Warren Gatland announced as Lions coach

First topic message reminder :

Apparently, according to Ian McGeechan anyway Gatland has been given the job again.

offload wrote:Coming back to this forum after the off season.  Same old shoite, same old hot air, same old pointless "fans" so busy being right and taking themselves so seriously.  No wonder so many decent posters can't be bothered any more.  Shame, used to be worth visiting.

I agree, but this is what happens when sites like this get over policed by Mods who take sides with their fellow Countrymen.

TightHEAD wrote:

offload wrote:Coming back to this forum after the off season.  Same old shoite, same old hot air, same old pointless "fans" so busy being right and taking themselves so seriously.  No wonder so many decent posters can't be bothered any more.  Shame, used to be worth visiting.

I agree, but this is what happens when sites like this get over policed by Mods who take sides with their fellow Countrymen.

Ooooooooooo. Shots fired!

When i doubt attack the mods.

Personaly I blame Gatland for all this.

theslosty wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Hopefully Gatland will leave the majority of Irish players at home.

Thankfully, I doubt Gatland will take many Irish players. The tour will be dominated by English and Welsh and Scotland should have better representation than 2013. Contrary to recent Lions tours, we lack "star" players and it wouldn't be outrageous to select a non-Irish Test XV.

Agreed, I don't see a big Irish contingent, and there are few Irish options at present for the Test XV. Ireland have a pretty consistent quality of player and don't really have weak links in the XV, but it's difficult to pinpoint star names who would be shoe-ins for the Test XV.

Of the current Ireland squad, I rate McGrath, Henderson, SOB (if fit), Murray and Henshaw as likely Lions. I think there are a few potential bolters there as well: Stander, Jackson, McCloskey and Payne spring to mind.

LH Props - Marler, Vunipola, McGrath
TH Props - Cole, Samson, Nel
Hookers - Hartley, George, Best
LH Locks - Itoje, Henderson, Launchbury
TH Locks - Kruis, Gray, Jones
BS Flankers -  Robshaw
OS Flankers - Warburton, Davies
Number 8s - Vunipola, Faletau

Scrum half - Davies, Webb, Murray
Fly half - Farrell, Ford, Biggar
IS Centre - Roberts, Dunbar
OS Centre - Henshaw, Davies, Bennett,
Wingers - North, Watson, Nowell, Seymour
Full backs - Hogg, Williams

10 English Forwards
5 Welsh Forwards
3 Irish Forwards
2 Scottish Forwards

7 Welsh Backs
4 English Backs
4 Scottish Backs
2 Irish Backs

Halfpenny will tour.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37301747

Fatland wrote:He hasn't been suspended for a while. That's a big tick against his name

Ha. That's almost tongue in cheek criticism.

I cannot believe that Gatland would look for a captain other than Warubrton. I think he's buttering up the English press, and Hartley, with this one. He knows the furore that occurs when not selecting a player from a certain country, and with the English gutter press interested in rugby again now that they're successful, there's a potential media storm in the making. By praising him publicly, he gives the impression of it being a close run thing, that he'll decide on the coming season, and that it was oh so close between Warburton and Hartley. The reality, if he's fit and not in dreadful form, is that Warburton is captain of the Lions in 2017, but he needs deputies etc., and Hartley will be one of those.

It's clever. Both appease the English sports press, whilst keeping Hartley onside and not too dispirited. Of course, if Warburton is unavailable due ton injury or poor form, then Hartley becomes a genuine contender for captain as well, but I have little doubt that Gatland has already made his mind up on this one.

reallybored wrote:LH Props - Marler, Vunipola, McGrath
TH Props - Cole, Samson, Nel
Hookers - Hartley, George, Best
LH Locks - Itoje, Henderson, Launchbury
TH Locks - Kruis, Gray, Jones
BS Flankers -  Robshaw
OS Flankers - Warburton, Davies
Number 8s - Vunipola, Faletau

Scrum half - Davies, Webb, Murray
Fly half - Farrell, Ford, Biggar
IS Centre - Roberts, Dunbar
OS Centre - Henshaw, Davies, Bennett,
Wingers - North, Watson, Nowell, Seymour
Full backs - Hogg, Williams

10 English Forwards
5 Welsh Forwards
3 Irish Forwards
2 Scottish Forwards

7 Welsh Backs
4 English Backs
4 Scottish Backs
2 Irish Backs

Can't see Gatland taking only 6 props and 3 hookers TBH or only 1 BF.

Tipuric will be in before Davies too. May even see Haskell (shudder)

munkian wrote:Tipuric will be in before Davies too. May even see Haskell (shudder)

I've never been a big fan of Haskell, but he was outstanding in the summer and surely deserves to be considered the "form" option at 7 (whether you consider him a true 7 or not). His efforts against Australia were remarkable.

I do think very highly of James Davies though. Cracking group of opensides at Wales' disposal.

Yeah, he's actually become a rather competent flanker, I still think he is a massive tool though.

Will be interesting to see him up against a team that isn't imploding though.

miaow wrote:Ha. That's almost tongue in cheek criticism.

I cannot believe that Gatland would look for a captain other than Warubrton. I think he's buttering up the English press, and Hartley, with this one. He knows the furore that occurs when not selecting a player from a certain country, and with the English gutter press interested in rugby again now that they're successful, there's a potential media storm in the making. By praising him publicly, he gives the impression of it being a close run thing, that he'll decide on the coming season, and that it was oh so close between Warburton and Hartley. The reality, if he's fit and not in dreadful form, is that Warburton is captain of the Lions in 2017, but he needs deputies etc., and Hartley will be one of those.

It's clever. Both appease the English sports press, whilst keeping Hartley onside and not too dispirited. Of course, if Warburton is unavailable due ton injury or poor form, then Hartley becomes a genuine contender for captain as well, but I have little doubt that Gatland has already made his mind up on this one.

Probably doesn't even have to be that fit or on form as discussed from the last tour!

Well, you said it, no one agreed. I guess that was the gist of the discussion.

Some agreed, some Welsh didn't. But even with the distraction of people getting up in arms over a simple comment that post by miaow reflects earlier thoughts that Gatland went in witha set idea and wasn't then swayed by form over a shorter time. The point still stands that we'll take a great squad with really good quality and little drop off between any of them; there is no need to stick with players off form.

Would love for him to go in with an open mind and see what he (and they) can produce.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some agreed,

No they didn't. Nobody agreed. But it's just like you to keep poking, and prodding, until you get your WUM.

Please, stop trolling.

Like I said, Hartley is a good shout for VC and I think Gatland realises that too.

Either he's setting up Hartley for a gentle landing (probably as VC) or he's preparing the ground for Warbuton to realise he won't get the job this time.

The problem for me is that Hartley has a pretty good claim to be the best NH player in his position, whereas Warbuton is much further from that title - although obviously he has a year to get that reputation back.

The interesting thing is that Gatland has been adamant he will not pick overseas players for Wales. Now that he has no such restrictions for Lions selection, let's effectively see whom he would WANT to pick for Wales now that the shackles are off.

Only 10 months of rugby before the final Test match.

Anyway before all this Lions excess, it will be really interesting to see how the AB's go this Autumn;

05 Nov All Blacks v Ireland Chicago

13 Nov All Blacks v Italy

20 Nov All Blacks v Ireland Dublin

27 Nov All Blacks v France

I think Ireland have fantastic opportunities in both tests

munkian wrote:Halfpenny will tour.

WHY? Because he is welsh? or because he on form and the best player in his position?

I agree that if Half penny is fit and on form he should go, but if you are saying that Half penny will tour simply because he is Welsh, then NO he should not go.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some agreed,

No they didn't. Nobody agreed. But it's just like you to keep poking, and prodding, until you get your WUM.

Please, stop trolling.

Not trolling at all and have explained why. I'm not going to be bullied into saying his injury was unfortunate for the Lions.

George Carlin wrote:Either he's setting up Hartley for a gentle landing (probably as VC) or he's preparing the ground for Warbuton to realise he won't get the job this time.

The problem for me is that Hartley has a pretty good claim to be the best NH player in his position, whereas Warbuton is much further from that title - although obviously he has a year to get that reputation back.

The interesting thing is that Gatland has been adamant he will not pick overseas players for Wales. Now that he has no such restrictions for Lions selection, let's effectively see whom he would WANT to pick for Wales now that the shackles are off.

Theres going to be some really strong candidates going. The vc thing could be important; we've seen Jones name 3 or 4 vcs in the squad, basically saying he expects leaders everywhere and they certainly haven't taken a step back with that approach. Gatland strikes me as a coach who dictates to his captains the sort of decisions to make at certain times to avoid a Robshaw uncertainty as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling at all

OK, so if you are not trolling, then why keep on about it by bringing it up again after we have all moved on ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably doesn't even have to be that fit or on form as discussed from the last tour!

There was absolutely no reason for bringing this up again, unless you wanted to keep poking and prodding to get your desired outcome.

majesticimperialman wrote:

munkian wrote:Halfpenny will tour.

WHY? Because he is welsh? or because he on form and the best player in his position?

I agree that if Half penny is fit and on form he should go, but if you are saying that Half penny will tour simply because he is Welsh, then NO he should not go.

Best kicker in the NH if not the world, so he will probably go despite being Welsh if he is fit. If he deserves a starting spot if kickers like Farrell are in the team, is another question.

I will reserve judgement until after the 6N and until I see the squad, if Wales suffer the mediocrity they have in the last couple of years and still provide the core of the squad. I, along with a few million others will be up in arms and it may herald the end of the lions as the public support would not be there. The core has to come from the best side in the 6N whoever that may be, not the players he knows best or the whole "Lion" thing is devalued and there becomes no point or value to the players in being picked.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling at all

OK, so if you are not trolling, then why keep on about it by bringing it up again after we have all moved on ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably doesn't even have to be that fit or on form as discussed from the last tour!

There was absolutely no reason for bringing this up again, unless you wanted to keep poking and prodding to get your desired outcome.

I didn't but moved back to a point that Gatland clearly favoured playing Warburton no matter what. My point being the quality and depth of nh rugby allows much more scope to look at short term form than most teams get. And yes the fit and on form is still the same point. We have no reason to take risks like this and try to get players to play themselves back to form especially around injuries which have taken players out for weeks or more.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

munkian wrote:Halfpenny will tour.

WHY? Because he is welsh? or because he on form and the best player in his position?

I agree that if Half penny is fit and on form he should go, but if you are saying that Half penny will tour simply because he is Welsh, then NO he should not go.

Best kicker in the NH if not the world, so he will probably go despite being Welsh if he is fit. If he deserves a starting spot if kickers like Farrell are in the team, is another question.

I will reserve judgement until after the 6N and until I see the squad, if Wales suffer the mediocrity they have in the last couple of years and still provide the core of the squad. I, along with a few million others will be up in arms and it may herald the end of the lions as the public support would not be there. The core has to come from the best side in the 6N whoever that may be, not the players he knows best or the whole "Lion" thing is devalued and there becomes no point or value to the players in being picked.

Well obviously, you had no interest in the 2005 debacle, when even English pundits admitted that England had deteriorated in the previous 2  6 Nations and Wales won the 2005 Grand Slam, but he still had the gall to select 20 English and even the cheek to select 11 Irish compared to the Grand Slammers of that year only having 10 selections.
As for our 2 year mediocrity we finished 2nd last year and finished on the same number of points as yourself and Ireland the previous year, points difference deciding, and of course we had the pleasure of knocking you out of your own WC, that's how mediocre we've become.

If I'm honest I can't see Warburton touring atm. Unfortunately he's a walking injury and with that, other 7s in Wales have taken their chance to show what they can do. That player isn't James Davies before some of you start... It's Ellis Jenkins - never thought I'd see him break through given the open-sides available at Cardiff but he's surpassed that and is now an international player.

miaow wrote:Ha. That's almost tongue in cheek criticism.

I cannot believe that Gatland would look for a captain other than Warubrton. I think he's buttering up the English press, and Hartley, with this one. He knows the furore that occurs when not selecting a player from a certain country, and with the English gutter press interested in rugby again now that they're successful, there's a potential media storm in the making. By praising him publicly, he gives the impression of it being a close run thing, that he'll decide on the coming season, and that it was oh so close between Warburton and Hartley. The reality, if he's fit and not in dreadful form, is that Warburton is captain of the Lions in 2017, but he needs deputies etc., and Hartley will be one of those.

It's clever. Both appease the English sports press, whilst keeping Hartley onside and not too dispirited. Of course, if Warburton is unavailable due ton injury or poor form, then Hartley becomes a genuine contender for captain as well, but I have little doubt that Gatland has already made his mind up on this one.

Why would Gatland not look for a captain other than Warburton? Warburton is injury prone and not guaranteed his position even if fit. As a captain he is a grand slam winner just like Hartley. Unlike Hartley he has an utterly woeful record against southern hemisphere teams.

Warburton has been a fine player and captain. However currently Hartley must be in prime position. All that could of course change in the Six nations.

the lions squad, whoever is in it, looks really promising. there are two problems for the lions though

- zero preparation time if, for example, saracens are in the AP final again. lots of players will miss the first game, and then its a steady rota of matches.
- Gatland. i do not think he is a good Lions coach. he lacks imagination. he cant surprise. he falls back on strategies that everyone knows inside out, including the opposition.

i think the lions are going to get whipped again by NZ.Gatball is a disaster waiting to happen against NZ players who have played hundreds of games together. gatball is easily neutralised. and NZ will score minimmum 3/4 tries per match.

and i also think the Lions is past its sell by date in its current format. its a goldmine for NZ, Aus and SA, but very hard on B&! players after a 40 week season. I would much prefer a 3 test series with only a couple of touring matches, preceded by 3-4 weeks of Lions training together, and before that, a 2 week proper rest after domestic finals.

You know what will be really interesting? Is if he picks Rory Best. As you remember one the most hugely contentious and controversial initial selection calls Gatland made was leaving out Best. Best later went on tour because Hartley did his usual, but he didn't start in any of the tests after having a bad game in a midweek match.

Anyway the rumour is Best and Gatland hate each other- and actually got into a scuffle once after an Ireland-Wales game at the post-match function. Is it true? I don't know. But if it's true that Best did actually hit Gatland, he's gone up in my estimation for sure

As the current Captain of Ireland, Best would usually be one of five or six players in the running for Captain. I think he would be a really good choice for Tour Captain to be honest. Instead I doubt he will make the plane.

To be honest I don't think it's just Rory Best Gatland has a problem with- he's really dislikes Irish Rugby in general. He was absolutely shafted and betrayed by the IRFU when he was coach. He had the team playing great rugby and on an upward trajectory and looked the be doing a great job, but Eddie O'Sullivan, then his assistant, lobbied to get his job behind his back and he was unfairly sacked. It took years for his career to recover. No surprise why Eddie O'Sullivans nickname is 'Dagger'.

This also lends some credence to what many people in Ireland believed when the team for the third test in 2013 was announced ; that Brian O'Driscoll thing was not a selection decision, but rather a deliberate slight against Irish Rugby. A little bit of revenge on the IRFU. Especially as it was O'Driscoll who he sent out to the press conference the day before selection- an unusual move if he wasn't going to make the team.

In a way, I'm happy he's coach. The less of our players who get picked the less players we'll be missing at the start of next season. If England and Wales provide the bulk of the team our boys will be on the beach while the Lions are getting 40 points put on them

i like a good conspiracy theory notch. and that sounds like a good one. im a believer.

Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean Gatland ain't after us! Of course, as a mod, I would never stir the pot when it comes to the least popular and most successful coach in the NH

Right. Shall we start with a 'vote for your Lions' thread? I will do it, but will these boards dissolve with the wumming?

If Best doesn't get picked its because he's poop, but yeah, go ahead with the conspiracy theories.

mikey_dragon wrote:If I'm honest I can't see Warburton touring atm. Unfortunately he's a walking injury and with that, other 7s in Wales have taken their chance to show what they can do. That player isn't James Davies before some of you start... It's Ellis Jenkins - never thought I'd see him break through given the open-sides available at Cardiff but he's surpassed that and is now an international player.

Feck me, the world must be turning on it's head. but I agree with him.

munkian wrote:If Best doesn't get picked its because he's poop, but yeah, go ahead with the conspiracy theories.

Gatland would likely have decked him as well, more proof that these Irish that are still going about Lions 2013 are full of it.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:If I'm honest I can't see Warburton touring atm. Unfortunately he's a walking injury and with that, other 7s in Wales have taken their chance to show what they can do. That player isn't James Davies before some of you start... It's Ellis Jenkins - never thought I'd see him break through given the open-sides available at Cardiff but he's surpassed that and is now an international player.

Feck me, the world must be turning on it's head. but I agree with him.

Looks as if he's continuing his good form from last year, best 7 in Wales by a mile.

mikey_dragon wrote:Looks as if he's continuing his good form from last year, best 7 in Wales by a mile.

Most people were saying that down there last season as well. They did not want Warburton back in the side at the expense of Ellis Jenkins, I reckon his best chance would be at 6 now.

Congratulations to Jack McGrath!!!

mikey_dragon wrote:

munkian wrote:If Best doesn't get picked its because he's poop, but yeah, go ahead with the conspiracy theories.

Gatland would likely have decked him as well, more proof that these Irish that are still going about Lions 2013 are full of it.

Tell me more!

Well, at least appointing Gatland has peed this person off, one good thing leads to another and all that:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/09/08/stop-moaning-be-spontaneous-and-make-lions-special-again/

LordDowlais wrote:Well, at least appointing Gatland has peed this person off, one good thing leads to another and all that:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/09/08/stop-moaning-be-spontaneous-and-make-lions-special-again/

It's not often I agree with Austin Healy, but I think he's absolutely right. At the risk of moaning...

I agree with Healey that almost everything that made Lions tours unique and distinctive has been taken away. For meit is just a boring and empty experience. Come on, we even know exactly what tactics Gatland will use! We can predict his squad. There's very little of interest about this tour. Even if they win in New Zealand I don't care enough about that to justify the logistical mess. It's not like it would be for me if Ireland were winning against New Zealand, or winning a Rugby World Cup. Its interesting to have these selection debates and I'll be delighted for any Ulster or Ireland guys who make the tour- but honestly I just want to see them come back with no injuries more than anything else.

Healy is right, the Lions need Culling.

Notch wrote: There's very little of interest about this tour. Even if they win in New Zealand I don't care enough about that to justify the logistical mess. It's not like it would be for me if Ireland were winning against New Zealand, or winning a Rugby World Cup. Its interesting to have these selection debates and I'll be delighted for any Ulster or Ireland guys who make the tour- but honestly I just want to see them come back with no injuries more than anything else.

Only Jack McGrath is going. I'll be rooting for him when he sits on the bench.

Notch wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

munkian wrote:If Best doesn't get picked its because he's poop, but yeah, go ahead with the conspiracy theories.

Gatland would likely have decked him as well, more proof that these Irish that are still going about Lions 2013 are full of it.

Tell me more!

Coincidentally I find the worst Irish fans on social media happen to also be Ulster fans - might not be wholly true but just happens to be my view. Always flapping their fingertips Wales are cheats this, Liam Williams did that, etc. Now the focus has shifted back to Gatland and we get some of the above. It's embarrassing.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Notch wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

munkian wrote:If Best doesn't get picked its because he's poop, but yeah, go ahead with the conspiracy theories.

Gatland would likely have decked him as well, more proof that these Irish that are still going about Lions 2013 are full of it.

Tell me more!

Coincidentally I find the worst Irish fans on social media happen to also be Ulster fans - might not be wholly true but just happens to be my view. Always flapping their fingertips Wales are cheats this, Liam Williams did that, etc. Now the focus has shifted back to Gatland and we get some of the above. It's embarrassing.

Oh dear. 

Big catch today, Notch!

I said it was just my view.

Look, it even looks like Rory Best has made peace with Warren Gatland after their bust-up...

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/lions/warren-gatland-the-ideal-man-for-lions-rory-best-35031607.html