England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

First topic message reminder :

The final Test of the summer will take place with England looking dominant after back to back wins, but Pakistan still with a chance of a series draw, which would be a great result for them

England are expected to be unchanged despite there yet again be talk of Rashid playing (he must have the highest number of non-caps in cricket history )

Pakistan might look to drop Hafeez and potentially take the risk of playing 5 bowlers

Much going in my life at mo so not been on lately. My thoughts? Well lets remember Pakistan could have gone world No.1 at the end of this series in test cricket so they are evidently no mugs and England look set to beat them handily. Bairstow has made himself a mainstay of the team now as has Woakes with a strong of impressive performances with bat and ball. Ali also refinding his mojo with the willow. Question marks still hang over Hales and Vince though.

As for today - well England will look to reduce Pakistan to 75 for 4 at lunch and at tea be into Pskistan's tail at around 160 for 8 before bowling them out for around 200 leaving then an hour to bat out without alarm - they'd hope.

Pakistan must aim for something like getting to lunch for 80 for 2 with loss of only the night watchman. At tea they'd hope to be no worse than 170 for 4 and to close this evening around 260 for 6 and well placed to give themselves a first innings lead.

A problem for Pakistan though is the length of their tail. 260 for 6 would very likely result in all out for less than 300. In my opinion Pakistan need to be aiming for at least 400 in the first innings. However, I don't see them getting more than 350 particularly as Aslam is ready back in the hut.

LivinginItaly wrote:A problem for Pakistan though is the length of their tail. 260 for 6 would very likely result in all out for less than 300. In my opinion Pakistan need to be aiming for at least 400 in the first innings. However, I don't see them getting more than 350 particularly as Aslam is ready back in the hut.

Point taken but their tail did wag a bit at Edgbaston.

With the nightwatchman being used, 260-6 would see the usual number 7 at the crease, so not as bad as it would usually be, and would be a good chance to get a lead

dummy_half wrote:

Seconded - half an hour over time and we were still substantially (10 overs) short of the 90. The umpires have to take a bit of the blame for not hurrying the game along e.g. between overs, but the onus has to be on the fielding side - perhaps a 10 run penalty for every over short of 30 in a session unless there are exceptional circumstances (e.g. long delay for player injury etc). Perhaps some reward also for bowling more than the allocation - an additional DRS review if you bowl more than 90 in a day?

One of the issues cited in slowing of ovcer rates is DRS and the increase in interuptions and time it takes to resolve things...so thats not a great solution really.
Unpires stopping to review increasing numbers of catches and run outs etc doesnt help.

Over rate was further hit by Englnds fairly fast scoring rate, the number of wickets that fell, and very little spin being bowled. Also a dick load of no balls/ wides meant a lot of additional balls bowled not counted in the overs total.

Take off a change of innings as well and it wasnt that bad a rate , relatively.

Good recovery for England ...Bairstow , Moeen , Woakes - and even Anderson hanging around at the end , I see...
That long batting lineup has saved the top order's blushes a few times now !
Note guildford's view that the score is still a little light for The Oval ; and that is probably true. Though it may be enough - with the advantage of bowling last - to do the job ; as , say , 230 would not have been.
First few overs this morning say few fears for the batsmen so the bowlers will need to be disciplined and accurate today if they want to prevent Pakistan from gaining a substantial advantage. Bit of a re-run of Edgbaston , in a way ? New look Pakistan order makes this a little different ; so nothing set in stone yet , I think.

Hope the over rate is better than yesterday !

Good point by Gooseberry re the amount of time DRS waffle takes out of the game...

Still think ten overs short is too many.

Fantastic knock by Moeen yesterday - best way to bring up your ton! Saved our first innings together with Bairstow and Woakes.

Would have preferred to get closer to 400 but will happily take 320-odd under the circumstances.

Good early wicket from Broad, but we need to keep the pressure on and not gift Pakistan easy runs.


Have to say I like the idea of awarding "penalty runs" to the opposing team for slow over rates. I bet you'd see bowlers get a move on and fielding teams wasting less time on frivolous reviews.

Yasir doing a good job as night watchman , still there even though England are bowling pretty well this morning.
Could be hard work today.

Could really do with knocking Shah over now - it would make the scorecard look better for England ... and aid my case for disliking the use of nightwatchmen!

Frustrating for England - that ball is getting a bit older the longer Yasir stays there, making the job of the batsmen that bit easier. Still a long way to go, and Pakistan do have a tendency to lose 3 or 4 in a row once one goes down

alfie wrote:Good recovery for England ...Bairstow , Moeen , Woakes - and even Anderson hanging around at the end , I see...
That long batting lineup has saved the top order's blushes a few times now !
Note guildford's view that the score is still a little light for The Oval ; and that is probably true. Though it may be enough - with the advantage of bowling last - to do the job ; as , say , 230 would not have been.
First few overs this morning say few fears for the batsmen so the bowlers will need to be disciplined and accurate today if they want to prevent Pakistan from gaining a substantial advantage.  Bit of a re-run of Edgbaston , in a way ?   New look Pakistan order makes this a little different ; so nothing set in stone yet , I think.

Hope the over rate is better than yesterday !

If Moeen can do his job with the ball half as well as hes done with the bat it will be OK. It was a predicatably Englady innings really ... the usual suspects flumping and being bailed out by the ridiculous number of all rounders. Pakistan helped out a bit with a lot of loose deliveries and extras.

Agree with the general points, if Pakistan dont get a lead of at least 100 they wont feel at all comfortable.

Hales drops an easy catch off Yasir - you really couldn't make this up!

EDIT: not costly though, as Finn gets Yasir who has played well to survive the first hour whilst scoring a few runs. But, as I am sure Guildford will point out, any wicket will get the fielding sides tails up, and the nightwatchman usually provides that soon enough

Finn gets rid of the stubborn Yasir ...with the aid of some Joe Root juggling & the drink break : and to the considerable relief of Alex Hales

And guildford too since he really doesn't approve of the night watchman theory...

Just the unlucky Woakes left unfulfilled

Good to see Finn's pace coming back up .

He might be handy on this pitch with his capacity to get extra bounce.
Looks as if batting might be fairly easy as the day wears on , so England could really do with one or more scalps before lunch. Mind you , with Azhar out there , the run out is always a chance...

Well, he did a decent enough job as nightwatchman. Now the real hard work starts for our bowlers...

Yeah, I was just starting to get a bit anxious there, guys.

Poor miss by Hales a bit earlier. Suggest he keeps out of Woakes' way over lunch.

guildfordbat wrote:Could really do with knocking Shah over now - it would make the scorecard look better for England ... and aid my case for disliking the use of nightwatchmen!

To be honest though, how often do nightwatchmen actually come off? Probably as many occasions where they get out before the close of play on the first night as they play an irritating innings on the second morning...

OK, you get the occasional Gillespie innings, but more often than not it's a bit of a negative tactic

Thank you, Dummy.

Meanwhile, if it was raining soup in the Harleyford Road, poor Woakes would be walking down there with a knife and fork! Much harder miss this time by Anderson but a miss nonetheless.

Just as the commentators are discussing drops for the series , another one goes down off Woakes ...

Though to be fair that was a pretty hard chance : was really traveling - low and wide ; and Anderson would have done extremely well to cling on to that one.

But there are a lot of misses going around lately. And I note also that both Hales and Vince do very little to improve the close catching : if a new batsman is to be considered perhaps one with a good record in that area might be moved up the queue ?

Ugh! Shafiq dropped on 7. Woakes must be wondering what he's done to anger the cricketing gods. To add injury to insult, Anderson hurt his hand in the attempted catch.

England can't afford more mistakes like this if they are to have any hope of a 1st innings lead.

alfie wrote:Just as the commentators are discussing drops for the series , another one goes down off Woakes ...

Though to be fair that was a pretty hard chance : was really traveling - low and wide ; and Anderson would have done extremely well to cling on to that one.

But there are a lot of misses going around lately.  And I note also that both Hales and Vince do very little to improve the close catching : if a new batsman is to be considered perhaps one with a good record in that area might be moved up the queue ?

I'm not particularly pushing for Roy atm but he does tick that box.

88/2. One more wicket in the remaining 10 minutes before lunch would make things look so much better for England.

... and Finn should have had it! A poor morning so far for England and only ourselves to blame.

Jesus - 3 dropped catches this morning alone...thats poor.

I fear England will be made to pay dearly after lunch.

Pretty poor session from England, 2 significant dropped catches (the Hales drop did no damage) and only the nightwatchman to show for their work.

Still, thanks to Moeen and a couple of others they have a total to work with and Pakistan will not feel like they are ahead just yet, especially with what happened in the last match

''If both teams could catch, this game match would be rather more advanced than it already is.'' - David Gower.

No arguments there.

Bowling was pretty good , actually. But not so the catching...

Very much Pakistan's morning.

guildfordbat wrote:... and Finn should have had it! A poor morning so far for England and only ourselves to blame.

Never easy those low c&b chances , especially for a tall fast bowler. But it adds to the feeling of things not going to plan...

Need a good hour on resumption . Which may yet happen , of course.

Sigh ...for the good old days when Swann could be relied upon to take a wicket first over every time.

On the catching ...at lewast the bowlers are creating chances to be dropped. It does show that a flurry of wickets could go pretty easily and put England right back in it.

Particularly for the Surrey mafia, the Burger Van (Freddie van den Bergh, slow left armer still waiting for an opportunity at Surrey) is on as twelfth man.

Its that man, he of the key wickets, Moeen Ali with the breakthrough. Now if England can follow this up with one or two more Pakistan will be in a whole lot of trouble

VTR wrote:Its that man, he of the key wickets, Moeen Ali with the breakthrough. Now if England can follow this up with one or two more Pakistan will be in a whole lot of trouble

Yep, Moeen has a remarkable knack of doing that, eh Goose?

The dismissal seemed a bit odd as Bairstow was firstly screaming for an lbw decision as the ball ballooned up and only then caught it on the way down. Initially given not out but overturned on review,

I assume that on DRS the fielding side don't have to say what they are appealing for - that right? Thanks.

Its a bizarre dismissal, and a bit of an oddity in the rules that on DRS the umpire will check for all modes of dismissal. England clearly reviewed on the strength of an lbw shout (and may even have said as much to the onfield umpire) - but once its being reviewed it doesn't matter

guildfordbat wrote:

VTR wrote:Its that man, he of the key wickets, Moeen Ali with the breakthrough. Now if England can follow this up with one or two more Pakistan will be in a whole lot of trouble

Yep, Moeen has a remarkable knack of doing that, eh Goose?

The dismissal seemed a bit odd as Bairstow was firstly screaming for an lbw decision as the ball ballooned up and only then caught it on the way down. Initially given not out but overturned on review,

I assume that on DRS the fielding side don't have to say what they are appealing for - that right? Thanks.

Well its been remarked upon. Once again he shows up what a rank bowler Shah is eh

Cheers, VTR.

Just had a look on cricinfo to to see what they made of it - they confirmed that both Moeen and Bairstow were appealing for the lbw and described Bairstow catching the ball as it plopped down ''as an afterthought''.

England could do with another wicket before tea - this partnership is racing along. Seems an excellent batting surface and a fast outfield. Not panicking just yet but Pakistan are only really two and a bit wickets down nearing 200

This stand between Shafiq and Younus is looking ominous. These two look like they are going to take the game away from England. If they can get to around 300-4 I'd bank on them building a 1st innings lead of 200-250.

No matter what Jimmy Anderson says, there's no coming back from that.

Moeen currently having a blow with figures of 7-0-34-1. Some might say they are Rashid like. As I was banging on about at the start of this thread, their returns as a combo in India run the risk of being very expensive.

One thing I will positively remark upon in respect of Moeen is his impressive strike rate in Tests. That stood at 65.5 going into this match. To put that in some sort of context, it doesn't place him as a world great but it's still bl**dy impressive and compares favourably to a few, surprisingly so in the odd case.

A few examples from now and not so long ago -
* Yasir Shah - 53.7
* MacGill - 54.00
* Muralitharan - 55.0
* Warne - 57.4
* Swann - 60.1
* Moeen Ali - 65.5
* Saqlain Mushtaq - 67.6
* Mushtaq Ahmed - 67.7
* Tufnell - 93.2
* Rashid (admittedly only 3 Tests) - 102.6.

VTR wrote:England could do with another wicket before tea - this partnership is racing along. Seems an excellent batting surface and a fast outfield. Not panicking just yet but Pakistan are only really two and a bit wickets down nearing 200

Yes, definitely need that 4th wicket. Admittedly, once we get it, more wickets might follow quickly to give this game a different complexion. However, until we get 'em 4 down, there's a worrying feel for England.

The Oval has a very good drainage system these days. That normally means the outfield is fast. Add today's really hot weather plus that of recent days and I would guess the outfield is approaching lightning fast,

Meanwhile, Moeen time again ....

guildfordbat wrote:Moeen currently having a blow with figures of 7-0-34-1. Some might say they are Rashid like. As I was banging on about at the start of this thread, their returns as a combo in India run the risk of being very expensive.

One thing I will positively remark upon in respect of Moeen is his impressive strike rate in Tests. That stood at 65.5 going into this match. To put that in some sort of context, it doesn't place him as a world great but it's still bl**dy impressive and compares favourably to a few, surprisingly so in the odd case.

A few examples from now and not so long ago -
* Yasir Shah - 53.7
* MacGill - 54.00
* Muralitharan - 55.0
* Warne - 57.4
* Swann - 60.1
* Moeen Ali - 65.5
* Saqlain Mushtaq - 67.6
* Mushtaq Ahmed - 67.7
* Tufnell - 93.2
* Rashid (admittedly only 3 Tests) - 102.6.

Moeen is doing alright - really he's a second spinner who's a #6 bat, but he's doing a different role for the team and doing it fairly well.

Our problem is that we don't have a #1 spinner. Really all the other options out there (Rashid, Ansari, Borthwick) are similar types of players to Moeen. Just how it is

alfie wrote:Good recovery for England ...Bairstow , Moeen , Woakes - and even Anderson hanging around at the end , I see...
That long batting lineup has saved the top order's blushes a few times now !
Note guildford's view that the score is still a little light for The Oval ; and that is probably true. Though it may be enough - with the advantage of bowling last - to do the job ; as , say , 230 would not have been.
First few overs this morning say few fears for the batsmen so the bowlers will need to be disciplined and accurate today if they want to prevent Pakistan from gaining a substantial advantage.  Bit of a re-run of Edgbaston , in a way ?   New look Pakistan order makes this a little different ; so nothing set in stone yet , I think.

Hope the over rate is better than yesterday !

Pakistan 196/3 at tea. Only two wickets so far today including that of the unnecessary/valuable [delete as you consider appropriate ] nightwatchman.

Seems to back up my view that our first innings score was circa 80 to 100 short of a par score. Admittedly, I didn't consider that would be a major problem due to the frailty of Pakistan's batting and the strength of our bowling. Beginning to think, I probably wrote off Pakistan's batters too quickly and overlooked our inability to even catch a cold!

Must admit I am only catching bits of this today - being an Olympic addict - the rowing is going much better than the cricket for GB

Not to mention world record women's 10000 m...

But : this is very similar to Edgbaston , is it not ? Except Pakistan are going a bit faster ... Might be harder to pull this back , I fear. By the time the new ball arrives , they will be close. Wickets badly needed.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Moeen currently having a blow with figures of 7-0-34-1. Some might say they are Rashid like. As I was banging on about at the start of this thread, their returns as a combo in India run the risk of being very expensive.

One thing I will positively remark upon in respect of Moeen is his impressive strike rate in Tests. That stood at 65.5 going into this match. To put that in some sort of context, it doesn't place him as a world great but it's still bl**dy impressive and compares favourably to a few, surprisingly so in the odd case.

A few examples from now and not so long ago -
* Yasir Shah - 53.7
* MacGill - 54.00
* Muralitharan - 55.0
* Warne - 57.4
* Swann - 60.1
* Moeen Ali - 65.5
* Saqlain Mushtaq - 67.6
* Mushtaq Ahmed - 67.7
* Tufnell - 93.2
* Rashid (admittedly only 3 Tests) - 102.6.

Moeen is doing alright - really he's a second spinner who's a #6 bat, but he's doing a different role for the team and doing it fairly well.

Our problem is that we don't have a #1 spinner. Really all the other options out there (Rashid, Ansari, Borthwick) are similar types of players to Moeen. Just how it is

Olly - pretty much agree although do fear that Rashid is likely to be too similar to Moeen as regards being unable to halt the flow of runs. Possible alternatives flagged earlier in this thread.

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Moeen currently having a blow with figures of 7-0-34-1. Some might say they are Rashid like. As I was banging on about at the start of this thread, their returns as a combo in India run the risk of being very expensive.

One thing I will positively remark upon in respect of Moeen is his impressive strike rate in Tests. That stood at 65.5 going into this match. To put that in some sort of context, it doesn't place him as a world great but it's still bl**dy impressive and compares favourably to a few, surprisingly so in the odd case.

A few examples from now and not so long ago -
* Yasir Shah - 53.7
* MacGill - 54.00
* Muralitharan - 55.0
* Warne - 57.4
* Swann - 60.1
* Moeen Ali - 65.5
* Saqlain Mushtaq - 67.6
* Mushtaq Ahmed - 67.7
* Tufnell - 93.2
* Rashid (admittedly only 3 Tests) - 102.6.

Moeen is doing alright - really he's a second spinner who's a #6 bat, but he's doing a different role for the team and doing it fairly well.

Our problem is that we don't have a #1 spinner. Really all the other options out there (Rashid, Ansari, Borthwick) are similar types of players to Moeen. Just how it is

Olly - pretty much agree although do fear that Rashid is likely to be too similar to Moeen as regards being unable to halt the flow of runs. Possible alternatives flagged earlier in this thread.

I'm not sure Batty at international level will be able to either - especially in India (same with Tredwell). And I doubt they'll want to go into the test with two spinners who bowl off spin (Moeen + another). I wouldn't be surprised to maybe see them go three spinners, three seamers at one point in India.

Rashid didn't do great last winter - but he did only play three games. And nearly bowled us to victory in day 5 of the 1st test tbf. I think he deserves another go this winter to show whether he has improved or not

Rashid will surely play in India. As will Moeen.

May be true they will be expensive ; but you can't pull your socks up if you're going barefoot ...There just isn't an Emburey around , let alone a Swann or a Laker...

At least they can both bat so will contribute in other ways. And a lot of runs will be key .

Meanwhile ; back here Moeen is probably the best chance to get a wicket in this session.

Best he gets it soon...

Alfie - I don't realistically doubt that Rashid will play in India. Just - perhaps clumsily - trying to make the point that he wouldn't if I was picking the team. Moeen makes my cut as a bowler due to his commendable strike rate but I wouldn't want another slowie alongside him with a similar expensive economy rate. That goes back to my putting Ansari and Batty in the mix earlier in the week.

Meanwhile, this 4th wicket doesn't want to give itself up ....

That is the worst review of all time. And it is not close.

Can't keep a good man down - Younus Khan reaches 50

Looks like these two are going to bat all day. Pakistan to be somewhere in the region of 320-3 at the close.

England need to come up with some new bowling plans.


Great batting from both Shafiq and the under-performing Younus.