England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

First topic message reminder :

The final Test of the summer will take place with England looking dominant after back to back wins, but Pakistan still with a chance of a series draw, which would be a great result for them

England are expected to be unchanged despite there yet again be talk of Rashid playing (he must have the highest number of non-caps in cricket history )

Pakistan might look to drop Hafeez and potentially take the risk of playing 5 bowlers

This is getting away from England. Not sure we can win from such a position twice in a row. Fully prepared for a slightly underwhelming but not catastrophic 2-2

I am getting worryingly good at these jinxes!

Pakistan throwing away all there good work again as Misbah and Iftikhar depart in the same over to Woakes

(Iftikhar doesn't look anywhere near good enough for a test #6 on that showing)

What a magnificent knock from Younus Khan, 100 off 139 balls

Pakistan end on 340-6, with a lead of 12 runs - Younus and Sarfraz at the crease

Goes without saying these two hold the key for Pakistan - and England have a chance to restrict this lead to 50 if they nip one out early

Pakistan's day but those two late wickets for Woakes keep England well in the game. The first session tomorrow would seem to be very important.

England strong favourites after day 2, despite not being helped by Cook's strange choice at the toss and the amount of drops.

Should be a simple matter from here to set Pakistan north of 250 to win, and from there the result is a formality.

the series has been a story of Pakistan playing below potential.....at about 60-70%...a side not streamlined to regular test cricket.
although in Asad, Athar and Aslam.....they have shown glimpses  of build the inning typetest match batting skills that will replace Younis and Misbah....
Younis has finally delivered a hundred and was looking in imperious touch in the second 50 of his inning......if he can bat through and gets some support form WK and tail.....he will put Pak in winning position.

and Eng punching above 100% ....especially via the bowlers and WK who can bat.......a unit organized and optimized for test cricket...they read / analyze situations well and act appropriately to win sessions much more than their opponent.

Duty281 wrote:England strong favourites after day 2, despite not being helped by Cook's strange choice at the toss and the amount of drops.

Should be a simple matter from here to set Pakistan north of 250 to win, and from there the result is a formality.

Duty - as ever it's a game of opinions but Cook's choice at the toss wasn't ''strange'' to me. I mentioned on day one about Cook commenting that Alec Stewart, who should know the Oval and its wickets, had made ''pretty clear'' that we should bat.

I've also now just seen David Lloyd's (a decent analyst when not clowning about) take on day one -
''You would have to say that England were careless in that morning session. Although there was a tinge of green, the locals would say don't be fooled - it's a batting day. There was a little bit of swing but nothing untoward. England just needed to be careful, not carefree.''
I probably qualify as a semi-regular at the Oval - no surprise then that I'm with Lloyd and the locals.

I obviously share your concern and frustration at the drops.

I don't think anything is yet ''a simple matter'' in this Test although would be worried if you were saying anything else.

An hour gone ...no wickets ...

I am concerned this could be getting away a bit : Younus has dropped anchor , and Sarfraz scores rapidly .

England came back from 103 down last time - but I don't think we can guarantee that will happen again.

Not panicking ; but right now I think Pakistan are clear favorites - and could be out of sight an hour after lunch unless England can break this stand soon.

Hi Alfie - an hour after lunch is still some time off but I fully take your point. Pushing water uphill, I tried to convey to Duty earlier that I didn't think this was going to be a walk in the park.

Unable to watch this morning, any chances so far?

Hi Guildford

Have been watching a bit of this and a bit of Australia in Sri Lanka , so haven't seen it all - but I think apart from a few from Anderson that beat the edges they've been pretty safe ; and no chances gone down.

Duty is resolutely optimistic (except at the football ) often in defiance of logic...the counterweight to Trebell

While I , of course , remain totally balanced

Wicket

Woakes with the vital break...and an excellent catch from the oft criticized (not unfairly) Jonny B.

Really needed that.

Even with that wicket , the lead is at 79 now ; and this ball is 25 overs old . Just as well the free scoring Sarfraz is gone ; but this tail could still help Younus to add enough runs to give England a very uphill task.
How many would be too many ? 150 ? Don't think this pitch will break up much , though I'll take advice on that from the Surrey Mafia...

I think England will need to make 400 at least batting again - which of ourselves could happen. Just concerned that there are a couple of unreliable slots in that batting order and one can't expect the same people to bail them out Every Time...

alfie wrote:Even with that wicket , the lead is at 79 now ; and this ball is 25 overs old .  Just as well the free scoring Sarfraz is gone ; but this tail could still help Younus to add enough runs to give England a very uphill task.
How many would be too many ? 150 ?   Don't think this pitch will break up much , though I'll take advice on that from the Surrey Mafia...

I think England will need to make 400 at least batting again - which of ourselves could happen. Just concerned that there are a couple of unreliable slots in that batting order and one can't expect the same people to bail them out Every Time...

Alfie - it should probably start to help the spinners a bit more from tomorrow but, for sure, it won't absolutely break up. For England to be in with a decent chance of winning, I would want Pakistan having to make at least 300 in the final innings. On that basis and the way things are now, we're therefore going to need in excess of 400 in our second dig.

Pakistan need their tail to understand that their only job for now is ''stay with Younus''.

Thanks guildford. That was about what I thought.

Pakistan have a second spinner this time - though he didn't look too deadly in the first innings. And Yasir will be keen to get back in the wickets...but I suspect England's main threat will be losing early wickets to the quicks after a long time in the field. Really need to wrap this up quickly (and cheaply) after lunch.

I think this is a match winning lead already, with more to be added. With Wahab in the team and more spin for Shah, I doubt we are about to see Edbaston v2

Heard Botham about 30 minutes ago say we had made the ''wrong'' decision in choosing to bat. He really is so incredibly lazy and oafish. If that was truly his view, he should have been shouting it at 11 o'clock on Thursday morning.

He is as thick as pig sh*t. Our current problems in this Test are not due to our choice following the fall of the coin. I, and many better than me, still believe we made the right choice in batting although I accept a case could be made for going with the ball. What no one can accept is waiting until the third afternoon to voice disagreement.

conventional wisdom suggests Pak will win.....and may give even an innings defeat scare....T3 result only holds me back from pronouncing that with 100% certainity

KP_fan wrote:conventional wisdom suggests Pak will win.....and may give even an innings defeat scare....T3 result only holds me back from pronouncing that with 100% certainity

the 9th wicket partnership nearing 100 runs is probably the straw that has broken the camel's back and doubled Pak's lead to 200

Morale deflating partnership this....

I'm fine with the choice to bat first.

But I'm not fine with the lazy selection of the "winning team" ; nor with the stubborn refusal to admit they needed to be a bit careful for the first couple of hours.

They got ahead of themselves ; and it has cost them the series win. And the number one spot though I don't much care about that.

They aren't getting out of this one.

well this was a thorough walloping.  Looks like Pakistan have every chance of going second in the world and their ability to dominate England at times suggests they deserve it.

overall engs bowling has been a bit disappointing and the batting has failed too often again. to choose to bat and fail so badly isn't good enough.

it's right they didn't go to number one, they didn't deserve it. still far far too fragile with bat in hand.

That has to be the final nail in the coffin for both Hales and Vince, neither have the technique for test cricket.

agreed.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That has to be the final nail in the coffin for both Hales and Vince, neither have the technique for test cricket.

Trouble is the selectors have backed themselves into a corner - by persisting through the summer with Vince despite his obvious deficiencies they've left themselves without an obvious alternative. Hales fair enough - he made runs against Sri Lanka , and again at Edgbaston ; think his silly feud Yasir over that disputed catch has addled his brain here. He is under pressure for his spot now - but unless Root goes back to open in India (or Ali ?) - neither of which plans I like - who comes in ?

For once I agree with Boycott : much rather have Root at four . With only two top order players who can be trusted , better not put them together - eggs in one basket , etc.

Not that it matters now ; for some reason , England seem to be unable to perform in London lately so this match was always a disaster waiting to happen. Any sign of rain ?

And my apologies for the grumpiness in the above post .

Must admit I am very cheesed off with the team performance in this match ; but I imagine they will be even more so themselves. I just hope they really learn something from it this time ; because it does seem very much a case of repeating the same mistakes they made a week ago , And also it looks as if they underestimated their opponents.

And congrats to Pakistan - they will have earned a drawn series when they finish this off some time tomorrow

Hopeless situation, summed up by the hopeless dismissal of the utterly hopeless James Vince . Won't waste my time tuning in tomorrow, will check at some point to see what we lost by

Haven't seen a ball today, just seen the scorecard and it's a massacre.

I'm gonna guess Vince was caught in the slips? Will watch the highlights at 9 and post more thoughts then

The extraordinarily long batting lineup means I would be far from writing England off even now. All that they need is one good partnership. Bowling side, when they take out 4 or 5 wickets before the batting side reaches hundred would be diflated by the continuous flow of proper batsmen throughout the lineup. And at some point in the innings, one good partnership will arrive for England for sure? Their most dependable batsman in crisis of late, Bairstow is still there to fight on, and Moeen Ali and Cris Woakes are also developing into very decent crisis batsmen. Pakistan will have to remain on the very top of their A game if they are to see this one through and draw the series.
Younus Khan deserves nothing less for that absolutely fabulous innings!

Well that was quite a galling days play for England, a superb one for Pakistan

Firstly - Younus Khan what a magnificent innings. A shame for Pakistan that he decided to try and bat in the air for the first three test matches, but that innings has single handedly setup this match for them. Ably supported by the tail, who showed good resiliance today.

England with the ball - Woakes again the pick of the bowlers, Finn/Anderson were fairly meh, Broad disappointing. Moeen poor. Not a good performance all round

Thought the Pakistan opening bowlers were superb - dried up the runs, unlike at Edgbaston and then allowed Wahab/Yasir to come on and really attack. Yasir superb, a return to form for him after the last two tests.

England's batting - well firstly two utterly ridiculous reviews, so if we get a howler now we're screwed. Hales in particular didn't even confer with his partner, very poor. Been extremely disappointed with his behaviour this test match, not befitting of a test match player and if he did indeed entire the third umpires room without permission in the 1st innings in my opinion he should be suspended for a game.

Vince - well we've said it all summer, just not good enough at all. Should've been dropped after the 2nd test, no idea why he played the 3rd and just sheer stubbornness that he played in the 4th. Wouldn't even make my squad for the India tour, hasn't learnt from any of his mistakes, wafting drives all the time despite that being how he gets out literally every time.

Going to take a minor miracle for England to save the game from here. Will need hundreds from at least two batsmen you'd think. MSP mentions England's long batting lineup...well we only have Ali/Woakes to come, and Ballance who is currently in hasn't been lighting it up. Broad is a bunny against Wahab/Amir/Sohail.

Guildford is spot about Botham too - he is a complete clown and Sky need to get rid of him as soon as possible. Doesn't offer any insight, and he isn't even a good laugh - spends more time talking about freaking golf than cricket!!!

To be honest - a drawn series is the fair result here. Pakistan have thoroughly impressed me, and have shown a great deal of character to come back from the drubbing at Old Trafford and the missed opportunity of Edgbaston. England are what they are - an inconsistent outfit, with question marks over members of the side

No idea who comes into the batting - as said before the Taylor retirement a real blow to this side (I know he was hardly established, but I think he was primed to do so with the tours of the summer and winter). Who are the next cabs off the rank so to speak? Borthwick? Roy? A left field choice like Hain/Haseeb?

Bell-Drummond? Could open and push Hales down to three. Has batted three for Notts quite a bit I believe. If you are ditching Hales too... Westley? Duckett? Clarke?

Hales and Vince need to be jettisoned completely, when the opener you bring in for top order impetus is scoring slower than Cook it's definitely not working.

Yeah, Hales and Vince have to be jettisoned. Neither are up to Test Match standard, though there's no shame in that.

England will still win this test, and with it the series, but this game must serve as a stringent wake-up call before the winter.

One of Bairstow/Ballance will get a ton, perhaps both, but they need to make it a big'un.

To be honest I think a 2-2 result is probably about right. If nothing else it could help England realise that attacking stroke play is not always the correct approach and will not always come off. Twice now we have failed to post a good first innings total due to a lack of careful and applied risk free batting. For me tthe top order need to understand that their job is to build a platform in the first innings thus allowing the lower middle order to play their natural attacking stroke play. Not everybody needs to bat like stokes or Bairstow. To be honest this team lacks a Trott type of player at 3.

Right then, 326 more runs needed for England.

Bat the day, lads.

The Surrey website has just posted trying to flog day 5 (Monday) tickets at 20 quid a time. Admittedly, there's a full refund guarantee in the event of no play but still somewhat optimistic I feel.

Even though Moeen maintained his impressive strike rate and took a couple of wickets in Pakistan's innings, he didn't bowl well and ended up with the disappointing and expensive figures of 23-1-128-2.

Meanwhile, in the Roses Match at Old Trafford, Rashid was also going at more than 5 an over and has just been removed from the attack with the figures of 23-1-117-0.

Nothing is guaranteed, good or bad, in cricket but those figures do nothing to ease my concerns about them operating as a combo in India.

LivinginItaly wrote:To be honest I think a 2-2 result is probably about right. If nothing else it could help England realise that attacking stroke play is not always the correct approach and will not always come off. Twice now we have failed to post a good first innings total due to a lack of careful and applied risk free batting. For me tthe top order need to understand that their job is to build a platform in the first innings thus allowing the lower middle order to play their natural attacking stroke play. Not everybody needs to bat like stokes or Bairstow. To be honest this  team lacks a Trott type of player at 3.

I'd actually say we lack a Trescothick type player opening, somebody with the ability to judge the situation and bat accordingly.

I would like to see a bit more flexibility at number depending on the match situation, i've never been an advocate of batsmen having fixed positions in the order, if the ball is moving about i'd rather see Ballance there and if it's quite placid then Root.

Another 189 runs will make this competitive!

English hopes rely on these two.

Bairstow and Moeen once again did a fine job this morning ...sadly the latter gone minutes before the interval when looking quite comfortable.
At least it now appears Pakistan will have to bat again ; but unless these two and the tail are planning to reprise Botham/Dilley etc from 1981 it is only postponing the inevitable...

A thought : at least a drawn Test series will confer some kind of meaning on the 3 formats points tally. Will suit the publicists.

Relax Alfie - Sir Chris has got this

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Relax Alfie - Sir Chris has got this

Sir Chris was wonderful ... On a bike. But he's retired now ...not sure Jason Kenny plays cricket

Oh ...I see who you mean...

But oops. Really needed a runout

Bairstow gone ....

Will be an innings win after all , perhaps

Finn and Anderson clinging on, but Anderson's out LBW.

Lead up to 39. 40 to win.

Pakistan 0/2 after the first over, 11/4 after six, and 25 all out.

Pathetic batting performance from England in both innings, the selectors have to take some of the blame for persisting with players who clearly are not up to it. Bell-Drummond or Borthwick may not have done better but they certainly couldn't have done worse than Hales and Vince.

So Pakistan need 40 to win and deservingly take a share of the series........ With runs on the board, Yasir got back to his usual self and did it for his side. He wasn't at his best after the first test, but his team, particularly the batsmen didn't help him much there, neither did the toss. But here he is, along with Wahab and Sohail, cleaning up England just for the batsman to clean things up and finish it off.

--given they get to travel less, have no real home games and is a country a bit in strife.....Pakistan's effort to square the series in foreign conditions against a top side is remarkable.

--They are undoubtedly the more talented side....
the positives for Pak--> athar ali, asad shafiq are good solid test match capable batsman, WK sarfaraz is safe and can bat well... and and opener sami aslam shows some promise.

Wahab is a destroyer, sohail top class and Yasir had a role in winning two tests......amir didn't live to the potential and rahat although good isn't in the top league that Pak pacers generally are
Misbah and Younis fired 1 in 4 times but when they did pak won.

--Eng are a better organized side, with access to better funds, facilities and have a calmer approach compared to the chaotic Pakistanis....and hence won two tests.

they are blessed with stokes, woakes, ali and bairstow( and a back-up in Butler) all of whom can play almost as specialist batsmen...but make it into the side  on their other traits.....

and it's this depth of their batting that bails them often..especially in their own conditions....and papers over the lack of quality top order batting other than Cook and root.

Cook and root will deliver @ average 50....as they probably did in this series ( Haven't looked at averages)

they need two more proper batsmen especially when they play Ind, pak and Lanka in UAE or sub-continent.

a good series and a fair result in the end

Ok, my sign in name here is a giveaway - I admit - but, here's an England team for the First Test this winter, in Bangla/UAE/ similar conditions:

Cook, Roy, Root, Bairstow, Ali, Stokes, Foakes (wkt), Woakes, Ansari, Broad, Anderson.

Rationale: Bairstow and Ali are batting like front line middle order batsmen and could sit two places higher; Roy is much more than a one day thumper; we will need a proper wicketkeeper in spin-friendly conditions not a batsman who makes a decent job of the gloves standing back; Ansari is bowling well - probably better than Rashid.
This team bats down to 9 1/2, offers four front line seamers and up to three genuine spin options. What's not to like?

SimonofSurrey wrote:Ok, my sign in name here is a giveaway - I admit - but, here's an England team for the First Test this winter, in Bangla/UAE/ similar conditions:

Cook, Roy, Root, Bairstow, Ali, Stokes, Foakes (wkt), Woakes, Ansari, Broad, Anderson.

Rationale: Bairstow and Ali are batting like front line middle order batsmen and could sit two places higher; Roy is much more than a one day thumper; we will need a proper wicketkeeper in spin-friendly conditions not a batsman who makes a decent job of the gloves standing back; Ansari is bowling well - probably better than Rashid.
This team bats down to 9 1/2, offers four front line seamers and up to three genuine spin options. What's not to like?    

I can't advocate Roy opening the batting in tests when he doesn't even bat top 4 for Surrey tbh. Think he's one who could be better in tests than in first class cricket (as JDizzle has said in the past)