Aviva Premiership - Round 2

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Table:




Fixtures:

Friday 9th September

19:45 Worcester Warriors v Gloucester Rugby   BT Sport
20:15 Sale Sharks v Harlequins  

Saturday 10th September

15:00 Bath Rugby v Newcastle Falcons    
15:00 Leicester Tigers v Wasps    BT Sport


Sunday 11th September

15:00 Bristol Rugby v Northampton Saints
15:00 Exeter Chiefs v Saracens    BT Sport



Previews

Yet again Gloucester feature in the Friday night televised fixture. Having capitulated last week, after playing so well for 50 minutes, they will be seeking an 80 minute performance as they take the short trip to near neighbours Worcester. The Warrioirs were game gainst a misfiring Saracens at twickenham last week, but never really threatened and like their visitors ran out of steam in the last 30 minutes. With their absence list unlikely to recede any, the home team will have to rely on spirit and determination against a side with more class - but a fragile core. Gloucester should have too much ability for the Warriors, but it is easy to foresee another implosion. If Warriors can keep this tight they can prey on Glaws nerves - but do they have the firepower to score the points when needed?

Friday evening concludes in Salford as two sides have been castigated by either the coaches or the fans for poor performances meet. Main difference of course is that Sale lost while Harlequins won. Friday nights at home usually see Sale fired up and usually victorious. It will need a much better performance than they saw last week from the forwards, but there is every chance that they will be too organised for a Quins team that seemed strangely lethargic. Quins fans will want to see much more from their backs, starting with skipper Care showing the verve they are used to.

Saturday starts at the wreck where hosts Bath entertain a Falcons team who also won last week. Both teams struggled for attacking fluency last week, and both sides could see major changes in personnel. Todd Blackadder will be looking at the physio's room with some trepidation due to the volume of injuries suffered last week, while Dean Richards is almost famous now for rotating his team for away fixtures. Even short of certain players, and with their issues at 12, on 2015 form Bath would win this game with some ease. That form has not been seen for a while though and Falcons fans will believe they can cause an upset. In the end it coudl well come down to which team has the individual who creates something from nothing. Sinotti v Roku, Joseph v Goneva if you will.

The M69 derby (less sniggering from Saints fans at the back please) will see both teams looking for more of the good stuff they showed last week, and much less of the bad and the ugly.  Leicester spent 50 minutes showing all the frailties of execution that bedeviled them in the big games last season. Not wanting to take anything away from Gloucester who showed exemplary hands and support running in that spell, it could be argued that Tigers gifted 3 of the tries with two interceptions (Tait and Betham) and Manu's crass attempts to charge out of the line. Defence coach Scott Hansen will be drilling the big man all week it is to be hoped. Meanwhile Wasps showed some good invention in the backs but looked a little light of firepower up front, especially at the breakdown. They will need to see a big improvement in that area if they are not to be over-run by tigers, while the home team will need to improve their support running and just play with a little more nous rather than trying to force everything.

On Sunday we will see what may be the first AP match at Ashton Gate, the lastest groundshare for premiership new boys Bristol. Having played about as well as they could have hoped at Twickenham, yet lost, they host a Saints team smarting from a home defeat in Round 1. Unlike Bristol, it would be hard for anyone to say Northampton played well, yet they still managed to secure the LBP and their defence was strong. Saints fans will hope that DoR Mallinder gives them the midfield they desire and that the pack fronts up. They were seriously poor last week. Saints will need to put in a big performance this week and if they play anything close to their ability they will be too strong. Come up short on that though and Bristol will look for the upset.

Sunday's televised game gives us a repeat of last seasons Premiership Final. Exeter looked strong up front at the Ricoh, but seemed to struggle for fluency in the backs. Everything seemed very direct and was meat and drink for the Wasps defence. Chiefs certainly have the forwards to put the champions under pressure, but may need to play a more territorial game if they want their first win of the season. Despite being some way under par against Worcester, Saracens still won easily, demonstrating their strength and overall class across the pitch. Even if Exeter can gain the upper-hand up front they have that fearsome defence that will force errors from even the best teams and enough players who can thrive on the counter-attack to score the tries needed for victory. Exeter will look to use their driving lineout which has worked so well against ?Saracens in the past, Saracens will try and make Exeter run from deep.



Predictions:

Gloucester by 7
Sale by 5
Bath by 10
Wasps by 30
Saints by 7+
Sarries by 6

Absolutely shocking. How incompetent, three Wasps players are between the defender and the jumper. Does the referee not understand the concept of obstruction?

Tigers get the kicking they deserve.

formerly known as Sam wrote:How far offside do Wasps have to be at the lineout? Johnson is through the Tigers line when the ball hasn't reached Kitchener. That forces the error and now Tigers look likely to get a yellow for a deliberate knock on.

I missed that. Not very impressed with the ref.

Wasps score from the drive, and they convert to win.

Fair result, Leicester still lacking a leader on the pitch and a coach off it.

Two unexpected results there.

Ignoring the ref you have to give credit to Wasps for their style of play, to come to Leicester and play like they did and score those tries in the style they did is nothing to do with the ref, that's all skill.

Launchbury to captain England, ironically having just won at Leicester, he's looking more and more Johnson - esque.

Taking the lineout Gaskell was coming down as his lifters stepped past him. They were effectively blocking the ball carrier. The ref just didn't police that. Once again Tigers were their own worst enemies. Until we stop the stupid errors we're only mid table quality.

kingelderfield wrote:Launchbury to captain England, ironically having just won at Leicester, he's looking more and more Johnson - esque.

He has to start for england first.

yappysnap wrote:Two unexpected results there.

Ignoring the ref you have to give credit to Wasps for their style of play, to come to Leicester and play like they did and score those tries in the style they did is nothing to do with the ref, that's all skill.

Not just skill. Good game plan and intensity.

Tigers selection was wrong with the bench. As the game broke up we needed Evans and Thacker to come on and make the loose game tell. We tried to out muscle Wasps and it just didn't work as Wasps were just too savvy.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Two unexpected results there.

Ignoring the ref you have to give credit to Wasps for their style of play, to come to Leicester and play like they did and score those tries in the style they did is nothing to do with the ref, that's all skill.

Not just skill. Good game plan and intensity.

Tigers selection was wrong with the bench. As the game broke up we needed Evans and Thacker to come on and make the loose game tell. We tried to out muscle Wasps and it just didn't work as Wasps were just too savvy.

That's an ironic statement when nearly all of us on mass have said wasps might struggle physically this season having signed too many "skilful" players with no size...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Two unexpected results there.

Ignoring the ref you have to give credit to Wasps for their style of play, to come to Leicester and play like they did and score those tries in the style they did is nothing to do with the ref, that's all skill.

Not just skill. Good game plan and intensity.

Tigers selection was wrong with the bench. As the game broke up we needed Evans and Thacker to come on and make the loose game tell. We tried to out muscle Wasps and it just didn't work as Wasps were just too savvy.

That's an ironic statement when nearly all of us on mass have said wasps might struggle physically this season having signed too many "skilful" players with no size...

In the back line they haven't recruited much size. Up front, when you can bring in Hughes and Johnson off the bench that's an awful lot of size and mobility not to mention experience to call upon.

Yeah true

Also...I heard Elliott Dalys defence was rock solid. Was that true?

Puts England in a position where their two leading skilled outside centres (Joseph and Elliott) are strong defensively....which is great!

formerly known as Sam wrote:Taking the lineout Gaskell was coming down as his lifters stepped past him. They were effectively blocking the ball carrier. The ref just didn't police that. Once again Tigers were their own worst enemies. Until we stop the stupid errors we're only mid table quality.

I hear you. There's not a lot missing from their squad really so with a fair run with injuries and you'd have to think they should be challenging. However I do question the leadership on the field - for me it should be Slater all day long - and equally for all the glorious heart and integrity of Cockers, I just feel the Tigers need a better rugby coaching brain to guide them. I appreciate that's a tough call and that there's not many coaches of that ability kicking around, but compared to a Baxter or obviously a McCall he just doesn't cut it. Absolutely top bloke, red green and white through and through but just lacking the strategic detail necessary.

Daly defence was far from rock solid.

doctor_grey wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:Being a supporter of Glaws is a bit like being a Medieval monk into self-flagulation!

Is that some type of auto-eroticism?

If only I derived some pleasure from watching Glaws

But I'm not going to complain anymore as it could be a lot worse!

Dunno I missed the first half, just watching it back. Gaskell is very impressive now he's beefed up and concentrated on the second row.

Kingelderfield, it's been a bug bear of mine for a while that we don't get the referee onside and looking at what we need to. Tom Youngs is just to quiet and honest for that. Cockers position is under threat. He has two years left (including this season) and I think after that he'll move upstairs and we'll see a change at DOR. I'm also not sure about our tactics, I think Mauger is giving too much creative responsibility to our players and we need some more pre meditated play just to start the momentum and for us the revert to at times.

Welly wrote:Daly defence was far from rock solid.

Ah I see...

Recwatcher16 wrote:Very harsh red card at Worcester on the ex Bath player.

Fully expect the Bath forwards in this pack in the match against Falcons to play a tight lineout and mauling game simply due to a lack of breakdown specialists.
If the ball is spun out wide, Banahan and Roko will be doing a fair bit of clear out work along with young Clark, who is not exactly small either.

Newcastle played a smart pressure game last season and Bath were lucky to scrape a win. Looking close again this time.

That is my first and last prediction on Bath matches this season.......

Awesome performance from Bath vs a development club from up North

TightHEAD wrote:Awesome performance from Bath vs a development club from up North

Don't you mean the Bath 3rd team vs Falcons 1st team?

I think your boys had an off day, best to get it out of the way early.

I'm not sure mate....its amazing, I was very hopeful this season...more than normal yet that one performance has shattered any hope.

Same of rubbish....

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'm not sure mate....its amazing, I was very hopeful this season...more than normal yet that one performance has shattered any hope.

Same of rubbish....

What do you think needs to change Geordie? Is it Richards or more fundamental?

Newcastle have changed a lot from last season and there's a number of young players and players without AP experience. They'll take time to fully adapt.

Ah I just don't know mate...

Good preseason, good performance v Sale...we were physical and aggressive.

Go to Bath and we look ponderous, unstructured, totally lacking in aggression and pace in the pack....

PS I'm not taking away from Bath by saying that.

Many falcons fans are getting restless with Dean...but I genuinely thought we had turned a corner.

Maybe this is just a bad day at the office...and next week we'll get right at Tigers.

I said many times over the last few seasons...we lack real genuine ball carriers. Players that can make a difference. This season we have Chisanga, Fonua, Orr, Cooper (latu is injured) yet not one of them was in Bath??? Why??

doctor_grey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:SAINTS TEAM TO PLAY BRISTOL
Aviva Premiership Rugby Round 2
Ashton Gate
Sunday, September 11th, 2016
Kick off 3pm

15 Ahsee Tuala
14 Ken Pisi
13 George Pisi
12 Luther Burrell
11 George North
10 Stephen Myler
9 Lee Dickson
1 Alex Waller
2 Dylan Hartley
3 Kieran Brookes
4 Courtney Lawes
5 Michael Paterson
6 Tom Wood (capt)
7 Teimana Harrison
8 Louis Picamoles

16 Mikey Haywood
17 Campese Ma’afu
18 Paul Hill
19 Sam Dickinson
20 Jamie Gibson
21 Nic Groom
22 Harry Mallinder
23 Ben Foden

I just cannot understand what Mallinder is doing, a Myler, Burrell, Pisi midfield is a known and well tried failure, it didn't work last season; it didn't work last week.

A Myler, Mallinder, Burrell midfield is a known success, it worked last season and it worked last week when Foden went off. It give kicking options either side of the scrum and a massive boot for taking penalties into touch, Myler makes good ground, Mallinder has a very accurate howitzer of a boot and will generally make 15-20m more. That is a big factor when putting sides under pressure pinning them back into their own half.

It seems that Mallinder Snr. does not trust his son to play 12 and views him as a utility back.

Good that Harrison is back, he made instant ground last week, something that was missing for the first 60 minutes.

I assume Foden is still recovering from his knock and that is why he is benched.

I cannot believe that Paterson is playing on marks out of 10, last week he was about a 2. Craig or Dickinson are much better options.

Nic Groom can count himself unlucky, he brought pace and direction to the play last week hen he came on and scored two tries, what else goes he have to do to get a starting berth.

I am beginning to think we are in for a very mediocre season already, just more of the muddled thinking we had last year. If so I think we need to be looking for a new DoR next year, if not sooner.

Head up.  Only one game and the line-up for another.  Let's see how things develop.  The Burrell-Pisi axis of mediocrity will not last.  Jim has done well for us and let's give him some slack.  Maybe Prince Harry (he is still only a lad, mind) picked up a bit of a knock last week and needs a little reduced workload this week.  

Maybe Burrell will come good as a 12.  Maybe Pisi will recapture the fountain of youth.  Maybe we will see real dynamic attacking Rugby tomorrow.  OK.......maybe we will see the tooth fairy.    

Maybe I will return to the 23 year old 17.5 stone quick and athletic No.8 I used to be, instead of the broken down 16.5 stone lump that struggles to walk more than 1/2 a mile and needs to take more pills than he can count............................... no the tooth fairy is more probable........................... and my rejuvenation is more likely than that back line working well or them receiving good set piece ball with Patterson at lock.

Two unexpected results there.

Ignoring the ref you have to give credit to Wasps for their style of play, to come to Leicester and play like they did and score those tries in the style they did is nothing to do with the ref, that's all skill.

Welly wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Launchbury to captain England, ironically having just won at Leicester, he's looking more and more Johnson - esque.

He has to start for england first.

Very true, but I believe he's the better man meaning he and Otoje should start first dibs and others would need to push for positions, meaning Otoje could play 6 if another lock forced the issue.

Kruis has performed well enough in a England shirt to keep it IMO.

Him and Itoje work well together for Club and country TBF.

From what you're saying about the team selected and playing style Geordie it sounds like Falcons targeted the game as one to lose, try for a losing bp and move on. Bad call in the end but hopefully they can move on from it.

Yappy,

Thats my thoughts aswell. I genuinely think we expected to lose so just go and try to keep close.

If that's the case then Dean needs to go!

You play to do your best every game. Fans paid money to go down there and watch that today!

Welly wrote: Kruis has performed well enough in a England shirt to keep it IMO.

Him and Itoje work well together for Club and country TBF.

Fair call, I appreciate last season was spectacular to say the least, however competition is ferocious in the 2nd row and back 5 as a whole. So when you consider the likes of Barrow, Launchbury, Lawes, Hughes among'st so many others, then realistically positions are all under pressure.

Kruis's position is most at threat I would say.

However Launchburys +ves are lessened by the fact he's not a lineout master.

I thought our back 5 were superb against Tigers.
I know we haven't got a replacement for G. Smith & Hask is injured, but Thompson, Jones & Young have fantastic work rate and are all very mobile.
Wins against Exeter & Tigers bode well for Wasps with the likes of Beale,Le Roux,Eastmond & Hask to come back in.

Well I picked Bath for the win, but I never saw that result coming.  What happened to Newcastle?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I thought our back 5 were superb against Tigers.
I know we haven't got a replacement for G. Smith & Hask is injured, but Thompson, Jones & Young have fantastic work rate and are all very mobile.
Wins against Exeter & Tigers bode well for Wasps with the likes of Beale,Le Roux,Eastmond & Hask to come back in.

Just thinking around the Wasps squad, their depth and ability, IF they can 'gel' and perform (early days but I'm not sure DC looks happy double handling with Gopperth?) and so get the results, then this could be their season.

I'll say again, the depth and quality of their squad is very impressive.

Therefore I'am expecting plenty of changes for next week against Bristol (who themselves have a very tough game today against Saints) who must be considered one of the 'weaker' teams.

I'm going to jump the shark here.....I know its an early morning, early season call but I'm predicting Wasps take the premiership 2016/17

There you go that'll put the mockers on them!

Kingelderfield predicts WASPS 2016/7 Aviva Premiership Winners

I can see them falling away later int he season.

Whilst Sarries do have a large squad we saw last season how they fell away during the 6Ns and Wasps (& Exeter) will not be losing that many players in comparison.

I think the comment was made yesterday that all of our 3/4s playing yesterday will probably be available during the internationals.

Yes it's only 2 games but a lot of pundits were predicting a slow start for Wasps as we have recruited heavily. It's started pretty well.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I can see them falling away later int he season.

Fair call, especially given recent history, however if you look at the squad / recruitment / depth and then think around the number of international 1st line call ups (compared to others especially Saracens) then it looks like Young Dai has done good.

Apart from Haskell (whose obviously out injured) the others (Launchbury, Daly, Mullen, Hughes & Taylor) are only England squad members and even if they did all make the England 23 there is the depth to cover them. Of course injuries could be the spanner in the works but they could effect any side, but again with the depth and good rotation you can mitigate against them.

Yeh I don't see Wasps winning the league.

Sarries for me are still well above the rest.

The international period has LV cup games taking up weeks as well so it won't be as big a loss for sarries.

If Wasps can avoid a number of injuries to their pack I think they'll be in the top four come the end of the season. Not sure anyone will be able to get past Sarries in the playoffs though.

Early days yet, I expect Sarries, Exeter, Wasps, Tigers and Bath to all be there or there abouts by the end. A lot may come down to European form too and who's battling on two fronts.

Tigers are prob 2 players short of where they need to be really to play this game plan.
- Number 8
- Physical 15/Utility back.

hopefully Cilliers, Logo and Rizzo will be back to full power as well.

Hopefully we either get a top 8 or get lucky like we did with Veainu.

I'm struggling to put my finger on what's going so wrong for Tigers. Tait aside none of the players are having glaringly bad games (though McGuigan did himself no favours yesterday). There's a lot of talk about a new 8 but we had big carrying 8's last season and McCaffery outplayed all of them, he's probably been our best forward this season as well.

It might be time to go back to the drawing board and look at our attacking structure as it is not clicking currently. Partly this is down to our centre combo where neither Manu nor Betham look anywhere close to match sharp. Toomua can't arrive soon enough.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'm struggling to put my finger on what's going so wrong for Tigers. Tait aside none of the players are having glaringly bad games (though McGuigan did himself no favours yesterday). There's a lot of talk about a new 8 but we had big carrying 8's last season and McCaffery outplayed all of them, he's probably been our best forward this season as well.

It might be time to go back to the drawing board and look at our attacking structure as it is not clicking currently. Partly this is down to our centre combo where neither Manu nor Betham look anywhere close to match sharp. Toomua can't arrive soon enough.

I think Toomua will do wonders for Tigers attack. Wouldn't surprise me to see him at 10 every so often especially when Tigers need a bit more physicality there.  

But it is not doom and gloom.  Tigers always make that annoying second half of the season run.

Just listening to bbc radio Devonian....very very windy and EJ is in attendance.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the two 10's on display.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'm struggling to put my finger on what's going so wrong for Tigers. Tait aside none of the players are having glaringly bad games (though McGuigan did himself no favours yesterday). There's a lot of talk about a new 8 but we had big carrying 8's last season and McCaffery outplayed all of them, he's probably been our best forward this season as well.

It might be time to go back to the drawing board and look at our attacking structure as it is not clicking currently. Partly this is down to our centre combo where neither Manu nor Betham look anywhere close to match sharp. Toomua can't arrive soon enough.

I think Toomua will do wonders for Tigers attack. Wouldn't surprise me to see him at 10 every so often especially when Tigers need a bit more physicality there.  

But it is not doom and gloom.  Tigers always make that annoying second half of the season run.

Do the Tigers have more injuries than other sides? Does seem that way to me.

A good try by North? His opposite man (Edwards) is a Newport boy and bypassed the net whilst growing up. He must be doing well now to be starting for Bristol in the premiership.

Saracens 2 try's ahead 0 - 12

Saints running away with it.