Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread XIII - Camp Crystal Meth

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

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The season has commenced

[RossAnderson]

I have no time for the Lions in general, so won't go into all that.

From a wholly analytical point of view, however, I just don't see how they are in any way beneficial to Scotland.

It's true that is perhaps due to our lack of involvement, the treatment of our players as mentioned above, and the persistent feeling that even those players who are as good as or better than their counterparts from other countries are being overlooked simply because they play in a "losing" team.  Possibly, if we had a consistent representation, both on the tour and in the matchday squad which felt "fair", it may be more appealing.

However, whatever way you look at it, our involvement is only ever going to be minimal, and the only real effect it's likely to have is to see us shorn of our top players during whatever internationals the Scotland team has the same summer, increasing our risk of losing to poorer teams (eg. Samoa 2013), which will only further dent national confidence and enhance our reputation as a losing side.  Meanwhile, those top players are being broken in midweek bounce games for the Lions B Team (remember Simon Taylor?).

Would it not have been better in 2013, for example, for Richie Gray, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland and latterly Ryan Grant all to have headed to South Africa and helped us a) avoid a first defeat to Samoa, and b)possibly prove the difference in a very tight match against SA, potentially winning the tournament?

We have another similar tournament in 2017 in Australia while the Lions are in NZ, and I know where I feel our top players would be better off heading.


*Edit:  What's the chances of Scottish Lions not being used the Saturday of a test being allowed to flit across the Tasman Sea?

+1,000,000

So glad to see I'm not the only one left cold by the Lions.
And yes, sod the suicide mission to NZ, lets take our strongest side & back up Novembers win* over the Wallabies!


(*touches wood)

I can't believe a rugby man like yourself has no time for the Lions! I can only assume that it's because the first tour you probably remember was 2005, and that you were 3 years old in 1997 (which was, I think, the tour that sparked the Lions fever in me).

Haha, age is definitely a factor, my first Lions memory is anger / disappointment at Paterson being overlooked in 05.

The real killer for me is just how small a part we've played in the last 3 tours, especially when it comes to the actual tests. Not a single start & just 2 appearances off the bench for a grand total of 56 minutes. That's 56 minutes in over 12 hours of rugby!!! And of those 56, 43 belong to Ford in the dead rubber 3rd test in 09 & in a similar way by the time Gray was allowed on last time the tour was won.

So yeah, rather mehhh towards them.

Agreed. Until I watch a tour where Scottish players make a major contribution I'll feel the same way.

[cakeordeath]

that beard is getting out of control!

And it's not just because it's ginger!

FFS Mum, since when were you on 606v2?

I feel your pain. I have a beard of Josh Strauss proportions, and every Sunday when I visit my gran I have to endure a 30 minute lecture on why I should shave it off

[RDW]

I have no time for the Lions in general, so won't go into all that.

From a wholly analytical point of view, however, I just don't see how they are in any way beneficial to Scotland.

It's true that is perhaps due to our lack of involvement, the treatment of our players as mentioned above, and the persistent feeling that even those players who are as good as or better than their counterparts from other countries are being overlooked simply because they play in a "losing" team.  Possibly, if we had a consistent representation, both on the tour and in the matchday squad which felt "fair", it may be more appealing.

However, whatever way you look at it, our involvement is only ever going to be minimal, and the only real effect it's likely to have is to see us shorn of our top players during whatever internationals the Scotland team has the same summer, increasing our risk of losing to poorer teams (eg. Samoa 2013), which will only further dent national confidence and enhance our reputation as a losing side.  Meanwhile, those top players are being broken in midweek bounce games for the Lions B Team (remember Simon Taylor?).

Would it not have been better in 2013, for example, for Richie Gray, Stuart Hogg, Sean Maitland and latterly Ryan Grant all to have headed to South Africa and helped us a) avoid a first defeat to Samoa, and b)possibly prove the difference in a very tight match against SA, potentially winning the tournament?

We have another similar tournament in 2017 in Australia while the Lions are in NZ, and I know where I feel our top players would be better off heading.


*Edit:  What's the chances of Scottish Lions not being used the Saturday of a test being allowed to flit across the Tasman Sea?

+1,000,000

So glad to see I'm not the only one left cold by the Lions.
And yes, sod the suicide mission to NZ, lets take our strongest side & back up Novembers win* over the Wallabies!


(*touches wood)

I can't believe a rugby man like yourself has no time for the Lions! I can only assume that it's because the first tour you probably remember was 2005, and that you were 3 years old in 1997 (which was, I think, the tour that sparked the Lions fever in me).

Haha, age is definitely a factor, my first Lions memory is anger / disappointment at Paterson being overlooked in 05.

The real killer for me is just how small a part we've played in the last 3 tours, especially when it comes to the actual tests. Not a single start & just 2 appearances off the bench for a grand total of 56 minutes. That's 56 minutes in over 12 hours of rugby!!! And of those 56, 43 belong to Ford in the dead rubber 3rd test in 09 & in a similar way by the time Gray was allowed on last time the tour was won.

So yeah, rather mehhh towards them.

Agreed. Until I watch a tour where Scottish players make a major contribution I'll feel the same way.

For me it's not about Scottish players making a major contribution - that's not been the case since 1997 really - but enjoyment is certainly dampened when there is a sense of injustice over how they have been treated. As I said I loved the 2009 tour and there was hardly any Scottish involvement in that too!

[funnyExiledScot]

I think selection injustice (or perceived selection injustice if you're Irish) is probably one of the core issues that gnaws away at the Lions. It's why 2005 was such a duff tour. I'm honestly not at all bothered about Scottish representation unless there are Scottish players that deserve to be there. Over the last few tours it's been pretty tough to make that argument. This time we can hopefully have a few players involved.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

I think selection injustice (or perceived selection injustice if you're Irish) is probably one of the core issues that gnaws away at the Lions. It's why 2005 was such a duff tour. I'm honestly not at all bothered about Scottish representation unless there are Scottish players that deserve to be there. Over the last few tours it's been pretty tough to make that argument. This time we can hopefully have a few players involved.

I can fully understand why people whos first experience of a Lions tour involved watching Alistair Campbell strut about in Lions training kit would have trouble embracing the concept. While I don't agree that the Lions tours should be stopped, I do agree with aspects of what Austin Healey is saying ( ), particularly that there should be more focus on making each tour unique in terms of selecting uncapped players and giving opportunities to new up and coming coaches. I worry I may struggle to get excited about this tour given how similar the coaching and playing groups may end up being to the last one

[Hazel Sapling]

Quick question, is Sam Johnson available for Scotland or have the Australians tied him with an "A" match? He is starting to look like he could develop into an international 12 as a just turned 23 year old.

[NeilyBroon]

Quick question, is Sam Johnson available for Scotland or have the Australians tied him with an "A" match? He is starting to look like he could develop into an international 12 as a just turned 23 year old.

It was Australian schoolboys 'A' so technically yes I think he could still run out for Scotland... He's only been here a year though, let's not get ahead of ourselves!

http://www.redsrugby.com.au/NRC/nrcplayerprofile.aspx?pid=284

[GLove39]

So happy days Edinburgh are up & running, or maybe in honour of wee Duncy lets say waddling!

But what's up with the crowd???? Only 2650 rattling around Murrayfield. Even accounting for the pish performance last week & the pish weather tonight that's rather worrying.
Did all the other fans follow RDW down to London or something!?

[HongKongCherry]

Who said Scott isn't a 13?! He's bl00dy fantastic there! 2 games in and he's already saving Glaws' season

[RDW]

So happy days Edinburgh are up & running, or maybe in honour of wee Duncy lets say waddling!

But what's up with the crowd???? Only 2650 rattling around Murrayfield. Even accounting for the pish performance last week & the pish weather tonight that's rather worrying.
Did all the other fans follow RDW down to London or something!?

Did you not get the invite? Woops...

Edinburgh don't have a big core support - tonight's win will bring a lot of people next week and there's usually a good Leinster contingent in Edinburgh - I reckon it'll be over 4k next week.

[RDW]

Who said Scott isn't a 13?! He's bl00dy fantastic there! 2 games in and he's already saving Glaws' season

Shows what happens when backs leave Edinburgh and Alan Solomons!

[BigGee]

Who said Scott isn't a 13?! He's bl00dy fantastic there! 2 games in and he's already saving Glaws' season

The move to Gloucester looks like it could be the making of Matt Scott, we might see how good a player he really can be now, at 12 or 13!

[tigertattie]

WTF!!!

I go out for one night and I come home and Edinburgh win a game!

Maybe I should go out more often?

[jimbopip]

I watched the MFL last night, well most of it, it was dire. No, really dire.
Wee Dunky stood out mainly because he was willing to try things and looked to be creative whenever possible. Solomans will try to beat that out of him I'd imagine.
Chinhook the Pacifist stood out due to his steadfast refusal to hit his jumpers. You've got to admire a man who stands by his principles.

And in what sort of universe is it fair that the dross we saw last night gets TV time and the Once And Future Champions are nowhere to be seen this weekend?

[IanBru]

Jim, I think we're on Sky Sports 3 today, but I might be wrong.

I'm a free man today, with Hagia Sophia tied to her desk, so I've headed through to Glasgow. Now picture the scene, I turn up at Central bedecked in all Warriors Blue, to find that it's Old Firm day. Hurray. So my walk through the city centre in search of lunch has become an exercise in appearing as non-threatening as possible.

Of course, as Jim and Glove will attest, the very idea that I would appear threatening us somewhat laughable. Most domestic pets, including those that could fit in a woman's handbag, seem to see me and think "Oh is that right? Ok pal, SQUARE GO!"

[jimbopip]

Ian, The first half of this post should be read while remembering, I used to work in a bar: one night a pretty young woman came in and asked for a double entendre. So I gave her one.

So we have the image of Hagia Sophia tied to a desk scorched across our retinas now.

Also, you placing "small furry animals" in ladies "handbags".

I assume that by now you are at Scotstoun and soaking up the atmosphere. Has the Schizoid one returned from the Zika Trail yet?

Anyhoo, Jean Paul-Hoggy-Tenessee Tam now there's a back three. Can you give us a heads up on Sam Johnson? I haven't seen him live yet, he looks small for a 12 but seemingly he , a la Richie V, has played back row too!

[Prothero]

Dunky Weir man! Dunky Weir!, nuggety in stature, huge in influence....he was the main man for edinburgh last night completely ran the show, Geeing up the guys around him and leading by example. Got a feeling this is going to be a great season for him. Couple more performances like that and he is nailed on for the Autumn internationals.

On the flip side big Ritchie at 6, i have watched the last two Edinburgh games and im pretty sure he has dropped every ball that's came to him and he didnt strike me as particularly physical even though that's what solly sees in him apparently? bit worried that his confidence and reputation is going to dip unless he pulls a performance out during the next couple of games. He seemed on the periphery of things quite alot like he was hiding a little, hope the yellow card last game hasnt stopped him wanting to influence things?

[tigertattie]

Ritchie was playing well at the tail of last season. He'll come good again.

[GLove39]

Frak me Sean Maitland just scored a try for Saracens.
End of days

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

2nd try for Maitland, albeit a walk in!

[funnyExiledScot]

Today shall hereafter be known as Sean Maitland Day.

[RDW]

Denton ruled out for 4 months with a torn hamstring. Blow for him given Faletau is also injured!

[jimbopip]

Caz the Quiet Bok just sent me a message asking if I wanted two tickets for the Calcutta Cup match in March. Woo Hoo. As Homer Simpson has been known to say. Baz, the nippy scrum half, is organising a hotel room for us (our wives can keep each other company that evening) and it is shaping up to be a good Sunday. Young Pipetto played his first game of the season and played the best I have ever seen him, including a try with a Finn Russellesque dummy. The I took MrsPip out for lunch and now a 6 Nations weekend has fallen into my lap.

[Hazel Sapling]

Bad for Denton as he really could have used a month as an established 8 to get some form. Means the 8 spot will be fought between Wilson, Strauss and CDP unless Bradbury really impresses.

Quite like the idea of a Barclay, Hardie and CDP back row. Strauss off the bench at the hour mark to push CDP into 6.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Jimbo's sympathy towards young David Denton's nasty injury is very touching

[funnyExiledScot]

Caz the Quiet Bok just sent me a message asking if I wanted two tickets for the Calcutta Cup match in March. Woo Hoo. As Homer Simpson has been known to say. Baz, the nippy scrum half, is organising a hotel room for us (our wives can keep each other company that evening) and it is shaping up to be a good Sunday. Young Pipetto played his first game of the season and played the best I have ever seen him, including a try with a Finn Russellesque dummy. The I took MrsPip out for lunch and now a 6 Nations weekend has fallen into my lap.

I've always liked you Jimbo. I feel we have a lot in common and would get along famously. I happen to be free that weekend.....

[funnyExiledScot]

Denton ruled out for 4 months with a torn hamstring. Blow for him given Faletau is also injured!

That's really annoying. Step forward Magnus Bradbury.

[bsando]

Denton ruled out for 4 months with a torn hamstring. Blow for him given Faletau is also injured!

That's really annoying. Step forward Magnus Bradbury.

That was my exact thought when I read that. Ashe and Denton out, Bradbury and Du Preez (potentially) in?

[RDW]

I can't see Bradbury playing for Scotland any time soon unless there are more injuries - CDP should be back very soon and Manu is only out for 3-4 weeks so he may lose his place before long.

It's all good though, Scotland have got Ryan Wilson...

[BigGee]

I think you might be rushing Bradbury a bit. Let him get established with Edinburgh first, he is still pretty light on game time, though I would agree that he has massive potential.

Strauss, CDP, Wilson all still well ahead in the pecking order. He just needs to keep working and he will put himself in the mix.

Makes you think though, add Ashe and Dents to that list and we are not badly off for No.8 at the moment.

[BigGee]

I think you might be rushing Bradbury a bit. Let him get established with Edinburgh first, he is still pretty light on game time, though I would agree that he has massive potential.

Strauss, CDP, Wilson all still well ahead in the pecking order. He just needs to keep working and he will put himself in the mix.

Makes you think though, add Ashe and Dents to that list and we are not badly off for No.8 at the moment.

[funnyExiledScot]

I can't see Bradbury playing for Scotland any time soon unless there are more injuries - CDP should be back very soon and Manu is only out for 3-4 weeks so he may lose his place before long.

It's all good though, Scotland have got Ryan Wilson...

That's what concerns me. Clearly Bradbury isn't ready yet, but I just can't accept that Wilson is good enough to play for Scotland.

[bsando]

I like Wilson, just wish he did less brain farts

[RDW]

I think the same can be said about both Wilson and Swinson - they work their nuts off each game and are good club players, but if we want to have a national team that actually does something of note then we really need higher caliber players than those two. If we had Ryan Wilson starting at 8 then we'd have the worst number 8 out of all the 6N teams and Swinson would get nowhere near any other top 8 team.

I'm a very vocal critic of Swinson at international level but I've got to say he's been outstanding in the first 2 games of the season.  If wonder child Gilchrist stays fit up to the AIs it will be interesting to see who they pick.

[reallybored]

I think the same can be said about both Wilson and Swinson - they work their nuts off each game and are good club players, but if we want to have a national team that actually does something of note then we really need higher caliber players than those two. If we had Ryan Wilson starting at 8 then we'd have the worst number 8 out of all the 6N teams and Swinson would get nowhere near any other top 8 team.

I'm a very vocal critic of Swinson at international level but I've got to say he's been outstanding in the first 2 games of the season.  If wonder child Gilchrist stays fit up to the AIs it will be interesting to see who they pick.

Worth remembering that Wilson played very well last 6 Nations when we beat France.

Shame that both Ashe and Denton are injured but both should be fit come 6 Nations.

Would love to see Bradbury involved sooner rather than later but probably a touch too early.

Would also like to see Ritchie involved too. I'm sick of our 2 7s combo, need more balance in the back row.

[funnyExiledScot]

I think the same can be said about both Wilson and Swinson - they work their nuts off each game and are good club players, but if we want to have a national team that actually does something of note then we really need higher caliber players than those two. If we had Ryan Wilson starting at 8 then we'd have the worst number 8 out of all the 6N teams and Swinson would get nowhere near any other top 8 team.

I'm a very vocal critic of Swinson at international level but I've got to say he's been outstanding in the first 2 games of the season.  If wonder child Gilchrist stays fit up to the AIs it will be interesting to see who they pick.

It's an interesting one. Swinson would be the clear form pick, but Gilchrist would seem the better bet for the long term. Problem with Gilchrist is that at some point patience will run out, and people will start to judge him for what he is, rather than what he could be.

[BigGee]

Gilchrist had a better game this week than last. Let him get properly match fit and hardened, something he has not really been for years and then we can judge him.

At the moment though, it is Swinson by a mile.

I thought Cummings might have put himself in the frame this year as well, but it now looks like he will miss most of the season through injury.

[EST]

I agree on both Wilson and Swinson (who has been brilliant so far this season), more than adequate Pro 12 players, but put Wilson up against Picamoles/Vunipola/Faletau/Heaslip/Parisse and there is a massive drop off in quality. Likewise when you do the same exercise for Swinson.

I actually think that 8, despite having numerous options, is one of our weakest positions. Ashe and Wilson are not international standard, Dents, for all his physical capabilities, has numerous technical faults and Strauss has never really translated his club form to the international circuit. Hopefully Bradbury in time can push on and CDP will provide another option, although I see him as our starting 6.

[bsando]

Agree RDW, it is definitely about having a level of consistency across each position if we want to win the 6N. Yes Wilson had some good games in the last 6N, but he needs to be hitting that level more often and improving his discipline. Swinson I like for Glasgow but will he ever be on par with likes of POC, AWJ, Itoje, Kruis, Gray? Gilchrist on the other hand I can see hitting those levels of performance. I suspect he will work his way back into contention for the Autumn tests and build his confidence/form steadily this season.

[RDW]

I suppose like the Lions selections it is just too early to call what position we'll be in come the 6N.

I just hope Seymour isn't peaking too early - it's a long way to go in this season and he'll struggle to maintain his form the whole time!

[bsando]

I agree on both Wilson and Swinson (who has been brilliant so far this season), more than adequate Pro 12 players, but put Wilson up against Picamoles/Vunipola/Faletau/Heaslip/Parisse and there is a massive drop off in quality. Likewise when you do the same exercise for Swinson.

I actually think that 8, despite having numerous options, is one of our weakest positions.  Ashe and Wilson are not international standard, Dents, for all his physical capabilities, has numerous technical faults and Strauss has never really translated his club form to the international circuit.  Hopefully Bradbury in time can push on and CDP will provide another option, although I see him as our starting 6.

Strauss's level of fitness has been most disappointing for me at international level. He has looked a bit slow to get into defence at time for Scotland and hasn't looked the same physical threat he is for Glasgow. Glad he has been rested so far this season.

Denton like you say has technical faults, ie passing the ball to his fellow players.

if only we could put all their best qualities into one body..

I'm eager to see how CDP goes if he gets a cap, I think he is a great player. Likewise with Bradbury, but agree he probably needs more time with Edinburgh first team.

[RDW]

In terms of performance level for their clubs I'm going to put a bold statement out there that CDP has been the best of the lot over the last few years from all our 6/8 options. His physicality is ferocious and he has a very good all round skillset. It is terrifying to think that he's only 25.

Whether that can transform into the international arena is a different question though.

I have high hopes he can be our answer to the 6 jersey, which we've struggled to fill since Jason White.

[RDW]

https://www.606v2.com/t63992-edinburgh-vs-leinster-friday-16th-september-2016#3430689

Credit to FES' summer placement student

[EST]

I agree on both Wilson and Swinson (who has been brilliant so far this season), more than adequate Pro 12 players, but put Wilson up against Picamoles/Vunipola/Faletau/Heaslip/Parisse and there is a massive drop off in quality. Likewise when you do the same exercise for Swinson.

I actually think that 8, despite having numerous options, is one of our weakest positions.  Ashe and Wilson are not international standard, Dents, for all his physical capabilities, has numerous technical faults and Strauss has never really translated his club form to the international circuit.  Hopefully Bradbury in time can push on and CDP will provide another option, although I see him as our starting 6.

Strauss's level of fitness has been most disappointing for me at international level. He has looked a bit slow to get into defence at time for Scotland and hasn't looked the same physical threat he is for Glasgow. Glad he has been rested so far this season.

Denton like you say has technical faults, ie passing the ball to his fellow players.

if only we could put all their best qualities into one body..

I'm eager to see how CDP goes if he gets a cap, I think he is a great player. Likewise with Bradbury, but agree he probably needs more time with Edinburgh first team.

I think Strauss will come good internationally, he has all of the physical tools and he now knows what it takes to succeed at International rugby. He had a difficult introduction to life as an international player, jumping straight into a WC, but like you said, he has had a good rest this off-season and should come back for Glasgow fresh.

I think he also struggled as in the Scotland pack we have very few carrying options, our 8 carries a big burden in that regard. Hopefully with CDP on board the load can be spread out a bit more evenly.

[Nematode]

It's hard on Denton as this could have been a great opportunity to establish himself as Bath's first choice 8. Having watched him a few times for Bath, I've been a bit disappointed. He doesn't really get as involved as much as you'd expect him to - I can't recall him playing like he did in that game vs Racing for instance. A club like Leicester, Saracens or Northampton may have suited his style of play a little better.

For the number 8 spot, I feel Wilson is a (very) decent club player, however, he is prone to making idiotic decisions (the tackle vs Connacht could have been a red) which in a close international match could make the difference between winning and losing the game. For that reason I don't think he is an international player. He has played well in some international games to his credit, but as a number 7 as far as I recall.

I think Bradbury is too inexperienced for international rugby this season but he has been Edinburgh's most underrated player last season and this season IMO. His handling is very good and he has great power and awareness. Next season he deserves a shot at international rugby.

I'd like to see a back row of 6 Strauss/CDP, 7 Hardie, 8 Barclay. If we go with two sevens like Australia I think we need a player like Strauss/CDP who is confident with the ball but will focus on carrying. I think they offer a bit more carrying power than Harley, although with one seven Harley may not be a bad inclusion.

*Edit - With one seven I'd rather have e.g. Strauss, Hardie, CDP

[EST]

In terms of performance level for their clubs I'm going to put a bold statement out there that CDP has been the best of the lot over the last few years from all our 6/8 options. His physicality is ferocious and he has a very good all round skillset. It is terrifying to think that he's only 25.

Whether that can transform into the international arena is a different question though.

I have high hopes he can be our answer to the 6 jersey, which we've struggled to fill since Jason White.

I would agree, RDW. I think he is a better all round player than Strauss and will help us hugely when he qualifies. I was a big proponent of Barclay at 6, because I think he was the best option at the time, but I can't wait to see CDP there being a horrible barsteward. I do hope he can adapt quicker than the beard has.

[Nematode]

Bit of an odd question, but does anyone know what has happened to Max Evans?

[BigGee]

CDP has played for Heriots the past 2 weeks, getting his fitness up to scratch. I would imagine that he will be playing for Edinburgh this Friday.

[Hazel Sapling]

I suppose like the Lions selections it is just too early to call what position we'll be in come the 6N.

I just hope Seymour isn't peaking too early - it's a long way to go in this season and he'll struggle to maintain his form the whole time!

Somehow I doubt Seymour is going to average a hat-trick a game throughout the season. Interestingly it takes 10-13 tries a season to be top try scorer and he is already halfway there.

On the lock issue, I think Toolis is also ahead of Swinson even if Swinson has improved a lot since the Northampton debacle. Gilchrist to me is at the back of the queue until he demonstrates he is a better player. Cummings would have been ready for the 6 Nations in my opinion if he is healthy. If he is out for a prolonged period, will we see the other lock Hunter-Hill get a shot in November?

As for the back row, we have an option for a bigger set in CDP/Barclay/Strauss. Personally CDP/Hardie/Strauss with Barclay off the bench looks strong.

[George Carlin]

https://www.606v2.com/t63994-cardiff-blues-v-glasgow-warriors-16-september

Or as I've couched it, JM Barrie v Roald Dahl.

Staggeringly little academic commentary is available on which of those two individual children's writers would have it in a tear-up. Let's see.

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