Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread XIII - Camp Crystal Meth

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

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Edinburgh & Glasgow Warriors

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Guinness Pro12

Edinburgh - Fixtures & Results   (click to show/hide):

Youtube playlist of all of Edinburgh's Pro12 action here.

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Youtube playlist of all of Glasgow's Pro12 action here.

Europe

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1872 Cup

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Edinburgh                  Glasgow Warriors
 

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The season has commenced

[George Carlin]

Never will a post have been received with less enthusiasm, but who fancies doing an Edinburgh match thread for Friday....?

https://www.606v2.com/t63948-edinburgh-v-scarlets-9-september

Let's see if anyone is able to pick up on my subtle subliminal suggestion as to which side is most likely to win.

[RDW]

Is the Edinburgh highlight each year the 1872 game?

And just think, it is only in recent times that we managed to win that again! Better than nothing though....

[EWT Spoons]

Is it me or does this seem overly optimistic/positive, especially the bit in bold.

‘The Embra Express’ looks back on Edinburgh Rugby’s disappointing start to the Guinness PRO12 season in Cardiff:

After performances like these, it always pays to take the time to breathe and maybe have a lie down in a darkened room for a while.

Otherwise, the temptation on many tifosi is to go into full-on ‘Sack The Board’ mega-rage mode.

One of the great handicaps afflicting Edinburgh Rugby over the years has been a lack of consistency on and off the park. A succession of very able CEOs have come and gone, never being around long enough to deliver a vision.

Equally, while the foundations for Gregor Townsend’s rise at Glasgow were set by years of patient grafting by Sean Lineen and Shade Munro, not all of which was very popular at the time, the Gunners have worked their way through a bewildering number of head coaches.

It takes time to build a successful club. So it’s a mite early in the season for folk to be calling for an end to the Solomons’ regime. There has been progress in the pack and the defence during his time.  Now we look for a cutting edge in attack.

Last Saturday was not a great start to the season and the ‘Embramen’ may come to rue giving up five points to the Blues. They seemed to lack leadership when Nasi Manu went off injured and wanted for discipline at key times.

But I saw some signs of hope in the performance. While the pack had a torrid time of it, in an uncharacteristically subdued performance, I saw things being tried in the backs that I haven’t seen a great deal of during the South African guru’s reign.

None of them actually worked, granted. Yet that seemed to be partly down to unfamiliarity between a greatly reconstructed back division and partly a more general lack of match sharpness.

The ploy of a short pop pass from Duncan Weir to a runner coming at pace on a different angle, for example, looked hopeful. But too often the receiver mistimed the run. Equally, the Gunners had a tendency to ruin a decent piece of play with an unforced error, which either coughed up ball, or field position, or both.

Some ambition, but poor execution.  The Blues fed off these errors for a well-deserved win.

This Friday’s opponents, the Scarlets, also had a poor start. They suffered a non-bonus 23-13 loss at home to Munster. While the Irishmen have a new coach, they are still rebuilding and one would have expected a top four contender to prevail over them at home.

Particularly given that Edinburgh last year lost one fixture to Llanelli as a result of an officiating call that raised a few eyebrows, the Gunners should see the visit of the Welshmen as an opportunity to get the show back on the road.

Their chances have been boosted by Scarlets’ injuries in the forwards, notably Samson Lee and Rob Evans, while sloppy defence was also a factor in the West Walians’ defeat.

Taken together, that suggests that they should secure dominance up front, setting up a better attacking platform than they had at the Arms Park.

If Weir can be given space to boss the game, if things start coming together further out, and if the weakness in the back three under the high ball can be addressed, Edinburgh should get off the mark, possibly in a low scoring game.

[RDW]

It takes time to build a successful club. So it’s a mite early in the season for folk to be calling for an end to the Solomons’ regime.

is 3 years not long enough?

They seemed to lack leadership when Nasi Manu went off injured and wanted for discipline at key times.

Agreed

I saw things being tried in the backs that I haven’t seen a great deal of during the South African guru’s reign.

That could be taken as a good thing or a bad thing - in terms of the Blues game it was very much a bad thing!

None of them actually worked, granted.

Not for the first time

The ploy of a short pop pass from Duncan Weir to a runner coming at pace on a different angle, for example

That is literally the most basic play in the book, and we still messed it up.  Also, unless you have several options (like Glasgow did) they will just target the carrier knowing that he's getting the ball, and he won't get anywhere. It happened with Denton at Edinburgh and often happens when Strauss is playing for Glasgow.

articularly given that Edinburgh last year lost one fixture to Llanelli as a result of an officiating call that raised a few eyebrows

To put it mildly.

possibly in a low scoring game.

Now that is a guarantee, for us at least!

[funnyExiledScot]

There are no excuses. Simple.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

The ploy of a short pop pass from Duncan Weir to a runner coming at pace on a different angle, for example, looked hopeful. But too often the receiver mistimed the run.

RDW beat me to it, but sweet Jesus if this is what we can look forward to in terms of Solomons adding to our attacking game this season then I really despair! That's lesson 1 in playing in the backline!

If Weir can be given space to boss the game, if things start coming together further out, and if the weakness in the back three under the high ball can be addressed, Edinburgh should get off the mark, possibly in a low scoring game.

Does that much space actually exist on a rugby field?

[funnyExiledScot]

I wonder whether Tovey won't side line Weir once he's fit.

[GLove39]

Sure you've all seen this, but look who's been spotted posing in Lions gear outside FES' house

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

It is quite painful watching Edinburgh play. So hot and cold. I have hope for them this season as I think they have a great squad, although I'm eagerly awaiting news of Solly's replacement. I hope somebody takes the reigns like Andy Robinson did (Edinburgh managed to achieve runner-up under his tenure with a fairly average squad).

Glasgow on the other hand are a real pleasure to watch.


Also, I've pimped the Fixtures and Results section in the OP. I added links pointing to the ultimate rugby match pages for extra info, highlights, stats etc

[RDW]

Something that we seemed to miss on here - good news

Scotland Head Coach Vern Cotter today confirmed defensive contact consultant Richie Gray will return to his back room staff for the 2016 Autumn Tests and 2017 RBS 6 Nations.

Gray was part of last season’s 6 Nations and Summer Test preparations following a three-season spell as South Africa’s Specialist Breakdown Coach – culminating in their bronze medal finish at Rugby World Cup 2015 – as well as the ‘Blitzbokke’ 7s side.

Gray has again been given a specific defensive brief and will work alongside Defence Coach Matt Taylor in the build-up to the two competitive campaigns

The bit in bold is interesting though - I thought he was essentially a contact/rucking consultant?

[funnyExiledScot]

Sure you've all seen this, but look who's been spotted posing in Lions gear outside FES' house

I can't believe he isn't being mentioned for the role. I'm sure Sir Clive Woodward would pick him, just so the title of "Worst Ever Lions Coach" can be passed on.

[funnyExiledScot]

Something that we seemed to miss on here - good news

Scotland Head Coach Vern Cotter today confirmed defensive contact consultant Richie Gray will return to his back room staff for the 2016 Autumn Tests and 2017 RBS 6 Nations.

Gray was part of last season’s 6 Nations and Summer Test preparations following a three-season spell as South Africa’s Specialist Breakdown Coach – culminating in their bronze medal finish at Rugby World Cup 2015 – as well as the ‘Blitzbokke’ 7s side.

Gray has again been given a specific defensive brief and will work alongside Defence Coach Matt Taylor in the build-up to the two competitive campaigns

The bit in bold is interesting though - I thought he was essentially a contact/rucking consultant?

Good news. Very experienced coach and highly rated in South Africa. Our breakdown skills have been a shambles for years, so plenty for him to work on.

[George Carlin]

I think that this is a safe place to post this question - does anyone really believe that the Lions coach won't be Gatland?

If not, do we think that we'll get duffed up the bum in terms of being ignored for squad selection again this time round?

I can't decide where I am with this. I love the Lions and always will but I watched the last test series stone cold and rather unemotive with the lack of Scots interest. Perhaps that makes me a bad sport, I don't know but if we'd been edged out by the Aussies, I would have struggled to give a poop as much as I usually do.

Part of me also thinks that taking part in a murderously planned tour which cries out with the likelihood that half of our test players will be carrying major knocks before the first test even starts is an experience to be avoided. I remember 2005 well - let's not soft soap this, it was a massacre.

[RDW]

I'm the same as you - the Lions tours are my favourite event in rugby but the last one didn't enthuse as much as previous ones, particularly 2009.  And I don't think it was due to a lack of Scots involvement as we had bugger all in 2009 too and I was absolutely enthralled by that tour and completely gutted when we lost.

Until Scotland actually does something on the international stage we're always going to be screwed over when it comes to selection, and you could argue rightly so.

The absolute worst thing in the last tour from a Scotland PoV was Ryan Gran't treatment in the 2nd test - Vunipola was clearly completely exhausted and was struggling - everyone could see it - yet Ryan Grant remained firmly on the bench.  Gatland basically said he'd rather Vunipola running on fumes than trust Ryan Grant.  No wonder his confidence was shot on his return!

You could ask why Tim Visser and Matt Scott on absolute red hot form were overlooked as injury replacements for Wade, Twelvetrees, Barrit and Shane feckin Williams (FFS) but they were just looking for cannon fodder for that one midweek game, and they went for players they knew.

So unless we have our best over 6N performance I can't see us getting more than 4 or 5 player- I just hope that those that really are on form won't be overlooked by home favourites from the coaches that aren't.  Rumours are Big Vern will be involved so that may help our case.

I'm going to make a guess at WP Nel, Jonny Gray, John Hardie and Stuart Hogg, with Hogg making the bench for the Tests.  We have many players that will be there or there abouts but I can't see us gettting more than 4 or 5.

[Tattie Scones RRN]

I think that this is a safe place to post this question - does anyone really believe that the Lions coach won't be Gatland?

If not, do we think that we'll get duffed up the bum in terms of being ignored for squad selection again this time round?

I can't decide where I am with this. I love the Lions and always will but I watched the last test series stone cold and rather unemotive with the lack of Scots interest. Perhaps that makes me a bad sport, I don't know but if we'd been edged out by the Aussies, I would have struggled to give a poop as much as I usually do.

Part of me also thinks that taking part in a murderously planned tour which cries out with the likelihood that half of our test players will be carrying major knocks before the first test even starts is an experience to be avoided. I remember 2005 well - let's not soft soap this, it was a massacre.

It's going to be Gatland, strictly for the fact that there's no-one else. Jones would have been good as he's taken this England team up another level in a short space of time. Which is a skill needed when coaching the Lions.

I'm hoping he does actually look over the Severn bridge for players this time because Wales, quite frankly, are clueless when it comes to SH opposition. Gatland needs to shoulder some of the blame for that.

But it doesn't really matter because the Lions are going to get pumped quite severely....possible by some of the SR teams too now that it's been announced the AB internationalists are going to be playing.

My interest is really thin as it is, but if, for example, LH was picked over Hogg (not so much LW), then I would completely switch off.

[Tattie Scones RRN]

I'd also like to ask this.....

What is all the hype around Itoje? He's a good player yes, but I don't get all the man juice flying about for him.

[EST]

I agree, 2009 seemed to be so much more inclusive than the Ozzie tour. As RDW stated, the treatment of Grant went a long way to explaining why. I don't particularly like Gatland either, and when he picked Shane Williams for that backup game it really annoyed me, despite knowing that it was only for a dirt tracker game/logistical reasons.

However, that doesn't take away from the fact that he is a very successful coach, granted not against SH opposition, but I can see why the Lions have gone for him again. As you say George, I'm not sure it matters who coaches us, we will lose regardless.

From a Scotland perspective, Hogg has a very good chance of being the starting 15. Outside of that, I think we will have more in contention than we have had for a while: Gray *2, Nel, Hardie, Dunbar, Scott and Seymour will all be in contention, but only if our national team perform well until the selection is made.

[EST]

I'd also like to ask this.....

What is all the hype around Itoje? He's a good player yes, but I don't get all the man juice flying about for him.

I kinda thought that when he first came onto the scene Tattie, however he has lived up to the hype I think. Athletic, mobile, powerful, devastating on the opposition lineout and calm under pressure - when I have seen him recently he looks like the complete player.

Of course has benefited from playing in two winning teams, but I think they are so good in no small part because of him.

[George Carlin]

It's Gatland. Watch me Try Hard To Be Excited.

[Senlac]

I have no time for the Lions in general, so won't go into all that.

From a wholly analytical point of view, however, I just don't see how they are in any way beneficial to Scotland.

It's true that is perhaps due to our lack of involvement, the treatment of our players as mentioned above, and the persistent feeling that even those players who are as good as or better than their counterparts from other countries are being overlooked simply because they play in a "losing" team. Possibly, if we had a consistent representation, both on the tour and in the matchday squad which felt "fair", it may be more appealing.

However, whatever way you look at it, our involvement is only ever going to be minimal, and the only real effect it's likely to have is to see us shorn of our top players during whatever internationals the Scotland team has the same summer, increasing our risk of losing to poorer teams (eg. Samoa 2013), which will only further dent national confidence and enhance our reputation as a losing side. Meanwhile, those top players are being broken in midweek bounce games for the Lions B Team (remember Simon Taylor?).

Would it not have been better in 2013, for example, for Richie Gray, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland and latterly Ryan Grant all to have headed to South Africa and helped us a) avoid a first defeat to Samoa, and b)possibly prove the difference in a very tight match against SA, potentially winning the tournament?

We have another similar tournament in 2017 in Australia while the Lions are in NZ, and I know where I feel our top players would be better off heading.


*Edit: What's the chances of Scottish Lions not being used the Saturday of a test being allowed to flit across the Tasman Sea?

[BigGee]

If Scotland are playing in Oz at the same time, it probably increases the chances of our players being called up as injury replacements this time and there are always injuries!

That could be a good or a bad thing depending on your perspective on the Lions and Scottish involvement. I have always been a big Lions fan as well, but the last tour did not grab me either, despite us winning. I am more than happy to wipe the slate clean though and hope for a more inclusive tour this time around.

[funnyExiledScot]

I appear to be alone in this, but I thoroughly enjoyed the last tour, in no small part down to the fact that the Lions won comprehensively. It's a massive challenge winning a Lions series, history tells us that, and whilst I'll always remember 2009 fondly for McGeechan (and Gatland) successfully re-launching the best thing in the rugby calendar (in my opinion), my favourite tours are 1997 and 2013 (in that order). I like winning.

2005 was completely awful, but I didn't particularly enjoy 2001 either. Henry had vast talent at his disposal and the failure to seal that Test series was a massive underachievement in my opinion.

[RDW]

In terms of living with Lions DVDs my list (in descending order)

2001 (Keith Wood in particular was brilliant)
2009 (McGeechan breaking down after his pre-3rd test speech   )
1997 (This is your Everest boys)
2013 (the Simon Zebo Munster captain punishment)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- 2005 ( should be left in the pits of hell)

[funnyExiledScot]

Surely the 1997 DVD is the best, if only for Jim Telfer sitting next to McGeechan ranting expletives throughout the games. The pair of them sitting there surrounded by South African fans is a lasting memory. Plus of course there's the Everest speech. Still gets me.

2005 belongs at the foot of the pile. Sir Smug Woodward was just awful. His speech at the start of the DVD reminds me of the awkwardness I felt when my Dad tried his range of dirty jokes on the future Mrs fES for the first time.

[RDW]

TBH, all of the DVDs apart from 2005 are brilliant and I'd happily watch them again any time, although the 2013 felt far too rushed and overly produced, without the characters of precious tours, so that's probably at the bottom of the pile.

On the 1997 one, am I alone in thinking McGeechan claps like Stewie from Family Guy when he gets excited?? Please tell me someone knows what I'm talking about!

[funnyExiledScot]

I don't. I'm too intellectual for Family Guy.

[RDW]

I don't. I'm too intellectual for Family Guy. now a parent so have no idea about any modern cultural references. Plus I am old and boring

[IanBru]

I don't. I'm too intellectual for Family Guy. now a parent so have no idea about any modern cultural references. Plus I am old and boring

YES! Thank you!

In other news, I realised this lunchtime that I was more excited that M&S had reduced their packets of smoked pancetta to a more manageable size, than I was about Gatland being Lions coach.

[funnyExiledScot]

I don't. I'm too intellectual for Family Guy. now a parent so have no idea about any modern cultural references. Plus I am old and boring

YES! Thank you!

In other news, I realised this lunchtime that I was more excited that M&S had reduced their packets of smoked pancetta to a more manageable size, than I was about Gatland being Lions coach.

To be fair, that is exciting. They have also redesigned the packaging on their fruit juice range, and I must say it looks excellent.

All fair points RDW, although I did make it to the pictures (I believe it's now called the "cinema") in 2004.

[RDW]

I don't. I'm too intellectual for Family Guy. now a parent so have no idea about any modern cultural references. Plus I am old and boring

YES! Thank you!

In other news, I realised this lunchtime that I was more excited that M&S had reduced their packets of smoked pancetta to a more manageable size, than I was about Gatland being Lions coach.

To be fair, that is exciting. They have also redesigned the packaging on their fruit juice range, and I must say it looks excellent.

All fair points RDW, although I did make it to the pictures (I believe it's now called the "cinema") in 2004.

At least you didn't call it the talkies.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

I don't. I'm too intellectual for Family Guy. now a parent so have no idea about any modern cultural references. Plus I am old and boring

YES! Thank you!

In other news, I realised this lunchtime that I was more excited that M&S had reduced their packets of smoked pancetta to a more manageable size, than I was about Gatland being Lions coach.

You're celebrating that a shop has made a packet of cured meat SMALLER? What. is. happening. here?!

[RDW]

What does it say about Glasgow the Mr Bru moved to Newcastle and it made him more sophisticated...

[Senlac]

If Scotland are playing in Oz at the same time, it probably increases the chances of our players being called up as injury replacements this time and there are always injuries!

That's a very good point I hadn't thought of. Not good from the Scotland tour perspective regardless of your views on the Lions.

Bad enough heading out there without your best players, but at least you'll be able to prepare knowing they're not available. If we end up with call-ups in the middle of the tour that could really screw us over.

[funnyExiledScot]

I don't. I'm too intellectual for Family Guy. now a parent so have no idea about any modern cultural references. Plus I am old and boring

YES! Thank you!

In other news, I realised this lunchtime that I was more excited that M&S had reduced their packets of smoked pancetta to a more manageable size, than I was about Gatland being Lions coach.

To be fair, that is exciting. They have also redesigned the packaging on their fruit juice range, and I must say it looks excellent.

All fair points RDW, although I did make it to the pictures (I believe it's now called the "cinema") in 2004.

At least you didn't call it the talkies.

That's GC's era.

[funnyExiledScot]

What does it say about Glasgow the Mr Bru moved to Newcastle and it made him more sophisticated...

Nothing we didn't know already.

[funnyExiledScot]

If Scotland are playing in Oz at the same time, it probably increases the chances of our players being called up as injury replacements this time and there are always injuries!

That's a very good point I hadn't thought of.  Not good from the Scotland tour perspective regardless of your views on the Lions.

Bad enough heading out there without your best players, but at least you'll be able to prepare knowing they're not available.  If we end up with call-ups in the middle of the tour that could really screw us over.

Regardless of who they ask for, we should just send them Tim Swinson. That'll learn them.

[IanBru]

I don't. I'm too intellectual for Family Guy. now a parent so have no idea about any modern cultural references. Plus I am old and boring

YES! Thank you!

In other news, I realised this lunchtime that I was more excited that M&S had reduced their packets of smoked pancetta to a more manageable size, than I was about Gatland being Lions coach.

You're celebrating that a shop has made a packet of cured meat SMALLER? What. is. happening. here?!

Sorry, to clarify, they've turned one giant tub of cured meat into two smaller individual packets. It means my spaghetti carbonara doesn't end up with a lump of bacon at the bottom of the bowl.

I've realised just how dull my life has become. Can it be Saturday please? I've got my day-trip to Scotstoun all planned.

Bake Off tonight, lads. I think it's bread week.

[Senlac]

If Scotland are playing in Oz at the same time, it probably increases the chances of our players being called up as injury replacements this time and there are always injuries!

That's a very good point I hadn't thought of.  Not good from the Scotland tour perspective regardless of your views on the Lions.

Bad enough heading out there without your best players, but at least you'll be able to prepare knowing they're not available.  If we end up with call-ups in the middle of the tour that could really screw us over.

Regardless of who they ask for, we should just send them Tim Swinson. That'll learn them.

Or given Gatland's record for calling players out of retirement, we should maybe take Chunk along with us for exactly that scenario!

[RDW]

I wonder how many Scotland players will 'do a Nicol' and after the Aus tour go on holiday to NZ for the rest of the Lions tour...

[George Carlin]

I don't. I'm too intellectual for Family Guy. now a parent so have no idea about any modern cultural references. Plus I am old and boring

YES! Thank you!

In other news, I realised this lunchtime that I was more excited that M&S had reduced their packets of smoked pancetta to a more manageable size, than I was about Gatland being Lions coach.

To be fair, that is exciting. They have also redesigned the packaging on their fruit juice range, and I must say it looks excellent.

All fair points RDW, although I did make it to the pictures (I believe it's now called the "cinema") in 2004.

At least you didn't call it the talkies.

That's GC's era.

I'm only 39 you vicious barsteward.

[funnyExiledScot]

I wonder how many Scotland players will 'do a Nicol' and after the Aus tour go on holiday to NZ for the rest of the Lions tour...

To be fair, most of our players have family there....

[RDW]

I suppose it isn't a holiday if they're just going home for the summer!

[GLove39]

I have no time for the Lions in general, so won't go into all that.

From a wholly analytical point of view, however, I just don't see how they are in any way beneficial to Scotland.

It's true that is perhaps due to our lack of involvement, the treatment of our players as mentioned above, and the persistent feeling that even those players who are as good as or better than their counterparts from other countries are being overlooked simply because they play in a "losing" team.  Possibly, if we had a consistent representation, both on the tour and in the matchday squad which felt "fair", it may be more appealing.

However, whatever way you look at it, our involvement is only ever going to be minimal, and the only real effect it's likely to have is to see us shorn of our top players during whatever internationals the Scotland team has the same summer, increasing our risk of losing to poorer teams (eg. Samoa 2013), which will only further dent national confidence and enhance our reputation as a losing side.  Meanwhile, those top players are being broken in midweek bounce games for the Lions B Team (remember Simon Taylor?).

Would it not have been better in 2013, for example, for Richie Gray, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland and latterly Ryan Grant all to have headed to South Africa and helped us a) avoid a first defeat to Samoa, and b)possibly prove the difference in a very tight match against SA, potentially winning the tournament?

We have another similar tournament in 2017 in Australia while the Lions are in NZ, and I know where I feel our top players would be better off heading.


*Edit:  What's the chances of Scottish Lions not being used the Saturday of a test being allowed to flit across the Tasman Sea?

+1,000,000

So glad to see I'm not the only one left cold by the Lions.
And yes, sod the suicide mission to NZ, lets take our strongest side & back up Novembers win* over the Wallabies!


(*touches wood)

[tigertattie]

It's a real shame as the Lions used to be a proper rugby spectacle with the best from the Isles taking on one of the big three.

Now it seems to be a jobs for the boys routine which is actually harming our rugby rather than enhancing it!

I've said before that the Lions coach shouldn't be a current coach of any of the international teams that make up the Lions (or someone who has recently stepped down)

It would be great if the lions had a four coach committee where whatever team from each nation finished highest in their league was given the chance to join the lions and show thier coaching credentials on an international level. Almost like an apprenticeship.

[funnyExiledScot]

I have no time for the Lions in general, so won't go into all that.

From a wholly analytical point of view, however, I just don't see how they are in any way beneficial to Scotland.

It's true that is perhaps due to our lack of involvement, the treatment of our players as mentioned above, and the persistent feeling that even those players who are as good as or better than their counterparts from other countries are being overlooked simply because they play in a "losing" team.  Possibly, if we had a consistent representation, both on the tour and in the matchday squad which felt "fair", it may be more appealing.

However, whatever way you look at it, our involvement is only ever going to be minimal, and the only real effect it's likely to have is to see us shorn of our top players during whatever internationals the Scotland team has the same summer, increasing our risk of losing to poorer teams (eg. Samoa 2013), which will only further dent national confidence and enhance our reputation as a losing side.  Meanwhile, those top players are being broken in midweek bounce games for the Lions B Team (remember Simon Taylor?).

Would it not have been better in 2013, for example, for Richie Gray, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland and latterly Ryan Grant all to have headed to South Africa and helped us a) avoid a first defeat to Samoa, and b)possibly prove the difference in a very tight match against SA, potentially winning the tournament?

We have another similar tournament in 2017 in Australia while the Lions are in NZ, and I know where I feel our top players would be better off heading.


*Edit:  What's the chances of Scottish Lions not being used the Saturday of a test being allowed to flit across the Tasman Sea?

+1,000,000

So glad to see I'm not the only one left cold by the Lions.
And yes, sod the suicide mission to NZ, lets take our strongest side & back up Novembers win* over the Wallabies!


(*touches wood)

I can't believe a rugby man like yourself has no time for the Lions! I can only assume that it's because the first tour you probably remember was 2005, and that you were 3 years old in 1997 (which was, I think, the tour that sparked the Lions fever in me).

[George Carlin]

I have no time for the Lions in general, so won't go into all that.

From a wholly analytical point of view, however, I just don't see how they are in any way beneficial to Scotland.

It's true that is perhaps due to our lack of involvement, the treatment of our players as mentioned above, and the persistent feeling that even those players who are as good as or better than their counterparts from other countries are being overlooked simply because they play in a "losing" team.  Possibly, if we had a consistent representation, both on the tour and in the matchday squad which felt "fair", it may be more appealing.

However, whatever way you look at it, our involvement is only ever going to be minimal, and the only real effect it's likely to have is to see us shorn of our top players during whatever internationals the Scotland team has the same summer, increasing our risk of losing to poorer teams (eg. Samoa 2013), which will only further dent national confidence and enhance our reputation as a losing side.  Meanwhile, those top players are being broken in midweek bounce games for the Lions B Team (remember Simon Taylor?).

Would it not have been better in 2013, for example, for Richie Gray, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland and latterly Ryan Grant all to have headed to South Africa and helped us a) avoid a first defeat to Samoa, and b)possibly prove the difference in a very tight match against SA, potentially winning the tournament?

We have another similar tournament in 2017 in Australia while the Lions are in NZ, and I know where I feel our top players would be better off heading.


*Edit:  What's the chances of Scottish Lions not being used the Saturday of a test being allowed to flit across the Tasman Sea?

+1,000,000

So glad to see I'm not the only one left cold by the Lions.
And yes, sod the suicide mission to NZ, lets take our strongest side & back up Novembers win* over the Wallabies!


(*touches wood)

Graham - are you aware that you have made the NZ national press?:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11704971

[GLove39]

I have no time for the Lions in general, so won't go into all that.

From a wholly analytical point of view, however, I just don't see how they are in any way beneficial to Scotland.

It's true that is perhaps due to our lack of involvement, the treatment of our players as mentioned above, and the persistent feeling that even those players who are as good as or better than their counterparts from other countries are being overlooked simply because they play in a "losing" team.  Possibly, if we had a consistent representation, both on the tour and in the matchday squad which felt "fair", it may be more appealing.

However, whatever way you look at it, our involvement is only ever going to be minimal, and the only real effect it's likely to have is to see us shorn of our top players during whatever internationals the Scotland team has the same summer, increasing our risk of losing to poorer teams (eg. Samoa 2013), which will only further dent national confidence and enhance our reputation as a losing side.  Meanwhile, those top players are being broken in midweek bounce games for the Lions B Team (remember Simon Taylor?).

Would it not have been better in 2013, for example, for Richie Gray, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland and latterly Ryan Grant all to have headed to South Africa and helped us a) avoid a first defeat to Samoa, and b)possibly prove the difference in a very tight match against SA, potentially winning the tournament?

We have another similar tournament in 2017 in Australia while the Lions are in NZ, and I know where I feel our top players would be better off heading.


*Edit:  What's the chances of Scottish Lions not being used the Saturday of a test being allowed to flit across the Tasman Sea?

+1,000,000

So glad to see I'm not the only one left cold by the Lions.
And yes, sod the suicide mission to NZ, lets take our strongest side & back up Novembers win* over the Wallabies!


(*touches wood)

Graham - are you aware that you have made the NZ national press?:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11704971

Wouldn't be the first time!

Also good spot GC, funny story on this whole thing, could probably have made the Telegraph as well if I hadn't told their picture editor to use the Scot Johnson version instead!

[tigertattie]

that beard is getting out of control!

And it's not just because it's ginger!

[GLove39]

that beard is getting out of control!

And it's not just because it's ginger!

FFS Mum, since when were you on 606v2?

[GLove39]

I have no time for the Lions in general, so won't go into all that.

From a wholly analytical point of view, however, I just don't see how they are in any way beneficial to Scotland.

It's true that is perhaps due to our lack of involvement, the treatment of our players as mentioned above, and the persistent feeling that even those players who are as good as or better than their counterparts from other countries are being overlooked simply because they play in a "losing" team.  Possibly, if we had a consistent representation, both on the tour and in the matchday squad which felt "fair", it may be more appealing.

However, whatever way you look at it, our involvement is only ever going to be minimal, and the only real effect it's likely to have is to see us shorn of our top players during whatever internationals the Scotland team has the same summer, increasing our risk of losing to poorer teams (eg. Samoa 2013), which will only further dent national confidence and enhance our reputation as a losing side.  Meanwhile, those top players are being broken in midweek bounce games for the Lions B Team (remember Simon Taylor?).

Would it not have been better in 2013, for example, for Richie Gray, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland and latterly Ryan Grant all to have headed to South Africa and helped us a) avoid a first defeat to Samoa, and b)possibly prove the difference in a very tight match against SA, potentially winning the tournament?

We have another similar tournament in 2017 in Australia while the Lions are in NZ, and I know where I feel our top players would be better off heading.


*Edit:  What's the chances of Scottish Lions not being used the Saturday of a test being allowed to flit across the Tasman Sea?

+1,000,000

So glad to see I'm not the only one left cold by the Lions.
And yes, sod the suicide mission to NZ, lets take our strongest side & back up Novembers win* over the Wallabies!


(*touches wood)

I can't believe a rugby man like yourself has no time for the Lions! I can only assume that it's because the first tour you probably remember was 2005, and that you were 3 years old in 1997 (which was, I think, the tour that sparked the Lions fever in me).

Haha, age is definitely a factor, my first Lions memory is anger / disappointment at Paterson being overlooked in 05.

The real killer for me is just how small a part we've played in the last 3 tours, especially when it comes to the actual tests. Not a single start & just 2 appearances off the bench for a grand total of 56 minutes. That's 56 minutes in over 12 hours of rugby!!! And of those 56, 43 belong to Ford in the dead rubber 3rd test in 09 & in a similar way by the time Gray was allowed on last time the tour was won.

So yeah, rather mehhh towards them.

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