England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

First topic message reminder :

The final Test of the summer will take place with England looking dominant after back to back wins, but Pakistan still with a chance of a series draw, which would be a great result for them

England are expected to be unchanged despite there yet again be talk of Rashid playing (he must have the highest number of non-caps in cricket history )

Pakistan might look to drop Hafeez and potentially take the risk of playing 5 bowlers

A very good series indeed. Agree with most of what KPF has said. Think Misbah was better than just ones in 4, 1 decisive performance, but he was in the runs in other games as well, though didn't come to the party in the last game. But at 42, he's doing a remarkable job and hope he'll be there for a bit more time.......
Azhar Ali can develop into a solid all-condition batsman and Asad Shafiq is shaping up well. But the opening slot is a problem, and they have to find a decent all-rounder at 6. The lower order just isn't good enough with the bat, they really don't have a good number 8 or 9, Amir, Yasir and Wahab are good number 10s who can be OK at 9...... Sohail and Rahit are archetypal number 11s! And there is no decent parttime bowling option among the batsmen. Ali's offspin isn't worth it, and Hafeez can't buy a run besides being banned from bowling. Iftikhar has to either shape up well or they have to find a decent all-round option at 6. And sooner rather than later, replacements for Misbah and Younus......
But for all their troubles, Pakistan did remarkably well in this series.

Pakistan could have benefited from Sania's husband shoaib whose retirement was sudden.....and in his last test series he had a 200 and a 6-fer

a perfect batsman and bowler who would have brought a lot of balance.....let's see if this iftikaar guy is any good....need to see him over 3 or 4 games

Just had a look at Iftikaar's record, his domestic record is nothing impressive in particularly. An average of under 34 at FC level, an even lesser average in List A, and a good T-20 average of 31 at an SR of 120. clearly parttime with the ball. We don't have many who follow Pak domestic cricket here, but don't they have anyone in the lines of Razzaq/ Mahmood/Malik/Afridi at least?

For England, the talent is there, but the right mentality isn't and there's a lack of application from the batsman. Stokes the worst offender usually didn't even play much.

Not too disappointed having reflected on the result. We were very poor for large periods of the series, so 2-2 is a fair result, a series win would paper over the cracks

A reality check for England will probably do them good and focus the mind of finding one or two more Test quality batsman, batsmen not playing like millionaires all the time trying to smack every ball to or over the fence and identifying a lead spinner that Moeen can support, even if that's a Paul Harris type bowler i.e. will go for 2s and 3s an over not 5 or 6

I would like to see someone else take the gloves, move Bairstow up the order to 5 as a specialist batsman. Hales stays by his fingertips at the moment. Am not sure where Moeen fits in when Stokes is fit but a nice problem to have. Batting line up could be something like:

Cook
Hales
Root
Ballance/new player
Bairstow
Stokes
New WK (Buttler/Foakes)

For me the lineup for the winter would be:

Cook
AN Opener (not sure Hales is the man, but no-one banging the door down in CC)
Root
Bairstow
Ali (As a batsman who bowls)
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
A Spinner (probably Rashid)
Broad
Anderson


My main concern with moving Bairstow up would be that removing the gloves could put more pressure on him and reduce the runs contributed. However while his keeping has improved immensely I am not sure it is good enough.

Ali has shown he can be a proper batsman - and I firmly believe he should be viewed as a batting all-rounder.

LondonTiger wrote:For me the lineup for the winter would be:

Cook
AN Opener (not sure Hales is the man, but no-one banging the door down in CC)
Root
Bairstow
Ali (As a batsman who bowls)
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
A Spinner (probably Rashid)
Broad
Anderson

in theory it's not bad....should they lose with this team.....they will be blamed for
"going into tests with a bits n pieces team"

Just a shame that the Bangladesh leg may well get cancelled.

KP_fan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:For me the lineup for the winter would be:

Cook
AN Opener (not sure Hales is the man, but no-one banging the door down in CC)
Root
Bairstow
Ali (As a batsman who bowls)
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
A Spinner (probably Rashid)
Broad
Anderson
   

in theory it's not bad....should they lose with this team.....they will be blamed for
"going into tests with a bits n pieces team"

Well quite. Cook has correctly stated that the issue is they rely too much on the tail to bail them, out. Starting the tail at 4 isn't going to solve that.
The top 5 need to be dedicated batsmen who are picked as the best at their craft. If they can bowl a bit, or keep, as well.. great. Now based on recent form (2 matches) you could argue Ali is pretty handy and a legit test bat ...but we are talking about a guy who has already been kicked down the order for failing in that role and who still averages in the low 30's.
Bairstow record over the last year or so has been pretty sharp no question and yeah I can buy him being picked as a specialist ...if its thought that this would noticeably improve the glovework and produce better depth to the batting than picking a specialist bat and Bairstow staying as keeper. I cant help feeling if Buttler, who was dropped for failing to produce with the bat and not being a great keeper, is a better option than our next in line batsman then you are really aren't addressing they problem of runs.

Ali is a proper batsman, and the fact that they have tried to turn him into an international spinner has blinded us to that. The decision to open with him last Winter was not a good one, but his performances for England in the middle order have been good. I feel he is the best player available to us to bat at 5/6.

If we had another middle order batsman we could trust, then I would be happy to see them come in at 4 and Bairtstow keep the keeper gloves - but not sure who that would be.

LondonTiger wrote:For me the lineup for the winter would be:

Cook
AN Opener (not sure Hales is the man, but no-one banging the door down in CC)
Root
Bairstow
Ali (As a batsman who bowls)
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
A Spinner (probably Rashid)
Broad
Anderson


My main concern with moving Bairstow up would be that removing the gloves could put more pressure on him and reduce the runs contributed. However while his keeping has improved immensely I am not sure it is good enough.

Ali has shown he can be a proper batsman - and I firmly believe he should be viewed as a batting all-rounder.

An opener I haven't seen at all but am hearing good things about is Haseeb Hameed. Still only 19 but a right hander producing some solid performances for Lancs. Currently into his sixteenth first class game, an average above 46, three centuries to his name now and a strike rate around 36. Furthermore, he's only hit one six - I like that, proper opener. He's gone through the youth groups with Lancs and the same with England to under 19 level. I don't know nearly enough about him to say how he would cope at this stage of his career with a tour Of India but perhaps someone to keep in mind.

My issue with batsmen 4, 5, 6 and 7 in Tiger's team is that they all seem (too) similar in attacking, aggressive style. Sure, that can reap rewards but I would like to see one place going to someone with a bit of old fashioned stodge. Hildreth might fit the bill there although any Test opportunity seems to have passed him by - I'm not sure why he never seemed in the mix. It's because we're already well served with hitters that I'm reluctant to push Roy forward at the current time.

I know it didn't work out great in UAE...but with India's seam attack being far less potent, could we move Ali up to open with Cook? I wouldn't be against it...

Ali is not a full international quality batsman...IMHO

That he gets picked as the first spinner and a specialist bowler....take the pressure off him as a batsman...and that he bats at No.8 further frees him  from the pressures of expectations....anything the No.8 delivers is a bonus.

Put him in the top 5 and he will turn into averaging 32 type again.

Butler/ Bairstow/ Woakes/ Stokes/ Ali---> all are good "like specialist batters".....a) in home conditions; b) under the assurance of batting being a "second trait"

I would give a couple of the middle order a chance to move up. They might take to it and have so far shown more aptitude than the likes of Vince and Hales. We would probably still come up with a combination that has Woakes at 8.

I think its been proven that batting Ali at 8 means he just slogs and gets out - he has made two hundreds this season after being given a bit of responsibility

What happened to Ian Bell?

Also Compton hit a load of runs the other day

For openers theres a couple of guys from the Lions who have done very well against Sri Lankas Z team and over the winter. Perosnally Id like to see Hales moved down and maybe yet another name tried out, but its really too soon for Duckett or Bell Drummond. Malan an outside shot (although he cant spell his own name which counts against people for me), I suspec tone of the three will tour but most likely only feature in limited overs games.

I really feel we need 5 full time bastmen as well as the batting all rounders. The failing in this area is the biggest issue England have had both in this series and going back. If we are saying that Stokes/Ali are amongst the best 5 batsmen England have available then they are in a bit of toruble. Neither have done enough either pre sleection or since selection to warrant a place solely on their batting. Alis averages 20 overseas with the bat, although he has had an excellent series against Pakistan his overall record still isnt great. As an allrounder and 2nd/3rd spinner hes a fantastic squad member for India...but I really dont see him long term outscoring a proper batsman like Ballance.
Stokes too had an awful series with the bat in UAE and overall a low 30s average. Id also be concerned about workload if hes expected to stay in and bat long innings on a regular basis. The huge double in SA shows hes capable of doing it, but that was very much an exception. Does he really have the potential to become a test batsman averaging 40+?

Trying to fix the problem of too many all rounders and not enough runs form specialists by moving the all rounders up the order and bringing more into the side smacks of spider and fly eating....but ata the same time its hard to sustain a strong argument against.

Pathetic shambles from England over this series.

Pakistan played as well as you can expect them to in English conditions - the odd good day, but nothing spectacular. They're a below-average side in these conditions, and England should have put them away with considerable ease. It's strange that Pakistan are getting a lot of praise - if England had played on a 6/10 basis through the series, rather than 3 or 4 out of ten, it would have been a 4-0.

England were atrocious. Complacent to the point of idiocy. They threw away the First Test by batting like fools in the chase, and they threw away the Fourth Test with a succession of awful fielding and crap application with the bat.

The one good thing is it will dearly focus Cook's mind for the winter series and beyond, just like losing to South Africa in 2012 paved the way for a resilient showing in India. And a bonus this time is that England get to play Bangladesh as a warm-up.

Well now the first thing to say is Pakistan deserve a lot of praise for coming back to draw the series ...winning Tests overseas at all is a fairly rare thing these days for anyone.

England were very disappointing at the end : Duty is going overboard (must have lost a few quid betting on them judging from his pre-match assertions I did try to warn him it was no sure thing ) : but they really made a mess of their first innings - and from there on all it needed was a few vital dropped catches and Pakistan were away... They were never going to come back from the dead twice in a row.

Most frustrating thing is that they do not seem to be learning from their mistakes. Selectors persist with players who simply aren't firing in hopes they will come good - seems to me you can do so with one player in the top six as an "apprentice" - but not three.
Coach apparently wants them to play an attacking game . Fair enough , it can be exciting. But a time and place for everything , surely...I imagine the Charge of the Light Brigade was very exciting ; but the casualties were heavy. 2-1 up with one to play ; win the toss : plus you know the opposition is short of bowling and fades after 70 overs in the field : common sense says keep the fireworks for the evening session.
And some players - Vince may well have more technical ability than Ballance (who still looks short of true Test class to me , despite his determination - and even he has got out the same way to Yasir twice in a row) ..but he has not shown the judgement required of a top six batsman. Hales lost it at The Oval : maybe he was unlucky in the first innings ; but by letting his annoyance continue to rule him he just dropped catches , stirred up Pakistan , and failed again ...he probably goes to India ; but he has brought a sure thing back to a serious debate ...I'm wondering if he will be a long term solution.

See a lot of ideas about moving all rounders up the order ; but I agree with Gooseberry , guildford and KP f : might just diminish the guaranteed late order runs , without actually solving the top order issues.
I am OK with moving one player (possibly Moeen) up the order in india - though I don't see it as a regular solution so it wouldn't be my preferred option ; but a batting order with Bairstow at four , followed by Ali Stokes Woakes and Rashid , is asking for trouble , I think. I don't like removing the strong parts of the team in order to shore up the weak points : despite his big score at Edgbaston I am not sure putting Root at three has actually helped the overall batting performance.

Will be back with recommendations later.

Hope Bayliss is paying attention

I see Guildford mentioned him earlier - but Haseeb Hameed of Lancs has now passed 1,000 FC runs this summer and has just hit his second century of the match against Yorkshire (4th of the summer) at just 19 years old - breaking all Atherton's Lancashire records for youngest to reach such landmarks...worth a spot on the tour this winter? If you're good enough you're old enough...and I seem to remember a young Mr Root making his debut in India unexpectedly last time

Duty281 wrote:Pathetic shambles from England over this series.

Pakistan played as well as you can expect them to in English conditions - the odd good day, but nothing spectacular. They're a below-average side in these conditions, and England should have put them away with considerable ease. It's strange that Pakistan are getting a lot of praise - if England had played on a 6/10 basis through the series, rather than 3 or 4 out of ten, it would have been a 4-0.

.

actually it's Pakistan that came within a few hours of getting away with a draw in T3...and consequently the team that was closer to a 2-1 series win

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I see Guildford mentioned him earlier - but Haseeb Hameed of Lancs has now passed 1,000 FC runs this summer and has just hit his second century of the match against Yorkshire (4th of the summer) at just 19 years old - breaking all Atherton's Lancashire records for youngest to reach such landmarks...worth a spot on the tour this winter? If you're good enough you're old enough...and I seem to remember a young Mr Root making his debut in India unexpectedly last time

Guildford mentioned (slightly tongue in cheek?) his strike rate and how he was a 'proper opener', but what has impressed me most about him is how he has improved his strike rate! I worry about players scoring at 30 as that is mentally tough to bat long every time and, to state the obvious, you have to bat a lot of balls for your runs and give good bowlers enough time and they will get you out. The fact he is scoring faster now, around 50, shows he has definitely found his feet and is feeling comfortable. I'd take him.

JDizzle wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I see Guildford mentioned him earlier - but Haseeb Hameed of Lancs has now passed 1,000 FC runs this summer and has just hit his second century of the match against Yorkshire (4th of the summer) at just 19 years old - breaking all Atherton's Lancashire records for youngest to reach such landmarks...worth a spot on the tour this winter? If you're good enough you're old enough...and I seem to remember a young Mr Root making his debut in India unexpectedly last time

Guildford mentioned (slightly tongue in cheek?) his strike rate and how he was a 'proper opener', but what has impressed me most about him is how he has improved his strike rate! I worry about players scoring at 30 as that is mentally tough to bat long every time and, to state the obvious, you have to bat a lot of balls for your runs and give good bowlers enough time and they will get you out.The fact he is scoring faster now, around 50, shows he has definitely found his feet and is feeling comfortable. I'd take him.

And of course , because you'll get fewer bad balls in Tests , the scoring rate problem is really highlighted. I think that is a good point.

His figures look good. Can't judge without seeing him , but you'd think he'd be on their radar.

Id seem him as a sure fire Lions/Performance squad type ...but surely too soon to be dumped straight into an overseas test tour as an opener.
We have had a few openers over recent years who have had good runs of form in the county scene then either dissapeared back to medicocrity or been picked and looked short.

One for the future hopefully

So the result in Sri Lanka puts India top of the test rankings, followed by their mates Pakistan, then Aus and England tied on points with Sri Lanka up to 6th.

All very close and competitive between the top 7, SA have had a bad run but you cant write them off as a force. teams have been able to go away and get results, which is great for the game. Upcoming matches against New Zealand should be very good.

Test cricket isnt dead yet.


On another note of the top 7 teams only New Zealand have a regularly picked spinner with a SR rate worse than Moeens and all of those players have a far better economy/average. #remarkable

Get Haseeb on the tour to Bangladesh and see if he's upto it in the nets I reckon