits and disadvantages for each entity.

It's the same in other leagues too.

Dai Llewod wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who is being childish? You are the one who can't grasp it all

So what do you suggest owners do? Sit back and let businesses do their thing and never put money into them?

You do realise that every owner of every team in the league has done it at some point in some form or other?

Oh I can grasp it quite easily.

It is you and Pot Hale who are not grasping it.

Look, I understand every club needs to have money put into it, but the whole ethos of it is not fair. Privately owned clubs can only put in money that they can afford. Union owned clubs can have money from the cash cow that is international rugby. After knowing what members are like on this forum, I will take Sin e 's word on how things work, and in Ireland the IRFU own the teams, except Ulster, which seems very sketchy to say the least. Anyway, we have private clubs competing against whole unions, this is massively unfair, and Dai Llewod is correct when he points this out.

Time to give up.  It's just futile trying to explain that there is not a level playing field in the Pro12. If you suggest that, then it seems that it needs to be accompanied by written proof / evidence.

He didn't say it was an unlevel playing field, he said its unfair and disregards all the facts that contradict his opinion

The truth is its professional sport and it is never a level playing field

Dai Llewod wrote: Time to give up.  It's just futile trying to explain that there is not a level playing field in the Pro12. If you suggest that, then it seems that it needs to be accompanied by written proof / evidence.

Of course there's not a level playing field in the PRO12, no-one has suggested that there is, there's not a level playing field in any professional sport - haven't noticed anyone Welsh here moaning that Merthyr are going to ruin the Welsh League by having a wealthy backer,  in fact most of the comments seemed to be gloating that Ponty were getting their comeuppance.

If you want to level the playing field get WRU/PRW to put more money in, not demand that other unions spend less.

Pot Hale wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who is being childish? You are the one who can't grasp it all

So what do you suggest owners do? Sit back and let businesses do their thing and never put money into them?

You do realise that every owner of every team in the league has done it at some point in some form or other?

Oh I can grasp it quite easily.

It is you and Pot Hale who are not grasping it.

Look, I understand every club needs to have money put into it, but the whole ethos of it is not fair. Privately owned clubs can only put in money that they can afford. Union owned clubs can have money from the cash cow that is international rugby. After knowing what members are like on this forum, I will take Sin e 's word on how things work, and in Ireland the IRFU own the teams, except Ulster, which seems very sketchy to say the least. Anyway, we have private clubs competing against whole unions, this is massively unfair, and Dai Llewod is correct when he points this out.

Time to give up.  It's just futile trying to explain that there is not a level playing field in the Pro12. If you suggest that, then it seems that it needs to be accompanied by written proof / evidence.

Dai - if that's all you were trying to say,then all you had to do was say it.  I wouldn't disagree with you.

It's self evident that the different clubs operate under different structures and ownership.   Those structures and ownerships have benefits and disadvantages for each entity.  

It's the same in other leagues too.  

That's all my point ever was. But it is such a huge advantage that it outweighs anything else. With a Union as big as IRFU and with 4 teams in the league. It is completely skewed with the resources they have. It's a model that probably works well for the Irish and Scottish, but put into context, any non Union owned team is destined to fail comparatively, as they are effectively working as a team of 1 instead of a team of 5 like the Irish (4 provinces plus Union).

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's never a level playing field in any sport.

Of course there is.

Name one please.

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's never a level playing field in any sport.

Of course there is.

really? Where are you thinking?

Irish Londoner wrote:
If you want to level the playing field get WRU/PRW to put more money in, not demand that other unions spend less.

That wouldn't level the playing field of the Pro12. The league is owned and run by the Unions. Therefore any non Union owned team basically has no say in how it is run. Can you not see how that is a completely huge disadvantage to non Union owned teams? If you can't then as I said any conversation around it is completely futile.

Dai Llewod wrote:

That's all my point ever was. But it is such a huge advantage that it outweighs anything else. With a Union as big as IRFU and with 4 teams in the league. It is completely skewed with the resources they have. It's a model that probably works well for the Irish and Scottish, but put into context, any non Union owned team is destined to fail comparatively, as they are effectively working as a team of 1 instead of a team of 5 like the Irish (4 provinces plus Union).

Your right its not fair, private teams have to focus their resources on one team, the IRFU have to split theirs 4 ways

Cheating Welsh!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's never a level playing field in any sport.

Of course there is.

really? Where are you thinking?

Aviva Premiership (bar any salary cap breach that has yet to be proved of course)
Top14
English Premier League

Almost every other one.

Dai Llewod wrote:That's all my point ever was. But it is such a huge advantage that it outweighs anything else. With a Union as big as IRFU and with 4 teams in the league. It is completely skewed with the resources they have. It's a model that probably works well for the Irish and Scottish, but put into context, any non Union owned team is destined to fail comparatively, as they are effectively working as a team of 1 instead of a team of 5 like the Irish (4 provinces plus Union).

Then surely the thing for Wales do to is follow Ireland and Scotland's (and New Zealand's) model rather than wanting them to move to the Welsh one ?

And I've asked above, IRFU and WRU have roughly similar incomes so what are the WRU doing with their income if Ireland are spending on their teams ?

Irish Londoner wrote:

Then surely the thing for Wales do to is follow Ireland and Scotland's (and New Zealand's) model rather than wanting them to move to the Welsh one ?

1. They don''t have the money
2. It would be a disaster as you'd lose 25k fans overnight.

And I've asked above, IRFU and WRU have roughly similar incomes so what are the WRU doing with their income if Ireland are spending on their teams ?

Historically the debt has been paid off instead.

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's never a level playing field in any sport.

Of course there is.

really? Where are you thinking?

Aviva Premiership (bar any salary cap breach that has yet to be proved of course)
Top14
English Premier League

Almost every other one.

Eh? You mean the league where the winners are 45 mil in debt at last count?

English Prem in football? There's no debt there is there! Laughable examples.

Dai Llewod wrote: English Premier League.

As you sure ? So Swansea compete on the same level playing field as Manchester City ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Eh? You mean the league where the winners are 45 mil in debt at last count?

English Prem in football? There's no debt there is there! Laughable examples.

You're very confused. All of the teams in those leagues have the same set of restrictions. If their owners want to get into debt they can. If they don't, then they don't have to. If they want to go to a bank to borrow money they can. If they do, they have to adhere to the repayment contract.

West Bromwich Albion aren't, as far as I'm aware owned by the English FA, borrowed money from them, had their original repayment scheme altered to compensate their gross financial mismanagement etc etc etc

Is it sinking in?

Irish Londoner wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote: English Premier League.

As you sure ? So Swansea compete on the same level playing field as Manchester City ?

Of course they do. Tell me what is different other than the figures involved.

Dai Llewod wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote: English Premier League.

As you sure ? So Swansea compete on the same level playing field as Manchester City ?

Of course they do. Tell me what is different other than the figures involved.

Thats exactly the point that was being made, that other teams cant compete with the IRFUs finances

Keep up would you

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Eh? You mean the league where the winners are 45 mil in debt at last count?

English Prem in football? There's no debt there is there! Laughable examples.

You're very confused. All of the teams in those leagues have the same set of restrictions. If their owners want to get into debt they can. If they don't, then they don't have to. If they want to go to a bank to borrow money they can. If they do, they have to adhere to the repayment contract.

West Bromwich Albion aren't, as far as I'm aware owned by the English FA, borrowed money from them, had their original repayment scheme altered to compensate their gross financial mismanagement etc etc etc

Is it sinking in?

So just to confirm it's not possible for Scarletts etc to get in debt?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Eh? You mean the league where the winners are 45 mil in debt at last count?

English Prem in football? There's no debt there is there! Laughable examples.

You're very confused. All of the teams in those leagues have the same set of restrictions. If their owners want to get into debt they can. If they don't, then they don't have to. If they want to go to a bank to borrow money they can. If they do, they have to adhere to the repayment contract.

West Bromwich Albion aren't, as far as I'm aware owned by the English FA, borrowed money from them, had their original repayment scheme altered to compensate their gross financial mismanagement etc etc etc

Is it sinking in?

So just to confirm it's not possible for Scarletts etc to get in debt?

? I have no idea why you've claimed that.

Futile

Nice to know you are back to your old self Phil

So you're saying Scarletts can get in debt then Dai? So they're the same as Munster then.

Dai Llewod wrote: 2. It would be a disaster as you'd lose 25k fans overnight.

Go on then, I'm intrigued - why would 25K fans stop supporting their team because of a change of ownership ?

I don't know what all the fuss is about. The Aviva Stadium and Millennium stadium was also given public money. That trickles down to the provinces and regions. The point I'm making is it isn't black and white. Its a grey area.

Toulon are given millions per season from their city council and many French clubs' were handed stadiums. Giving public money to private sports teams doesn't feel right, to me but I'm not going to worry about how a foreign team is funded.

Sin é wrote:Scarlets: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £12,654,426.
Ospreys: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £5,247,340.
Blues: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,542,497
Dragons: Bank Overdraft and longterm loans for 2015: £1,448,992

Wow, I'd be more concerned about the Scarlets than Munster.

profitius wrote:
Toulon are given millions per season from their city council and many French clubs' were handed stadiums. Giving public money to private sports teams doesn't feel right, to me but I'm not going to worry about how a foreign team is funded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcwJt4bcnXs

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's never a level playing field in any sport.

Of course there is.

really? Where are you thinking?

Aviva Premiership (bar any salary cap breach that has yet to be proved of course)
Top14
English Premier League

Almost every other one.

Get a grip, man

Dai Llewod wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Who is being childish? You are the one who can't grasp it all

So what do you suggest owners do? Sit back and let businesses do their thing and never put money into them?

You do realise that every owner of every team in the league has done it at some point in some form or other?

Oh I can grasp it quite easily.

It is you and Pot Hale who are not grasping it.

Look, I understand every club needs to have money put into it, but the whole ethos of it is not fair. Privately owned clubs can only put in money that they can afford. Union owned clubs can have money from the cash cow that is international rugby. After knowing what members are like on this forum, I will take Sin e 's word on how things work, and in Ireland the IRFU own the teams, except Ulster, which seems very sketchy to say the least. Anyway, we have private clubs competing against whole unions, this is massively unfair, and Dai Llewod is correct when he points this out.

Time to give up.  It's just futile trying to explain that there is not a level playing field in the Pro12. If you suggest that, then it seems that it needs to be accompanied by written proof / evidence.

Dai - if that's all you were trying to say,then all you had to do was say it.  I wouldn't disagree with you.

It's self evident that the different clubs operate under different structures and ownership.   Those structures and ownerships have benefits and disadvantages for each entity.  

It's the same in other leagues too.  

That's all my point ever was. But it is such a huge advantage that it outweighs anything else. With a Union as big as IRFU and with 4 teams in the league. It is completely skewed with the resources they have. It's a model that probably works well for the Irish and Scottish, but put into context, any non Union owned team is destined to fail comparatively, as they are effectively working as a team of 1 instead of a team of 5 like the Irish (4 provinces plus Union).

I said each entity has benefits and disadvantages.

The privately owned clubs have benefits and advantages for their owners too in dealing with financial losses and write-offs against other businesses. They can also choose to work against their union, and ally themselves with other private sector interests when it suits them. They can reduce their players salary bill by letting players go when they want. They get paid for players playing test matches. They operate under PRW and negotiate as four when it suits them. They have collective representation. They attract more TV money for their regions. And they receive funding from the WRU which is due to be increased. They participate in more competitions such as Singha Sevens and AW Cup, and have a much bigger audience on their doorstep.

I've not really been following this thread but is has certainly lead to a number of reports being generated, so I have a simple question -

At 7 pages long is this thread worth continuing with or should it be locked and everyone moves on?

Not sure there's much point, a couple of posters will only move on to creating another thread about the dastardly IRFU/Provinces/Irish.

Like Munchkin said and Im sure the sensitive soul that's reporting things will do the same there

If some people can grasp the idea of how professional teams operate It ay be worth leaving open

RDW_Scotland wrote:I've not really been following this thread but is has certainly lead to a number of reports being generated, so I have a simple question -

At 7 pages long is this thread worth continuing with or should it be locked and everyone moves on?

Excellent suggestion. Lock it up and move on.

Everyone has said their piece. Nothing else to add.

If certain members stopped accusing people of having dual memberships on here and debated maturely instead of always trying to win the internet then we could all get along fine. Instead, we point out a few issues, and all of a sudden it's all about the nasty cheating Irish, except it's only the Irish claiming that.

LordDowlais wrote:If certain members stopped accusing people of having dual memberships on here and debated maturely instead of always trying to win the internet then we could all get along fine. Instead, we point out a few issues, and all of a sudden it's all about the nasty cheating Irish, except it's only the Irish claiming that.

Except that's exactly what you did, you switched your argument to reach the conclusion everythings biased for Munster

OK, this is getting locked!