GGG v Brook - Can anybody make a case for Brook ??

First topic message reminder :

I'm seeing a welterweight who isn't lightning fast and doesn't carry huge power at 147.....A welterweight that isn't the most defensively efficient and a guy that went life and death with the ordinary Jones and narrowly outpointed the rugged but decent Shawn Porter...Moving up two weights to fight the best fighter in the sport......(Brook has improved but his weaknesses remain)

Hearn's only line of spin seems to be that both are the best in their divisions and Brook will be better at middle... which like I wrote on an earlier thread makes one wonder why he's never campaigned at 154 ???.....If he's not as good at welter why campaign there ??......

Of course in the last 30 or so years there have been admirable efforts from welters to claim the middle by jumping two divisions and avoiding 154...........Nunn v Starling being one.......A very good performance by Marlon against a great middle.......But Starling had one of the best defences the game has ever seen and Nunn wasn't really a pressure fighter........Nunn won a majority but it was close !!!

I see a lot of Azumah Nelson in GGG.........one of these fighters who appears to be all over you even when he isn't......He'll make you work three minutes a round while every so often banging in some hurtful and wearing combinations.....Decent speed....Accuracy...Great footwork....Good tank and defensively sound........

Like Nelson he's a master craftsman.............

For me any advantages Brook has are negated at the higher weight...He's hitting bigger men and the extra weight will slow him down...

Yes these guys are both the best in their divisions but it is "13 pounds" and GGG to me is the better fighter anyway.....If we are talking two weight classes and the same poundage (bar 1 pound)....Would anyone have wanted to see Ward v Canelo at 168 ???


I can't see a good fight but I've been wrong plenty of times..

If anyone can make a case for Brook I'd love to hear it ......Maybe even convince me to buy it because the jury is out on that one..

Kell Brook is a comparatively better boxer than McGregor is MMA fighter, there's no chance he loses to somebody at the level of Diaz.

Just read this:

www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/news/golovkin-serious-plan-biggest-challenge-182507863.html?client=safari

... Sounds like he has a special plan for special k.

It's stating the obvious but golovkin dictates every fight I've seen. Whether it's the seek and destroy stuff or behind the jab like Lemieux. The guy to beat him will need to impose their plan on him and take him out of his comfort zone. Brook isn't going to over-power him, so he'll either have to back foot counter punch or try to control the range and beat him to the punch, so golovkin doesn't get set... And then move off, rinse and repeat.

I can see him doing this potentially for a while, I just don't see how he keeps it up against a guy who cuts the ring off so well, sets traps and punishes mistakes.

I think brook might do ok early on, might, but I think golovkin will look to work the body and probably end it mid rounds.

Diaz was bigger than Conor, so maybe Kell would lose to a big tough 160 fighter.

Also I can't imagine Kell beating anyone the calibre of Jose Aldo.

AdamT wrote:Diaz was bigger than Conor, so maybe Kell would lose to a big tough 160 fighter.

Also I can't imagine Kell beating anyone the calibre of Jose Aldo.

Diaz and McGregor are roughly the same size, one just made his reputation beating up much smaller fighters than himself.

Diaz is about 10 pounds heavier. Though you are right about him fighting smaller guys.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

AdamT wrote:Diaz was bigger than Conor, so maybe Kell would lose to a big tough 160 fighter.

Also I can't imagine Kell beating anyone the calibre of Jose Aldo.

Diaz and McGregor are roughly the same size, one just made his reputation beating up much smaller fighters than himself.

Whilst I agree with the second part, Diaz is naturally the bigger, stronger, taller guy. CM is a little guy who has packed on a lot of muscle.

In fact in the rematch Diaz looked about 14 pounds heavier. Two weight classes in boxing terms.

Love Conor or hate him, but Kell Brook record doesn't compare.

Also Hammer, numerous boxers have made a name beating up smaller opponents.

Canelo, Hatton and Haye (cw), to name a few did the same.

Not saying Conor is the greatest ever, but he has some class wins. Also Aldo was a p4p number two and he destroyed him in a few seconds.

I can't remember bigger fighters like Cotto or Margarito doing that to Pacquiao.

AdamT wrote:In fact in the rematch Diaz looked about 14 pounds heavier. Two weight classes in boxing terms.

Love Conor or hate him, but Kell Brook record doesn't compare.

Also Hammer, numerous boxers have made a name beating up smaller opponents.

Canelo, Hatton and Haye (cw), to name a few did the same.

Not saying Conor is the greatest ever, but he has some class wins. Also Aldo was a p4p number two and he destroyed him in a few seconds.

I can't remember bigger fighters like Cotto or Margarito doing that to Pacquiao.

Pac also never walked onto a shot like a f*cking novice! I like Conor but if he didn't have such heavy hands to enable him to get guys out quickly, his poor boxing and virtually non existent ground game would see him with a damn sight more losses on his record. McGregor apparently trains with two boxers from Ireland who are no great shakes but who own him in sparring. He's improved but his boxing needs so much more work.

Trying to think of a case for Brook but its really hard.

I was surprised GGG only came on Sunday giving him 6 days to get over jetlag. I should think it will have gone by Saturday but his sleep could be really messed up this week which isn’t ideal. Appreciate he fights in Europe a lot so I am sure he knows what he is doing but 2 weeks seems more sensible.

Not sure why everyone is going on about Brooks speed. He isn’t fast a WW so i don’t think at MW its going to be fight winner for him with the extra stone. He does put his punches together very well though and if he has gained some power then maybe and thats a big maybe he can make GGG think twice about ploughing in.

I think Brooks biggest asset though he is he seems to be really believe he can do it. In his interviews he comes across very confident and excited. If you don’t believe you can do it you won’t but if you believe you can then you have a tiny chance against GGG.

I think Brook might do a bit better than most people think but will get stopped by round 6 which is no embarrassment. If he can get it past 10 rounds or even points then I will have to say he's done amazingly well and should get a lot of credit for it.

Hope he does it but just can’t see it.

melv500 wrote:Trying to think of a case for Brook but its really hard.

I was surprised GGG only came on Sunday giving him 6 days to get over jetlag. I should think it will have gone by Saturday but his sleep could be really messed up this week which isn’t ideal. Appreciate he fights in Europe a lot so I am sure he knows what he is doing but 2 weeks seems more sensible.

Not sure why everyone is going on about Brooks speed. He isn’t fast a WW so i don’t think at MW its going to be fight winner for him with the extra stone. He does put his punches together very well though and if he has gained some power then maybe and thats a big maybe he can make GGG think twice about ploughing in.

I think Brooks biggest asset though he is he seems to be really believe he can do it. In his interviews he comes across very confident and excited. If you don’t believe you can do it you won’t but if you believe you can then you have a tiny chance against GGG.

I think Brook might do a bit better than most people think but will get stopped by round 6 which is no embarrassment. If he can get it past 10 rounds or even points then I will have to say he's done amazingly well and should get a lot of credit for it.

Hope he does it but just can’t see it.

I think he has excellent timing and reflexes. Said a while back that GGG has tended to overreach with shots are let a few loose punches go but these tend to be again terrified and grossly overmatched fighters just waiting to be put out of their misery. If GGG gets over confident he may find himself getting countered by brook but given GGG says he's giving Kell a lot of respect, it remains to be seen how disciplined GG will be in there.

GGG is the favourite for a reason but I'd dearly love Brook to pull off what would probably be biggest upset in Boxing for years

I totally agree with you. That's why I said I like the way he puts his punches together as its really smooth and accurate. What I was trying to say is he doesn't have super fast hands compared to a number of other recent WW.

Like Brook and really hope he can do it. I'll def be buying it and fingers crossed he can suprise a few people. GGG is always respectful so hard to guage if he's genuine. Would be great if he's not and gets caught coming in and a flash knock down. I know I'm dreaming but the place would erupt. Will see though....

Brook is a lot faster than you're giving him credit for, he uses a modicum of movement and doesn't really throw combinations so it's not as exaggerated as say it is for Khan.

Maybe you're right but honestly can't say he ever looked that fast to me before. Was watching his open workout in Cov Gdn on SSN earlier and was thinking the same. Granted he doesn't throw as many punches in bundles as Khan so maybe that' why he looks slower to me. Just never noted Brook for hand speed, hopefully it's noticable on Saturday.

When this fight was made, I was in the 'what? Complete mismatch, only a fool would pay to see it'

Now a few days away I'm thinking 'complete mismatch, only a fool would pay to see it... But what if he pulls off the impossible and I miss it?'

I'm going to end up with the fools (I know my place), shaking my head with a resigned 'I told me so' when brook gets starched by the first meaningful punch!

melv500 wrote:Trying to think of a case for Brook but its really hard.

I was surprised GGG only came on Sunday giving him 6 days to get over jetlag. I should think it will have gone by Saturday but his sleep could be really messed up this week which isn’t ideal. Appreciate he fights in Europe a lot so I am sure he knows what he is doing but 2 weeks seems more sensible.

He trains at Bear mountain doesn't he ???......Probably thinks extra training on the peaks will be more productive than time in London...

Though flying to the UK is harder than flying to JFK...........Shorter days and all that..

He's surrounded by professionals so I guess they know what they're doing..

He trains at Big Bear in California so 7 hours time difference. I have to go to Hong Kong a couple of times a year which is 7 hours ahead so the same as GGG now. It wipes me out first few days, 6 days you've caught up but the sleep disruption would not do him any good. He even commented on it today after his open workout.

Like you say though I'm sure they know what they are doing and it affects everyone differently.

Never been to the West Coast..

The jet lag is a killer!

You'll be one stop....like me going to Logan...

Like I said going is much easier than coming back...

Only good thing about the trip over is the airport is only a stone's throw from the crossing..

The other thing to factor in re the travel is he will not be stuffed in cattle class like the rest of us, it will have been first class all the way, private lounges at the airport out and beds on board on the flight. It makes a difference and will almost certainly mitigate any effect the travel may have had.

To be honest though the more I think about this fight convinced Golovkin could land Saturday afternoon, jump in a taxi to the O2 and still win. I am struggling hard to think of another big fight where I have struggled so much to make a case for a fighter. I don't doubt Kell feels good at middle but it I struggle to believe that is going to lead to a significant increase in his punch power. It may increase his strength a bit and his stamina but don't think his issue here is either of those things. Also Brook has shown respectable power at welter but you never watch him and see him as a guy who could carry his power across two or three division. Am sure if he lands clean it will be enough to register with GGG but nothing near enough to take him out or even discourage him hugely one suspects.

The issue as I see it is Brook is not the most elusive of fighters and never has been particularly hard to hit. Porter landed plenty and others have throughout his career. Thus far he has shown a decent set of whiskers but even that has to be considered against the fact he has not fought any welters who would be considered huge punchers. There is nobody on his record who has freakish Hearns like welter power, hell he has not even faced a Trinidad level puncher. You have to suspect when the first punch he takes of a fully fledged middle is from one as heavy handed as Golovkin he is going to suffer one of the rudest awakenings imaginable.

As Tyson was fond of saying everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face and I think that is appropriate here. Brook will surely need to be way more circumspect that he normally is but we have to realistic, fighters don't become Pernell Whitaker overnight. Brook tends to stay in the pocket and sway from punches, against a fighter as good at closing space and picking clever shots as Golovkin he will surely take too much punishment to still be there at the final bell.

I do find it a rather pointless fight, have no doubt in my mind that Brook is good enough to comfortably beat Thurman, Garcia, Spence Jnr and the Charlo's at 154lbs.

Hearn hasn't struggled to work with Al Haymon in the past so fail to see why a fight couldn't be made with any of them, something tells me that somebody isn't quite as confident in Brooks ability as is made out so the build up talk is a bit false for me.

Golovkin within 4.

To be fair to Hearn and Sky they do a terrific job of marketing the thing. The number of polls on twitter that have this close and the number predicting a Brook win is genuinely staggering. Easy to dismiss them as idiots but am sure neither party cares, their £16.95 spends just as well as anybody else's.

Not sure flying first class mitigates any effect of jet lag. It's still a 7 hour time difference if you have a comfortable flight or not. I've been upgraded a couple of times and it's been amazing but the jet lag is still there either way.

Will you stream it on sat Rowley or really not fussed at all?

I'll pay for it. Have some friends coming round. Hate watching streams. Didn't spend stupid money on a decent TV and surround sound to watch some god awful stream.

Rowley wrote:You have to suspect when the first punch he takes of a fully fledged middle is from one as heavy handed as Golovkin he is going to suffer one of the rudest awakenings imaginable.

As Tyson was fond of saying everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face and I think that is appropriate here.  

i think that sums it up rowley - brook may be full of confidence, but that first left hook to the body may empty it pretty quickly.

Rowley wrote:I'll pay for it. Have some friends coming round and will charge them accordingly. Hate watching streams. Didn't spend stupid money on a decent TV and surround sound to watch some god awful stream.

clarified that for you Jeff

Rowley wrote:I'll pay for it. Have some friends coming round. Hate watching streams. Didn't spend stupid money on a decent TV and surround sound to watch some god awful stream.

He likes his boxing like he likes his women.

superflyweight wrote:

Rowley wrote:I'll pay for it. Have some friends coming round. Hate watching streams. Didn't spend stupid money on a decent TV and surround sound to watch some god awful stream.

He likes his boxing like he likes his women.  

Yorkshiremen like to get bang for their buck

Watched behind the ropes and in the thirty seconds or so sparring with Smith that I guess was there to showcase Brook...He got caught a plenty and definitely was second best....It was a Brook behind the ropes not a Smith one !!.

Not that you can take too much away from sparring.......But it didn't fill you with confidence and I do want Kell to win..

Bottom line really...Is that he isn't a good enough fighter on the back foot to beat a guy as good as GGG..

He has to take ring center and try to push him back........Can't see him doing that...

He gets caught and goes or he gets a drawn out slap..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Watched behind the ropes and in the thirty seconds or so sparring with Smith that I guess was there to showcase Brook...He got caught a plenty and definitely was second best....It was a Brook behind the ropes not a Smith one !!.

Not that you can take too much away from sparring.......But it didn't fill you with confidence and I do want Kell to win..

Bottom line really...Is that he isn't a good enough fighter on the back foot to beat a guy as good as GGG..

He has to take ring center and try to push him back........Can't see him doing that...

He gets caught and goes or he gets a drawn out slap..

Yep, hard to see anything else happen.

Absurdist thing is that, being British (a bit like the England football team), Brook's odds even at 5-1 seem absurdly short.

Then again, Fury was 4-1.....

Brook is as big an underdog as Khan was against Canelo.

Least Khan had the speed and range to keep it at distance.

I don't think Brook will embarrass himself, but he is overmatched. I can't see it going past the 7th.

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

kingraf wrote:I do think Truss is onto something with the amount of notice Brook is taking the fight on. I was watching both Diaz-McGregor fights, and you could see how much better Connor paced himself the second time at the new weight. In boxing terms Kell is a notch below Connor, and GGG is a few notches above Diaz, so it does to me raise a bit of an immediate concern

Seriously? Kell's all round boxing ability (offence and defence) is way ahead of McGregor's. I like Conor but there's no way he's above Kell

What he means is Conor is a better mma fighter, than Kell is a boxer. Also that Diaz isn't as good in his sport, as GGG is at his. I think!

Si!!

kingraf wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

kingraf wrote:I do think Truss is onto something with the amount of notice Brook is taking the fight on. I was watching both Diaz-McGregor fights, and you could see how much better Connor paced himself the second time at the new weight. In boxing terms Kell is a notch below Connor, and GGG is a few notches above Diaz, so it does to me raise a bit of an immediate concern

Seriously? Kell's all round boxing ability (offence and defence) is way ahead of McGregor's. I like Conor but there's no way he's above Kell

What he means is Conor is a better mma fighter, than Kell is a boxer. Also that Diaz isn't as good in his sport, as GGG is at his. I think!

Si!!

??

Wish someone would enquire why if Kell is such a monster at 160 he has been fighting on empty at 147 all these years??..

After all average champions like Barker..Sturm...Lee and Geale should have been easy pickings..

Truss you bodybuild. You know how easy it can be to move up in weight.

Brook can weigh what he wants. He will find out on Saturday, that he has no business mixing it with the world's most dangerous 160 fighter.

I have been sore on Khan, but besides Porter! Who the f..k has Brook really thought?

Least Amir had some good names on his record.

It's just when you hear crap like "disregard the weight" from people that should know better..Hearn in fairness is selling the fight...

A big fight week and no Alex "The huck" Huckerby..on here.

Can't have that..

Hearn knows the craic. He is just hoping/praying that GGG doesn't show up.

Can't understand why Brook would take this fight. Khan fought Canelo, but Canelo is the biggest name in boxing, besides Manny and Floyd.

Brook done well beating Porter, but he did a lot of clinching and other stuff. He will not be able to do that against GGG.

He will do ok for the first 2 or 3 rounds, then GGG will get into his rhythm and break him down.

I think GGG will win by the 7th round. If Brook is durable and gets off with excessive clinching, he might be lucky to see the final bell. I doubt it though.

Brook looked really fast in the open work out, made me a bit more excited for this fight

Still think GGG's style is a terrible one for Brook and I think GGG stops him mid rounds

Good card as well

You would think Brook was SRL.

GGG would most likely murder Manny and Floyd, never mind Brook.

I'm not a bit excited. I won't be ordering!

Adam, you are a miserable f*cker! You may just see history being made or you may see a very decent fighter get beaten by a better one. Me? I like both guys and don't want either to lose but I suppose a draw is too much to ask for.

DAVE667 wrote:Adam, you are a miserable f*cker! You may just see history being made or you may see a very decent fighter get beaten by a better one. Me? I like both guys and don't want either to lose but I suppose a draw is too much to ask for.

I agree with the first part of your statement.

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Adam, you are a miserable f*cker! You may just see history being made or you may see a very decent fighter get beaten by a better one. Me? I like both guys and don't want either to lose but I suppose a draw is too much to ask for.

I agree with the first part of your statement.

It would be churlish, nay c*ntish, of you to disagree!

DAVE667 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Adam, you are a miserable f*cker! You may just see history being made or you may see a very decent fighter get beaten by a better one. Me? I like both guys and don't want either to lose but I suppose a draw is too much to ask for.

I agree with the first part of your statement.

It would be churlish, nay c*ntish, of you to disagree!

I have no problem with Brook, but I hate the thought of this fight being ppv. I hope I'm wrong, but GGG will win easy.

I think Kell Brook thinks Kell Brook can win.  If he does win it will be his fairy tale come true.  But I just wonder how long it will take from the sound of the bell to start the fight, for reality to dawn on Kell Brook, that he has bitten off far more than he can chew.

It is not clear what Golovkin's motivation is for taking this non-title fight.  It can only be for the money and to showcase himself in London.  If he knocks Kell Brook out in the first round he will probably be criticised for taking the fight.  So I guess the perfect fight for him is to toy with Brook for a few rounds before stopping him.  He then might say afterwards he respects Brook far more than some heavier fighters (Alvarez) for having the balls to fight him - he then might use the publicity to challenge Alvarez openly to man up and fight him next.

Slightly off topic the latest from Hoya who should be concentrating on his fight with Smith but would and should Golovkin accept a flat fee?:

http://www.boxingscene.com/de-la-hoya-flat-fee-golovkin-face-canelo-no-money-split--108479

So they've done exactly what Golovkin said and lowballed him

Really hoping Smith does a number. Two cracking fights to look forward to

You guys have to remember Canelo is the draw....

Bruno (champ) $6 million v Tyson (challenger) $30 million............For their second fight...

GGG v Lemieux did 150,000 buys............Canelo v Khan 600,000..........

Yeah but this fight could do well over 2 million and that's down to the buzz surrounding GGG.

20-25million is what I'm guessing as the flat fee, good but not nearly enough considering Canelo's ratings may continue to plummet the longer he's seen to duck Golovkin fans already turning away from Canelo on social media even Mexicans