Warren Gatland announced as Lions coach

First topic message reminder :

Apparently, according to Ian McGeechan anyway Gatland has been given the job again.

This thread has hit new lows for waffle, speculation, assumption and ignorant observation. Clearly watching every minute of a team playing rugby is no indication that it will result in intelligent analysis. Quite the opposite. Whatever happened to presenting a succinct argument?

History tells us that winning a series in NZ is very, very difficult to achieve. In 2017 will there be enough exceptional players available and will they play well enough? Maybe, but probably not.

Gatland has had very limited success in the SH. Wales has had none.

The Lions will only win if they can match the power, skill, composure and accuracy of NZ. The tedious BS drivel on this thread is just that. You can't leap from observation to insight without some intelligent understanding - no evidence of that on this thread.

I think you're much too hard on the peoples, offload.  The BBC have just stated that this Thread has a great chance of becoming an interesting one, with even some intelligent folks maybe showing up, well before the first Lions test.

Have faith.  But for now, you're absolutely right and I'm delighted I've read none of this drivel to date...except your bit.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't buy that. Looking at those list of defeats against SH is poor reading. I do rate Gatland but he's underachieved with Wales given their players and I think he underachieved in the last Lions tour.

He probably has underachieved with Wales, but then as I've said, he's perhaps overachieved at times. It's what gives him credit in the bank when he does underachieve. I don't see how- considering all the odds against him on a Lions Tour- you can call a Tour victory an underachievement and nothing more. That's just dull.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really changed my stance here at all throughout. I believe he was too set in his ways and tried impose his Wales tactics on a better (as in the Lions players will always be a higher calibre than individual countries) broader set of players.

I know you have. The irony is that, in not changing your really simple understanding in the face of such much evidence and opinion to the contrary, and not providing any elaboration on why you hold those views, you're being...stubborn!

If you view win loss yes you're right big tick, but on setup of those 1st tests and getting the best out of those players not for me. Ifs and buts Iknow but without the pen miss in the 1st its 2 1 to aus and would that suddenly mean everything they did was rubbish? No, clearly not. My view is he went to Aus with a concrete view of how he was going to play, beat them up up front Roberts or Tuilagi playing his normal 12 role etc how you eloquently talked through. Not sure that really changed despite Warburton looking not100% Healy injured, Corbisiero, only the injury replacement, if I remember injured and it becoming obvious we didn't ever really have that control he thought he would get.

Tactics didn't really change, neither personelle. I was a Vunipola defender (much under rated scrummager back then) but why did he call Grant in and ignore for 80 min? Just felt a lot did go against the team but they didn't react they just went with the same when I don't think it suited the players we ended up with as it would the first choices at peak fitness.

Problem Mako had in 2013 was he was packing down with T.Youngs. Any LH is going to feel much more comfortable packing down with the likes of Hartley and George!

Mako has a similar issue when he's packing down with Brits compared to George. Mako much prefers scrummaging with bigger hookers who are better scrummagers.

SecretFly wrote:I think you're much too hard on the peoples, offload.  The BBC have just stated that this Thread has a great chance of becoming an interesting one, with even some intelligent folks maybe showing up, well before the first Lions test.

Have faith.  But for now, you're absolutely right and I'm delighted I've read none of this drivel to date...except your bit.

Fly, you are welcome. At least my drivel is succinct. That bit about the BBC is not true though is it - they can't afford the rights to this thread. Chanel 4 might take it.

We'll be lucky to win a couple of midweek games if the form of the other home nations are anything to go by. England can't do it alone so who will step up to the plate?

I seem to remember a fairly reasonable tour of SA by Ireland. Won the 1st test and a narrow loss in the 2nd and 3rd.
Should and could have won the series.
The November tests will be the best marker that individuals can put down for Lions selection, followed by the 6N.

The problem for the scots is that although we have around half a dozen players who when you look at "the best in their position" are worth a place on the plane all except perhaps Nel are too much mavericks who do best in an unstructured game with a lot of counterattacking.

Take Hogg for example. He likes to counterattack from deep. Gatland does not like this. If the fullback takes the ball deep gatland wants it kicked up the park as mieows analysis states. so although Hogg is (on current form ) the best attacking FB of the home nations he is unlikely to get a test place because the way he is most effective does not fit with the way Gatland likes to play. ( I would say Williams is also in the same situation)

So although there are scots who might well merit a test place in some ways - they tend not to suit Gatlands tactics so will not get selection.

TJ wrote:The problem for the scots is that although we have around half a dozen players who when you look at "the best in their position" are worth a place on the plane all except perhaps Nel are too much mavericks who do best in an unstructured game with a lot of counterattacking.

Take Hogg for example.  He likes to counterattack from deep.  Gatland does not like this.  If the fullback takes the ball deep gatland wants it kicked up the park as mieows analysis states.  so although Hogg is (on current form ) the best attacking FB of the home nations he is unlikely to get a test place because the way he is most effective does not fit with the way Gatland likes to play.  ( I would say Williams is also in the same situation)

So although there are scots who might well merit a test place in some ways - they tend not to suit Gatlands tactics so will not get selection.

Except Liam Williams does not play this way when in the team (which is most of the time since 1/2p being out for a year).  He attacks from deep and doesn't kick much. And he gets selected. Surely Gats would drop him for not following the rules?

miaow wrote:

exile jack wrote:
I enjoyed your analysis above.Being in NZ this Summer and leaving aside how Gatland will manage the split between the Test and non-Test teams i'd just add the following:
-Biggar was very,very poor.Too slow,too predictable and brainless kicking time after time.Unless he has a stellar season he shouldn't be anywhere near the Lions test team or even the Lions.
-Webb needs to study a video of the speed and distribution of Aaron Smith and limit his use of box-kicking.
-the only Welsh players near a Lions Test place on NZ performances would be Toby,North,Liam to which i'd add Leigh H,and Gethin for the non-Test games squad.

Cheers, glad you enjoyed it. Interesting point about Webb, and one I sort of overlooked in my analysis of kicking. Of course, the scrum half is key in controlling the modern game, and has much more control than the outside half under Gatland. One of those aspecs will be box kicking (which will largely come under the 'best' kick, which is the high and contestable one), so perhaps that removes the need to have a second frontline, open play kicker at 12. Does that mean he opts for Farrell/Biggar to start at 10, with Ford on the bench to come on as and when needed? Quite possibly.

I also agree with Raven, however, that Rhys Webb is probably the best scrum half of the Home Nations at the moment, and didn't think he played too badly out in NZ. His kicking isn't the strongest aspect of his game, but then nor was it Mike Phillips'. I think Webb has other attributes that can offset any perceived weakness from the boot, and it's fair to say Wales were all over the place at times with their kicking tactics out in NZ this Summer, and that includes the chase. Where they can get away with aimless and loose kicks from time to time in the NH as the teams up here are willing to return the ball via the boot, the All Blacks took advantage. Webb has and can kick more effectively than he did on the tour.

I think Webb has every chance of being a Lions 9 but he must be consistently quicker at the base with his kicking and passing against the very best teams.As for Biggar I wonder whether he would benefit from a season or two in France.It made Stephen Jones a much better player,Gareth T too.In the forwards i'd see Kruis,Itoje,Toby,Billy V and Henderson filling the back 5 positions based on performances over the past 6N's and recent summer tours.I think the front row is wide open other than Hartley as Captain.I'd see Farrell,Ford,Russell and possibly Sexton ahead of Dan B,with Seymour,Watson,Williams,North,Joseph,Tuilagi(hopefully) well placed for the backs.I'm also a fan of Goode and we'll need to score tries to get close to NZ.I'd love to see Townsend involved with the coaching.Looking forward to the season and the performance ups and downs.

Biggar is off to France after his current contract is up - he confirmed it to a live audience when he was last in Chepstow. I don't think there's an area of his game that needs to improve, when in good form he is flawless.

mikey_dragon wrote:Biggar is off to France after his current contract is up - he confirmed it to a live audience when he was last in Chepstow. I don't think there's an area of his game that needs to improve, when in good form he is flawless.

Until I speak to Dan next I suppose we'll have to take what you say as true.

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Biggar is off to France after his current contract is up - he confirmed it to a live audience when he was last in Chepstow. I don't think there's an area of his game that needs to improve, when in good form he is flawless.

Until I speak to Dan next I suppose we'll have to take what you say as true.

And then we'll have to take what you say as true! I'll wait for the official press release!

Of course - but I don't see why else he would say it. His reasoning, I'm informed, was that he can earn three times more in France. When is his contract up? He might have changed his mind by then. I don't think you can begrudge him, he's been here for years and has given everything to Ospreys and Wales.

I've spoken to Dan. He laughs at Mikey's story and he don't have a clue who Wayne is! (but is going to have his security increased)

Yis are both lyin' basterdes!! That's official.

SecretFly wrote:I've spoken to Dan.  He laughs at Mikey's story and he don't have a clue who Wayne is! (but is going to have his security increased)

Yis are both lyin' basterdes!!  That's official.

Thanks for that Fly, a very insightful contribution to this thread, very illuminating.

No wonder Gatland doesn't like Ulster players - seemingly when he was Ireland coach, he & Donal Lenihan (who was team manager) got death threats from some of the paramilitaries for not selecting more Ulster players for the tour to Australia

And when Gatland didn't select more Irish players before going on to drop BOD in 2013 he got death threats.

mikey_dragon wrote:And when Gatland didn't select more Irish players before going on to drop BOD in 2013 he got death threats.

Any links to that? Who made them? Were the police involved? Or are you just making stuff up?

edit: Irish people don't get too worked up by players not being selected for the Lions. Its not such a big deal over here.

The Irish made them. They were made to JD2 as well.

mikey_dragon wrote:The Irish made them. They were made to JD2 as well.

Surprise, surprise you can't supply a link. Jonathan Davies said he got some verbals on twitter. The old death threats seem to be a Welsh thing as both Austin Healy and Alain Rolland would tell you.

Funny that google doesn't throw up death threats to Gatland, but does for Austin Healy and Rolland - and both from Welsh supporters.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/authors/austin-healey/dont-send-me-death-threats-but-i-believe-740428

http://metro.co.uk/2011/10/16/rugby-world-cup-semi-final-referee-alain-rolland-receives-death-threats-185533/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/10258206/Jonathan-Davies-victim-of-Twitter-abuse-and-threats-after-displacing-Brian-ODriscoll-in-Lions-side-for-deciding-Test.html

How is it a Welsh thing when the Irish have made them against Gatland on a number of occasions? You even alluded to an incident yourself. Idiots logic from Sin again

mikey_dragon wrote:How is it a Welsh thing when the Irish have made them against Gatland on a number of occasions? You even alluded to an incident yourself. Idiots logic from Sin again

Did Gatland really receive death threats? Hilarious if he did.

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:And when Gatland didn't select more Irish players before going on to drop BOD in 2013 he got death threats.

Any links to that? Who made them? Were the police involved? Or are you just making stuff up?

edit: Irish people don't get too worked up by players not being selected for the Lions. Its not such a big deal over here.

Really?? Seem to remember Irish fans and ex players spitting their dummies out when BOD got dropped. Anyway who cares it was years ago and the decision was justified to drop him for Roberts.

mikey_dragon wrote:How is it a Welsh thing when the Irish have made them against Gatland on a number of occasions? You even alluded to an incident yourself. Idiots logic from Sin again

Because you are making it up about Gatland getting death threats for not picking Irish players or for dropping BOD. You are unable to provide any quotes from Gatland or Davies or iinks to reports that they received them.

You have claimed Jonathan Davies got death threats. According to him, he got some verbals on twitter and the worst was someone threatened to break his legs. That is not a death threat.

Gatland & Donal Lenihan got real death threats from loyalist paramilitaries (through the IRFU/Guardai) during the Troubles in Northern Ireland. That is a completely different thing to someone having a go on twitter.

True Raven wrote:

Sin é wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:And when Gatland didn't select more Irish players before going on to drop BOD in 2013 he got death threats.

Any links to that? Who made them? Were the police involved? Or are you just making stuff up?

edit: Irish people don't get too worked up by players not being selected for the Lions. Its not such a big deal over here.

Really?? Seem to remember Irish fans and ex players spitting their dummies out when BOD got dropped.  Anyway who cares it was years ago and the decision was justified to drop him for Roberts.

THere is a difference in not selecting and dropping someone. Personally, I didn't have a problem with him dropping BOD, what I thought was a disgrace was the horrible and humiliating way he did it. You may recall that Heaslip was also dropped and no one got worked up about that.

Pot Hale wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:How is it a Welsh thing when the Irish have made them against Gatland on a number of occasions? You even alluded to an incident yourself. Idiots logic from Sin again

Did Gatland really receive death threats?    Hilarious if he did.

Not funny at all considering who they were coming from! Its in Donal Lenihan autobiography. The Examiner published an extract from it. I've put a link in the Provincial thread.

Regardless of who is right about any of this, it speaks volumes that Gatland is so controversial among different fans.

For previous tours (even 2013), I can remember lively debate among fans of different countries about who should be in the squad and who should tour, but never this level of divided opinion about a coach.

And before someone says Woodward... there was controversy over his selections and on the tour, but not this early, and afterwards everyone agrees that the tour was a disaster. We can't even agree how successful the 2013 tour was, and the Lions won.

Poorfour wrote:Regardless of who is right about any of this, it speaks volumes that Gatland is so controversial among different fans.

For previous tours (even 2013), I can remember lively debate among fans of different countries about who should be in the squad and who should tour, but never this level of divided opinion about a coach.

And before someone says Woodward... there was controversy over his selections and on the tour, but not this early, and afterwards everyone agrees that the tour was a disaster. We can't even agree how successful the 2013 tour was, and the Lions won.

2001 was seen as a bad tour... I wonder how much that viewpoint would have differed had they not lost that last min lineout on the AUS line? Had Gatland lost the final test no one would have let him forget his wholesale changes in the 3rd test... his choke.

Lions teams have no natural order built in. You have often 3 players thinking they should be the ones who get the jersey. All 3 have valid reasons why and therefore when they don't get selected they and fans react. Sometimes coaches don't make the right decisions... hell Geechs made terrible ones throughout his tenure but made a number of excellent ones too. Even when coaches make the right decisions its scourned at.

I have been a big supporter of the lions but I do question its merits. Before getting a SH series win was unheard of for a home nations side. This year we saw AUS get whitewashed and SA were very lucky to crawl to the line. Had IRE had a fully fit compliment of players they would have won... maybe 3-0 also.
If so whats the point of the Lions? In the past it was the touring team of the home nations.... the home nations teams didn't really tour until the mid 80s.

Its the same in SA when you only were known as a springbok if you toured abroad... you played for SA at home... didn't used to count to being called a springbok.

The risks for the players are huge... they get injured on someone else's watch... their confidence is shot if they lose out in a 1-1 battle for a jersey, their injuries stack up often as they play up to 7 games when normally they might play 3 at the max for their national side. Some guys spend years recovering both physically and mentally.

I do wonder if we should lay the lions to rest for a final time in 2017. SA in 2021 probably won't be a challenge at all. Sad times but that's the state of the game today.

Are we really still talking about BOD vs JD2?? It's the 19th September 2016.

In the words of Frozen: Let It Go.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Are we really still talking about BOD vs JD2?? It's the 19th September 2016.

In the words of Frozen: Let It Go.

last week it was Bryne vs. Kearney 2009.

Next week it will be Simon Geoghegan being left out in 1993 when half those arguing for such were probably younger than 10 when the tour occurred.

fa0019 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Are we really still talking about BOD vs JD2?? It's the 19th September 2016.

In the words of Frozen: Let It Go.

last week it was Bryne vs. Kearney 2009.

Next week it will be Simon Geoghegan being left out in 1993 when half those arguing for such were probably younger than 10 when the tour occurred.

I personally think Willie John McBride was lucky to be selected for the Lions. A classic example of tokenism.....

Simon Geoghegan was left out of the Lions in 93 as his name was clearly too difficult to spell on the team sheet.

Discuss.

I am no fan of Gatland but at least they won in 2013. Imagine the furore if they lost.

beshocked wrote:I am no fan of Gatland but at least they won in 2013. Imagine the furore if they lost.

Right this moment. A lot less, as he would not have been selected for this one

beshocked wrote:I am no fan of Gatland but at least they won in 2013. Imagine the furore if they lost.

It doesn't bear thinking about! A whole industry would have been developed simply to wipe away the tears of outrage from the face of Keith Wood.

Riskysports wrote:

beshocked wrote:I am no fan of Gatland but at least they won in 2013. Imagine the furore if they lost.

Right this moment. A lot less, as he would not have been selected for this one

Yeah and who wouldve been instead, Rob Howley?

I think all we can say about 2013 is well done Gatland and the Welsh Lions. We can also say unlucky the Irish and BOD .

mikey_dragon wrote:I think all we can say about 2013 is well done Gatland and the Welsh Lions. We can also say unlucky the Irish and BOD .

Shame you couldn't do it before and after on your own mind... perhaps Wales provided the bulk of the test players but without the others would you have won the series or even a test? Given AUS have beaten Wales 8 times in a row prior to the series and the 3 tests since I think its fair to say you would have failed once more.

Shame you still have to hang on to the coat-tails of SA because your own team can't beat sh*t, never mind beating Wales. Didn't intend on hooking you with that one btw, so this is a bonus. Ta-ra.

George Carlin wrote:Simon Geoghegan was left out of the Lions in 93 as his name was clearly too difficult to spell on the team sheet.

That's what they told Peetah Wheelur in 1983.

rather be a crap over achieving side then a good under achieving one. Hell even Samoa have beaten AUS at home in the last few years, can't remember the team that hasn't been able to though, not from the lack of talent mind... from a tendancy to choke rather

fa0019 that might well be the case but the four nations have to unite and try to beat NZ.

I would probably go with mostly English forwards (if they are in form/fit) and a mix of backs from all 4 countries.

I didn't mind 2013 have more Welsh players because in general IMO deserved more.

This time I think more English players will warrant selection. Different to 2005 as most of the players are young, not over the hill.

Biggest worry I think would be if Gatland champions the likes of Lydiate and Roberts. Roberts has been a good servant for Wales and I like him but he's a limited player. Lydiate IMO is an one dimensional tackle machine.

Wales do have some players I rate though and if they are in form would happily see the likes of AWJ,Charteris,Warburton,Faletau,North,Webb etc feature in the squad.

Hope Gatland doesn't pick Moriarty either. I just don't rate him.

fa0019 wrote: rather be a crap over achieving side then a good under achieving one. Hell even Samoa have beaten AUS at home in the last few years, can't remember the team that hasn't been able to though, not from the lack of talent mind... from a tendancy to choke rather

Too bad your real team is neither.

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote: rather be a crap over achieving side then a good under achieving one. Hell even Samoa have beaten AUS at home in the last few years, can't remember the team that hasn't been able to though, not from the lack of talent mind... from a tendancy to choke rather

Too bad your real team is neither.

best performing home nations team in the last RWC. Not bad for a crap side.

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote: rather be a crap over achieving side then a good under achieving one. Hell even Samoa have beaten AUS at home in the last few years, can't remember the team that hasn't been able to though, not from the lack of talent mind... from a tendancy to choke rather

Too bad your real team is neither.

best performing home nations team in the last RWC. Not bad for a crap side.

No they weren't. Not bad but didn't really get better, in fact things got worse.

fa0019 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

fa0019 wrote: rather be a crap over achieving side then a good under achieving one. Hell even Samoa have beaten AUS at home in the last few years, can't remember the team that hasn't been able to though, not from the lack of talent mind... from a tendancy to choke rather

Too bad your real team is neither.

best performing home nations team in the last RWC. Not bad for a crap side.

To be fair Ireland and Wales made the quarter finals to so you were all equal. England were clearly the worst performing of course but then again if you put Scotland in England's group.....

Sadly none of us were good enough to beat any of the tri nations.

You should have thrown the lineout to one of the Gray bros.

fa0019 wrote:best performing home nations team in the last RWC. Not bad for a crap side.

Not that I like to side with him.

But how did Scotland out perform Wales in the last WC ? We both got to the quarters. We both narrowly lost our games. So, I would say Scotland and Wales were the joint best performing home nations team in the last WC.

Come on guys it's like beggars fighting over scraps - the 6 nations were all pretty poor in the RWC. The tri nations and Argentina dominated us.

We at least acknowledged how bad we were hence getting a new coach, hey presto - GS, 3-0 away win in Australia.

I've said it many times. Wales should have got rid of Gatland by now.

Get rid of the plucky losers tag, become arrogant winners instead.

beshocked wrote:I am no fan of Gatland but at least they won in 2013. Imagine the furore if they lost.

We don't have to imagine. Graham Henry led that one in 2001.

I've said before on here that Woodward is given a lot of stick because memories aren't so fresh of so many other awful tours.

There's a strong folk memory of 1971, especially because of the Barbarians game which followed. Then there was the '74 unbeaten tour, which is where McGeechan learned about the Lions. Most of the Lions backstory comes from those two tours because not enough people really remember them before that, and there's no also footage of any note.

After that, however, 1977 fell apart, when a win was a realistic expectation. 1980 was an embarrassing tour to South Africa which shouldn't have taken place, and nobody cares to remember. Funny how there are never highlights of 1980 in the Lions preview trailers. 1983 was a shambles. Irish fans here have put me right before on some aspects of how that tour came about, but the net result remains the same.

Then we get the 1989 tour, which finally evoked memories of 1971 and 1974 again but the follow-up in 1993 was a mid-week mess.

1997 is probably the modern high point for the Lions because we won, and there was a great video. 2001 disappointed everybody expect Australia, and then 2005 came along to nearly kick the idea into touch.

Poorfour wrote:Regardless of who is right about any of this, it speaks volumes that Gatland is so controversial among different fans.

.......................

I think that is for two reasons
1) many of us think he nearly lost the last series with poor selections and tactics
2) we think he will follow the same pattern this time meaning we will underperform badly

However - he hasn't made his selections yet so lets see.