England in Bangladesh and India - The Winter Tours thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

A bit early, but with squads due to be announced next week thought I'd start a thread to collate all winter tours news...

Firstly it appears the Bangladesh tour will go ahead despite security concerns. I for one am glad of this, gives England a chance to acclimatise to Asian conditions against an improving Bangladesh outfit (especially as England have no planned tour matches in India)

Secondly - it appears Haseeb Hameed will be getting the nod for Bangladesh according to Nick Hoult - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2016/08/29/england-plan-to-call-up-teenage-opener-haseeb-hameed-for-banglad/

Peoples initial thoughts on that?

[VTR]

England's gameplan is clearly to only take wickets in the last over before each break

[KP_fan]

its been good batting.....and the quality of bowling...just moderate........Rashid gets one...but he doesn't give it a rip like Mishra or Yasir.....juts puts it there.....same with Ali.....he flights and dips it......but  unlike the Indian or lankan spinners who give it far more rip/ revs.

It's just the pitch...that is so helpful that they are still getting something out of it......Batty is even worse than Rashid / Ali....even fewer revs on the ball.

Years of putting it there in unhelpful English conditions......has taken the edge out of him completely.....he won't play much after this in the next 6 tests.

In the absence of spinning capabilities.......reverse is the next best thing on offer on such dry / scruffy pitches...and anderson should add some teeth when he is in by T2 in India

[alfie]

Hmm...anyway I think I'll claim that wicket.

Still going to be hard work after tea...but you'd think Bangladesh would need a substantial lead to counteract the problem of having to bat last.

Will worry about India when that series comes around in a few weeks...

[alfie]

Incidentally I see the problem that was generally foreseen before the series is already manifesting itself : while Moeen and Rashid have each taken wickets they are also both going at rather more than three per over - profligate in the context of this match , and in comparison with the main Bangladeshi spinners (and Batty)
Early yet but this will be a problem unless they can take wickets at a reasonable rate ...

[guildfordbat]

Incidentally I see the problem that was generally foreseen before the series is already manifesting itself : while Moeen and Rashid have each taken wickets they are also both going at rather more than three per over - profligate in the context of this match , and in comparison with the main Bangladeshi spinners (and Batty)
Early yet but this will be a problem unless they can take wickets at a reasonable rate ...

Hi Alfie - last night my hope - intended to be sensible and reasonable - for today was that Batty would bowl about 20 overs, keep it dry (as his Aussie coach Di Venuto says at Surrey) and have a return of around 1/40 whilst Rashid and Moeen would have a combined analysis in the region of 4/100 from about 30 shared overs. That would have set us up usefully for a first innings lead.

Still time today to get the wickets I was looking for but we do need to keep it tighter and frankly bowl better.

Whilst I agree with much of KP_f's assessment of England's bowling (so far) today, as you might expect I wouldn't be in such a rush rush to write Batty off on this tour.

[guildfordbat]

And there's the wicket for Batty!

His bowling's been a bit on the short and slow side today but that was in a good spot and quicker. Decent take by Bairstow as well - sure this will jinx him but he does seem to be improving behind the stumps.

Valuable and impressive knock by Tamim. We wanted him back in the hutch.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Need to use Woakes/Broad/Stokes a bit more to keep it tight imo - can't just rely fully on the spinners

[alfie]

Hi guildford
Your man Batty seems to be doing ok. Game still pretty even I think.

I see some stuff on cricinfo contrasting economy rates between the teams...but when I check the records I see that after 59 overs England were 172/5 to Bangladesh 177/4 : not much difference !

Think Mushfiqur is the key wicket now...as you say , Tamim (who seems to like playing England ) was a good scalp to take.

Think this game is going to go the distance...

[James100]

Feel like Woakes and Broad have been under-bowled. Bangladesh are much better players of spin and just because it's a spinner's pitch, doesn't mean you forget about your strengths.

[alfie]

Feel like Woakes and Broad have been under-bowled. Bangladesh are much better players of spin and just because it's a spinner's pitch, doesn't mean you forget about your strengths.

Maybe. But there doesn't seem to have been much happening for the seamers in this match : suspect they'll have a few overs seeking reverse now but in this heat Cook won't want to flatten them. Might let them loose at the tail if they can get to it...

[alfie]

Sounds as if England were a bit unlucky then as a review fails on "umpires call" - when Moeen was batting Dharmasena was raising his finger every other delivery
Maybe he has decided to rein it in a bit now...

[alfie]

Starting to get away a bit in this last hour : that run rate is becoming alarmingly healthy at nearly five for the last ten overs. Think England really need a wicket here before the close or they could be looking at a nasty deficit...

[guildfordbat]

Sounds as if England were a bit unlucky then as a review fails on "umpires call" - when Moeen was batting Dharmasena  was raising his finger every other delivery
Maybe he has decided to rein it in a bit now...

Alfie - I'm finding it very difficult on this wicket to predict where the ball is going, both on height and extent of movement. I can understand Dharmasena keeping his finger down for Woakes' review - I thought it was actually going on to miss leg peg. Mind you, as you say, Dharmasena hasn't helped things or himself by the way he started off in this match.

[alfie]

It is tricky I know (I don't really enjoy umpiring myself !) but ideally you want umpires to be consistent so both sides know where they stand...trouble is , when an umpire has several "out" decisions reversed on review , human nature suggests he is going to become a bit more conservative...which can be a bit tough on the team bowling second...
Not going to get into a drs discussion ; it is never going to be perfect and we just have to accept it for what it is.
As even India are apparently going to , at last

[VTR]

England strike late in the session again! Just about evens things up I feel, vital wicket and good to see one of the seamers taking it

[alfie]

Big wicket there for Stokes !

As you say , VTR , just about evens now. New ball early tomorrow - even if the quicks don't get much from it I fancy Batty and Moeen might like the harder ball...

[KP_fan]

--BD should take some lead from here.....

anything between 50-100 run lead Eng is ahead...given the 4th inning context of the match 
above 100 BD starts becoming favorite

--BD...while they have competed hard.....everyone except Haque had a start...none of them converted it into a decisive blow
the game will have an exciting 4th inning 5th day finish in any case.

--On Batty my point......any FC spinner ...if you give him 30 overs on this pitch is likely to get 2-100...that does not win you  match.

--On Eng in general...on one hand their struggle against BD on one hand is heartening for India......on the other...they are getting really good match practice in similar conditions and will come to India an improved side as a result
Good tour planning by Eng 

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Bangladesh just about shading it at the moment - but that late Stokes strike brings England back into it - does anyone know if the Bangladesh tail is short? Rashid should enjoy bowling to them anyways (cutting off a tail one of his best attributes for Yorkshire)

England probably didn't bowl as well as they'd have liked - will need to bowl better first session tomorrow

[Gooseberry]

Olly ...bangladesh have solid bats to 8 then not a lot. So theres still potential for a decent lead or for them to get rolled out for loose change.

It does look like the hard ball is important for the spinners on both sides.
Moeen looked like he was going to revise my opinion of him with a corking first over not just in results but in actual good balls.

[KP_fan]

India agrees to usage of  DRS for the Eng series

[msp83]

Followed the game on TV during the last session. Bangladesh is finally coming together as a test side. They aren't too far away from a collapse even these days and it can very well happen in this game as well, but they will certainly show some fight against any opposition at home. They would need to keep having lively tracks where their spinners can get into the game. They still don't have the flat track bowling capabilities, but they are coming along well.
Tamim Iqbal, who has tempered his test batting style to a more disciplined approach of late, yet again had some success, scoring 78 valuable runs, the highest score of the test so far. He was more or less in control throughout his innings, before being undone by a quicker one from Batty. Mahmudullah also played well before he got out, and when he and Tamim were together after 2 quick strikes from Ali, England were really getting desperate.
But England kept their discipline, wickets eventually came. Bangladesh ended the day at 221-5 at stumps, still 72 behind.
Had skipper Mushfiqur Rahim not been dismissed minutes before stumps by Ben Stokes, it would very much have been Bangladesh's day. His wicket for 48 means both sides are even at the end of day 2. Shakib is still there, and looked as busy as ever. Sabir Rahman, on test debut, has earned his test call-up through some good batting performances in ODIs. Young Mehedi Hasan Miraz can bat, and is considered an all-rounder. So if Shakib can get going in the morning, Bangladesh might just be able to manage a first innings lead of sorts.
But England are just a few overs away from the 2nd new ball. The ball was doing more for spinners when it was new. Although the lower middle order can make runs, there is no experience in the remaining batting unit other than Shakib. If they get Shakib early, then England can hope to run through the Bangladesh lineup.
England would be hoping to run through the rest of the lineup for another 40-50 runs and take a small first innings lead and then bat sensibly and busily to set up a difficult 4th innings chase for Bangladesh. At worst they would hope to restrict Bangladesh's first advantage to around 20-30.
Bangladesh on the other hand would be hoping Shakib and co can extend the innings and go pass the England first innings score of 293, and hope to build a lead of at least 50. Batting last won't be easy on this track.

[KO-KING]

did anyone else see stokes's gesture when waiting for Woakes to Rahim Review Decision, the mans a child, should be fined, used to be a huge supporter of stokes, he needs to sort his behaviour out, didn't shakib get like 6 months ban for a similar gesture few years ago..

Game so far evenly poised to an extent, but really Bangladesh needs 350 to counteract the final innings, no way can they chase over 200 last on this pitch, it took a massive innings from tamim to bring them here.

So I think England with that wicket of Rahim is 60/40 ahead, as always Shakib is the key for Bangladesh, he needs to add 50 odd to his tally with support from the 2 debutants.

If bangladesh dont match Englands score or even pass it by a significant way, England will be heavy favourite again

[alfie]

Hmm. This game has a few twists and turns...

Not altogether surprisingly , Bangladesh folded up this morning : but three wickets in the last few minutes before lunch has left England's second innings in disarray...anyone's guess where this goes from here.
Only got in to see the England wickets so I have to accept cricinfo opinion that the home team's collapse was largely due to some daft shots...but batting against the spinners looks tough right now. Though Joe Root really should have been a little more patient in the circumstances - he won't be proud of that shot. The trouble with having him at three is this possibility of losing most of the true class in the lineup so early ; hopefully that middle order can bail them out again - but it certainly isn't a given. Game on.

[KP_fan]

by the look of scorecard....fall of 11 wickets today so far 85 runs or so.....every run is precious ..Eng should somehow get the lead to 150

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

If we can get a lead of 200 that should be enough...

[alfie]

Well they have got it to 150...thanks to Stokes and Bairstow

Gingers Rule , OK ?

Still work to do.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Exceptional fifty from Stokes

[Gooseberry]

Alfie...early wickets were a balance of poor execution to good balls and in alis case sheer bad luck. Some sharp catching to, its good to see bangladeshis new breed have all round professionalism and skills.

TMS noted that in the last year of tests englands 6th wicket has averged in the mid 80s now, and the 7th in the 50s.
Theres no exageratting just how important their lower order batting has been and just how poor the top 4 have been regardless of selections.
When you consider theres two genuine england greats in there as well its even more baffling as to how they as a unit have managed to be quite so bad. It cant just be blamed on selections, they are running out of alternatives and noone can tell me that a 19 year old with 20 first class games and an inability to gwt the ball to the boundary is going to singlehandedly change that overnight.

In this test there is some excuse from the conditions which really favour spin with the new ball. Its been the same for both teams.
There will be calls for changes but Duckett as a minimum needs another game. You could muck about and stick him to 4 but that would tie england to developing habeeb as the long term opener...and i think they rightly see duckett as ahead in development.
Moving bairstow to 4 will get touted, but that doesnt really change much other than adding pressure to him.

Whatbl would be nice is if one of them could just do what they are paid for and make runs.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Bairstow chops on for 47, lead is 234

[JDizzle]

You could see that coming from Stokes unfortunately. Whether it was tiredness or just feeling that he needed to move the game along, he'd just become a bit ragged in the past few overs. Still, magnificent knock - a potential match winner.

[Born Slippy]

Great review by Bangladesh to get rid of Rashid - pad before bat. Always seem a bit harsh on the batsman those though - it's clearly not going to hit the stumps in reality as he more or less middled it off the bat but that's the way the rules work.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

This is an excellent test match, you'd think England are favourites from here (especially as Bangladesh are now looking likely to have to score the highest innings of the match last)

I'll be setting my alarm for 5am tomorrow to watch definitely

[guildfordbat]

This is an excellent test match, you'd think England are favourites from here (especially as Bangladesh are now looking likely to have to score the highest innings of the match last)

I'll be setting my alarm for 5am tomorrow to watch definitely

You have learned well, grasshopper.

[alfie]

Well now I had to go out so missed the last session...but it seems to have gone much as hoped for : a lead of 270 -300 really ought to be enough. England owe much to the two Gingers but that deep batting really is a strength of this outfit , and has been for a while.

I see guildford has had enough of the underperforming top four

What can be done ? Cook remains the obvious number one but needs a partner - who probably isn't Duckett though it is early to be fair. I do not like Root at three : not that he can't do it but I just feel he is (a) better at four and (b) too much risk when he remains the engine room of the team to send in so early. Unless a reliable four is around (?) I'd sooner have a "third opener" and leave him at four. Personally I'd have liked to see Borthwick trialled at three but for this tour the permutations are limited :

1 Hameed opens Duckett to four . 2 Hameed at three ( probably the best?) 3 Ansari ? Extra bowler ; but is a bit of a punt or 4 Buttler ; at four ? Not in a million years...

For now I'd prefer to give Hameed a go in Test two , probably at the expense of Ballance ...but I'd be thinking hard before India and maybe wishing I had a couple of other options on board...

Never mind India for now : still a Test ( a very good Test! ) to win and if they can do it without Jimmy and with minimal input from Cook Root and Broad it will be a good success. But they will still need to to get it right with the ball on day four ; big day for Batty , I suspect.

To end. : a salute to Stokes Who said he'd be useless in Asia ?

[KP_fan]

BD missed two moments to have some ascendancy:

1) This morning when they  collapsed in a heap instead of getting a lead of atleast 50

2) and then letting them get on to 220ish ( not yet finished) after having them 60-5

Both times Stokes turned it around...who I had a couple of seasona back  rated as the next genuine allrounder after the big-4 of 1980s and early 90s....... barring a brief flutter from Flinotff.

(and I think woakes is the next Kallis...albeit a poorer version)  

and if they include Butler in the 11....then their middle and lower -middle order gets even more solid.

Barring a miracle inning of 140 from someone ....I don't see how BD will get out of this honestly.....

Collectively the Eng team too good for them and will be a hard nut for India to crack.....now that they are getting intense match practise in spinning conditions

[guildfordbat]

...

I see guildford has had enough of the underperforming top four
...

Hi Alfie - think that's goose rather than me.

Also saw little of today's play but we've clearly benefitted from strength in depth. I would also mention that Batty normally delivers more in the opposition's second innings - hoping so for tomorrow.

[Hammersmith harrier]

It's been a top class start to the tour from Stokes so far, has shown supreme mental fortitude after 'that over' in the T20 final and he seems to be delivering on his promise all round at last.

[msp83]

The wicket of Mushfiqur Rahim on day 2 just at the stroke of stumps, for me that has been the biggest moment of the game. The man who did it for England? Ben Stokes. Then the biggest single batting contribution of the match? Tamim Iqbal, Bairstow and Ali, all had their moments, but it was Stokes again, who has played the innings of the match yet again, 85, the best score of the game so far, coming from a team position of 60-5, with the game on the balance.
The batting depth has helped England, some pretty poor shot selection from Bangladesh batsmen have helped them, but the man who really turned it around for them has been Stokes!
Really superb performance. And those are the moments when you would forgive his general silliness and stupidity on the cricket field when it comes to interpersonal interactions with the opposition.......

[Gooseberry]

...

I see guildford has had enough of the underperforming top four
...

Hi Alfie - think that's goose rather than me.

Also saw little of today's play but we've clearly benefitted from strength in depth. I would also mention that Batty normally delivers more in the opposition's second innings - hoping so for tomorrow.

5 Runs added by England's second and third wicket partnerships in this match - the lowest for them in any Test. Those wickets added 0 and 3 in the first innings and 1 each in the second innings. Their previous lowest from those two wickets was 12 on three occasions, two of those in the 19th century.

2005 Last time England lost their first three wickets for less than 30 runs in both innings of a Test - against South Africa in Centurion. They were three-down at 21 in the first innings and 28 in the second innings of this Test. This is their first such instance in a Test in the subcontinent.

49 Balls faced by Alastair Cook in this Test - his third-least in a match in Asia. The two instances of him facing fewer balls than this in a subcontinent Test have both been in Sri Lanka.

[alfie]

...

I see guildford has had enough of the underperforming top four
...

Hi Alfie - think that's goose rather than me.

Also saw little of today's play but we've clearly benefitted from strength in depth. I would also mention that Batty normally delivers more in the opposition's second innings - hoping so for tomorrow.

Oops...realized this morning I had tagged the wrong poster (had returned from an enjoyable evening at my cricket club involving a quantity of quite nice red wines so the slip is perhaps excusable ? ) In any case the sentiments expressed re the top order are probably some we currently all share...though what can be done about it might occupy a few pages of discussion !
I do hope your assessment of Batty's potential for second innings success is accurate , guildford... an estimate that is possibly not shared by the esteemed goose to any great degree
Whether it be Batty or one of the other spinners , England will be hoping someone puts in a good performance on Sunday ; as Bangladesh have shown a lot of fight in this match and are unlikely to just lie down in their second innings. England are surely favourites now , but not yet out of sight. Really has been a good Test Match.

[msp83]

Bangladesh would have won this test had they not played the last 3 overs before each break!!!

[msp83]

Imrul, who started it all, at it again a second time, as he got out in the penultimate over before lunch for 43 to put England ahead. Bangladesh need exactly 200 more to win, with 8 wickets standing.
Had they been 1 down, England would have had not the most comfortable lunch.......

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Kayes and Mahmudullah just playing dirty hacks and slogs and getting lucky out there so far

[guildfordbat]

Morning / evening folks - only joining today's play now so in no position to make any proper judgment. However, my feeling from what I've seen in earlier days of this track is that from here 8 wickets should be more in reach than 200 runs.

[msp83]

Bangladesh's best test batsman is gone, as England and Batty successfully review against Maminul's not out call. He goes for 27, and Bangladesh 103-3.
If Bangladesh were to create history here, either Tamim or Mominul should have played a special innings, both have failed, and now England should rap it up sooner rather than later.
The likes of Shakib are capable test batsmen, but now there is not a lot of batting quality left in the lineup as such. Shakib is a stroke maker and sticking around is not going to be his way. The Shakib method may not quite succeed here, and there is no body to left to hold the innings together. And unlike England's the Bangladesh lower order is pretty useless with the bat.
Think they would be left to wonder about getting a few selection calls right at the end. Nassir or Mosaddek should most certainly have played this test. Could have come in for either Sabir or one of the seamers.

[msp83]

And interestingly, Shakib ahead of skipper Mushfiqur.......

[msp83]

Old man Batty on the charge as Bangladesh are disintegrating....... Mahmudullah the latest to go, yet another review but this time not successful for the batsman.......

[guildfordbat]

Msp - many a good tune played on an old violin.

[alfie]

Test continues to be intriguing ; that last wicket of Shakib rather puts it England's way but with Mushfiqur still there I won't quite call it game over yet...

Was certainly going the way of the home team until Batty chipped in with those two vital wickets earlier in this session. England will be grateful for drs .

[guildfordbat]

Still fancy England but game definitely on at tea. Just over 100 or 5 wickets needed for victory. Could yet go into the 5th day.

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