The future for the nations below Franglais

First topic message reminder :

What is the mid to long term future of professional rugby in countries like Scotland, Italy, Ireland, and Wales?

The news yesterday of another mammoth financial deal for the English means that they and the French have moved from being streets ahead to a level above, although the deal was more structural than product generated. But what with their tv deals and the like they have resources that nobody else in the Northern Hemisphere can touch. The organisers of the Guinness League can talk about American and Spanish clubs joining until the cows come home, but that is not going to make a dent in the gap between the Franglais and everybody else. So my question is twofold:

1) Where do you see the Celtic nations' domestic sides AND national sides in say 5 - 7 years time?
2) Is anybody actually worried about this, or should we let the powers that be sort it out?

Pot Hale wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Posters are now just naming countries that have rugby teams. This is how desperate the Pro12 has become.

This. Who gives a toss if Spain get 25k to a one off game. How much money is Spanish telly bringing to the table? I'd venture, buttons.

Well thats a better idea than spending another decade begging the English to combine leagues.

We haven't got another decade

Ah but we do.  

Oh yeah I forgot, the Romanians and Lisbon RFC are going to ride on their steeds of mist and moonbeams with a new multi million TV deal. FFS.

Stone Motif wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Dai Llewod wrote:Posters are now just naming countries that have rugby teams. This is how desperate the Pro12 has become.

This. Who gives a toss if Spain get 25k to a one off game. How much money is Spanish telly bringing to the table? I'd venture, buttons.

Well thats a better idea than spending another decade begging the English to combine leagues.

We haven't got another decade

Ah but we do.  

Oh yeah I forgot, the Romanians and Lisbon RFC are going to ride on their steeds of mist and moonbeams with a new multi million TV deal. FFS.

Eh? What have they got to do with anything?

Irish Londoner wrote:Fly, one of the things about Britain/England inventing so many things is that they have no national prefix as being the first they weren't needed as identifiers:
The Open Championship
The Royal Navy
The Royal Air Force
The Football Association
The Rugby Football Union
The Professional Golfers Association
Etc.

Let's not forget "The Wife".

Seriously, the current sports media in UK has a number of issues. Over hyped, over use of cliched superlatives, ended montages of sports clips to the latest music noise.

But the biggest annoyance is the use of "The", especially in relation to stadium names. Instead "The Emirates/Etihad Stadium" the say "The Emirates/Etihad", as if the name can now be used as the noun. Bring back Des Lynam and Dickie Davies, please.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/17145703/usa-rugby-welcome-possibility-housing-pro12-team

USA Rugby are "very interested" in holding discussions over adding an East Coast-based team to the Guinness PRO12.

Philip Browne, the Irish Rugby Football Union CEO, said last week that the PRO12 are considering a plan to expand the league into the U.S., as they seek to increase its revenue to keep up with the Aviva Premiership and Top 14.

Bob Latham, USA Rugby's chairman, says various obstacles will have to be overcome if the dream ever comes to fruition, but is keen to look into the possibility of an American franchise joining the PRO12.

....

Funny looking at some posters responses. No fun and no vision. It feels to me they want to live in a world where rugby will only ever be the old European 5 nations and the new southern 5 nations. It actually reminds me of a scene from Braveheart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbYnuvcGzok

Rugby should expand and there is no white horse (including American teams). That does not mean expansion to major cities should not be looked at and pursued when the time comes. 12-14 is an awkward number in the present calendar and playing through the international windows is far more crippling for the Pro 12 than the English or the French. I prefer expansion to contraction. I do not believe that splitting Munster in 2 is better than expanding to Lisbon (Portugal have a decent 7s team and are in the next tier of nations in Europe for 15's) or Spain (90k in Barca for final of Top 14/Lusitanos was a team on the cards before the financial crisis ruined the support they were looking for). So I look abroad to the future.

Irish Londoner wrote:
The Open Championship
The Royal Navy
The Royal Air Force
The Football Association
The Rugby Football Union
The Professional Golfers Association
Etc.

Try calling the Irish Navy/Air Force "Royal" and see how far that goes.

Gooseberry wrote:

Try calling the Irish Navy/Air Force "Royal" and see how far that goes.

Well, we did have Royalty of our own in our ancient past. We did have Kings. We do have The Hill of Tara that would easily and naturally be referred to as the Royal Seat of the High Kings of Ireland. And one of our counties, in which Tara is situated, is known as The Royal County, without whispering.

Now all we need is to find an Air Force to attach the name to

Gooseberry wrote:Try calling the Irish Navy/Air Force "Royal" and see how far that goes.

Isn't the correct name for the Irish Air Force "Ryanair" ?

Gooseberry wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
The Open Championship
The Royal Navy
The Royal Air Force
The Football Association
The Rugby Football Union
The Professional Golfers Association
Etc.

Try calling the Irish Navy/Air Force "Royal" and see how far that goes.

Royal Dublin Showground ?

Hazel Sapling wrote:Funny looking at some posters responses. No fun and no vision. It feels to me they want to live in a world where rugby will only ever be the old European 5 nations and the new southern 5 nations. It actually reminds me of a scene from Braveheart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbYnuvcGzok

Rugby should expand and there is no white horse (including American teams). That does not mean expansion to major cities should not be looked at and pursued when the time comes. 12-14 is an awkward number in the present calendar and playing through the international windows is far more crippling for the Pro 12 than the English or the French. I prefer expansion to contraction. I do not believe that splitting Munster in 2 is better than expanding to Lisbon (Portugal have a decent 7s team and are in the next tier of nations in Europe for 15's) or Spain (90k in Barca for final of Top 14/Lusitanos was a team on the cards before the financial crisis ruined the support they were looking for). So I look abroad to the future.

Yes rugby must expand. But why should it be the Pro12 who is doing the expanding ? Why can't the French or English reach out an arm to these tier two nations ? The Pro12 countries are already carrying Italy. I really do laugh at people on here. Lets go to America, lets go to Spain, blah blah blah. Do you honestly think that the cash strapped teams can afford all this travel ?

Rich countries are elitist 'shocker'

[quote="SecretFly"][quote="Gooseberry"]

Try calling the Irish Navy/Air Force "Royal" and see how far that goes. [/quote]

Well, we did have Royalty of our own in our ancient past.  We did have Kings.  We do have The Hill of Tara that would easily and naturally be referred to as the Royal Seat of the High Kings of Ireland.  And one of our counties, in which Tara is situated, is known as The [i]Royal[/i] County, without whispering.

Now all we need is to find an Air Force to attach the name to [/quote]

__________________________


I had a dog called Tara

I thought Higgins was King of the Lollypop Guild ?

munkian wrote:I thought Higgins was King of the Lollypop Guild ?

No...Middle Earth.

LordDowlais wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:Funny looking at some posters responses. No fun and no vision. It feels to me they want to live in a world where rugby will only ever be the old European 5 nations and the new southern 5 nations. It actually reminds me of a scene from Braveheart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbYnuvcGzok

Rugby should expand and there is no white horse (including American teams). That does not mean expansion to major cities should not be looked at and pursued when the time comes. 12-14 is an awkward number in the present calendar and playing through the international windows is far more crippling for the Pro 12 than the English or the French. I prefer expansion to contraction. I do not believe that splitting Munster in 2 is better than expanding to Lisbon (Portugal have a decent 7s team and are in the next tier of nations in Europe for 15's) or Spain (90k in Barca for final of Top 14/Lusitanos was a team on the cards before the financial crisis ruined the support they were looking for). So I look abroad to the future.

Yes rugby must expand. But why should it be the Pro12 who is doing the expanding ? Why can't the French or English reach out an arm to these tier two nations ? The Pro12 countries are already carrying Italy. I really do laugh at people on here. Lets go to America, lets go to Spain, blah blah blah. Do you honestly think that the cash strapped teams can afford all this travel ?

All those flights? One franchise in the States would mean 1 extra flight a year.

A US franchise would make the PRO12 attractive to US tv. Sport media are always looking for content. Liberty Global (a US media giant) has an interest in ITV, UTV Ireland/TV3 and are in the process of buying a tv station in Spain. The PRO12 with franchises in these countries would make the PRO12 more attractive as their strategy is to produce material that is globally attractive.

If the Welsh Regions get their act together and stop moaning about the PRO12, there might be more than one bid the next time the media rights are on sale when no one would bid (bar Sky) for them because of the uncertainty created by the Welsh Rugby civil war. Flogging their rights to the BBC also undermined sales in Ireland who get BBC as free to air and made the Irish rights worthless.

On another note, its good to see today that profits are up 3% for the PRO12 Main Sponsor, Guinness.

Sin é wrote:If the Welsh Regions get their act together and stop moaning about the PRO12, there might be more than one bid the next time the media rights are on sale when no one would bid (bar Sky) for them because of the uncertainty created by the Welsh Rugby civil war.

FFS, it's always back to this ain't it ? Listen, it is not all down to the Welsh. Despite our "civil war" the Welsh STILL got the best free to air TV deal.

America will not be clamoring all over themselves to pay big money for the Pro12, not unless they can call it a world series and only Americans play it. Spain will not fork out millions for it either, they will spend all their monies on LaLiga and the champions league.

Here is a novel thought, why don't the Irish/Scottish and Italian TV companies pay more ?

Or why don't you bundle it all up together and sell to 1 boradcaster such as sky for a higher rate?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Or why don't you bundle it all up together and sell to 1 boradcaster such as sky for a higher rate?

Yes there is that. But I dunno if sky will get that many extra subscribers in other countries. The Pro12 is not as popular in Ireland as you would think. Scotland is all about the football as is Italy. Most people buy Sky for the premier league, not the Pro12.

Yeah not trying to argue that at all simply splitting anything generally leads to less money in broadcasting.

LordDowlais wrote:

Here is a novel thought, why don't the Irish/Scottish and Italian TV companies pay more ?

You've avoided this before, Lord.  Now I'll try one more time.  
You are in BBC Land. BBC Wales is funded by the National UK-wide Version.  Are BBC Wales, BBC Scotland and BBC NI funded the same way?  Is the funding based on population or split evenly three ways amongst the three regions?  How much does each Region get from the BBC each year?  Does anyone know?    

Because here's the situation:
Scotland (pop: 5.2M) with more licence fee payers than Wales (pop: 3M) but with only two sides in Pro12.  
Why should BBC Scotland pay the same as BBC Wales for coverage when their slice of the competition pie isn't as large?  

Northern Ireland (pop: 1.8M) have fewer licence fee payers than Wales but also only one side to cover.
Again, why should they pay the same as BBC Wales with 3 less sides in the competition?

Wales have four sides in the competition and that's a lot more reasons each week for Welsh people to sit down and watch the competition.

So what's happening?  Inform me.  Who is paying for the money BBC Wales feels ready to invest in Pro12?   Don't Scots and Northern Irish licence fee payers indirectly contribute to that investment?  Why do you keep gloating about what BBC Wales pays when you know the BBC hands BBC Wales its budget from the combined licence fee across the UK?

I'm not sure he's 'gloating' - that would imply that hes happy about it ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:If the Welsh Regions get their act together and stop moaning about the PRO12, there might be more than one bid the next time the media rights are on sale when no one would bid (bar Sky) for them because of the uncertainty created by the Welsh Rugby civil war.

FFS, it's always back to this ain't it ? Listen, it is not all down to the Welsh. Despite our "civil war" the Welsh STILL got the best free to air TV deal.

America will not be clamoring all over themselves to pay big money for the Pro12, not unless they can call it a world series and only Americans play it. Spain will not fork out millions for it either, they will spend all their monies on LaLiga and the champions league.

Here is a novel thought, why don't the Irish/Scottish and Italian TV companies pay more ?

BT Sport refused to bid the last time because they (and Welsh Regions) were hoping there wouldn't be a Pro12. Its about time you stopped willy waving about the great BBC TV deal you have and accept responsibility for wrecking any decent deal for everyone else.

The other issue with the Welsh broadcasting rights is that it just doesn't broadcast in Wales - it broadcasts in Ireland as well on FTA. Someone like Sky would pay more if they had exclusive rights in Ireland, but your personal deal with BBC Wales destroys that happening.

Did I say that the US would be clambouring to pay big money? My point is that the PRO12 is now more attractive to a company like Liberty Global because they can own the rights in UK, Ireland, US & Spain for starters and if nothing a content filler for US & Spain, whereas someone like BBC does not have those capabilities.

You need also to learn that the PRO12 & its fans need to put a bit of effort into promoting it - not an easy task since the Welsh Regions and their supporters have done nothing but knock it for the last 3 or 4 years.

Yes SF, we have been through this before. I asked a question. How much does Irish free to air channels pay towards other sports when compared to the Pro12 ? None of you would answer that question. I wonder why ?

You can avoid the issues all you like by breaking things down to population and all the rubbish that comes with it. The thing is the reasons why no other countries pay as much for the Pro12 than BBC Wales is because there is not as much interest.

Now I can sympathise with Scotland, as their national team is rubbish and the football rules all up there, the same with Italy, but in Ireland the Rugby team is just as popular as the football team just as it is in Wales, yet there is not much interest in the Pro12. Perhaps if the Irish treated the league with less disdain from the outset then the Pro12 might have been as popular as the HC in Ireland.

But it is easier to blame the Welsh for everything, so just go with that.

Sin é wrote:You need also to learn that the PRO12 & its fans need to put a bit of effort into promoting it - not an easy task since the Welsh Regions and their supporters have done nothing but knock it for the last 3 or 4 years.

As opposed to the IRFU treating it like a development competition for years. Yeah, jog on.

munkian wrote:I'm not sure he's 'gloating' - that would imply that hes happy about it ?

He is happy about it. It's the stick he has in his scabbard and when he spots a smug Irish bollix around, he whips it out and beats the crap out of said smug schidt with it.

LordDowlais wrote:

You can avoid the issues all you like by breaking things down to population and all the rubbish that comes with it. The thing is the reasons why no other countries pay as much for the Pro12 than BBC Wales is because there is  not as much interest.

Now I can sympathise with Scotland, as their national team is rubbish and the football rules all up there, the same with Italy, but in Ireland the Rugby team is just as popular as the football team just as it is in Wales, yet there is not much interest in the Pro12. Perhaps if the Irish treated the league with less disdain from the outset then the Pro12 might have been as popular as the HC in Ireland.

But it is easier to blame the Welsh for everything, so just go with that.

First Highlighted section:
Nope.  Population and who is doing the actual paying as in subscriptions and/or licence fee contributions DOES in fact matter and isn't in fact 'rubbish'.  And that means that the last sentence of that section is again wrong.  But keep fencing/evading.  

Second Highlighted Section:  That's nice about our mutual friends and colleagues, the Scots.  You're getting into the swing of things now.  
Meanwhile, the Irish have been doing it on the field.... still.  We've respected the Pro12 by being consistently in contention for most of its history.  
Did any Welsh people at all watch the Pro12 final, btw?  The only Welsh person I saw around with any frequency in that run-in period was Phil, who told me directly that the Welsh don't give a crap about Pro12 and that's why they were so few of them around to discuss the exciting climax to the Pro12 year.

Hmmm?

LordDowlais wrote:Yes SF, we have been through this before. I asked a question. How much does Irish free to air channels pay towards other sports when compared to the Pro12 ? None of you would answer that question. I wonder why ?

You can avoid the issues all you like by breaking things down to population and all the rubbish that comes with it. The thing is the reasons why no other countries pay as much for the Pro12 than BBC Wales is because there is  not as much interest.

Now I can sympathise with Scotland, as their national team is rubbish and the football rules all up there, the same with Italy, but in Ireland the Rugby team is just as popular as the football team just as it is in Wales, yet there is not much interest in the Pro12. Perhaps if the Irish treated the league with less disdain from the outset then the Pro12 might have been as popular as the HC in Ireland.

But it is easier to blame the Welsh for everything, so just go with that.

I'd say the reason we don't answer your question is because we don't know the answer!

For the record, the football team is more popular than the rugby team!

Distain seems to work then, since every Irish team has won the PRO12 at least once and 9 times out of the 15 times and as far as I can recall, 3 of the 4 are at the top of the league.

The reasons for the difference in the terrestrial TV deals has already been explained in another thread topic.

BBC Wales is not available FTA in Ireland. BBC NI is.

BBC Wales and S4C have approx £160m operating budget. TG4 has about €46m.

The Welsh TV deal is for four teams in the Welsh region. 26 games in the first half of this season.

The Irish TV deal is for 3 teams in the Irish territory.

The BBC NI deal is for 1 team in the NI territory.

RTE withdrew from bidding because SKY got involved as primary broadcaster in Ireland. They were losing money at the time of the last rights deal.

Next time round, due to changes of ownership and developments within Irish private sector TV there is likely to be more and bigger bids.

It is possible that one of the Irish bidders could bid for the whole league through Setanta Sport network, now called Eirsport.

Pot Hale, you can get BBC Wales in Ireland, just not on Virgin Media.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/a-step-by-step-guide-on-how-to-tune-bbc-wales-for-warm-up-match-1.2310134

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

You can avoid the issues all you like by breaking things down to population and all the rubbish that comes with it. The thing is the reasons why no other countries pay as much for the Pro12 than BBC Wales is because there is  not as much interest.

Now I can sympathise with Scotland, as their national team is rubbish and the football rules all up there, the same with Italy, but in Ireland the Rugby team is just as popular as the football team just as it is in Wales, yet there is not much interest in the Pro12. Perhaps if the Irish treated the league with less disdain from the outset then the Pro12 might have been as popular as the HC in Ireland.

But it is easier to blame the Welsh for everything, so just go with that.

First Highlighted section:
Nope.  Population and who is doing the actual paying as in subscriptions and/or licence fee contributions DOES in fact matter and isn't in fact 'rubbish'.  And that means that the last sentence of that section is again wrong.  But keep fencing/evading.  

Fantastic. We'll be hearing no more tosh about Welsh attendances from the Emerald Isle then, what with us getting better per capita ticket sales and all.

Stone Motif wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

You can avoid the issues all you like by breaking things down to population and all the rubbish that comes with it. The thing is the reasons why no other countries pay as much for the Pro12 than BBC Wales is because there is  not as much interest.

Now I can sympathise with Scotland, as their national team is rubbish and the football rules all up there, the same with Italy, but in Ireland the Rugby team is just as popular as the football team just as it is in Wales, yet there is not much interest in the Pro12. Perhaps if the Irish treated the league with less disdain from the outset then the Pro12 might have been as popular as the HC in Ireland.

But it is easier to blame the Welsh for everything, so just go with that.

First Highlighted section:
Nope.  Population and who is doing the actual paying as in subscriptions and/or licence fee contributions DOES in fact matter and isn't in fact 'rubbish'.  And that means that the last sentence of that section is again wrong.  But keep fencing/evading.  

Fantastic. We'll be hearing no more tosh about Welsh attendances from the Emerald Isle then, what with us getting better per capita ticket sales and all.

You people are craaaazzyy!

Rewind the old tape machine there, Motif.  Yeah....keep going.  No, further - all the way back. - There you go.  
First mumbles of discontent with all things Pro12 came from? - yep, you guys.  And of course it's now gone on so long, with strike and counter-strike across the Irish sea, that some of you seem to have totally forgotten who started this whole chicken and eggs race (you guys did).

So let me be the first to re-remind you, one more time - so that we can all re-set our clocks again - you guys started this show.  
Don't blame us then for throwing back a few stones into your own glasshouses - one of them being that thing about few Welsh folks at the grounds of their favourite Regions yet plenty on the net moaning about everything and anything concerning the Pro12.  
I think it was Einstein that said: "If you don't want a handful of stones thrown your way, don't throw the initial handful our way."

Sin é wrote:Pot Hale, you can get BBC Wales in Ireland, just not on Virgin Media.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/a-step-by-step-guide-on-how-to-tune-bbc-wales-for-warm-up-match-1.2310134

That article is behind paywall. I said that BBC Wales is not available FTA in Ireland. You're saying it is. Tell me how and where it is FTA.

From the Irish Times article.

Firstly, it’s worth noting that BBC Wales is not available at all on UPC. It is available on some free-to-air satellite boxes at channel 38.

If you’re a Sky Digital customer you can tune the channel in to the ‘Other Channels’ section by following these instructions:

1. Press ‘services’ on your Sky remote control.

2. Scroll down once and then across until you land on ‘add channels’.

3. From there scroll down and key in the following details:

Frequency: 10.788

Polarisation: V

Symbol Rate: 22.0

FEC: 5/6

Standard: DVB-S

Modulation Scheme: QPSK

4. Once those details have been entered, press the yellow button and the system will begin to scan for channels. Note that at this stage it may come up with a message saying ‘no signal found’. If this happens simply press the yellow button again to re-scan. It may take a few attempts to find the channel.

5. Once the scan is complete a list of channels will show up. Scroll through until you reach ‘BBC Wales One’ and then press the yellow button to store the channel.

6. Finally, press select to save what you have done.

7. BBC One Wales will now be in the ‘Other Channels’ section of your Sky Guide when you press services on your remote control.

All that’s left to do at that stage is to get yourself a beverage, settle down and watch Ireland begin their Rugby World Cup warm-up campaign.

Sin é wrote:From the Irish Times article.

Firstly, it’s worth noting that BBC Wales is not available at all on UPC. It is available on some free-to-air satellite boxes at channel 38.

If you’re a Sky Digital customer you can tune the channel in to the ‘Other Channels’ section ....

Yes, I was aware it was possible to tune in a Sky box to view it.   Which is a paid for service, not FTA.   And being available on some other non-mainstream satellite boxes amounts to the same thing.  Saorview states that it does not host UK channels.

I think you understand the point I was making.  BBC Wales is not easily or readily available in Ireland compared to the standard FTA channels such as RTE, TV3, UTV, C4, BBC NI 1, BBC NI 2.   Claiming that that the TV deal Celtic Rugby did with BBC Wales/S4C meant that it scuppered the market in Ireland because BBC Wales is freely or easily available on FTA does not stand up to scrutiny.  It also ignores more pertinent issues regarding territories, shared broadcasting, production costs and home games.    

I'm not saying this idly.  I've worked in television, producing programmes (not sports), and been involved in buying/selling programmes/rights from and to other territories.  Price is about size of market, territory rights, viewership, potential/established audience share, and critically - when buying in programmes/rights - the ability/financial capacity of Irish TV stations to be able to pay.    TG4 is just not at the races when it comes to bidding against other well-funded broadcasters for big sports events.  It operates as a niche broadcaster picking up on programmes/series that other channels are unlikely to take - as cheaply as possible.   BBC Wales/S4C has three times the operating budget of TG4, that gives it a lot more buying clout for the matches it wants to cover/transmit for its territory i.e the four Welsh regions.  TG4 gets three of the Irish teams, and the slots/matches that Sky doesn't want effectively.  RTE withdrew from showing it because SKY got awarded the primary broadcaster rights, leaving TG4 to pick up the remainder on some sole broadcasts and/or shared broadcasts for the three teams in its broadcast territory.

******************************


A quick glance at this season's upcoming schedule for first 13 rounds will show you that:

Sky has 12 matches with sole broadcast - 3 Scottish, 4 Welsh, 5 Irish - at home.
It has a further 7 shared broadcasts - Leinster/ Munster, Ospreys/Dragons, Treviso/Cardiff, Ulster/Connacht, Munster/Leinster, Ospreys/Scarlets, Scarlets/Cardiff - mainly high-profile derbies.

BBC Wales has 7 sole broadcast games - 7 Welsh matches at home and a further 6 shared matches with Welsh teams.   In addition, S4C has 3 sole broadcast games and 10 shared broadcast games of Welsh teams.  BBC Wales produces programming for S4C.   In effect, they jointly bid for 10 sole broadcast games and 16 shared broadcasts of games involving the four Welsh regions.

TG4 has 5 sole broadcast home games for 3 Irish teams - against Treviso, Zebre, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Connacht/Munster and 14 shared broadcasts with 8 at home.

BBC Alba has 4 sole broadcast and 10 shared broadcasts for two teams.

BBC NI has 2 sole broadcasts and 8 shared broadcasts for one team.

In short, you gets what you pays for, and you pays for what you get.

*********

As a footnote to viewership and the role of FTA channels in regards to regionality/ audience reach/popularity, it might be useful to repeat some data/stats made in a similar topic:

The PRO 12 final last May had a peak audience on Sky UK of 43,000.  It had a peak of 63,000 in Sky Ireland.   And a peak of 282,000 on TG4.

That's 388,000 in total peak viewing audience. (source: PRO 12).  It was 379,000 for the PRO12 final last year.  

An average PRO 12 league round apparently gets 500,000 viewers - if Sky get over 200,000 viewers, they're very happy apparently, according to Anayi in a recent interview.

By way of comparison, the English Premiership final (2015) had a peak audience of 272,000 on BT.  (Source: Saracens rugby site).  BT have now agreed  - with some strong prompting from PRL one suspects -  to show some games on FTA this coming season to boost viewing audience numbers.

SecretFly wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

You can avoid the issues all you like by breaking things down to population and all the rubbish that comes with it. The thing is the reasons why no other countries pay as much for the Pro12 than BBC Wales is because there is  not as much interest.

Now I can sympathise with Scotland, as their national team is rubbish and the football rules all up there, the same with Italy, but in Ireland the Rugby team is just as popular as the football team just as it is in Wales, yet there is not much interest in the Pro12. Perhaps if the Irish treated the league with less disdain from the outset then the Pro12 might have been as popular as the HC in Ireland.

But it is easier to blame the Welsh for everything, so just go with that.

First Highlighted section:
Nope.  Population and who is doing the actual paying as in subscriptions and/or licence fee contributions DOES in fact matter and isn't in fact 'rubbish'.  And that means that the last sentence of that section is again wrong.  But keep fencing/evading.  

Fantastic. We'll be hearing no more tosh about Welsh attendances from the Emerald Isle then, what with us getting better per capita ticket sales and all.

You people are craaaazzyy!

Rewind the old tape machine there, Motif.  Yeah....keep going.  No, further - all the way back. - There you go.  
First mumbles of discontent with all things Pro12 came from? - yep, you guys.  And of course it's now gone on so long, with strike and counter-strike across the Irish sea, that some of you seem to have totally forgotten who started this whole chicken and eggs race (you guys did).

So let me be the first to re-remind you, one more time - so that we can all re-set our clocks again - you guys started this show.  
Don't blame us then for throwing back a few stones into your own glasshouses - one of them being that thing about few Welsh folks at the grounds of their favourite Regions yet plenty on the net moaning about everything and anything concerning the Pro12.  
I think it was Einstein that said: "If you don't want a handful of stones thrown your way, don't throw the initial handful our way."

Only you could write incoherent babble like this and finish by quoting Einstein. The irony...

Another thread gone. This idea that Wales screwed up the last negotiation is water past the bridge at this point (even if it is my opinion). It is time to look forward.

The English will not let others join unless they benefit more than they lose and the win win scenario has disappeared now that TV is more important than ticket sales. The Pro 12 can and should expand. I prefer a national champion model for the presently weaker nations.

There is a role for FTA TV though this should be a BBC or ITV role (in the UK), not BBC Wales, BBC Scotland and BBC NI separately. A highlight show similar to MOTD on Monday's at 10:30pm could do wonders for interest. Splitting TV rights with say 3/4 of the matches provided to one broadcaster and a 1/4 to a FTA broadcaster may do a world of good. Make the requirement that the games must be available in some format (online and/or TV).

Pot Hale wrote:By way of comparison, the English Premiership final (2015) had a peak audience of 272,000 on BT.  (Source: Saracens rugby site).  BT have now agreed  - with some strong prompting from PRL one suspects -  to show some games on FTA this coming season to boost viewing audience numbers.

That's maybe something to do with Sky too who are launching their Sky Sports Mix channel which will be showing some sports free to air though there was no mention of the Pro 12 in the press release for it.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Another thread gone. This idea that Wales screwed up the last negotiation is water past the bridge at this point (even if it is my opinion). It is time to look forward.

The English will not let others join unless they benefit more than they lose and the win win scenario has disappeared now that TV is more important than ticket sales. The Pro 12 can and should expand. I prefer a national champion model for the presently weaker nations.

There is a role for FTA TV though this should be a BBC or ITV role (in the UK), not BBC Wales, BBC Scotland and BBC NI separately. A highlight show similar to MOTD on Monday's at 10:30pm could do wonders for interest. Splitting TV rights with say 3/4 of the matches provided to one broadcaster and a 1/4 to a FTA broadcaster may do a world of good. Make the requirement that the games must be available in some format (online and/or TV).  

Hazel I don't think we will get a highlights show on tv this season but the league should be doing their own on YouTube. With the right promotion they could draw enough views to stir up interest in a highlights show and even sell advertising on their channel.

Agreed Marty, maybe at the renewal they can do something in that regard. There certainly is a lot of scope to improve broadcasting. Think having a solid online presence for those who move abroad (considering the scale of Irish and Scottish emigration over the last few decades) with access to the games would be good. The NBA has league pass and I would like the Pro 12 to try something like that. Say £100 a year for those based outside the 6 nations to get matches on a 2-3 hour delay. Could be a nice little earner in the long run.

Hazel Sapling wrote: A highlight show similar to MOTD on Monday's at 10:30pm could do wonders for interest.

You are aware that we already get one of those in Wales aren't you ? It's called Scrum V and it is on every Sunday evening.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Agreed Marty, maybe at the renewal they can do something in that regard. There certainly is a lot of scope to improve broadcasting. Think having a solid online presence for those who move abroad (considering the scale of Irish and Scottish emigration over the last few decades) with access to the games would be good. The NBA has league pass and I would like the Pro 12 to try something like that. Say £100 a year for those based outside the 6 nations to get matches on a 2-3 hour delay. Could be a nice little earner in the long run.    

Even if they got themselves better broadcasting deals abroad, you think of the ex pats in NZ, US and Australia that could be tapped into. Its that the IRFU are hoping to do with the AB game in November, tap into the ex pat community. I've said before, I think the Pro 12 should have a presence in the area in the week of the game at whatever events take place around it and engage with fans and build up the brand in the US and encourage players, suits etc to talk up the league.

It should be the same over the next year in NZ with the Lions tour coming up.

LordDowlais wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote: A highlight show similar to MOTD on Monday's at 10:30pm could do wonders for interest.

You are aware that we already get one of those in Wales aren't you ? It's called Scrum V and it is on every Sunday evening.

And how many teams outside Wales do they cover?

marty2086 wrote:And how many teams outside Wales do they cover?

They show highlights of all the Pro12 games. Mostly the tries and talking points. But mostly they cover the four Welsh regions and all Welsh Premiership.

They do a lot of work with Rick O'Shea on there as well though and go around the clubs in the lower tiers and show a lot of community rugby on there.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:And how many teams outside Wales do they cover?

They show highlights of all the Pro12 games. Mostly the tries and talking points. But mostly they cover the four Welsh regions and all Welsh Premiership.

They do a lot of work with Rick O'Shea on there as well though and go around the clubs in the lower tiers and show a lot of community rugby on there.

So its more like Football Focus than MOTD?

Its also not available to everyone as well, I think Hazels point was a programme aimed at a wide audience. Scrum V is aimed at the Welsh market, which limits its availability and appeal, there needs to be a central program covering the league as a whole

marty2086 wrote:Its also not available to everyone as well, I think Hazels point was a programme aimed at a wide audience. Scrum V is aimed at the Welsh market, which limits its availability and appeal, there needs to be a central program covering the league as a whole

Then why don't the Irish TV channels fork out and pay for one suited towards the Irish audience then ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its also not available to everyone as well, I think Hazels point was a programme aimed at a wide audience. Scrum V is aimed at the Welsh market, which limits its availability and appeal, there needs to be a central program covering the league as a whole

Then why don't the Irish TV channels fork out and pay for one suited towards the Irish audience then ?

FFS, this is the point we are trying to make. The league need to be doing something about the whole thing

Stone Motif wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fantastic. We'll be hearing no more tosh about Welsh attendances from the Emerald Isle then, what with us getting better per capita ticket sales and all.

You people are craaaazzyy!

Rewind the old tape machine there, Motif.  Yeah....keep going.  No, further - all the way back. - There you go.  
First mumbles of discontent with all things Pro12 came from? - yep, you guys.  And of course it's now gone on so long, with strike and counter-strike across the Irish sea, that some of you seem to have totally forgotten who started this whole chicken and eggs race (you guys did).

So let me be the first to re-remind you, one more time - so that we can all re-set our clocks again - you guys started this show.  
Don't blame us then for throwing back a few stones into your own glasshouses - one of them being that thing about few Welsh folks at the grounds of their favourite Regions yet plenty on the net moaning about everything and anything concerning the Pro12.  
I think it was Einstein that said: "If you don't want a handful of stones thrown your way, don't throw the initial handful our way."

Only you could write incoherent babble like this and finish by quoting Einstein. The irony...

But then of course I didn't quote Einstein, Professor Stone.  But back to the incoherent babble.  Did you watch the Pro12 final? Honest answer.  Or did you save yourself for watching the England v Wales International the very next day?

marty2086 wrote:FFS, this is the point we are trying to make. The league need to be doing something about the whole thing

Yes I agree. They need to be telling the Irish TV channels to cough up. They can then have a highlights programme for their viewers. Just like BBC Wales are doing.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:FFS, this is the point we are trying to make. The league need to be doing something about the whole thing

Yes I agree. They need to be telling the Irish TV channels to cough up. They can then have a highlights programme for their viewers. Just like BBC Wales are doing.

You really are an idiot, I see why your business acumen is regularly questioned.

Do you go to people and tell them to pay you for products?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its also not available to everyone as well, I think Hazels point was a programme aimed at a wide audience. Scrum V is aimed at the Welsh market, which limits its availability and appeal, there needs to be a central program covering the league as a whole

Then why don't the Irish TV channels fork out and pay for one suited towards the Irish audience then ?

They do.