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England v Pakistan: 2nd Test,

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England v Pakistan: 2nd Test, - Page 3 Empty England v Pakistan: 2nd Test,

Post by LondonTiger Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:05 am

First topic message reminder :

Location:

Old Trafford (Manchester)


Date:

22nd to 26th July 2016


Officials:

Match Umpires: Rod Tucker (Aus), Kumar Dharmasena (SL)
3rd Umpire: Joel Wilson (WI)
Referee: Richie Richardson (WI)



Media Coverage

TV Live: Sky Sports 2 from 10am daily.
TV Highlights: 1 hour shou Channel 5 20:00 daily. 2 hour show Sky Sports various times and channels
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England v Pakistan: 2nd Test, - Page 3 Weathe10


Teams:

England:
Alastair Cook (capt), Alex Hales, Joe Root, James Vince, Gary Ballance, Ben Stokes, Jonny Bairstow (wk), Moeen Ali, Chris Woakes, Stuart Broad, James Anderson


Pakistan:
Mohammad Hafeez, Shan Masood, Azhar Ali, Younus Khan, Misbah-ul-Haq (capt), Asad Shafiq, Sarfraz Ahmed (wk), Wahab Riaz, Mohammad Amir, Rahat Ali, Yasir Shah.


Last edited by LondonTiger on Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:55 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Finn and Ball removed)

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Post by guildfordbat Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:37 pm

trebellbobaggins wrote:Seeing lots of tweets from Pakistan fans on Twitter complaining it's a flat dead pitch.  I guess we'll know for sure after both have batted.

Someone also called root boring and that's just stupid.

Trebs - stupid indeed. Even if it is a flat dead pitch, we're playing it near perfectly. Piling on the runs and wearing down the opposition. Pakistan unlikely to find batting too comfortable after so long out in the field. All part of the game.

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Post by trebellbobaggins Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:40 pm

Well indeed, they'd be grinding us down the same way and indeed have done.

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Post by alfie Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:41 pm

Have got a bit bogged down this last half hour...Pakistan successfully slowing things with the old outside-the-leg-stump line from Azhar and an understandably defensive field.

England making it clear they aren't looking to close early (despite the commentators' wishes ) ; but are rather looking to keep Pakistan out there until the last hour of the day.
533 at tea. Surely they'll cut loose after the tea and biscuits...

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Post by jimbohammers Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:42 pm

So so boring. Still blocking it against part time leg spin Doh

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Post by Gooseberry Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:04 pm

Dont think theres anything massively unexpected about this other than thatvengland have collectively got over thier panic regarding quality spin.
The fragility in the middle order is still there but the depth to the batting is remarkable.

Although Pakistan have 4 good bowlers only having 3 seamers, and 2 of those relying heavily on pace, has meant they have had to use the spinners more than they might have wanted. Almost half the overs, and the super majority being shah is a big ask when things arent going his way. First test it paid off for them, this one its left them looking short of options.

Tosses have been huge in both games.

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Post by msp83 Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:19 pm

The track hasn't had anything much for bowlers so far. And England batsmen applied themselves very well.
If the track stays the same for tomorrow and beyond, it has to be an absolute useless flat monster.
But I have a feeling even if the track stays more or less the same Pakistan are going to be done in by scoreboard pressure here.

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Post by alfie Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:20 pm

Gone into overdrive since tea...

As I expected. Good planning I reckon.

But now Root gone for 254 ...well played clap Good catch in the end , too.

Bairstow will push on , and don't think Moeen will be blocking many...

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Post by msp83 Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:24 pm

A very good innings from Root. His test highest so far, 254.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:25 pm

28 overs left in the day, less 2 for the change of innings. Bat another 7 and give 'em 19 tonight would be my anorak call. Smile

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Post by guildfordbat Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:32 pm

Bairstow goes and there comes the declaration. Bit earlier than I thought, leaving 24 overs to bowl today. Suspect the next hour and three quarters will play a large part in the result of this Test.

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Post by trebellbobaggins Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:35 pm

Would have been nice to see 600 witten up on the board but it is as near as damn it.

Should put some pressure on Pakistan.

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Post by alfie Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:39 pm

Yes I think they intended to bat a bit longer ...but when Jonny followed young Joe out I imagine Cook preferred to see Broad and Anderson with ball in hand rather than wasting energy scrambling a few more runs.
Pakistan bats will be hoping fervently the opening pair can allow the rest to keep their tired feet up...

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Post by trebellbobaggins Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:40 pm

Yes they are depending a lot on their openers here. Should be interesting.

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Post by dyrewolfe Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:09 pm

Would have preferred to see another 20-30 on the board before the declaration, but 589 is still a formidable total.

Provided our bowlers can keep things tight and find the edge at least once an over, it should crank up the pressure on Pakistan and maybe force some errors.
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Post by trebellbobaggins Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:18 pm

Not looking easy to bowl here at all.  Going to very hard to move either for these.

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Post by alfie Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:21 pm

So far , Pakistan openers have left the ball or defended it very well. Just that one that was popped back nearly to Jimmy , and a couple just past the edge...but otherwise they've looked pretty safe.

Could be hard work here for England. Would have hoped to grab one in ten overs but nothing yet...will want a couple out tonight or tomorrow might be a long day...

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Post by trebellbobaggins Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:35 pm

Good bowling. Nice response to getting walloped for 4.

Lot of application needed this innings I think on a bat friendly surface. Get a few out and scoreboard pressure might take effect.

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Post by dyrewolfe Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:45 pm

Good start - always nice to get an early wicket. Another one before close of play would set things up nicely for tomorrow.
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Post by trebellbobaggins Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:03 pm

2 down now. I'm sure England will feel that's a good return before the close.

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Post by alfie Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:04 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Good start - always nice to get an early wicket. Another one before close of play would set things up nicely for tomorrow.

And there it is ! Azhar c&b

Woakes having another good match OK

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Post by dyrewolfe Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:11 pm

alfie wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Good start - always nice to get an early wicket. Another one before close of play would set things up nicely for tomorrow.

And there it is !  Azhar c&b

Woakes having another good match OK


That lad can do no wrong at the moment...long may it continue! thumbsup
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:12 pm

Three down, that was a horrible innings from Younis, didn't look comfortable at all.

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Post by alfie Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:13 pm

Three down now ! Stokes strangles Younus down the leg side ...

Pakistan in disarray .

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Post by dyrewolfe Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:14 pm

Oh wow - Pakistan 3 down now...Younis edging behind. Never looked comfortable.

Stokes joins the party and Pakistan are now 48-3.

Mountain to climb now...England well and truly on top. Think scoreboard pressure could see Pakistan crumble tomorrow, unless they can get some early runs to settle their nerves.
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Post by alfie Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:18 pm

Nearly a Perfect Day for England.

Might have ended up declaring fifteen minutes earlier than planned ...but that has worked to their advantage. Three down in twenty three overs is just what they wanted...and probably more than they expected.

Uphill now for Pakistan.

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Post by dyrewolfe Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:21 pm

Lordy!

Awful shot by nightwatchman Rahat gives Woakes his 3rd wicket. Pakistan 53-4.

Chased a bouncer and ended up sending it straight to Ballance.
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Post by alfie Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:25 pm

Four now.  Good bowling to the nightwatchman  clap

Glad I sat up to the end tonight.

Excellent day for England.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:28 pm

Despite not agreeing with the decisions last night, the difference in quality between the two nightwatchmen was stark; I see no benefit in sending somebody out who can't bat and is a walking wicket.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:29 pm

Excellent day indeed, Alfie.

Once more a nightwatchman proves more helpful to the bowling side than the batting side. Don't like 'em and never have.

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Post by dyrewolfe Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:33 pm

Think England will be enforcing the follow-on tomorrow unless Masood and Misbah can produce some Cook & Root type heroics. Not much in the Pakistan batting after those two.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:46 pm

As I popped on here to give my thoughts on the day I was just thinking to myself that guildford would be commenting on his dislike of nightwatchmen. In a world which at times seriously scares me guildford's views reprent an admirable and welcome anchor of constant calm Very Happy

I shall play Devil's advocate here and suggest that Pakistan will still much rather it was Rahat Ali dismissed by that very nasty bouncer from Woakes than captain Misbah. Given how unconvincingly Misbah very nearly holed out in similar fashion to his second ball, it's not beyond the realms of fantasy that Misbah could have fallen had he needed to face another over or two.

Enough of Devil's advocate. Pakistan have used Rahat as a nightwatchman twice now, and both times he's failed to see out the day, getting out to ordinary shots. As I said yesterday, a nightwatchman only works if he has a certain technical competence. Guys like Anderson and Finn have done the job well for England in the past because they are (were, in Anderson's case I guess) technically solid as batsmen. Woakes is another who is well suited to the role, while I wouldn't want Broad in the role. Rahat is clearly not competent enough to carry out the role, so if Pakistan do fancy a nightwatchman they should turn to Yasir Shah or Amir at a pinch.

Anyway, three late wickets definitely made it a great little session for England (Pakistan would have been OK with being one down you feel). Woakes seems to have a golden arm at the moment for sure, while Younus looks like a man whose best days are behind him unfortunately. Masood, who I haven't really rated before now, has played quite nicely after a bit of a dodgy start, and a lot rests on him, Misbah and Shafiq (stating the bleeding obvious).

Oh, and of course a marvelous knock from Root clap clap with able support from Woakes, Stokes and Bairstow. Think Stokes did glove that one actually, the mark on hotspot gets a bit bigger after the ball passes the bat, there's a bit of a spike on snicko, and you can see a small deflection from front on IMO. I felt there was just enough evidence to overturn the decision, but could have understood it going the other way.

Tomorrow may well bring the follow-on question, which I'll let guildford lead the debate on Very Happy

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:12 pm

Have to admit Chris Woakes becoming Jacques Kallis is something I didn't see 2016 throwing at us
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Post by guildfordbat Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:20 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:As I popped on here to give my thoughts on the day I was just thinking to myself that guildford would be commenting on his dislike of nightwatchmen. In a world which at times seriously scares me guildford's views reprent an admirable and welcome anchor of constant calm Very Happy

I shall play Devil's advocate here and suggest that Pakistan will still much rather it was Rahat Ali dismissed by that very nasty bouncer from Woakes than captain Misbah. Given how unconvincingly Misbah very nearly holed out in similar fashion to his second ball, it's not beyond the realms of fantasy that Misbah could have fallen had he needed to face another over or two.

Enough of Devil's advocate. Pakistan have used Rahat as a nightwatchman twice now, and both times he's failed to see out the day, getting out to ordinary shots. As I said yesterday, a nightwatchman only works if he has a certain technical competence. Guys like Anderson and Finn have done the job well for England in the past because they are (were, in Anderson's case I guess) technically solid as batsmen. Woakes is another who is well suited to the role, while I wouldn't want Broad in the role. Rahat is clearly not competent enough to carry out the role, so if Pakistan do fancy a nightwatchman they should turn to Yasir Shah or Amir at a pinch.

Anyway, three late wickets definitely made it a great little session for England (Pakistan would have been OK with being one down you feel). Woakes seems to have a golden arm at the moment for sure, while Younus looks like a man whose best days are behind him unfortunately. Masood, who I haven't really rated before now, has played quite nicely after a bit of a dodgy start, and a lot rests on him, Misbah and Shafiq (stating the bleeding obvious).

Oh, and of course a marvelous knock from Root clap clap with able support from Woakes, Stokes and Bairstow. Think Stokes did glove that one actually, the mark on hotspot gets a bit bigger after the ball passes the bat, there's a bit of a spike on snicko, and you can see a small deflection from front on IMO. I felt there was just enough evidence to overturn the decision, but could have understood it going the other way.

Tomorrow may well bring the follow-on question, which I'll let guildford lead the debate on Very Happy
Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh clap clap clap clap
Brilliant. I'll comment further if I ever stop laughing. Very Happy

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Post by KP_fan Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:31 pm

Will Eng enforce follow-on tomm ? Shocked Shocked
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Post by GSC Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:41 pm

Depends how long. If they're still out there past tea imagine Cook will bat again.
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Post by guildfordbat Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:42 pm

MfC - I trust this will be equally calming and to confirm a couple of points. Wink

I accept there are sides to the nightwatchman argument. I though come down firmly with the view that the batsman captain has to back himself when his team are 48/3 and needing another 300 plus to avoid the follow on.

I hope that when this Test is completed, Cook will be asked about Woakes as nightwatchman. Taking my lead from Alfie, I didn't so much see him as a nightwatchman but more a late middle order batsman being promoted for match purposes. That's different to my mind as to how a nightwatchman is typically envisaged. It would be interesting to hear Cook's views.

As a further oasis of predictability, I would also encourage the follow on to be enforced. What follows are my general views - there may occasionally be exceptions but not often and not here.

When you have the opposition down, don't let off - go for the throat. If we get the remaining 6 first innings wickets by tea, we'll have been in the field for less than a day - that's no problem for our bowlers.

If it takes longer, that's not so good but I would still enforce (assuming we can). Around 3 days will be up by then and some rain is forecast - match tactics should not be determined by weather forecast but it shouldn't be totally disregarded either, think we've agreed on that before. The main issue, as I see it, in choosing to bat a second time rather than enforce is the not knowing when it's the right time to declare second dig. Bat too long and you increase the chances of the opposition escaping with a draw. Don't bat long enough and you could end up with serious egg on your face if the opposition chase down the target set. I know you fear England's bowlers would be tired and there's a danger that Pakistan would score big second dig with the follow on being enforced. I don't rubbish that at all but feel bowlers don't get so tired when wickets are falling and, in any case, can rest when the Test is won - ultimately, as the fielding captain I back my bowlers!

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:09 am

On the nightwatchman issue. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on the subject TBH. I thought Woakes yesterday made good sense: he's a very competent batsman, technically sound, and has enough shots to keep the game moving forward the next day. Rahat makes no sense as a nightwatchman full stop as he's such a terrible batsman: he's unlikely to survive a period of sustained aggressive bowling in the evening, and certainly won't hang around much the next day even if he does, by some minor miracle, do so.

I'm not against Pakistan wanting a nightwatchman in that situation, the last thing they'll have wanted is for Misbah - one of their two in-form players - to get out this evening. However, Rahat is clearly not up to the job. Yasir seems technically competent enough, and could get the gig, but you're then left with the other issue I touched on yesterday, that one of your batsmen gets stranded with a long tail the next day.

Back to the follow-on. Guildford points out two dangers of not enforcing. I would ask: just how much of a danger is the perceived second one, namely not batting long enough in the second dig and ending with egg on faces? I can't recall off-hand an occasion where a captain has, having been in a position to enforce the follow-on, instead batted again and declared too soon, with the opposition chasing down the target. I'm fairly sure it hasn't happened in Tests since I started watching/following 20 years ago, and given the non enforcement of follow-ons is a relatively modern phenomenon, I would hazard a guess at it never having actually occured in Tests (leaving out the controversial "Cronje" Eng vs SA match where SA technically didn't enforce the follow-on after England had forfeited their first innings, for obvious reasons). I expect there are probably examples in the County game, though likely few and far between.

Of course, the main risk is of batting too long to make the game safe, and the opposition rescuing a draw. This is exacerbated when weather becomes a factor, as it does all too often in England Wink. There are a fair few examples of this certainly, though only one fairly recent one I can recall which involved England. On the WI tour a few years back under Flower and Strauss (just after they took over). There were decent reasons for not enforcing then: England had been rolled over for 50 in the previous Test and would have been understandably nervous about any tricky fourth innings target, and Swann was carrying a niggle from bowling in the first innings. Still, WI ended the game 9 down...

On this occasion I would favour England enforcing the follow-on. The biggest risk would be Pakistan managing to set a tough target with Yasir spinning his web on a deteriorating pitch, but I don't think there's enough time left for that: Pakistan are still the best part of two days batting from matching England's score, which would give them only a day to set a target and bowl England out. Don't see it. And that's if the weather stays dry. Added to that is the fact that England's five man attack allows them to stay reasonably well rested, two guys didn't play in the previous Test, and the three who did weren't overbowled. There's a decent break before the next match too, so even if Pakistan were to bat long they would have time to rest up. Lastly, I feel that Pakistan's batting is still a bit brittle, and so if England could knock them over reasonably cheaply tomorrow I would quite like to see them back in: "go for the throat" as you say.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:49 am

Good, good, England still on for the innings victory, and Woakes having the time of his career.

I can rest easily knowing the series will be won by England.

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Post by alfie Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:11 am

Sensible points above ! guildford, MFC .

I guess we should take the other six wickets before we start enforcing follow ons Smile : but it does look quite likely given the precarious state Pakistan are in with four gone early. Mind you Misbah, Shafiq and even Sarfraz did all bat well at Lord's so still work to do .
Assuming the remaining wickets fall before tea the follow on is a no-brainer ...indeed you'd probably enforce it as long as they don't bat all day. Not as if the third Test is too close to this one , so bowler fatigue is less of a potential issue.
Not wishing to be dismissive of guildford's "old school" view that you should virtually always enforce the follow on ; but I think there are occasions where batting again is preferable - perhaps less so in English conditions than in , say , Australia. If there is little chance of weather problems and the pitch is at its best for batting in the third innings , I think the rather ruthless grinding approach of batting again can pay dividends - for the later matches as well as the game in progress. One thing that has changed in modern times is the elimination of the rest day ; and the cumulative effect of bowlers staying in the field for two days plus can be something best avoided...especially if there is another match starting in three or four days.

But as I say , I don't see this as one of those occasions ; I expect to see Pakistan going in again some time on Sunday afternoon.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:23 am

Five down, Anderson gets his first.

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Post by alfie Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:33 am

Rain. Bother.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:20 pm

Good start for England, getting rid of Masood. I remember a discussion with Mike over Joe Root's batting, and I suggested he had a weakness just outside off stump, tending to nick off a bit. Mike's withering response was that every batsman has a weakness just outside off stump. With that in mind I hesitate to make too much of Masood's struggles out there, but I do feel that if a team can bowl enough balls in the right area it feels inevitable that he'll eventually nick one. England have got him out three times to very similar dismissals, and it must be a concern for an opening batsman (a bit like Robson for England when he played).

Restart in ten minutes, the break will have kept England's bowlers fresh, and they'll be hoping to nip another one out before lunch. This partnership absolutely key for Pakistan.

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Post by alfie Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:46 pm

Very much the key pairing. Misbah is being extremely patient ...6 off 40 as I type.

England will feel that if they can break this stand they are pretty well "through" - although both Sarfraz and Yasir might offer some resistance.

And there goes Shafiq !


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Post by alfie Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:49 pm

Broad's persistence paying off... Bit of a tame shot to get out ; but that's what pressure does.

And nearly another immediately ! Don't think Sarfraz is suited to the rearguard action...

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Post by Duty281 Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:58 pm

Glorious situation for England to be in. 6 down are Pakistan, still 500 adrift.

And the best bowler in Lancashire hasn't properly fired yet...saving it for the second innings?

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Post by guildfordbat Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:01 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Good start for England, getting rid of Masood. I remember a discussion with Mike over Joe Root's batting, and I suggested he had a weakness just outside off stump, tending to nick off a bit. Mike's withering response was that every batsman has a weakness just outside off stump. With that in mind I hesitate to make too much of Masood's struggles out there, but I do feel that if a team can bowl enough balls in the right area it feels inevitable that he'll eventually nick one. England have got him out three times to very similar dismissals, and it must be a concern for an opening batsman (a bit like Robson for England when he played).

Restart in ten minutes, the break will have kept England's bowlers fresh, and they'll be hoping to nip another one out before lunch. This partnership absolutely key for Pakistan.

Yes, reasonable application from Masood but I never thought he looked as if he would stay long enough to make the oh so necessary big score.

PS - more calm if required on the RL 50 thread. Smile

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Post by robbo277 Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:02 pm

Last recognised batsmen out there now, a lot rests on their shoulders. England will be looking to go 9, 10, jack for not very many when they break this partnership and open up an end.

Pakistan still trail by 501, so I think it's safe to say the umpires will be asking Cook if he wants to enforce the follow on. These two will have to bat for enough runs and enough time that Cook second guesses himself.

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Post by dyrewolfe Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:17 pm

Sarfraz gone for 26...Pakistan 112-7.

With the lead still 477 its looking very much like England won't need to bat again.
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Post by GSC Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:33 pm

Conditions are better for England's bowlers, but this is a poor effort from Pakistan
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:02 pm

The old addage about not knowing how good a pitch is until both teams have had a go feels true with this one. I never really felt the pitch was a flat pancake, even on day one the odd ball was misbehaving (Cook) and turning. Never thought it was a 600 pitch, maybe a 350-400 one, but Cook and especially Root played exceptionally well, as class players like them are wont to do.

Of course it's not a 120/8 pitch either, and well as England have bowled Pakistan's application has been poor. Sarfraz continues to frustrate, he has some big scores in the past but against England in recent times he has made a start and got out as it looked like he might make a significant contribution.

Root continues to stamp his authority on the match with some smart slip catches. I believe the record for catches by an outfielder in a Test innings is five? Root has four with two wickets to go...

Edit: here's the full list, five is indeed the record, achieved by ten different players, none of them English.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283555.html

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