Warren Gatland announced as Lions coach

First topic message reminder :

Apparently, according to Ian McGeechan anyway Gatland has been given the job again.

Good to see Best finally talk some sense. Hopefully he can rub off on Keith Wood and Alan Quinlan - those two remind me of Laurel and Hardy when they're commentating on a match that involves Wales. And to think some Irish were playing the "people hate us" card

Rory's "Please Let me Come on Tour!" letter is early.

But then Gat's is a hard man to break down - ya gotta start early.

Notch wrote:To be honest I don't think it's just Rory Best Gatland has a problem with- he's really dislikes Irish Rugby in general. He was absolutely shafted and betrayed by the IRFU when he was coach. He had the team playing great rugby and on an upward trajectory and looked the be doing a great job, but Eddie O'Sullivan, then his assistant, lobbied to get his job behind his back and he was unfairly sacked. It took years for his career to recover. No surprise why Eddie O'Sullivans nickname is 'Dagger'.

The alternative version of the story is that Wazza was fairly stuck in his ways and refused to hire a defence coach*. The senior players lead by Woody were the ones who wanted him gone because of that (and he still shows traits of his way or the high way). It suited Gatland to stick to the theory that he was stabbed in the back (and destroy O'Sullivan's reputation).

For the record, O'Sullivan had the backs playing great rugby. The big improvement was when he came in as backs coach (and Ireland did play some really attractive rugby when he was backs coach - much better than anything we have been served up since).

*The Irish players on the Lions Tour of 2001 saw what benefit a defence coach was and which at that stage was a new innovation.

mikey_dragon wrote:

munkian wrote:If Best doesn't get picked its because he's poop, but yeah, go ahead with the conspiracy theories.

Gatland would likely have decked him as well, more proof that these Irish that are still going about Lions 2013 are full of it.

Em ....

Three years on, he returns to the role for the most daunting trip of his life and he believes the experience he endured in that final week will steel him for the gauntlet of leading the Lions to New Zealand.

“There was a moment (during the third Test in Sydney) when I looked at the TV when I was in the coaching box with 15 minutes to go and I felt like gesturing towards it!” he recalled. “I kept my counsel. It was a tough week that last one.

Would you ever contact Gats and tell him to get over it. I'm peed off of him using 'I dropped Brian O'Driscoll and everyone hates me' as his claim to fame.

I remember that I wanted Gatland gone.  It wasn't a perfect show being ruined by O'Sullivan as far as I remember it.  Maybe it was because of the growls behind the scenes between O'Sullivan and Gatland that Ireland's creative back play seemed to be going to the dogs but that's the tensions I seem to remember as a fan.  

Ireland weren't playing great rugby as I recall - and maybe Gatland was knowingly suppressing any great rugby to show O'Sullivan who was in authority and who called the shots. It seemed he was prepared to see Ireland's attacking potential dry up to prove it.

'Me more important than side', seems to have been Gatland's decision when faced with IRFU displeasure - and he paid for it.

I've heard Woody say that his refusal to hire a defence coach was the crunch point with them. Lots of people say getting sacked by Ireland was the kick up he needed because up to that he was very limited as a coach. Ireland improved big time when O'Sullivan saved his bacon the first time he was appointed backs coach in 1999. Ronan O'Gara said in his biography that Gats had no time for backs.

Your right about him needing to be the centre of attention - thats why he has Warburton as his captain (who wouldn't say boo to a goose) and ignored AWJ for both Wales & Lions, and Paul O'Connell for the last Lions Tour - both have likable personalities and attract far too much attention.

mikey_dragon wrote:Coincidentally I find the worst Irish fans on social media happen to also be Ulster fans - might not be wholly true but just happens to be my view. Always flapping their fingertips Wales are cheats this, Liam Williams did that, etc. Now the focus has shifted back to Gatland and we get some of the above. It's embarrassing.

I'm really sorry you feel that way man. If it helps smooth over this unfortunate contretemps, I think Welsh fans are top class and would love to get to a game over there. The only worry is if there's a big crowd of them they might nick your wallet or make you listen to a haunting yet elegiac ballad about the death of the mining industry. After dark I hear the streets of most towns in the Valleys are stalked by fake tan wearing rugby lads and completely feral male voice choirs. Not my idea of a safe away trip truth be told

mikey_dragon wrote:Good to see Best finally talk some sense. Hopefully he can rub off on Keith Wood and Alan Quinlan - those two remind me of Laurel and Hardy when they're commentating on a match that involves Wales. And to think some Irish were playing the "people hate us" card

Yeah I'm delighted to hear that from Rory. He knows how to play the game- butter Gatland up, get selected, wait for him to let his guard down then... POW! Right in the kisser.

You're pretty spot on tbh Notch!

 It's embarrassing reading some of these posts

Paul O'Connell gives Gats the tumbs up!

Paul O'Connell wrote:"Warren Gatland is suited to the Lions because the Welsh game-plan from previous tours is really easy to pick up, it's really easy to learn. You can spend three days on the training paddock and more or less know the game-plan inside out.
"It's a simple system and I think that suits the Lions. Because it's the end of the season, you can't spend that long on the pitch, you don't have a pile of warm-up matches to learn a complex game-plan.

Nice back handed compliment there from O'Connel...

Getting spicy between the Irish and Welsh already and there's still a long way to go. Gotta the love the Lions.

This Irish obsession with Gatland and therefore Welsh rugby is a little unhealthy. How many years obsessed is this now?


We don't know what sort of tactics Great Gatland will employ yet. Gatlandball seems a bit similar to McCallball, which is also how England play. If Gats has learned anything then he'll get the Lions to play the NZ way so expect a free-for-all at every breakdown. The ref in the Chiefs vs Wales game was one of the worst I've seen so hopefully he'll have them prepared for these awful kiwi ref's who police the game differently to the rest of the world.

I think a lot will depend on who Gats select for the Lions,( the players ) in the Lions squad on how the Lions will play. I do hope he " Gats " pick an even balance squad, and not favour any player who is not the best player in his position.

I do think every body can agree it is far to early to start selecting players right now. The selection can in my opinion only start after 2017 6ns.

So can we give it a rest right now, what with all the bickering between the Welsh and the Irish.

Let it rest for now.

mikey_dragon wrote:This Irish obsession with Gatland and therefore Welsh rugby is a little unhealthy. How many years obsessed is this now?


We don't know what sort of tactics Great Gatland will employ yet. Gatlandball seems a bit similar to McCallball, which is also how England play. If Gats has learned anything then he'll get the Lions to play the NZ way so expect a free-for-all at every breakdown. The ref in the Chiefs vs Wales game was one of the worst I've seen so hopefully he'll have them prepared for these awful kiwi ref's who police the game differently to the rest of the world.

I prefer Murderball to Gatlandball, but it has to said Schmidtball is the best. How are you looking forward to a year of Howleyball?

Love it. Nah not looking forward to another rendition of Howleyball at all fam, it's a real howler.

If only Tim Payne or Andy Goode were coaches, they have the perfect names for it. Unlike Neil De Kock...

yappysnap wrote: Unlike Neil De Kock...

I get it. Because his name sounds like a male chicken

Ulster are looking good this season too #Kissball.

Has anyone considered that 'our Warren' just see's this gig as the uber job interview?

Gatland Lions beat All Blacks and hey presto 'Warren boyo' becomes AB coach.

Gatland Lions beat All Blacks and hey presto 'Warren boyo' becomes AB coach.


 You are joking right?

Chances of that? zero x zero

Exiledinborders wrote:
Why would Gatland not look for a captain other than Warburton? Warburton is injury prone and not guaranteed his position even if fit. As a captain he is a grand slam winner just like Hartley. Unlike Hartley he has an utterly woeful record against southern hemisphere teams.

Warburton has been a fine player and captain. However currently Hartley must be in prime position. All that could of course change in the Six nations.

At his best, he's the best openside playing Test rugby in the NH. No other 7, be that SoB or otherwise, has been as good as Warburton has/was at his best. It's why Gatland was willing to risk his lack of form and possible fitness last time, because he understands the pedigree he has and can attain on the field of play. Other than Dusautoir, I cannot think of anyone who has been as good or better in the NH as Warburton at openside flanker in the last five years.

However, that is just the tip of the iceberg for such a decision. The other reasons include, but are not limited to, the below:

- He has captained the Lions before
- He has won a Lions Tour whilst captaining the Lions before
- He is the longest serving international captain available to the Lions (i.e. still playing for the Home Nations)
- Aside from the Lions, he has captained his country during 2 6Ns titles, 1 GS, 1 WC SF, and 1 WC QF
- He is relatively non-partisan, in that he doesn't have a personality that could rub players up the wrong way, or cause factions (like, say, someone with a less wholesome character). This is good in an environment which appears to be already pre-empting factional lines on the basis of nationality (as every Lions thread since the Third Test in 2013 attests to).
- This wholesome character makes him something of a media darling. When so much of the Lions is reliant on the phony war of the media to garner interest and good publicity, his demeanour is a good selling point for the moneymen.
- More importantly, back to the rugby field, where this demeanour makes him adept at dealing with refs in terms of law interpretation. He is one of the cleanest yet most competitive players I can remember playing for Wales. In NZ, playing a team adept at traversing the thin line between 'the dark arts' and cheating, "management" of the referee will be paramount.
- It is far better to have ice for a captain, rather than the type of fire Hartley brings, where pride and/or the "battle for physical dominance" (i.e. throwing your weight around) can get in the way of decision making, and colour the ref's attitude towards your team. At its worst, it can result in your captain being off the field for ten minutes, or longer. Far better to leave that role to the lieutenants. There are many different types of 'leading by example', and fire and ice are both necessary, but there is one which will be more beneficial to have playing NZ in their own backyard.
- On the topic of leading by example, his workrate off the field seems to endear his teammates to him. They may not like him, they may find him boring, but there is evidently a professional respect for his dedication. This has seemingly rubbed off on a host of players who came through the ranks with Wales with him. If the captain is setting such a high benchmark on and off the field, the likelihood of complacency and controversy declines dramatically: no dwarf chucking. There is little danger of this with Warburton, who- as mentioned- is whiter than white in this regard.
- Gatland knows him very well
- Gatland trusts him very much
- Gatland promoted Warburton into the captaincy of Wales when the openside was 22 years of age
- Openside flanker is generally considered to be a good position to have a captain: not too far from the action like an outside back, not in a position of constant authority and stewardship like 9 or 10, and not with their face in the dirt like the front row. It also, as we saw with Richie McCaw, allows the openside to use their elevated position to get a few passes from the referee when they are treading the aforementioned thin line between cheating and the dark arts.
- There is very little preparation time to get a disparate group of players up the speed in a Lions Tour.
- I could list all the other logistical difficulties facing the Lions, but ultimately the point stands; in a scenario where Gatland has already noted that they need to focus on as much continuity as possible in playing and coaching staff from the Home Nations, the captaincy is surely under the same bracket. In a situation whereby Gatland will be relying on his captain to be the voice of calm when the team is under durress, trust is absolute paramount. It's not just the trust to know that your captain won't get himself sent off. It's the trust that he will stick to the directions and plans worked on with the coaching team in the week. With Warburton, the accumulated years have made that trust a strong one. Picking anyone else would have but a slither of the bond that exists between the two.
- And, of course, Gatland knows Warburton can play and lead a team that can win rugby games and tournaments playing to Gatland's tactics

As I said, that is not exhaustive, nor is it justification per se that this is the correct decision. I'm merely saying I believe Warburton will be hands down Warren Gatland's first choice for captaining the Lions.

Of course, this does not mean he doesn't have alternatives, nor that the captain exists in a vacuum as the voice between the players and the coaches. You need a leadership team, and Hartley would of course be among those. Equally, you don't dismiss Warburton's injury record and just assume he'll be fit for the tour.

However, talking purely academically this far out from the Lions Tour, Warburton is surely his preferred choice, well out ahead of any other player, at this stage. The coming season may throw up a whole host of things that changes the situation, but that's always the case.

I'm amazed how often I have to say this, but fans seem to be a bit myopic about selection. You don't just pick the flavour of the month en masse. Even if England don't win the 6N this season, you'd still select a number of the players- particularly forwards- who played so well last season. You use a mixture of pedigree (past form), current form, attitude (something Warburton clearly has the correct form of, Hartley's attitude has terrible historical blotches, and some quite recently too), the type of player they are, and the function they perform within the team and squad (i.e. you don't want a backline of Jamie Roberts', nor Christian Wades': you have a complementary mixture). Hartley is currently captain of an England team that did pretty well last season, but dear me, there are a whole host of reasons why Gatland would prefer Warburton over him, even if England have a great season this year.

One other factor- the reaction of the media- of course plays a part, and unfortunately it already seems like the sports media sees the Lions (as they did England in their RWC) as fair game in the same way they see the England football team. They're happy to build the team up artificially, but equally love nothing more than creating a storm in a teacup (the current topic in English football is which position Rooney plays; for the Lions, it will be how many Welsh players are picked, not enough players from XYZ, and the captain comes under this as well unfortunately). Now, hopefully it won't be the case where this factor will play that big a part in influencing Gatland, who is admittedly very thick skinned when it comes to this sort of decision, but as I mentioned in my comment that you quoted, I believe he's using this as an interview for the All Blacks job, and will perhaps be more inclined to get the British and Irish media onside than he has in the past (and also for sponsorship reasons, I'm sure someone had a word about the negative press the BoD decision brought, even if they didn't query his decision making). I feel like there's a sense of the media waiting with baited breath for something to latch their teeth into, particularly as this now comes with the weight of the English media which wants to defend the (currently) successful English side and its representatives, which far outweighs the others nations' put together.

Is that a sufficient analysis of what I think the decision making process will be held to? Hartley's record as England captain is one season long. Just as England crashing miserably out of the their RWC less than a year ago cannot be simply forgotten when discussing their recent winning streak, nor can you dismiss his atrocious disciplinary record, nor the fact he has not been guaranteed a starting place for his country until this season. By picking Hartley, you do not transplant his country's (very recent) success against the SH, just as Warburton did not transplant Wales's phsychological deficincies in playing the same teams that led them to repeatedly lose seemingly the most winnable of positions.

Selection- as Gatland himself stated when discussing BoD- is a judgement call. I personally cannot see Gatland choosing Hartley over Warburton if the latter is in some sort of decent form and fitness, even in a month of Sundays.

What a load of muddled waffle.

It's going to be Itoje anyway (if he wants it).

miaow.

Surely Gatland will wan't to pick a captain who will play for the full eighty minutes, in every test with out picking up an injurie in the first game. and not beable too play for the rest of the tournament?

If he picks Warburton as captain it simply confirms he is not the right choice for lions coach. Warburton is a decent international but the best back row in the NH?

Cyril wrote:What a load of muddled waffle.

Sounds like something they sell at Waitrose.

TJ wrote:If he picks Warburton as captain it simply confirms he is not the right choice for lions coach.  Warburton is a decent international but the best back row in the NH?  

Who suggested that? Where did I or anyone else ever suggest that?

majesticimperialman wrote:miaow.

Surely Gatland  will wan't to pick a captain who will play for the full eighty minutes, in every test with out picking up an injurie in the first game. and not beable too play for the rest of the tournament?
 

Then why does he keep picking Warburton for Wales? And why did he select Warburton as captain on the last Tour? It's a testament to the player that Warburton is at his best- even when he's just playing adequately- that his prevalence to get injured doesn't stop him being made captain. In any case, why should that be a criterion for selecting a captain? Why should you stop Warburton being made captain on that basis, if you're not willing to consider other players' inexperience (Itoje has less than half as season as an international) and horrendous disciplinary record (Hartley)? Why hold him to higher standards? And why assume that he will be injured? The past tells us that Wales and the Lions have been very good at managing Warburton so that he peaks for when it matters: the key Test matches. Now, that may mean he plays very little for the Blues, but so be it, the coaching staff will know the bodily weaknesses of every single player they select intimately, and will make sure that as little strain as possible is put on those places. He could be injured in the first minute of the first game of the Tour. He could be speared into the ground in the first minute of the first Test. Great. So could every single player. His injury record is not so bad that it has stopped him playing at major tournaments, and captaining his team at that. Why shoud that factor overrule every single other factor that goes in his favour, particularly when the decision is being made by Gatland, and thus many of the positives are specific to him.

Again, I'm not saying it is objectively the "correct" or "best" decision, and if it were a different coach I doubt he would be favourite (whether rightly or wrongly), as I believe him to be now. But that's not the point. Even if it were, I'm yet to hear a convincing argument that there is a better option out there. Please, somebody, provide me with a justified defence of a player other than Warburton being made captain, not the tautology of "X will become captain because he will".

miaow wrote:

TJ wrote:If he picks Warburton as captain it simply confirms he is not the right choice for lions coach.  Warburton is a decent international but the best back row in the NH?  

Who suggested that? Where did I or anyone else ever suggest that?

In your long post above

miaow wrote:At his best, he's the best openside playing Test rugby in the NH.

TJ wrote:

miaow wrote:

TJ wrote:If he picks Warburton as captain it simply confirms he is not the right choice for lions coach.  Warburton is a decent international but the best back row in the NH?  

Who suggested that? Where did I or anyone else ever suggest that?

In your long post above

miaow wrote:At his best, he's the best openside playing Test rugby in the NH.

What's the difference between Billy Vunipola and Sam Warburton? What's the difference between Peter O'Mahony and Sam Warburton? And what's the similarity between Sam Warburton and John Hardie?

Take your time...

its been a long time since Warburton has come close to the 3 performances Haskell put in against Australia just recently.

miaow.


I am not saying that Warburton should no be considered for the choice of Captain of the Lions.

What i am saying is that he should not be( first ) choice just because Gatland is head coach.

With regards to being the best 7 in the NH? well i would question that, Like Big trevsbigmac above says it as been a long time since Warburton put in a performance like Haskell did in Australia.

Like i said though it is a long way to go before the Lions tour starts. So it is too early to start picking first or second choice players.

majesticimperialman wrote:miaow.

Surely Gatland  will wan't to pick a captain who will play for the full eighty minutes, in every test with out picking up an injurie in the first game. and not beable too play for the rest of the tournament?
 

So not only does Great Gats have to coach the Lions to beat the ABs, he also has to look into his crystal ball to predict who won't get injured between now and up to the first test - he's got quite a job on his hands but even if he did manage to pull it off he'd still get shoite from people on here, because they didn't like the the type of crystal ball he used

In 2013 it was possible to argue that Wales would have a majority of test team lions.  Wales were on top in the NH and man for man were better in many positions.

Wales have not performed well for several years and have lost 3 out of 4 against England since 2014.  England are deservedly ranked second and have developed some excellent players. Wales will need to have an outstanding Autumn series and 6Ns with current first choice players playing better than they have for a while.

I expect England to dominate the Lions squad. On today's form, only Wartburton, Faletau, L Williams, Webb, AWJ and North would even challenge for a lions test.

Everything to play for over the next six months but I will be amazed if Gatland chooses Warburton as his captain because I don't see Wales improving enough this season.

mikey_dragon wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:miaow.

Surely Gatland  will wan't to pick a captain who will play for the full eighty minutes, in every test with out picking up an injurie in the first game. and not beable too play for the rest of the tournament?
 

So not only does Great Gats have to coach the Lions to beat the ABs, he also has to look into his crystal ball to predict who won't get injured between now and up to the first test - he's got quite a job on his hands but even if he did manage to pull it off he'd still get shoite from people on here, because they didn't like the the type of crystal ball he used

So when has the great Gats beaten the All Blacks? ermmmm No never. So what makes you think he is going to beat them with the Lions?

You claim the Gats is the best coach in the NH. Yet his record against the SH team's is very poor indeed.

England with Stewart Lancaster in 2012 beat the All Blacks. Eddie Jones with England beat Australia this summer on Australian soil.

Please state when the great Gats as done such thing.

majesticimperialman wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:miaow.

Surely Gatland  will wan't to pick a captain who will play for the full eighty minutes, in every test with out picking up an injurie in the first game. and not beable too play for the rest of the tournament?
 

So not only does Great Gats have to coach the Lions to beat the ABs, he also has to look into his crystal ball to predict who won't get injured between now and up to the first test - he's got quite a job on his hands but even if he did manage to pull it off he'd still get shoite from people on here, because they didn't like the the type of crystal ball he used

So when has the great Gats beaten the All Blacks? ermmmm No never. So what makes you think he is going to beat them with the Lions?

You claim the Gats is the best coach in the NH. Yet his record against the SH team's is very poor indeed.

England with Stewart Lancaster in 2012 beat the All Blacks. Eddie Jones with England beat Australia this summer on Australian soil.

Please state when the great Gats as done such thing.

Eerrmmmmmmmm it seems you have trouble reading your own language, or are extremely ignorant... Scrap that, it seems you're both. It's also particularly distasteful how you keep speaking about Warburton's injury record as if you're wishing another one on him and with that you just come across as a lowlife and not a true rugby supporter let alone a Lions supporter. Go have a quiet word with yourself before posting back here chap.

offload wrote:In 2013 it was possible to argue that Wales would have a majority of test team lions.  Wales were on top in the NH and man for man were better in many positions.

Wales have not performed well for several years and have lost 3 out of 4 against England since 2014.  England are deservedly ranked second and have developed some excellent players. Wales will need to have an outstanding Autumn series and 6Ns with current first choice players playing better than they have for a while.

I expect England to dominate the Lions squad. On today's form, only Wartburton, Faletau, L Williams, Webb, AWJ and North would even challenge for a lions test.

Everything to play for over the next six months but I will be amazed if Gatland chooses Warburton as his captain because I don't see Wales improving enough this season.

I agree with you, England should dominate test team selection. You say on today's form and list Warburton. I expect him to be there but on today's form that is incorrect as he's only played a single game. Someone like Ellis Jenkins might be a candidate on today's form.

The captain pick is really simple, it's AWJ with Hartley as his deputy.

mikey_dragon wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:miaow.

Surely Gatland  will wan't to pick a captain who will play for the full eighty minutes, in every test with out picking up an injurie in the first game. and not beable too play for the rest of the tournament?
 

So not only does Great Gats have to coach the Lions to beat the ABs, he also has to look into his crystal ball to predict who won't get injured between now and up to the first test - he's got quite a job on his hands but even if he did manage to pull it off he'd still get shoite from people on here, because they didn't like the the type of crystal ball he used

So when has the great Gats beaten the All Blacks? ermmmm No never. So what makes you think he is going to beat them with the Lions?

You claim the Gats is the best coach in the NH. Yet his record against the SH team's is very poor indeed.

England with Stewart Lancaster in 2012 beat the All Blacks. Eddie Jones with England beat Australia this summer on Australian soil.

Please state when the great Gats as done such thing.

Eerrmmmmmmmm it seems you have trouble reading your own language, or are extremely ignorant... Scrap that, it seems you're both. It's also particularly distasteful how you keep speaking about Warburton's injury record as if you're wishing another one on him and with that you just come across as a lowlife and not a true rugby supporter let alone a Lions supporter. Go have a quiet word with yourself before posting back here chap.

It seems you are up set because i am talking about a ( WELSH ) man and saying he should not be captain of the Lions simply because he is ( WELSH ) CHAP.

No madge, I'm not. I've mentioned what I don't like in that post, and also the fact that you've misunderstood my post and replied with some stupid stuff. So are you saying a certain Welshman shouldn't captain the Lions because he's Welsh, or a Welsh player should not be captain? Who would you select as captain?

mikey_dragon wrote:

offload wrote:In 2013 it was possible to argue that Wales would have a majority of test team lions.  Wales were on top in the NH and man for man were better in many positions.

Wales have not performed well for several years and have lost 3 out of 4 against England since 2014.  England are deservedly ranked second and have developed some excellent players. Wales will need to have an outstanding Autumn series and 6Ns with current first choice players playing better than they have for a while.

I expect England to dominate the Lions squad. On today's form, only Wartburton, Faletau, L Williams, Webb, AWJ and North would even challenge for a lions test.

Everything to play for over the next six months but I will be amazed if Gatland chooses Warburton as his captain because I don't see Wales improving enough this season.

I agree with you, England should dominate test team selection. You say on today's form and list Warburton. I expect him to be there but on today's form that is incorrect as he's only played a single game. Someone like Ellis Jenkins might be a candidate on today's form.

The captain pick is really simple, it's AWJ with Hartley as his deputy.

You are right about Warburton. Not so sure about AWJ. IMO he will have to have an exceptional season to be a nailed on starting lock and there are very strong contenders in that position. Don't think Gatland will pick anyone as captain who he doesn't expect to start every test. My money would be on Hartley.

True, but I'm confident that AWJ will be there as to me he's still the best in his position . I wouldn't mind Hartley being captain, but I'm sure a few would have a moan.

For arguments sake a back-row combo I would like to see get a run at some point on tour is 6 Stander, 7 Hardie, 8 Vunipola - it's pretty much our S15 back-row...

mikey_dragon wrote:No madge, I'm not. I've mentioned what I don't like in that post, and also the fact that you've misunderstood my post and replied with some stupid stuff. So are you saying a certain Welshman shouldn't captain the Lions because he's Welsh, or a Welsh player should not be captain? Who would you select as captain?

mikey-dragon

What i am saying is just because Gatland, ( head coach ) of Wales and now head coach of the Lions. does not, should not garuntee that Warburton ( captain of Wales ) should be an automatic choice of Captain for the Lions.

Who would i have as captain? at this moment in time i do not know. No player captain or other wise should be chosen untill after the 2017 6 ns in my opinion.

You say AWJ would be your choice. I dont know to be honest. yes he as the experience but lock will be a tough fight for places, i think.

Hartley yes he as done well in is first term as captain of England. Would he be a better choice of Captain? may be may be not. a tough call really.

I think if England win the 6Ns then it will be Hartley & right now that is a good bet

majesticimperialman wrote:What i am saying is just because Gatland, ( head coach ) of Wales and now head coach of the Lions. does not, should not garuntee that Warburton ( captain of Wales ) should be an automatic choice of Captain for the Lions.

Who would i have as captain? at this moment in time i do not know. No player captain or other wise should be chosen untill after the 2017 6 ns in my opinion.

I don't think we need to wait until the Six Nations. It's obvious now who the Best man for the job is

I would be utterly gutted if Gatland goes for either Warburton or AWJ as captain.

Neither are anywhere near automatic picks for their position.

Hard to look past Kruis for tight-head lock right now, Itoje may have got the headlines but he was outstanding too. And if you did, I think J Gray is ahead of AWJ too.

Back-row has to be picked on form, it's so critical to beating the ABs that you can't carry someone who's not at the top of their game.  

* James Davies is my bolter for openside


Is there a rule on when Gatland has to announce his captain? Or can he do it when he announces his squad post 6 Nations?

I'm struggling to understand why James Davies is so highly rated? A decent prospect yes but he's not even the second best open-side in Wales. Have a few of you been hanging out with Turks?

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm struggling to understand why James Davies is so highly rated? A decent prospect yes but he's not even the second best open-side in Wales. Have a few of you been hanging out with Turks?

From what I saw of him last season, a genuine ground hog with a decent turn of pace.

Yeah, the traditional open-side, but a certain Ellis Jenkins is better. I think Jenks should start at 7 for Wales on this form.

I have absolutely no issue with Gatland being the Lions coach. I would say that he is the best man for the job (just in front of Cotter imho).

As for Warburton being captain (if fit and in form) no problem there either as I think that he is an excellent leader.

Gatland is too good and experienced a coach to simply shoe horn Welsh players in there because he is familiar with them, he will pick the best team available.

eirebilly - its exactly what he did last time. Picked welsh players out of form or carrying an injury and ignored other better ones from other countries.

warburton is a good leader no doubt - but the captain must be an automatic pick as the best in his position and warburton simply isn't right now.

Much as I hate to say it 'cos I can't stand the man but it would be Hartley for me right now. Captaincy suits him and he would have no problem justifying his place. Jonny Gray would be a good captain but there is huge competition for locks. I think he is the best in the NH but he is not so well rated by many and he is a very different player to say Itoje