England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

A bit early, but with squads due to be announced next week thought I'd start a thread to collate all winter tours news...

Firstly it appears the Bangladesh tour will go ahead despite security concerns. I for one am glad of this, gives England a chance to acclimatise to Asian conditions against an improving Bangladesh outfit (especially as England have no planned tour matches in India)

Secondly - it appears Haseeb Hameed will be getting the nod for Bangladesh according to Nick Hoult - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2016/08/29/england-plan-to-call-up-teenage-opener-haseeb-hameed-for-banglad/

Peoples initial thoughts on that?

[LondonTiger]

Re: the tour in general - Players have been given the right to stay at home should they wish not to travel, I wonder what will happen if there are any further "incidents" between now and the planned departure.


Re: Hameed - I would be a touch worried that they take Hameed before he is ready and then set his career back significantly. He had been quietly going about his business, with minimal press attention until the recent roses match. His form since he has been headline news has not been as promising. I have not seen him play, but going on the word of those who have he looks a real prospect - but one who is still working on developing his game, and someone who wants to develop into an all formats cricketerr (very much a firs class grinder atm). It would be a lot to ask him to open the batting on turning pitches with the opposiition opting to open with spin.

[Gooseberry]

It does smack a bit of desperation and a slap in the face for the guys whove gone through the system and made runs with the Lions.

The coaches/scouts must really see something they like a lot in him, just scoring runs in the CC certainly shouldnt be enough to get him in contention ...or theyd be knocking on Trescothicks door again.

There may be an element of wanting to give him a taste of the environment rather than seeing him as a player who could force his way into the test side for India or ewven the summer, and give another player a break for some tour games. But that just reminds me of the way Rashid has been treated as the best paid waiter in world sport.

[alfie]

I know it was White Ball cricket , and he had some luck : but do you not think Hales gave them a bit of a nudge yesterday ?

[Gooseberry]

Not really. We have always known he can do that in limited overs, its how he got the gig in the first place. Its maybe answered questions about his confidence following the a poor run but thgats relevant to the shorter formats really.

His test record is still bobbins compared to his limited overs one (although caveat that by saying it took him a fair while to establish himself in ODIs)

[LondonTiger]

At the end of the last domestic season, Hales had played 20 ODIs scoring 408 runs - with a highest score of 67 and one other 50.

Since then, including the tour to UAE, he has scored 883 runs in 16 matches with four tons.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Tom Westley is currently on 250*, having had another very fine season

Would imagine his name is one of those in the hat

[Mat]

Would like to think Clarke will get a look in too if there's a middle order spot going. Maybe needs one more season but the boy is top class.

[guildfordbat]

Some Surrey supporters think / fear the third spinner's spot for which Zafar Ansari was pencilled in before his further recent injuries may now go to Somerset's Jack Leach.

[alfie]

Tom Westley is currently on 250*, having had another very fine season

Would imagine his name is one of those in the hat

Picked a good time to make 250. You'd think he'd at least be up for discussion.

To be honest I haven't a clue who they will pick for the Bangladesh trip ; though , barring injury or abstentions , I'd imagine all those who played at The Oval - except Vince , presumably - will be on the plane. They must surely take a spare opener ; but I am not sure that means they want to ditch Hales just yet . As Gooseberry says , it took Hales a while to settle into ODI ; and I fancy they will want to give him a bit more to see if he can make a go of the long game.

That third spinner spot looks up for grabs. Ansari seems to have an unfortunate habit of getting injured at the wrong time...

[Corporalhumblebucket]

I'd be a bit surprised if Ansari tours this winter - he's lost so much time due to a succession of injuries.

[LondonTiger]

For the test squad we perhaps have:


Certainties (barring injury):

Cook, Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Anderson, Broad


Probables:

Hales, Buttler, Rashid


This would then leave perhaps four or five spots likely to be two batters (including someone who opens) a third spinner and one or two extra seamers. No-one is really making much of a case for travelling as an opener - perhaps Bell-Drummond in D2, while Vince and Ballance would be looking at each other and the runs being scored in D2 by Westley with alarm. Third spinner would have been Ansari but lack of cricket probably puts the kibosh on that. ~Mark Wood is making a case for travelling while finns recent injury may put a crimp in his chances.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Lawrence Booth saying they'll take Liam Dawson as third spinner

What a truly horrible selection that would be

[JDizzle]

Lawrence Booth saying they'll take Liam Dawson as third spinner

What a truly horrible selection that would be

England picking a spinner with a mediocre county record, better known as a batsman at that level? Surely not.

[jimbohammers]

Lawrence Booth saying they'll take Liam Dawson as third spinner

What a truly horrible selection that would be

Yeah a real 'truly horrible selection'. Bats, bowls and is a great fielder. You've watched him once and because he got a bit of tap you think he's a bad player.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

No jimbo - more the fact I don't want our third spinner being one who has only 12 wickets at an average of 48 this season

Leach, Ansari and Batty all far better options as the third spinner imo

[LondonTiger]

The leading wicket taking spinners in D1 are:

Leach 44 @26 in 12 games
Rayner 42 @21 in 10 games
Batty 40 @28 in 14 games
Rashid 29 @33 in 9 games.


I would argue that Rashid has been playing for England when Yorkshire have had the best spinning conditions, but equally it is fair to say that his bowling has been mixed for us.

[Gooseberry]

Dowson neither bowls well enough nor bats well enough to justify a place IMO. Id be iffy anbout Ansari as a bits and pieces cricketer but Dowsons inclussion really seems to smack of just wanting a left arm option regardless of whether its Samit Patel or someone with even less on their CV.

Someone obviously beleives he has the potential to be better and sees enough about him to be worth investing in. And to be fair Im not a massive fan of selecting on county stats alone, but his england appearances havent exactly set the world on fire either.
With talk of Habib going as well as a potential opener I cant help thinking if they want a part time spinner and a back up opener why not one of the guys who performed both those roles for the Lions?

Ali is not a specilist spinner. Rashid would struggle to justify inclussion on his bowling alone. Taking a third option whos even worse and cant bat above 8 doesnt really solve any problems for me. Of course you can only select spinners who actually exist, and this does just highlight what a dearth of specialist spinners and wickets to encourage them, there are in the county game now.

Its come to something when people are looking at someone previously held up as an example of mediocre county workhorses badly selected by England (Battys record is pretty grim in the caps he was given) as a better option than Dowson. Leach gets a mention but only through having one good season of county cricket bowling like a shopping trolley ratehr than a wheely bin, and he really cant bat for shine so wont be considered oftr the limited overs sides because they have to bat to 12th man now

Selecting players because they are the least worst option is never great. I already feel both Ali and Rashid could be argued into that category. Ansari isnt exactly a magic bullet either.

Still if the biggest concern we have about the squad is the third choice spinner then things could be more worse.

[LondonTiger]

Still if the biggest concern we have about the squad is the third choice spinner then things could be more worse.

Would be good would it not? Certainly better than worrying about who will open and the makeup of the middle order.

[alfie]

When I look at the figures quoted above , I am moved to ask : Why does nobody ever seem to come on to champion the cause of Rayner ? (I've never seen him and wouldn't have a clue but some on here must know a bit about him...are those figures just lucky or can he really bowl ?

[James100]

Alfie - only seen a little of Rayner but he strikes me as the kind of bowler who wouldn't make the step up to international cricket very well (though certainly a good bowler to have at county level). Accurate, but doesn't spin the ball much—doubt he'd take many wickets against international batters who are more able to work the good balls for ones and twos.

My side for the Winter would look something like:

Cook
Robson
Root
Moeen
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes (wk)
Rashid
Woakes/Wood
Broad
Anderson

Squad players: Woakes/Wood, Ansari (if fit), Leach (if Ansari's not fit), Hales, Ballance, Finn

Woakes has earned the right to start the series, but Wood's the kind of bowler who does well on the subcontinent. If he goes well in the warm up matches, I'd be tempted to bring him straight into the side.

[JDizzle]

Guess I am the only one who was reasonably impressed with what we saw from Dawson yesterday then? Got some nice loop and drift on it, and looked to give it a decent rip (England measure the revs on all the spinners at Luffbra, this will definitely come into their thinking). Line was a bit off, but there is something to work with.

Moeen averaged 34 and 38 in the CC in 2013 and 2014, so he was hardly setting the world alight. He was picked because they thought he had more potential to trouble international batsman than, say, an Ollie Rayner. Think they are thinking the same thing with Dawson.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Sorry JDizzle he didn't impress me yesterday I'm afraid. Had some decent flight, but thought he was far too erratic in line and length (something Rashid has improved imo). Would imagine Kohli and co would be licking their lips if he lined up to bowl at them in Mumbai or wherever.

I think this 3rd spinner taken needs to be a specialist one, which is why I would err towards Leach (or Batty). We have two spinners who can do the whole spin well enough coupled with their batting thing...think the one next in line needs to be a specialist.

Of course there's nothing stopping them taking 4 spinners.........

[guildfordbat]

When I look at the figures quoted above , I am moved to ask : Why does nobody ever seem to come on to champion the cause of Rayner ?   (I've never seen him and wouldn't have a clue but some on here must know a bit about him...are those figures just lucky or can he really bowl ?

Hi Alfie - I've seen Rayner once or twice. Very tall bowler who seems to slowly drop the ball down rather than spin it much at all. Can certainly be effective on his day (often when it's against Surrey!) but, until this season when to be fair he appears to have been more consistent and gained a regular place in the Middlesex side, quite a few off days as well.

Not my idea of a Test bowler although, given the limited choices available, I probably need to relax my criteria.

[JDizzle]

Sorry JDizzle he didn't impress me yesterday I'm afraid. Had some decent flight, but thought he was far too erratic in line and length (something Rashid has improved imo). Would imagine Kohli and co would be licking their lips if he lined up to bowl at them in Mumbai or wherever.

I think this 3rd spinner taken needs to be a specialist one, which is why I would err towards Leach (or Batty). We have two spinners who can do the whole spin well enough coupled with their batting thing...think the one next in line needs to be a specialist.

Of course there's nothing stopping them taking 4 spinners.........

Depends what they want from the third spinner though. If they plan on playing three spinners, then perhaps a specialist might be more adequate. However, if he is back up for Rashid/Moeen then you'd want a 'like for like' replacement to not affect the balance too much.

Thought Dawson's line was a bit erratic, but length was was decent enough. And I think Rashid gets a bit too much praise sometimes, purely because he is a leggie. Still averages 38 in ODIs since the start of 2015. Hardly setting the world alight.

Basically, I am not condemning Dawson on the basis on one performance. Certainly when we currently have an inconsistent spinner who has played 30 Tests! I'd rather seen someone with the potential to develop than going back to Batty to be honest.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Batty is a much better bowler now than when he played for England before - but tbh I can't see the point of picking him again this late in his career.

I note that Ansari is again missing from the Surrey squad for tomorrow's Div 1 cc match due to a back injury.

[guildfordbat]

Batty is a much better bowler now than when he played for England before - but tbh I can't see the point of picking him again this late in his career.

I note that Ansari is again missing from the Surrey squad for tomorrow's Div 1 cc match due to a back injury.

Evening Corporal - one point might be wanting to have the best bowlers to have the best chance of winning the current series.

[Jetty]

I hope we play only 2 spinners. The reserve spinner being a proper spinner in case one of them turns up sick. The seamers are capable of reverse swing and cutters etc

[alfie]

Batty is a much better bowler now than when he played for England before - but tbh I can't see the point of picking him again this late in his career.

I note that Ansari is again missing from the Surrey squad for tomorrow's Div 1 cc match due to a back injury.

Evening Corporal - one point might be wanting to have the best bowlers to have the best chance of winning the current series.

That is an attitude I tend to share : think England slip up at times by looking to the next Ashes series etc instead of focusing on the job in hand : as perhaps against Pakistan just recently ? Retaining Vince for The Oval when it might have been safer to , say , recall Bell for a one-off to shore up a wobbly batting lineup ? I realise that is an argument on which we will all differ but serves as am illustration of what I mean.
And of course you do have to think ahead ; but I am a firm believer in selecting the best team for the job in hand at least 99% of the time.

Whether Batty is the man for the job I couldn't say. Since we will be there in a couple of days I might come and have a look at him later this week if the weather is fine and herself allows me time off from shopping in London

[Gooseberry]

Moeen averaged 34 and 38 in the CC in 2013 and 2014, so he was hardly setting the world alight. He was picked because they thought he had more potential to trouble international batsman than, say, an Ollie Rayner. Think they are thinking the same thing with Dawson.

If Dawson were viewed as a legitimate option to solve the problem of the opening partner for Cook for a home summer where it was felt that they could get away without having a proper spinner, then I could understand his selection along the same lines that Ali got his chance.
Unfortunately hes a number 8 at best (OK thats where Ali bats now but ...)
That England are still trying to pretend that they have turned Ali into a legitimate first choice full time spinner and that he doesnt hold his place with his batting is an indication of just how poor the alternatives are.
Saying someone else is equally as rubbish (just without the batting excuse) isnt going to convince me that they should be selected, or at least that their selection should be a matter of joy if there really isnt a btter option.

[JDizzle]

Moeen averaged 34 and 38 in the CC in 2013 and 2014, so he was hardly setting the world alight. He was picked because they thought he had more potential to trouble international batsman than, say, an Ollie Rayner. Think they are thinking the same thing with Dawson.

If Dawson were viewed as a legitimate option to solve the problem of the opening partner for Cook for a home summer where it was felt that they could get away without having a proper spinner,  then I could understand his selection along the same lines that Ali got his chance.
Unfortunately hes a number 8 at best (OK thats where Ali bats now but ...)
That England are still trying to pretend that they have turned Ali into a legitimate first choice full time spinner and that he doesnt hold his place with his batting is an indication of just how poor the alternatives are.
Saying someone else is equally as rubbish (just without the batting excuse) isnt going to convince me that they should be selected, or at least that their selection should be a matter of joy if there really isnt a btter option.

Except Sam Robson opened the batting the summer Moeen made his debut. And Moeen batted 6. So the bit about Cook's opening partner is kinda/totally irrelevant.

Moeen was picked in 2014 because of his potential as a spinner. I don't think, albeit I don't know, he was picked because he was in England's best 6 batsmen at that time. The fact is England don't have a spinner banging on the door. Batty would be a backward step for me (and he never comes across that well to me, which may bias me slightly!), and I haven't seen much of Leach. Rayner I don't think is an international cricketer. Why not pick a bloke with a bit of raw ability in Dawson and try to mould him on tour in the sub continent?

[wisden]

I'd take Batty as the 3rd spinner...hard tour for spinners, Indians are good players of spin, and you want your 3rd spinner to know their game well in case of injury at the 23rd hour, and you get drafted in 10 mins before the toss.. nothing fazes batty these days, sure i;'m not his biggest fan, but for me he goes as the 3rd spinner

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

4th hundred of the county championship season for Ben Duckett today - clearly an immense talent...does he get a spot on the plane?

[wisden]

No.. for me he dosen't make this trip, certainly not in tests anyway...maybe the ODI leg sure...but if he starts next season in the same form, then he will certainly be in the mix for a test spot

[guildfordbat]

Sorry if I missed this when I was away but when is the tour party expected to be announced?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Sorry if I missed this when I was away but when is the tour party expected to be announced?

Think there is a selectors meeting tomorrow - so I expect soon

[Gooseberry]

No.. for me he dosen't make this trip, certainly not in tests anyway...maybe the ODI leg sure...but if he starts next season in the same form, then he will certainly be in the mix for a test spot

Whittaker was watching him the other day ...talk is of limited overs chance. making the test squad really would be "a thing".

[wisden]

well then yeah for me he defo goes in the ODI squad, I'd put him at 4 in place of Morgs and hand Root the captaincy

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Why does there seem to be angst in the media towards Morgan for not deciding whether he will go to Bangladesh yet?

This is a place where ISIS threatened Australia causing them to pull out, and then they still carried out an attack on westerners the day Australia were meant to be being presented or something in Dhaka

I'd steer well clear if I were a player

[KP_fan]

Morgan refuses to go to Bangladesh

if he doesn't change his mind.....he aught to be banned for 3 years from all form of international cricket

[JDizzle]

20 civilians were killed in a terrorist attack in Bangladesh this year. I'd say a player has every right to say they don't want to tour if they don't feel safe.

Piers Moron suggesting there is just as likely to be a terror attack in the UK as Bangladesh is plain ridiculous.

[KP_fan]

20 civilians were killed in a terrorist attack in Bangladesh this year. I'd say a player has every right to say they don't want to tour if they don't feel safe.

Piers Moron suggesting there is just as likely to be a terror attack in the UK as Bangladesh is plain ridiculous.

1) how many were killed in unfortunate London bombings in tube / trains?...50+
no nation boycotted any tours


2) How many have been killed in various attacks in paris & Nice in the last 12 months ?....200+

was the euro football boycotted by any nation or player? and France is the most likely nation to be struck by terror attack ( and Germany too perhaps)

it would be deemed discriminatory if they dump Bangladesh in this hour when it needs the international support....and should result in an immediate and substantial ban

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

KP_F - you've changed your tune from when Australia decided not to go last year........

https://www.606v2.com/t60680-australia-in-bangladesh

[JDizzle]

I'm not really sure what you are on about with nations boycotting the Tour. The ECB have said it is going ahead. It is up to players to decide if they are going.

There have been 10+ incidents of terror attacks in Bangladesh claimed by either Daesh or Al-Qaeda in 2016 alone. Not on the same scale of the horrific incidents in Europe we have seen, but it is troublesome. Not to mention the direct threats made against visiting cricket teams to Bangladesh in the past, as Olly mentions. I don't believe the ECB would sanction this tour if they didn't believe it to be 100% safe, but Morgan has been close to terror attacks in India and Bangladesh before, and I would attach no blame to him whatsoever if he chooses not to go. Purely on cricketing reasons you can argue that he would not be able to give 100% whilst worried about the backdrop and also no body should be forced to go somewhere if they feel in danger.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

....I don't believe the ECB would sanction this tour if they didn't believe it to be 100% safe, but Morgan has been close to terror attacks in India and Bangladesh before, and I would attach no blame to him whatsoever if he chooses not to go....

Sadly nowhere is 100% safe.  The risk to this particular tour may be small but I guess it is probably not minuscule.

[alfie]

Getting a feeling Morgan won't tour. Can't blame him ; and I don't think it is a disaster anyway as it will give Root a chance to have a go at leading and make space for Bairstow in the XI...and no reason why Morgan cannot resume his post later.
As Strauss says - reasonably enough in my view - anyone vacating a spot does give someone else an opportunity : this is a fact rather than a threat to anyone though I see some people (not on here) are casting it as an example of ECB treachery
With the ODI squad I think there is always enough rotation that I can't see any harm resulting from one or two players missing a tour. The Test team is a little different as there are at least two or three places very much in dispute at present...but again , I'd be astonished if more than one player came in and immediately made a strong case for continued tenure ; and if just one does - well there's one spot settled and not before time...
Squads next week , is it ?

[wisden]

Buttler's the ODI vice captain, so if Morgan dosent go, then surely Buttler captains the side in Morgan'a absence?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The piece by Paul Newman in the Daily Mail on Eoin Morgan today is an utter disgrace

[JDizzle]

Hales and Morgan will miss the tour. Whether Hales would have toured with the Test side anyway is moot now.

Buttler to captain the ODI side. Squads announced Friday. Hameed and Duckett/Bairstow/Billings to benefit you'd think.

[Jetty]

What about India, there are terrorist threats there as well. Will they go?

[Sponsored content]