Warren Gatland announced as Lions coach

First topic message reminder :

Apparently, according to Ian McGeechan anyway Gatland has been given the job again.

TJ wrote:eirebilly - its exactly what he did last time.  Picked welsh players out of form or carrying an injury and ignored other better ones from other countries.

warburton is a good leader no doubt - but the captain must be an automatic pick as the best in his position and warburton simply isn't right now.

Much as I hate to say it 'cos I can't stand the man but it would be Hartley for me right now.  Captaincy suits him and he would have no problem justifying his place.  Jonny Gray would be a good captain but there is huge competition for locks.  I think he is the best in the NH but he is not so well rated by many and he is a very different player to say Itoje

I am critical of Gatland, I think he has run his course with Wales. However, I'm curious as to which players you think Gatland picked in 2013 who were out of form and whom he ignored?

WAs AJW not carrying an injury? 1/2p instead of Hogg are the two I remember most.  Hogg had comprehensively outplayed 1/2p in the 6n before.  I am sure there were others as well but I wouldn't swear to who  Other out of form forwards as well IIRC. Was Roberts not carrying an injury as well?

Have to look back at the thread from then to be sure.

AWJ was fine if I remember rightly. Lydiate was injured before hand... Halfpenny was in form too, perhaps a bit better than Hogg and that's in spite of all the "metres made" stats the Scots were providing each week. It's also worth noting that Hogg was given game time on tour and looked quite erratic, where-as Halfpenny was voted man of the tournament....

Hogg got a midweek game at 10 where he hasn't played since being a schoolboy and 15 mins in the 3rd game IIRC. He had been much better than 1/2p in the 6 N. If Hogg had been welsh he would have started every test.

there is no way on earth that the last lions tour should have had so many welsh in it if picked on merit. Gatland went with what he knew and was comfortable with unless someone else forced their way in. Now maybe you can justify that on the grounds they knew the tactics and Gatland knew them but that lions party was not the best of the home nations. It was Wales plus a few others who forced their way in.

Anyway we will see when the team is selected but I have come round to the view I don't really want any scots to go. Last tour damaged those scots who went as they were ignored for the test side no matter what they did. I don't want that happening again.

TJ wrote:Hogg got a midweek game at 10 where he hasn't played since being a schoolboy and 15 mins in the 3rd game IIRC.  He had been much better than 1/2p in the 6 N.  If Hogg had been welsh he would have started every test.

there is no way on earth that the last lions tour should have had so many welsh in it if picked on merit.  Gatland went with what he knew and was comfortable with unless someone else forced their way in.  Now maybe you can justify that on the grounds they knew the tactics and Gatland knew them but that lions party was not the best of the home nations.  It was Wales plus a few others who forced their way in.  

That may be your opinion, but it doesn't make you right. Three years ago I would never have picked Hogg over 1/2p. There were a lot of Welsh, but who missed out on merit? Next year I expect England to provide most of the test team - I expect that will be on merit too.

Any choice for the Lions is going to be close to the next pick; can't really think of a position where there wouldn't be some argument. I think the only basis where you can clearly say it was a mistake is if you're taking injured and unfit players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Any choice for the Lions is going to be close to the next pick; can't really think of a position where there wouldn't be some argument. I think the only basis where you can clearly say it was a mistake is if you're taking injured and unfit players.

Like BOD?

Not in particular no. Don't remember him picking up an injury that kept him out for any length of time?

Gooseberry wrote:Like BOD?

No, he just means the Welsh one's.

LD, stop being so petty. I know you think everyone is out to get you but they ain't. I do think there should be representation across all the nations in the team as that's what part of it is about for me but I don't really consider nationality after that point when I'm thinking about the teams make up or my preferred selection. You're still grumpy I think it took Gatland too long to get the make up of the side right ie the 3rd test and want to use this as a stick to beat me with for being anti Welsh. Even discounting the fact I don't think Davies should have been picked ahead of BOD on grounds of performance in the 2nd do you want to have a look at the amount of Welsh in the team adn then have a rethink on whether I consider the Welsh to be useless?

Jeepers - we are months away from squad selection yet. Lets see what Gatland does maybe before we argue more ;-)

Yep - I'd suggest we wait until Gatland picks his squad before criticising it. He'll have seen what worked last time (and the time before) and what didn't. First and foremost he'll want to win this series. If he manages that he goes down in history as one of the greatest Lions coaches of all time. I suspect we'll see far less of a Welsh bias this time around (unless Wales have a storming AIs and 6 Nations), purely because Ireland are very much up there with Wales and England have moved ahead. That wasn't the case last time around.

I've followed every tour since 1997 and there are always heated debates around selection. No coach will ever get it "right" in the eyes of all fans, and most tours see a bolter coming through the squad. A player seen as a dirt tracker at the outset who ends up being a key component of the Test XV. Conventional wisdom often gets turned on its head in rugby anyway. If you'd told me a year ago that an Eddie Jones England revolution would be founded on Dylan Hartley as captain, James Haskell at 7 and Owen Farrell at 12 I'd have laughed in your face.

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ was fine if I remember rightly. Lydiate was injured before hand... Halfpenny was in form too, perhaps a bit better than Hogg and that's in spite of all the "metres made" stats the Scots were providing each week. It's also worth noting that Hogg was given game time on tour and looked quite erratic, where-as Halfpenny was voted man of the tournament....

Mike Phillips was injured and very off form and selected ahead of the inform Conor Murray whose national half back partner Sexton was the outhalf.

Tommy Bowe was rushed back too quickly (and hasn't been the same player since).

An inform Sean O'Brien should have been starting ahead of Warburton.

As Paul O'Connell said, the game plan was the Welsh gameplan with Halfpenny kicking the points (which is why Halfpenny was player of the series). Alex Cuthbert should not have been a starting Lion with plenty of other backs who would have been well up to it, but they were not big lumps so were only there to hold tackle bags (which most of them didn't mind because they were well paid for it).

funnyExiledScot wrote:Yep - I'd suggest we wait until Gatland picks his squad before criticising it. He'll have seen what worked last time (and the time before) and what didn't. First and foremost he'll want to win this series. If he manages that he goes down in history as one of the greatest Lions coaches of all time. I suspect we'll see far less of a Welsh bias this time around (unless Wales have a storming AIs and 6 Nations), purely because Ireland are very much up there with Wales and England have moved ahead. That wasn't the case last time around.

I've followed every tour since 1997 and there are always heated debates around selection. No coach will ever get it "right" in the eyes of all fans, and most tours see a bolter coming through the squad. A player seen as a dirt tracker at the outset who ends up being a key component of the Test XV. Conventional wisdom often gets turned on its head in rugby anyway. If you'd told me a year ago that an Eddie Jones England revolution would be founded on Dylan Hartley as captain, James Haskell at 7 and Owen Farrell at 12 I'd have laughed in your face.

If that was true, Conor Murray would have been the starting scrumhalf - he wasn't. Extraordinary when you think that the No. 8 was Heaslip and the No. 10 was Sexton. We only saw him because of Philips injury.

Sin e - you need to give it a rest. I was talking about Lions tours generally rather than about the usual round of Irish grievances about Gatland. We get it. You hate Gatland and feel that he botched the last tour. Murray, SOB and BOD should have starred etc. etc. Let's not go another 50 rounds on this.

Examples of outsiders becoming key players in the Test XV:

1997 - Jeremy Davidson, Tom Smith
2001 - Rob Henderson, Martin Corry
2005 - Ryan Jones
2009 - Matthew Rees, Tom Croft, Rob Kearney
2013 - JD2

If I didn't know better I'd have thought you were taking the mess with 2013s pick.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If I didn't know better I'd have thought you were taking the mess with 2013s pick.

Not at all. Most pundits had a combination of Roberts, Tuilagi and BOD down as the centre options for the Test XV, and JD2 ended up playing the entire series (two Tests at 12 and one at 13). I'd say he was a pretty strong example of a player picked for the squad but not expected to feature in the Test XV, then going on to play an important role in the Test series.

Ah, I get you.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ was fine if I remember rightly. Lydiate was injured before hand... Halfpenny was in form too, perhaps a bit better than Hogg and that's in spite of all the "metres made" stats the Scots were providing each week. It's also worth noting that Hogg was given game time on tour and looked quite erratic, where-as Halfpenny was voted man of the tournament....

Mike Phillips was injured and very off form and selected ahead of the inform Conor Murray whose national half back partner Sexton was the outhalf.

Tommy Bowe was rushed back too quickly (and hasn't been the same player since).

An inform Sean O'Brien should have been starting ahead of Warburton.

As Paul O'Connell said, the game plan was the Welsh gameplan with Halfpenny kicking the points (which is why Halfpenny was player of the series). Alex Cuthbert should not have been a starting Lion with plenty of other backs who would have been well up to it, but they were not big lumps so were only there to hold tackle bags (which most of them didn't mind because they were well paid for it).

So to clarify:

Irish players should have started ahead of Welsh ones, except for when they did.
Someone said there was a plan which worked. But selecting the player that made that happen wasn't fair because hes not Irish, despite him performing his role well. Players of course should be selected not to do a specific job for the team but to keep BOD happy, and everyone should've been rotated to give the whole squad a go ...expect at 13 because that might've upset BOD.



Sounds legit.

Gooseberry wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ was fine if I remember rightly. Lydiate was injured before hand... Halfpenny was in form too, perhaps a bit better than Hogg and that's in spite of all the "metres made" stats the Scots were providing each week. It's also worth noting that Hogg was given game time on tour and looked quite erratic, where-as Halfpenny was voted man of the tournament....

Mike Phillips was injured and very off form and selected ahead of the inform Conor Murray whose national half back partner Sexton was the outhalf.

Tommy Bowe was rushed back too quickly (and hasn't been the same player since).

An inform Sean O'Brien should have been starting ahead of Warburton.

As Paul O'Connell said, the game plan was the Welsh gameplan with Halfpenny kicking the points (which is why Halfpenny was player of the series). Alex Cuthbert should not have been a starting Lion with plenty of other backs who would have been well up to it, but they were not big lumps so were only there to hold tackle bags (which most of them didn't mind because they were well paid for it).

So to clarify:

Irish players should have started ahead of Welsh ones, except for when they did.
Someone said there was a plan which worked. But selecting the player that made that happen wasn't fair because hes not Irish, despite him performing his role well. Players of course should be selected not to do a specific job for the team but to keep BOD happy, and everyone should've been rotated to give the whole squad a go ...expect at 13 because that might've upset BOD.



Sounds legit.

You can't please everyone I suppose. Cuthbert played one test if I remember rightly because there wasn't anybody available to play the first test on the wing - he scored a try too so not all bad. If I'm being honest I think Phillips was there on reputation, and I can't exactly remember what sort of form Murray was in.

funnyExiledScot wrote: If you'd told me a year ago that an Eddie Jones England revolution would be founded on Dylan Hartley as captain, James Haskell at 7 and Owen Farrell at 12 I'd have laughed in your face.

The world has stopped spinning.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sin e - you need to give it a rest. I was talking about Lions tours generally rather than about the usual round of Irish grievances about Gatland. We get it. You hate Gatland and feel that he botched the last tour. Murray, SOB and BOD should have starred etc. etc. Let's not go another 50 rounds on this.

Examples of outsiders becoming key players in the Test XV:

1997 - Jeremy Davidson, Tom Smith
2001 - Rob Henderson, Martin Corry
2005 - Ryan Jones
2009 - Matthew Rees, Tom Croft, Rob Kearney
2013 - JD2

How was Rob Kearney a fringe player. He had been the fullback for Ireland for their Grand Slam and Leinster for a Heineken Cup?

Would JD2 been a starter for the final test if he wasn't a Welsh player?

Ryan Jones got to play because of injury (like a lot on that tour). I'd also say that Ryan Jones should not have made the Lions in 2009 because his form was poor and he was injured.

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sin e - you need to give it a rest. I was talking about Lions tours generally rather than about the usual round of Irish grievances about Gatland. We get it. You hate Gatland and feel that he botched the last tour. Murray, SOB and BOD should have starred etc. etc. Let's not go another 50 rounds on this.

Examples of outsiders becoming key players in the Test XV:

1997 - Jeremy Davidson, Tom Smith
2001 - Rob Henderson, Martin Corry
2005 - Ryan Jones
2009 - Matthew Rees, Tom Croft, Rob Kearney
2013 - JD2

How was Rob Kearney a fringe player. He had been the fullback for Ireland for their Grand Slam and Leinster for a Heineken Cup?

Would JD2 been a starter for the final test if he wasn't a Welsh player?

Lee Byrne was widely tipped to be the Test XV fullback. Don't think a single pundit had Kearney to feature in the Tests at the start of the tour. Byrne got injured and Kearney went on to make a massive impact on the Test series.

Don't know the answer to the second question, obviously. I think I may know where you might be going with this.....

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sin e - you need to give it a rest. I was talking about Lions tours generally rather than about the usual round of Irish grievances about Gatland. We get it. You hate Gatland and feel that he botched the last tour. Murray, SOB and BOD should have starred etc. etc. Let's not go another 50 rounds on this.

Examples of outsiders becoming key players in the Test XV:

1997 - Jeremy Davidson, Tom Smith
2001 - Rob Henderson, Martin Corry
2005 - Ryan Jones
2009 - Matthew Rees, Tom Croft, Rob Kearney
2013 - JD2

Ryan Jones got to play because of injury (like a lot on that tour). I'd also say that Ryan Jones should not have made the Lions in 2009 because his form was poor and he was injured.

Exactly, making him a nice example of a player not tipped to feature in the Test XV at the start of the tour who went on to be an extremely valuable player for the Lions in the Test series.

I didn't list Ryan Jones in 2009.

Gooseberry wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ was fine if I remember rightly. Lydiate was injured before hand... Halfpenny was in form too, perhaps a bit better than Hogg and that's in spite of all the "metres made" stats the Scots were providing each week. It's also worth noting that Hogg was given game time on tour and looked quite erratic, where-as Halfpenny was voted man of the tournament....

Mike Phillips was injured and very off form and selected ahead of the inform Conor Murray whose national half back partner Sexton was the outhalf.

Tommy Bowe was rushed back too quickly (and hasn't been the same player since).

An inform Sean O'Brien should have been starting ahead of Warburton.

As Paul O'Connell said, the game plan was the Welsh gameplan with Halfpenny kicking the points (which is why Halfpenny was player of the series). Alex Cuthbert should not have been a starting Lion with plenty of other backs who would have been well up to it, but they were not big lumps so were only there to hold tackle bags (which most of them didn't mind because they were well paid for it).

So to clarify:

Irish players should have started ahead of Welsh ones, except for when they did.
Someone said there was a plan which worked. But selecting the player that made that happen wasn't fair because hes not Irish, despite him performing his role well. Players of course should be selected not to do a specific job for the team but to keep BOD happy, and everyone should've been rotated to give the whole squad a go ...expect at 13 because that might've upset BOD.



Sounds legit.

Just filling in the missing info on Gatland's selections on the 2009 Tour (for example, Gatland was not doing Hogg any favours by starting him at outhalf in a midweek game). It was obvious he was cannon fodder from the start.

Oh, and lets not forget Gatland getting a retired Shane Williams a game.

I have no objection to Gatland dropping BOD - what I have objected to is the way he did it.

Sin é wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ was fine if I remember rightly. Lydiate was injured before hand... Halfpenny was in form too, perhaps a bit better than Hogg and that's in spite of all the "metres made" stats the Scots were providing each week. It's also worth noting that Hogg was given game time on tour and looked quite erratic, where-as Halfpenny was voted man of the tournament....

Mike Phillips was injured and very off form and selected ahead of the inform Conor Murray whose national half back partner Sexton was the outhalf.

Tommy Bowe was rushed back too quickly (and hasn't been the same player since).

An inform Sean O'Brien should have been starting ahead of Warburton.

As Paul O'Connell said, the game plan was the Welsh gameplan with Halfpenny kicking the points (which is why Halfpenny was player of the series). Alex Cuthbert should not have been a starting Lion with plenty of other backs who would have been well up to it, but they were not big lumps so were only there to hold tackle bags (which most of them didn't mind because they were well paid for it).

So to clarify:

Irish players should have started ahead of Welsh ones, except for when they did.
Someone said there was a plan which worked. But selecting the player that made that happen wasn't fair because hes not Irish, despite him performing his role well. Players of course should be selected not to do a specific job for the team but to keep BOD happy, and everyone should've been rotated to give the whole squad a go ...expect at 13 because that might've upset BOD.



Sounds legit.

Just filling in the missing info on Gatland's selections on the 2009 Tour (for example, Gatland was not doing Hogg any favours by starting him at outhalf in a midweek game). It was obvious he was cannon fodder from the start.

Oh, and lets not forget Gatland getting a retired Shane Williams a game.

I have no objection to Gatland dropping BOD - what I have objected to is the way he did it.

Gatland wasn't in charge of the 2013 tour.

As for his treatment of Hogg, I agree that the decision to pick him at 10 was odd, but Hogg made a hash of his initial chance at the 15 jersey. Truth be told, Hogg was too green to be the Test match 15 in 2013, plus the fact that Halfpenny did a rather good job anyway.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sin e - you need to give it a rest. I was talking about Lions tours generally rather than about the usual round of Irish grievances about Gatland. We get it. You hate Gatland and feel that he botched the last tour. Murray, SOB and BOD should have starred etc. etc. Let's not go another 50 rounds on this.

Examples of outsiders becoming key players in the Test XV:

1997 - Jeremy Davidson, Tom Smith
2001 - Rob Henderson, Martin Corry
2005 - Ryan Jones
2009 - Matthew Rees, Tom Croft, Rob Kearney
2013 - JD2

Ryan Jones got to play because of injury (like a lot on that tour). I'd also say that Ryan Jones should not have made the Lions in 2009 because his form was poor and he was injured.

Exactly, making him a nice example of a player not tipped to feature in the Test XV at the start of the tour who went on to be an extremely valuable player for the Lions in the Test series.

I didn't list Ryan Jones in 2009.

Is your point that players not expected to start, ending up starting through injury and performed very well?
You have not explained why you think Rob Kearney would have been a fringe player in 2009!

Because Lee Byrne was the starter?

Yep, top marks mikey. You see, I did explain it!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ was fine if I remember rightly. Lydiate was injured before hand... Halfpenny was in form too, perhaps a bit better than Hogg and that's in spite of all the "metres made" stats the Scots were providing each week. It's also worth noting that Hogg was given game time on tour and looked quite erratic, where-as Halfpenny was voted man of the tournament....

Mike Phillips was injured and very off form and selected ahead of the inform Conor Murray whose national half back partner Sexton was the outhalf.

Tommy Bowe was rushed back too quickly (and hasn't been the same player since).

An inform Sean O'Brien should have been starting ahead of Warburton.

As Paul O'Connell said, the game plan was the Welsh gameplan with Halfpenny kicking the points (which is why Halfpenny was player of the series). Alex Cuthbert should not have been a starting Lion with plenty of other backs who would have been well up to it, but they were not big lumps so were only there to hold tackle bags (which most of them didn't mind because they were well paid for it).

So to clarify:

Irish players should have started ahead of Welsh ones, except for when they did.
Someone said there was a plan which worked. But selecting the player that made that happen wasn't fair because hes not Irish, despite him performing his role well. Players of course should be selected not to do a specific job for the team but to keep BOD happy, and everyone should've been rotated to give the whole squad a go ...expect at 13 because that might've upset BOD.



Sounds legit.

Just filling in the missing info on Gatland's selections on the 2009 Tour (for example, Gatland was not doing Hogg any favours by starting him at outhalf in a midweek game). It was obvious he was cannon fodder from the start.

Oh, and lets not forget Gatland getting a retired Shane Williams a game.

I have no objection to Gatland dropping BOD - what I have objected to is the way he did it.

Gatland wasn't in charge of the 2013 tour.

As for his treatment of Hogg, I agree that the decision to pick him at 10 was odd, but Hogg made a hash of his initial chance at the 15 jersey. Truth be told, Hogg was too green to be the Test match 15 in 2013, plus the fact that Halfpenny did a rather good job anyway.

This is the headline that was in the Guardian for the 2009 Lions: Lions go Welsh in coaching line-up for South Africa

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/oct/22/lions-tour-coaching-gatland

I see you have failed to respond to the rest of my post!

mikey_dragon wrote:Because Lee Byrne was the starter?

Why would he have been regarded as the starter? He had just won a Grand Slam and a Heineken Cup! He was the one who was expected to start (particularly with Luke Fitz & Tommy Bowe on the wings).

Oh and I forgot - the indulgence that a totally out of form Shane Williams was ridiculous on the 2009 tour.

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ was fine if I remember rightly. Lydiate was injured before hand... Halfpenny was in form too, perhaps a bit better than Hogg and that's in spite of all the "metres made" stats the Scots were providing each week. It's also worth noting that Hogg was given game time on tour and looked quite erratic, where-as Halfpenny was voted man of the tournament....

Mike Phillips was injured and very off form and selected ahead of the inform Conor Murray whose national half back partner Sexton was the outhalf.

Tommy Bowe was rushed back too quickly (and hasn't been the same player since).

An inform Sean O'Brien should have been starting ahead of Warburton.

As Paul O'Connell said, the game plan was the Welsh gameplan with Halfpenny kicking the points (which is why Halfpenny was player of the series). Alex Cuthbert should not have been a starting Lion with plenty of other backs who would have been well up to it, but they were not big lumps so were only there to hold tackle bags (which most of them didn't mind because they were well paid for it).

So to clarify:

Irish players should have started ahead of Welsh ones, except for when they did.
Someone said there was a plan which worked. But selecting the player that made that happen wasn't fair because hes not Irish, despite him performing his role well. Players of course should be selected not to do a specific job for the team but to keep BOD happy, and everyone should've been rotated to give the whole squad a go ...expect at 13 because that might've upset BOD.



Sounds legit.

Just filling in the missing info on Gatland's selections on the 2009 Tour (for example, Gatland was not doing Hogg any favours by starting him at outhalf in a midweek game). It was obvious he was cannon fodder from the start.

Oh, and lets not forget Gatland getting a retired Shane Williams a game.

I have no objection to Gatland dropping BOD - what I have objected to is the way he did it.

Gatland wasn't in charge of the 2013 tour.

As for his treatment of Hogg, I agree that the decision to pick him at 10 was odd, but Hogg made a hash of his initial chance at the 15 jersey. Truth be told, Hogg was too green to be the Test match 15 in 2013, plus the fact that Halfpenny did a rather good job anyway.

This is the headline that was in the Guardian for the 2009 Lions: Lions go Welsh in coaching line-up for South Africa

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/oct/22/lions-tour-coaching-gatland

I see you have failed to respond to the rest of my post!

I was just pointing out your error. You meant 2013 rather than 2009. I've been addressing the rest of your points for the last 3 years.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Because Lee Byrne was the starter?

Why would he have been regarded as the starter? He had just won a Grand Slam and a Heineken Cup! He was the one who was expected to start (particularly with Luke Fitz & Tommy Bowe on the wings).

Oh and I forgot - the indulgence that a totally out of form Shane Williams was ridiculous on the 2009 tour.

I may be wrong, but casting my mind back to the start of the 2009 tour Lee Byrne was hotly tipped to be the Lions fullback in the Tests.

Obviously winning a grand slam and an HC doesn't necessarily make a player the best in his position. If that were the case, the Saracens English contingent would all be shoe-ins for the Test XV. Would you pick Brad Barritt at 12 for the Lions? Alex Goode at 15?

Still, I think we'd all agree that Kearney capitalised beautifully on Byrne's injury. He was outstanding in that Test series.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/forum/5532056/Lions-2009-Debate-Who-would-you-pick-for-first-Test.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7988781.stm

Interesting stuff FES. How many pundits picked Phillips? that i just can't get over.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Because Lee Byrne was the starter?

Why would he have been regarded as the starter? He had just won a Grand Slam and a Heineken Cup! He was the one who was expected to start (particularly with Luke Fitz & Tommy Bowe on the wings).

Oh and I forgot - the indulgence that a totally out of form Shane Williams was ridiculous on the 2009 tour.

Through being the best full-back in the NH which he held for a few years, hence he started the first test. Your opinion is cack tbh, you don't seem happy unless there's an Irishman in every position for the Lions.

TJ wrote:Interesting stuff FES.  How many pundits picked Phillips?  that i just can't get over.

2009 or 2013?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Sin é wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sin e - you need to give it a rest. I was talking about Lions tours generally rather than about the usual round of Irish grievances about Gatland. We get it. You hate Gatland and feel that he botched the last tour. Murray, SOB and BOD should have starred etc. etc. Let's not go another 50 rounds on this.

Examples of outsiders becoming key players in the Test XV:

1997 - Jeremy Davidson, Tom Smith
2001 - Rob Henderson, Martin Corry
2005 - Ryan Jones
2009 - Matthew Rees, Tom Croft, Rob Kearney
2013 - JD2

How was Rob Kearney a fringe player. He had been the fullback for Ireland for their Grand Slam and Leinster for a Heineken Cup?

Would JD2 been a starter for the final test if he wasn't a Welsh player?

Lee Byrne was widely tipped to be the Test XV fullback. Don't think a single pundit had Kearney to feature in the Tests at the start of the tour. Byrne got injured and Kearney went on to make a massive impact on the Test series.

Don't know the answer to the second question, obviously. I think I may know where you might be going with this.....

Widely tipped by BBC Wales (if you look at that link the five people asked are five former Welsh internationals )

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7988781.stm

I'd say Byrne was definitely the favourite for the 15 shirt (before injury), but Kearney did a fine job when he came in.

Byrne started the first Test anyway so surely he was 1st choice?

So who would be in line for the bolter spots for the Lions?
My own definition of bolter being - someone that isn't a fully established international (possible fringe or minor international recognition). Simon Zebo on the last tour.

He was on the last tour as a late replacement - But I would still class Christian Wade as a bolter.

For England I would consider - Dan Robson.
Who else is there that could be considered?

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Because Lee Byrne was the starter?

Why would he have been regarded as the starter? He had just won a Grand Slam and a Heineken Cup! He was the one who was expected to start (particularly with Luke Fitz & Tommy Bowe on the wings).

Oh and I forgot - the indulgence that a totally out of form Shane Williams was ridiculous on the 2009 tour.

Through being the best full-back in the NH which he held for a few years, hence he started the first test. Your opinion is cack tbh, you don't seem happy unless there's an Irishman in every position for the Lions.

Not true. I think it was a disgrace that Tommy Bowe was shoehorned into the final test against Australia

As I've said, I didn't have a problem with BOD being dropped - what I object to is the humiliating way Gatland went about it.

Any comments I've made is not that Irish players should have started. My problem is that out of form/unfit Welsh players were shoehorned into the team when better options were available.

Cyril wrote:I'd say Byrne was definitely the favourite for the 15 shirt (before injury), but Kearney did a fine job when he came in.

Byrne started the first Test anyway so surely he was 1st choice?

Surprise, surprise the British press select a British player for a position.

Rob Kearney was the form fullback that season if anyone bothered to look.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Because Lee Byrne was the starter?

Why would he have been regarded as the starter? He had just won a Grand Slam and a Heineken Cup! He was the one who was expected to start (particularly with Luke Fitz & Tommy Bowe on the wings).

Oh and I forgot - the indulgence that a totally out of form Shane Williams was ridiculous on the 2009 tour.

Through being the best full-back in the NH which he held for a few years, hence he started the first test. Your opinion is cack tbh, you don't seem happy unless there's an Irishman in every position for the Lions.

Not true. I think it was a disgrace that Tommy Bowe was shoehorned into the final test against Australia

As I've said, I didn't have a problem with BOD being dropped - what I object to is the humiliating way Gatland went about it.

Any comments I've made is not that Irish players should have started. My problem is that out of form/unfit Welsh players were shoehorned into the team when better options were available.

Right so when we mention what actually happened on the 2009 tour which you previously mentioned, you shift to the 2013 tour? Nice try, but there's no fooling mikey.

Better Irish option you mean?

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:I'd say Byrne was definitely the favourite for the 15 shirt (before injury), but Kearney did a fine job when he came in.

Byrne started the first Test anyway so surely he was 1st choice?

Surprise, surprise the British press select a British player for a position.

Rob Kearney was the form fullback that season if anyone bothered to look.

Surprise surprise an Irishman selects an Irish player for a position

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:I'd say Byrne was definitely the favourite for the 15 shirt (before injury), but Kearney did a fine job when he came in.

Byrne started the first Test anyway so surely he was 1st choice?

Surprise, surprise the British press select a British player for a position.

Rob Kearney was the form fullback that season if anyone bothered to look.

Irish press select Irish player for a position.... Those English papers don't like us Welsh btw.

He was 2nd to Byrne, but in the closing stages of the tour Kearney established himself as the best and was the best from that point forward. That's how it is, fact.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Because Lee Byrne was the starter?

Why would he have been regarded as the starter? He had just won a Grand Slam and a Heineken Cup! He was the one who was expected to start (particularly with Luke Fitz & Tommy Bowe on the wings).

Oh and I forgot - the indulgence that a totally out of form Shane Williams was ridiculous on the 2009 tour.

Through being the best full-back in the NH which he held for a few years, hence he started the first test. Your opinion is cack tbh, you don't seem happy unless there's an Irishman in every position for the Lions.

Not true. I think it was a disgrace that Tommy Bowe was shoehorned into the final test against Australia

As I've said, I didn't have a problem with BOD being dropped - what I object to is the humiliating way Gatland went about it.

Any comments I've made is not that Irish players should have started. My problem is that out of form/unfit Welsh players were shoehorned into the team when better options were available.

Right so when we mention what actually happened on the 2009 tour which you previously mentioned, you shift to the 2013 tour? Nice try, but there's no fooling mikey.

Better Irish option you mean?

I'll probably confuse you now, but I don't think Heaslip deserved his starting spot

propdavid_london wrote:So who would be in line for the bolter spots for the Lions?
My own definition of bolter being - someone that isn't a fully established international (possible fringe or minor international recognition).  Simon Zebo on the last tour.

He was on the last tour as a late replacement - But I would still class Christian Wade as a bolter.

For England I would consider - Dan Robson.
Who else is there that could be considered?

For Scotland, you would have to say that Cornell du Preez has a shot.

He becomes SQ about now but a tidying up operation following a bad ankle break last year means that he probably won't feature in the AIs, which is when he would have announced himself. This means that he will explode onto the scene in the 6N 2017.

He has a physicality that I just don't see from any other Scottish player - an absolute animal. I completely understand the difficulties of making the step up to full international level, but I think that he could make a really big impact.

With Tipuric in and out of Gatland's affections, I think a lot of Wales fans would say that young James Davies has a shot if he has a good domestic season this year.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:I'd say Byrne was definitely the favourite for the 15 shirt (before injury), but Kearney did a fine job when he came in.

Byrne started the first Test anyway so surely he was 1st choice?

Surprise, surprise the British press select a British player for a position.

Rob Kearney was the form fullback that season if anyone bothered to look.

Irish press select Irish player for a position.... Those English papers don't like us Welsh btw.

He was 2nd to Byrne, but in the closing stages of the tour Kearney established himself as the best and was the best from that point forward. That's how it is, fact.

Byrne injured his ankle in the 6 Nations and played very little rugby prior to going on tour (2 starts in the PRO12). Meanwhile, Kearney had won a Grand Slam and a Heineken Cup and proved on tour that he should have been the starting fullback. Back then, when the kicking game was in vogue, he was the best fullback in the world for that aspect of the game.