Klitschko vs Fury in doubt

by Pedro147 Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:08 am

https://twitter.com/Klitschko/status/765813044031135744/video/1

The above video shows Wlad telling us that he's instructed his legal team to take action against Fury as he's claiming that Fury and his team are trying the change the terms of the contract.

Anybody know what it could be about?

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:12 am

If the fight doesn't go ahead then it will have been a year since Fury was champion.. Enough is enough.

Strip him of all his belts...

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:31 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If the fight doesn't go ahead then it will have been a year since Fury was champion.. Enough is enough.

Strip him of all his belts...

You can't strip him of his status - regardless of whether you take away his ABC belts. They stripped Rigondeaux because they could make more money from Quigg and Frampton. Didn't mean a thing. Everyone (Quigg and Frampton included) knew Rigo was the champ.

Jack Dempsey didn't fight for two years between Carpentier and Gibbons - he wasn't stripped.

It will be interesting to see what these terms are (it will come out in the wash if the Furys are involved).

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:38 am

Sorry mate I never bought Michael Spinks who avoided Tyson in the HBO contest being champion while Mike unified all the belts as heavy champion..

I won't buy Fury either..

Lineal crap..

Defend the titles or get stripped.

by AdamT Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:40 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Sorry mate I never bought Michael Spinks who avoided Tyson in the HBO contest being champion while Mike unified all the belts as heavy champion..

I won't buy Fury either..

Lineal crap..

Defend the titles or get stripped.

Agreed. I know you don't follow mma, but your man McGregor is doing the same with his title. He won it July last year and he still hasn't defended it.

It makes a mockery of the sport.

by Atila Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:42 am

hazharrison wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If the fight doesn't go ahead then it will have been a year since Fury was champion.. Enough is enough.

Strip him of all his belts...

You can't strip him of his status - regardless of whether you take away his ABC belts. They stripped Rigondeaux because they could make more money from Quigg and Frampton. Didn't mean a thing. Everyone (Quigg and Frampton included) knew Rigo was the champ.

Jack Dempsey didn't fight for two years between Carpentier and Gibbons - he wasn't stripped.

It will be interesting to see what these terms are (it will come out in the wash if the Furys are involved).

You're going back a bit there Haz. Times have changed. Very Happy

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:42 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Sorry mate I never bought Michael Spinks who avoided Tyson in the HBO contest being champion while Mike unified all the belts as heavy champion..

I won't buy Fury either..

Lineal crap..

Defend the titles or get stripped.

I agree it's frustrating but Fury is the heavyweight champ until he's beaten. Unless he does pop for a PED ban - if he gets nailed on that front then yeah, strip him and ban him.

We don't know what Klitschko's issue is here - it could be anything from size of ring or glove make to something altogether more serious like drug testing (I'd love to see WK pass a VADA test). Until the details come out, we can't rush to judgement.

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:43 am

Atila wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If the fight doesn't go ahead then it will have been a year since Fury was champion.. Enough is enough.

Strip him of all his belts...

You can't strip him of his status - regardless of whether you take away his ABC belts. They stripped Rigondeaux because they could make more money from Quigg and Frampton. Didn't mean a thing. Everyone (Quigg and Frampton included) knew Rigo was the champ.

Jack Dempsey didn't fight for two years between Carpentier and Gibbons - he wasn't stripped.

It will be interesting to see what these terms are (it will come out in the wash if the Furys are involved).
You're going back a bit there Haz. Times have changed.

Dempsey was the first one that sprung to mind without trawling through BoxRec!

by AdamT Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:45 am

Because Haz has already sort of opened the can of worms, I would also love to see the 40 year old Ivan Drago clone pass proper testing.

UFC isn't perfect, but their testing has improved and I bet some boxers would be pi$$ing hot over there, especially a couple of heavyweight Adonis's.

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:49 am

Klitschko has had some long breaks between championship defences (9 months between Chagaev and Chambers, 10 months between Peter and Haye).

The Patterson vs Johansson fights were a year apart.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:05 am

Holmes ducked Page took the IBF and remained true champion..

Spinks ducked Tyson and stayed true champion..

History doesn't always get it right...

Defend or get stripped..

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:19 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Holmes ducked Page took the IBF and remained true champion..

Spinks ducked Tyson and stayed true champion..

History doesn't always get it right...

Defend or get stripped..

And you'd be happy with the belts being shared between the likes of Browne, Oquendo and Haye? The division only recently took an upswing thanks to Fury's win.

Boente has just been interviewed by BN - claims the Fury's have altered financial aspects of the contract (no idea how that would even happen).

I'm slightly suspicious that Fury's hearing with UKAD is Nov 4 and a postponement would take them past that date. Doesn't look like the fight happens on Oct 29th.

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:22 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Holmes ducked Page took the IBF and remained true champion..

Spinks ducked Tyson and stayed true champion..

History doesn't always get it right...

Defend or get stripped..

And you'd rather Holmes had been stripped and Page was handed the belt?

by TopHat24/7 Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:24 am

Mayweather took a year to defend his WBC title after winning it versus Guerrero.

How long was Ward allowed to hold onto his titles without defending them.....??

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:29 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:Mayweather took a year to defend his WBC title after winning it versus Guerrero.

How long was Ward allowed to hold onto his titles without defending them.....??

by AdamT Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:30 am

Mayweather can do what he wants Cool

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:30 am

Holmes should have fought Page...His mandatory..

Look it's not so long ago fielders were allowed to field in direct view of the batter's gaze and dance up and down to put the batter off in Baseball....

Things change for the better and the fact this lineal crap is being binned these days shows that..

Mayweather and Ward should have been stripped too...

Respect the past but learn from it. .

Fight or get stripped..

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:38 am

hazharrison wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Mayweather took a year to defend his WBC title after winning it versus Guerrero.

How long was Ward allowed to hold onto his titles without defending them.....??

No debate necessary

by Pedro147 Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:40 am

Bernd Boente, claims team Fury have tried to alter the fight contracts.

“They want to change details in the contract – obviously we cannot discuss that publicly – but, as you know, we’ve already done press conferences in Manchester, in Cologne,” he told Boxing News.

“Now team Fury wants to change many parts of the contract, important parts, financial conditions etc, etc. and now I think we have to make sure that we implement our rights and so we have to go to court in Germany because the contract is under German jurisdiction. We have enforced our rights, and that is what we will do now.”

Aside from his ankle injury, which now looks to be almost fully healed, Fury has also had to deal with allegations of doping from UK-Anti Doping (UKAD), who earlier this year charged Fury with having a banned substance in his system. The initial suspension they put on him, and his cousin Hughie, has been lifted pending a hearing on November 4. Team Fury categorically deny the allegations.

Boente noted that the contractual issues can still be resolved out of the courtroom, though doubts that will happen and remains unsure if the mooted October timeline for the rematch is still feasible.

“There were no discussions beforehand – I don’t know what it really is,” he continued.

“We also want to implement VADA [Voluntary Anti-Doping Association] random testing for the fight, blood and urine [testing]. We want to implement that in the contract and I think we can absolutely ask for that, it’s for both fighters so it’s fair.

“I don’t know [if the fight will happen in October], it depends on the ruling and maybe ongoing discussions with team Fury because our door is always open, but I doubt it because these are absolutely impossible demands they have. For us it’s a breach of contract and now we have to take action.”

This latest development is yet another hurdle that needs to be cleared before the rematch – which was written into the contracts of their first fight – can happen.

Up to this point, team Fury have seemed hellbent on getting the fight made and securing Tyson’s status as the division’s kingpin, however if these disputes cannot be sorted out, the fight may not happen at all.

“I don’t know if it will happen, I have no idea. I spoke to Wladimir and I have never seen a champion being inactive for so long, especially after just winning the title. He would make a lot of money from this fight, I have no idea what’s going on.

“In any case, our door is open but at this moment I think there is no further possibility of a discussion so the next step is to go to court.”

Boxing News has reached out to team Fury for comment but has not yet had a response.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:46 am

Remember there were plenty of calls for Douglas to be stripped after Tyson for taking his time..

Maybe Fury's bottle has gone....After all he only won 7-5 against a guy who threw 14 shots a round.

If he doesn't defend this year strip him you can't keep the belts indefinitely.

by TopHat24/7 Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:08 pm

Pedro147 wrote:Bernd Boente, claims team Fury have tried to alter the fight contracts.

“They want to change details in the contract – obviously we cannot discuss that publicly – but, as you know, we’ve already done press conferences in Manchester, in Cologne,” he told Boxing News.

Is that the presser K didn't even turn up to??

VADA testing could be funny....

by Rowley Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:24 pm

As someone who has tickets for the fight I have zero confidence in the fight going ahead on 29th October. Boxing treats its fans with absolute contempt. Firstly the rescheduled date was announced without the 29th being officially agreed with both parties and now this. I am lucky I ensured I booked a hotel where I could get a full cancellation so the only financial loss is a tenner for the surcharge fee on that. Others will not be so fortunate, some will lose hotel bookings, will have booked time off work, booked trains and so on.

Even allowing for that I am not a wealthy man by any stretch. To afford to go here and have half way decent tickets I have sacrificed other things, gigs, other fights, football matches, as has my wife. Fighters and promoters might think this BS soap opera will they won't they drivel is an amusing diversion, in lieu of actual fighting, when it costs fans money and the chances to do other things it very much isn't.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:31 pm

Yes the fans are often the forgotten victims in these episodes...

by Guest Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:35 pm

Rowley wrote:As someone who has tickets for the fight I have zero confidence in the fight going ahead on 29th October. Boxing treats its fans with absolute contempt. Firstly the rescheduled date was announced without the 29th being officially agreed with both parties and now this. I am lucky I ensured I booked a hotel where I could get a full cancellation so the only financial loss is a tenner for the surcharge fee on that. Others will not be so fortunate, some will lose hotel bookings, will have booked time off work, booked trains and so on.

Even allowing for that I am not a wealthy man by any stretch. To afford to go here and have half way decent tickets I have sacrificed other things, gigs, other fights, football matches, as has my wife. Fighters and promoters might think this BS soap opera will they won't they drivel is an amusing diversion, in lieu of actual fighting, when it costs fans money and the chances to do other things it very much isn't.

You own a purely decorative candle, surely this makes you one of the richest, certainly most profligate, men in the North of England

by Rowley Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:41 pm

Richest man in the north of England, even if true my original statement remains accurate.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:45 pm

Be interested to know what kind of time line the Fury fans think he should have to defend..

by Guest Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:46 pm

Rowley wrote:Richest man in the north of England, even if true my original statement remains accurate.

No, "by any stretch" means just that. I don't have any decorative candles, posh git!

by Guest Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:46 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Be interested to know what kind of time line the Fury fans think he should have to defend..

Anytime around 2020 if he wants to be hasty and rush into these things without thinking them through properly

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:10 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Be interested to know what kind of time line the Fury fans think he should have to defend..

I think this has something to do with the UKAD hearing on Nov 4th. Could be wrong but his suspension was obviously the reason the fight was postponed initially. If he's banned at that hearing, then it's game over. If not, and Klitschko doesn't want to re-arrange, then Fury will still be the champion (presuming he then moves on to a Joshua fight - or just another fight at all). If he doesn't plan to fight in the near future, then I guess he forfeits the championship.

You can strip him of his belts and hand them round to the likes of Haye and Oquendo but he's still the top dog until someone knocks him off.

by TopHat24/7 Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:14 pm

Or someone else beats Klitty, IMO, proving that he wasn't so insurmmountable (sp?).

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:31 pm

I'm working on this:

Louis
Charles
Walcott
Marciano
Patterson
Johansson
Patterson
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Ali
L Spinks
Ali
Holmes
M Spinks
Tyson
Douglas
Holyfield
Bowe
Holyfield
Moorer
Foreman
Briggs
Lewis
Rahman
Lewis
W Klitschko
Fury

Doesn't half make life easier.

by TopHat24/7 Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:53 pm

Yes, your stance is well known.

When did Wlad beat Lewis btw?

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:58 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Yes, your stance is well known.

When did Wlad beat Lewis btw?

Wlad beat Povetkin in 2013 when they were generally regarded as the best two heavyweights in the world.

Obviously lineages can be broken (when Marciano retired etc.) but new ones can be determined if the best two at the weight square off (doesn't happen much today).

by AdamT Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:05 pm

Haz this is not aimed at you, just a general thought.

F**k linear champions too!

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:07 pm

AdamT wrote:Haz this is not aimed at you, just a general thought.

F**k linear champions too!

Fair enough! What, just disregard championships/titles full stop?

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:09 pm

The lineal championship started with Louis ???

You're right to F**k it Adam........You get Tyson ducking types like Spinks relinquishing their belt and still being called "real champion"...

Farcical..

by TopHat24/7 Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:12 pm

hazharrison wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Yes, your stance is well known.

When did Wlad beat Lewis btw?

Wlad beat Povetkin in 2013 when they were generally regarded as the best two heavyweights in the world.

Obviously lineages can be broken (when Marciano retired etc.) but new ones can be determined if the best two at the weight square off (doesn't happen much today).

Except by 'generally regarded' you are moving away from your simplistic lineal approach and therefore exposing its frailty.

by Guest Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:13 pm

Generally regarded...generally retarded

by AdamT Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:15 pm

Is GGG lineal??

Though everyone knows he is the best.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:18 pm

AdamT wrote:Is GGG lineal??

Though everyone knows he is the best.

Maybe he is this week......

But he's number 1 by a mile.....

Don't think the great Azumah Nelson was ever a champion according to the lineal crap..

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:18 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The lineal championship started with Louis ???

You're right to F**k it Adam........You get Tyson ducking types like Spinks relinquishing their belt and still being called "real champion"...

Farcical..

It's a work in progress!

The Spinks reign did become farcical but eventually he threw down with Tyson. It really fell apart with the Foreman-Briggs-Lewis segment. Few believed Foreman was the best big man around. Fewer still thought Briggs deserved a decision over him. By the time Lewis bounced him around, no-one was even talking about the man who beat the man any longer (most public opinion had fallen behind Holyfield after he slew Tyson).

It's not perfect but it's the best method (in my book). That list, generally, comprises the best big men of their time (with the odd upset in there). Look at all of the nonsense it cuts out.

Three-time champion: Ali
Two-time champions: Patterson, Holyfield, Foreman and Lewis.

I can't be doing with David Haye, John Ruiz, Valuev and the like calling themselves champions. It used to mean something that. And I can't be bothered trying to follow the machinations of the WBC/WBA/WWF/UNICEF - I just want to know who the top man is at each weight.

by AdamT Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:20 pm

Lineal has it's advantages and disadvantages. I do agree, that I will never regard Mr Haye as Heavyweight champion, among others.

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:26 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Yes, your stance is well known.

When did Wlad beat Lewis btw?

Wlad beat Povetkin in 2013 when they were generally regarded as the best two heavyweights in the world.

Obviously lineages can be broken (when Marciano retired etc.) but new ones can be determined if the best two at the weight square off (doesn't happen much today).

Except by 'generally regarded' you are moving away from your simplistic lineal approach and therefore exposing its frailty.

Well not all rankings agree. You could go with the IBF or WBC but if you've ever looked at those recently, they're completely nonsensical.

Ring Mag (not perfect) and TBRB (better) both had Wlad and Povetkin as the top two heavyweights (as did most rational observers).

But yeah, lineal stuff is frail because the fighters don't even know they've been awarded that status!

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:29 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Is GGG lineal??

Though everyone knows he is the best.

Maybe he is this week......

But he's number 1 by a mile.....

Don't think the great Azumah Nelson was ever a champion according to the lineal crap..

Golovkin needs to beat Alvarez.

I think Nelson probably was at super feather c1996.

by TopHat24/7 Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:32 pm

hazharrison wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Yes, your stance is well known.

When did Wlad beat Lewis btw?

Wlad beat Povetkin in 2013 when they were generally regarded as the best two heavyweights in the world.

Obviously lineages can be broken (when Marciano retired etc.) but new ones can be determined if the best two at the weight square off (doesn't happen much today).

Except by 'generally regarded' you are moving away from your simplistic lineal approach and therefore exposing its frailty.

Well not all rankings agree. You could go with the IBF or WBC but if you've ever looked at those recently, they're completely nonsensical.

Ring Mag (not perfect) and TBRB (better) both had Wlad and Povetkin as the top two heavyweights (as did most rational observers).

But yeah, lineal stuff is frail because the fighters don't even know they've been awarded that status!

I like TBRB but their constant over-rating of Tim Bradders undermines them.

by TopHat24/7 Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:34 pm

hazharrison wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Is GGG lineal??

Though everyone knows he is the best.

Maybe he is this week......

But he's number 1 by a mile.....

Don't think the great Azumah Nelson was ever a champion according to the lineal crap..

Golovkin needs to beat Alvarez.

I think Nelson probably was at super feather c1996.

Why does Golovkin need to beat someone who's never fought at middleweight??

His is the best case for exposing the bullcrap of 'lineal'.

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:37 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Yes, your stance is well known.

When did Wlad beat Lewis btw?

Wlad beat Povetkin in 2013 when they were generally regarded as the best two heavyweights in the world.

Obviously lineages can be broken (when Marciano retired etc.) but new ones can be determined if the best two at the weight square off (doesn't happen much today).

Except by 'generally regarded' you are moving away from your simplistic lineal approach and therefore exposing its frailty.

Well not all rankings agree. You could go with the IBF or WBC but if you've ever looked at those recently, they're completely nonsensical.

Ring Mag (not perfect) and TBRB (better) both had Wlad and Povetkin as the top two heavyweights (as did most rational observers).

But yeah, lineal stuff is frail because the fighters don't even know they've been awarded that status!

I like TBRB but their constant over-rating of Tim Bradders undermines them.

Is that P4P? Yeah, some odd choices there (Frampton over Rigo?).

Good response here on Golovkin-Canelo:

"Canelo is not “ranked over” GGG per se at middleweight; he is the true champion in the division. You’d be hard-pressed to find a member who wouldn’t agree that GGG is the best middleweight in the world at this time. Canelo’s status as the middleweight champion, however, is the direct, linear result of this: Canelo > Cotto > Martinez > Pavlik > Taylor > Hopkins. (See the Successions tab for details.)

As stated in the feedback, we don’t strip champions because of two good reasons: First, we don’t pretend to have the power to do so. Boxing has no centralized authority and this fact requires us to act with great care. We are here to provide fans and fighters with clarity –that is our first purpose. Second, stripping champions has a long and ignoble history. The practice is presumptuous for those of us in boxing who never battled to defeat a champion and to do so has tended to make a mess of the divisional championships. (There are those in boxing, like the sanctioning bodies, who have vested interests in the mess that is the status quo, but we aren’t one of them.) What we do is take a good, hard look at whether a champion has, by his statements and actions, “abdicated” the throne. In Canelo’s case, he turned in a WBS belt for political reasons, not as a sign that he has abdicated. His next fight is at Jr. middle, correct, but nothing precludes a champion in one division from competing in another.

We have been and will continue to contact Golden Boy for a definitive statement. They have proven reluctant because they are under the mistaken impression that it is in Canelo’s best interest to continue his claim despite ducking Golovkin. I’d argue all day that they can take the heat off Canelo if they not only state that Canelo is a jr. middleweight and not a true middleweight and then abdicate the middleweight throne. No one could reasonably damn Canelo and GBP for an eventual catchweight fight with GGG if that happens. As it is, their position is self-serving, disingenuous, and disastrous for Canelo’s reputation –especially among Mexicans."

by hazharrison Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:44 pm

There are some top notch boxing dudes I have a lot of respect for who will tell you imaginary rankings are pure baloney and I can see that.

I like them for the sake of clarity and - generally - the lineal thing determins the top dogs (disregarding the ABC stuff).

One day. One day we'll return to one set of rankings with one champion.

Probably the day after I snuff it.

by BoxingFan88 Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:32 pm

Not another diva in boxing :-/

Just fight and move on

You have the beating of wlad he barely landed a shot last time

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:26 am

hazharrison wrote:There are some top notch boxing dudes I have a lot of respect for who will tell you imaginary rankings are pure baloney and I can see that.

They will be pleased.. Rolling Eyes

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