Aviva Premiership - Round 2

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Table:




Fixtures:

Friday 9th September

19:45 Worcester Warriors v Gloucester Rugby   BT Sport
20:15 Sale Sharks v Harlequins  

Saturday 10th September

15:00 Bath Rugby v Newcastle Falcons    
15:00 Leicester Tigers v Wasps    BT Sport


Sunday 11th September

15:00 Bristol Rugby v Northampton Saints
15:00 Exeter Chiefs v Saracens    BT Sport



Previews

Yet again Gloucester feature in the Friday night televised fixture. Having capitulated last week, after playing so well for 50 minutes, they will be seeking an 80 minute performance as they take the short trip to near neighbours Worcester. The Warrioirs were game gainst a misfiring Saracens at twickenham last week, but never really threatened and like their visitors ran out of steam in the last 30 minutes. With their absence list unlikely to recede any, the home team will have to rely on spirit and determination against a side with more class - but a fragile core. Gloucester should have too much ability for the Warriors, but it is easy to foresee another implosion. If Warriors can keep this tight they can prey on Glaws nerves - but do they have the firepower to score the points when needed?

Friday evening concludes in Salford as two sides have been castigated by either the coaches or the fans for poor performances meet. Main difference of course is that Sale lost while Harlequins won. Friday nights at home usually see Sale fired up and usually victorious. It will need a much better performance than they saw last week from the forwards, but there is every chance that they will be too organised for a Quins team that seemed strangely lethargic. Quins fans will want to see much more from their backs, starting with skipper Care showing the verve they are used to.

Saturday starts at the wreck where hosts Bath entertain a Falcons team who also won last week. Both teams struggled for attacking fluency last week, and both sides could see major changes in personnel. Todd Blackadder will be looking at the physio's room with some trepidation due to the volume of injuries suffered last week, while Dean Richards is almost famous now for rotating his team for away fixtures. Even short of certain players, and with their issues at 12, on 2015 form Bath would win this game with some ease. That form has not been seen for a while though and Falcons fans will believe they can cause an upset. In the end it coudl well come down to which team has the individual who creates something from nothing. Sinotti v Roku, Joseph v Goneva if you will.

The M69 derby (less sniggering from Saints fans at the back please) will see both teams looking for more of the good stuff they showed last week, and much less of the bad and the ugly.  Leicester spent 50 minutes showing all the frailties of execution that bedeviled them in the big games last season. Not wanting to take anything away from Gloucester who showed exemplary hands and support running in that spell, it could be argued that Tigers gifted 3 of the tries with two interceptions (Tait and Betham) and Manu's crass attempts to charge out of the line. Defence coach Scott Hansen will be drilling the big man all week it is to be hoped. Meanwhile Wasps showed some good invention in the backs but looked a little light of firepower up front, especially at the breakdown. They will need to see a big improvement in that area if they are not to be over-run by tigers, while the home team will need to improve their support running and just play with a little more nous rather than trying to force everything.

On Sunday we will see what may be the first AP match at Ashton Gate, the lastest groundshare for premiership new boys Bristol. Having played about as well as they could have hoped at Twickenham, yet lost, they host a Saints team smarting from a home defeat in Round 1. Unlike Bristol, it would be hard for anyone to say Northampton played well, yet they still managed to secure the LBP and their defence was strong. Saints fans will hope that DoR Mallinder gives them the midfield they desire and that the pack fronts up. They were seriously poor last week. Saints will need to put in a big performance this week and if they play anything close to their ability they will be too strong. Come up short on that though and Bristol will look for the upset.

Sunday's televised game gives us a repeat of last seasons Premiership Final. Exeter looked strong up front at the Ricoh, but seemed to struggle for fluency in the backs. Everything seemed very direct and was meat and drink for the Wasps defence. Chiefs certainly have the forwards to put the champions under pressure, but may need to play a more territorial game if they want their first win of the season. Despite being some way under par against Worcester, Saracens still won easily, demonstrating their strength and overall class across the pitch. Even if Exeter can gain the upper-hand up front they have that fearsome defence that will force errors from even the best teams and enough players who can thrive on the counter-attack to score the tries needed for victory. Exeter will look to use their driving lineout which has worked so well against ?Saracens in the past, Saracens will try and make Exeter run from deep.



Predictions:

Gloucester by 7
Sale by 5
Bath by 10
Wasps by 30
Saints by 7+
Sarries by 6

Exeter playing with a strong wind but Saracens have scored two tries and lead 12-0 in the first quarter.

Sarries look to be a force.

can't tell if Saints are going to be really good as the season goes on or if Bristol are really going to struggle.

JP Doyle has just told Saracens to stop celebrating so vociferously.

Sarries won a turnover, and several players rushed in to pat their man on the back. Doyle said he didn't want to see that while opposition players were still on the floor. He told Barritt he'd reverse the penalty if it happened again.

Barritt looked genuinely astonished.

Hartley drop away from a first half bonus point.

Another interesting referee moment.

Slade cut inside Wigglesworth and the scrum half ended up tripping him. Doyle asked the TMO to check while the game went on, and he reported back that there was nothing wrong.

When Exeter won a penalty, Doyle confirmed with the TMO there was no problem but saw the incident himself and decided it was a deliberate trip. The TMO suggested watching it in real-time but Doyle decided on a yellow card.

Rugby Fan wrote:JP Doyle has just told Saracens to stop celebrating so vociferously.

Sarries won a turnover, and several players rushed in to pat their man on the back. Doyle said he didn't want to see that while opposition players were still on the floor. He told Barritt he'd reverse the penalty if it happened again.

Barritt looked genuinely astonished.

Me too - they weren't doing anything wrong and were no threat to the player on the floor ... JPD is a complete plank.

Typical of JPD - decides which team he likes for the day and then referees accordingly - I've seen him give a red card before for a perfectly legal tackle because he says he 'thought' he saw something out the side of his eye - the guy is a muppet.

ref's have been way to card happy

Heaf wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:JP Doyle has just told Saracens to stop celebrating so vociferously.

Sarries won a turnover, and several players rushed in to pat their man on the back. Doyle said he didn't want to see that while opposition players were still on the floor. He told Barritt he'd reverse the penalty if it happened again.

Barritt looked genuinely astonished.

Me too - they weren't doing anything wrong and were no threat to the player on the floor ... JPD is a complete plank.

I actually think Doyle's had the best half I've seen from him in long while. He's asserted himself as required.

That fact is like any good side Sarries play on or over the edge challenging the officials to make decisions. If they don't like the decisions then they shouldn't challenge the officials with their chosen method of play.

As for 'celebrating' the turnover. There's definitely a thin line between celebrating (Doyle suggested they could all go to the half way line in future if that's what they want to do) and provocatively intimidating the opposition when they're still on the floor in the immediate area. I agree with Doyle, we don't need unsportsmanlike behaviour in the game.

Saracens for all Exeter's pressure, look very comfortable and Lozowski has been very good, not flamboyant but clinical.

Clear trip if possibly instinctive in my book. also from where I sit Sarries are getting away with lying all over the ball at the breakdown and also holding Exeter players on the ground. Another ref would have whistled sarries out of it by now. someone like the ref for the edinburgh game who tolerated nothing on the ground.

Too many handling errors by Exeter.

Lots of pressure from Sarries which Exeter don't appear able to handle.

I don't think Slade looks like a 10 which is a bugger. Maybe a 13 or even a 15 but not the acute skills required to play 10.

3 - 15 to Sarries

kingelderfield wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:JP Doyle has just told Saracens to stop celebrating so vociferously.

Sarries won a turnover, and several players rushed in to pat their man on the back. Doyle said he didn't want to see that while opposition players were still on the floor. He told Barritt he'd reverse the penalty if it happened again.

Barritt looked genuinely astonished.

Me too - they weren't doing anything wrong and were no threat to the player on the floor ... JPD is a complete plank.

I actually think Doyle's had the best half I've seen from him in long while. He's asserted himself as required.

That fact is like any good side Sarries play on or over the edge challenging the officials to make decisions. If they don't like the decisions then they shouldn't challenge the officials with their chosen method of play.

As for 'celebrating' the turnover. There's definitely a thin line between celebrating (Doyle suggested they could all go to the half way line in future if that's what they want to do) and provocatively intimidating the opposition when they're still on the floor in the immediate area. I agree with Doyle, we don't need unsportsmanlike behaviour in the game.

Saracens for all Exeter's pressure, look very comfortable and Lozowski has been very good, not flamboyant but clinical.

You could be right - but I'll just stick to not liking Doyle

Sarasen's pulling away BP scored.

The Saracen's coaching is and will be the backbone of England's successes for the foreseeable future.

No chance Saints make top 4 again this year.

Big mistake by Sarries to play the restart that didn't go 10 and then give away a series of penalties and ultimately a try - uncharacteristic error when they could have had a scrum on half-way instead.

duplicate

5 minutes ago Doyle issued a team warning against Sarries. You'll never guess what? Oh yes they've not given away another pen since!!! Their not daft are they.

Exeter looking so much better with Steenson at 10.

Ouch! That has got to hurt 13 - 34 to Sarries.

For all Baxter's attempted 'We're not the ones under pressure' obfuscation. Well their definitely under pressure now.

Really tough call for Baxter now, does he continue selecting Slade at 10 or does he go back on the tried and tested? He could actually consider Devoto as his future man and stay with Steenson in the interim. Either way unless Slade radically reinvents his game I just can't see him doing the 10 thing.

Sarries doing what Sarries do. Clinical team that are so in sync that playing together is second nature. They could do the double double.

Slade was brilliant at centre last season and Steenson is a quality 10. It's baffling that they're sticking with Slade at 10 to start, get him in the centres if he must start. Likewise Mallinder at Saints, trying to shoehorn a player in to a position doesn't work.

Slade was a ten that moved to centre no? He played there last season and has been given a chance this season. In two very tough games back to back which I don't think was the wisest choice. Steenson isn't getting any younger so it's logical to look to bring through Slade at 10 but to throw him in against Sarries after a tough day at the office vs Wasps is unlikely to have helped his confidence. I didn't see the game but we all know the kind of pressure playmakers are under vs that Sarries defence.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Slade was a ten that moved to centre no? He played there last season and has been given a chance this season. In two very tough games back to back which I don't think was the wisest choice. Steenson isn't getting any younger so it's logical to look to bring through Slade at 10 but to throw him in against Sarries after a tough day at the office vs Wasps is unlikely to have helped his confidence. I didn't see the game but we all know the kind of pressure playmakers are under vs that Sarries defence.

Good call. I can see what Baxter was trying to do, but right now to us armchair generals it looks like he's being too clever clever. Time will tell.

It wasn't that long ago Slade was being touted as a future England 10 with the heft of Farrell, and the light touch of Ford. He's got a long way to go to show he deserves that kind of billing but I wouldn't write him off on the strength of those two games.

As far as England 10s go, Alex Lozowski has looked good, and it'll be interesting to see whether Wasps made the right choice to let him go. So far, Gopperth has been playing out of his skin for them, and Cipriani has had some good spells, so the jury is out for now.

Thought Slades passing was the best on show, had a couple of duff kicks and fell off the tackle in the first 5 but thought he did well. Wasn't as if Exeter didn't play well up to a point and then fell apart with some individual catches (mainly from LCD it seemed). Saracens defence was it's normal brilliant even if the ref was quite kind to the amount of pens given away near their line; but until you're warned they've going to continue to kill the ball if they see a threat quite rightly.

As a Quins supporter I have a rather negative outlook for the season ahead! Not ideal after only 2 games but I see the same problems from last season continuing. Little progression and mostly the same coaching team - who couldn't stop the rot before so how can they this time!

Nice run of games coming up - where I think we would be lucky to even get a loosing bonus point on current form.

Bad tactical kicking between Care and Chisholm really needs to be addressed. While other senior players really need to step up.
Missing Easter in the pack really seems to be an issue.

Unless there is a 'clicking moment' at some point this season we will be looking at bottom half of table and in the relegation scrap.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Whilst Sarries do have a large squad we saw last season how they fell away during the 6Ns and Wasps (& Exeter) will not be losing that many players in comparison.

I think the comment was made yesterday that all of our 3/4s playing yesterday will probably be available during the internationals.

Yes it's only 2 games but a lot of pundits were predicting a slow start for Wasps as we have recruited heavily. It's started pretty well.

Agree I've been very surprised with how quickly Wasps have started. I thought it would be two losses for Wasps not two wins.

Seems like your backrow cover have been doing very well.


As for Saracens it's interesting that 5 of the tries so far have come from the new signings - 2 for Maitland, 1 for Burger, 2 for Lozowksi.

Now of course contributions aren't just down to how many tries you score but still it shows they are making an impact.

It's very useful to have those 3 seemingly slotting into the Saracens squad well.

Nice to see Spencer get on the scoresheet twice too.

Hope both Spencer and Lozowksi as two young English 9s and 10s have big seasons.

I know we were abject , but if your talking about England...Ford looks on fire....he just controlled the game at a canter.

And Roko surely must be up for a Wing spot. Pace, Aggression, power, defence, and the x-factor to make things happen.

Roko deserves another chance with England this Autumn and I think the Ford, Farrell partnership works well for England, why change that?

Agree, at the moment it must stay Ford, Farrell.

If Ford has his confidence back then he should be backed for England. We know what Farrell brings to the national side and he hasn't played yet for Sarries - It would be great if he hit the ground running too.

I've only seen highlights but it sounds like others put their hands up too - Teo, Simpson, Daly, Launchbury, T.Harrison, Attwood, the above mentioned Roko.

With a Lions season coming up I would really hope that the serious contenders have that at the back of their minds and really push their games to the limits.

Take note Quins players - you need to up your game.

propdavid_london wrote:As a Quins supporter I have a rather negative outlook for the season ahead!  Not ideal after only 2 games but I see the same problems from last season continuing.  Little progression and mostly the same coaching team - who couldn't stop the rot before so how can they this time!

Nice run of games coming up - where I think we would be lucky to even get a loosing bonus point on current form.  

Bad tactical kicking between Care and Chisholm really needs to be addressed.  While other senior players really need to step up.  
Missing Easter in the pack really seems to be an issue.  

Unless there is a 'clicking moment' at some point this season we will be looking at bottom half of table and in the relegation scrap.

Agree with all that. We look clueless at the moment. I pray we suddenly click and play to our potential. I worry the coaches are just doing the same!!

propdavid_london wrote:If Ford has his confidence back then he should be backed for England.  We know what Farrell brings to the national side and he hasn't played yet for Sarries - It would be great if he hit the ground running too.  

I've only seen highlights but it sounds like others put their hands up too - Teo, Simpson, Daly, Launchbury, T.Harrison, Attwood, the above mentioned Roko.

With a Lions season coming up I would really hope that the serious contenders have that at the back of their minds and really push their games to the limits.  

Take note Quins players - you need to up your game.  

Personally I felt Simpson was the weak link in the Wasps side. He was taking far too long to pass, putting Cipriani under all sorts of pressure and his kicking was slow and too long. If Robson had been fit then Wasps could have absolutely destroyed us.

With Guy Thompson playing so well, Nathan Hughes did not advance his cause one iota.

That Wasps back row really hit the ground running - Guy Thompson, Young and Sam Jones were very effective.
Haskell and Hughes have their work cut out - But I still thought that Hughes added something when he came off the bench.
There was a bit of drop in his form at the end of last season but he looked to be winding up.

I agree though that Robson looks to be the form 9 in the first round games and on the Saxons tour. Better than recent performances from the incumbents of Youngs and Care.

I've only just caught the highlights, what do we think of the Worcester red card? Clearly there was no other option but I did feel a bit sorry for the guy as I thought he was going for the fend.

mikey_dragon wrote:I've only just caught the highlights, what do we think of the Worcester red card? Clearly there was no other option but I did feel a bit sorry for the guy as I thought he was going for the fend.

I thought it was a bit harsh Mikey but I think I heard that there a lack of replay in the ground which wouldn't have helped the ref make a decision. I think Worcester had a good chance of winning before that happened. Perhaps I should watch it again though as I've only seen it once!

mikey_dragon wrote:I've only just caught the highlights, what do we think of the Worcester red card? Clearly there was no other option but I did feel a bit sorry for the guy as I thought he was going for the fend.

Where did you catch the highlights?

Luimanu gets a 3 week ban for his red card in the Sale-Quins game.

And Quins A lose 37-26 away to Bristol A. I don't know what to make of that result, on the one hand it's the A league so, meh. On the other that Quins team had Prem players like Lambert, Adam Jones, Jackson Walker and Hopper all starting.

On the plus side, Walker scored apparently a brilliant solo try, so if he's back and on form I'd swap him in for one of Yarde/Visser in a flash.

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I've only just caught the highlights, what do we think of the Worcester red card? Clearly there was no other option but I did feel a bit sorry for the guy as I thought he was going for the fend.

Where did you catch the highlights?

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/video/highlights-worcester-warriors-v-gloucester-rugby-round-2/

Incident from about 2 minute mark. He hits the tackler full in the face with the forearm. Ref and TMO had no choice.

Just keeps getting better doesn't it Yappy!

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I've only just caught the highlights, what do we think of the Worcester red card? Clearly there was no other option but I did feel a bit sorry for the guy as I thought he was going for the fend.

Where did you catch the highlights?

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/video/highlights-worcester-warriors-v-gloucester-rugby-round-2/

Incident from about 2 minute mark. He hits the tackler full in the face with the forearm. Ref and TMO had no choice.

Thanks for the link. Agree with the red. Can't lead with the forearm, though as you said, likely just going to fend off the defender.
Reminds me a bit of this one by Bismarck du Plessis, but not as bad. The referee issued a straight red for the forearm.

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I've only just caught the highlights, what do we think of the Worcester red card? Clearly there was no other option but I did feel a bit sorry for the guy as I thought he was going for the fend.

Where did you catch the highlights?

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/video/highlights-worcester-warriors-v-gloucester-rugby-round-2/

Incident from about 2 minute mark. He hits the tackler full in the face with the forearm. Ref and TMO had no choice.

Thanks for the link.  Agree with the red.  Can't lead with the forearm, though as you said, likely just going to fend off the defender.  
Reminds me a bit of this one by Bismarck du Plessis, but not as bad.  The referee issued a straight red for the forearm.

I watch the highlights via ITV4 every Sunday or Monday. It was definitely a fend, it seems we have another very grey area.

Can't strike with the arm though, and with it being to the chin, not sure there's any other decision he could get to?

You can use an open hand, this though was close to a forearm smash. The only grey part is that if he had been carrying the ball in that arm and hit with the elbow he would be fine. It is still dangerous and reckless though.

propdavid_london wrote:Just keeps getting better doesn't it Yappy!

Dream 150th season so far can not wait for the next game...

Pretty much what others have said. I also said that there was no other option other to issue the red card, but I definitely think he was going to the fend. It was slightly reckless but had the lock forward attempted to tackle a bit low it could have been avoided - so like the 'in the air' issue I think this is now a bit of grey area too.

It was the follow through that did him in slow motion, as the TMO said it looked ok at full speed. But had he not caught the players chin he would have been fine and got away with it, like so many do every weekend up and down this green and pleasant land.

TightHEAD wrote:It was the follow through that did him in slow motion, as the TMO said it looked ok at full speed. But had he not caught the players chin he would have been fine and got away with it, like so many do every weekend up and down this green and pleasant land.

I agree - I recall Martin Corry had a distinctive style when running with the ball & he tended to lead with his forearm. Of course not an offence per se.

Manu Tuilagi normally leads with the fore arm (when he is playing).

propdavid_london wrote:Manu Tuilagi normally leads with the fore arm (when he is playing).

Indeed he does - usually though the arm carrying the ball which is deemed ok. I feel Manu should be penalised for it though.

Manu normally leads the way top the physio room!