England's Autumn selections

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

I can't see there being many surprises in the squad Tbh

Consistency, like Lancaster worked on, is important for getting players familiar with systems. And Eddie seems to like systems.
As it progresses we may see changes but not directly after a 3-0 win in Australia! Keep the momentum going.

Only injuries will cause changes.

What about Guy Thompson the Wasps 7...

He was very good at No8 against us.

Both Guy & Sam Jones are doing a great job for us so far this season.
Guy would be a good stop gap but I think he is 30 so that may count against him if EJs wants to look at bringing in someone for the future

So in general is everyone happy with the rest of the XV ...is it 6/7 and 12 that's the main concerns?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So in general is everyone happy with the rest of the XV ...is it 6/7 and 12 that's the main concerns?

Wing fullback might have been an issue but it does seem that Brown is back and Roko is the obvious choice on the other wing from Watson

Hasn't that been the issue with England for a number of years? Nothing changes really
Balance of the back row, 6.5 debate and centres combination especially 12.

Watson struggled a bit in that game against Tigers....although I think that was his 1st game back. So needs another game or so to click perhaps. Roko looked potent, although apparently feedback from EJ to Roko was that he wanted to see more of him in defence.
The other competitors for wing are
Yarde - didn't play last weekend
Ashton - naughty nibbler, but still has England ambition
Not many others playing yet.......
Nowell and May injured

That's very true....those spots always seem to be talking points!

LIW - Yes I think in general those spots are fine. We have plenty of good wingers...hell Marcus Watson at the falcons has been very good all last season...at a last resort I would have NO problems with him...if it was needed (which it wont be)!

Full back, yeah maybe a little more restricted...Brown looks to be coming back, and young Haley seems to be a real star in the making. And theres Alex Goode if we are struggling who is a European and Prem League winner!

propdavid_london wrote:Watson struggled a bit in that game against Tigers....although I think that was his 1st game back.  So needs another game or so to click perhaps.  Roko looked potent, although apparently feedback from EJ to Roko was that he wanted to see more of him in defence.  
The other competitors for wing are
Yarde - didn't play last weekend
Ashton - naughty nibbler, but still has England ambition
Not many others playing yet.......
Nowell and May injured

Yeah I heard that ...and it seems absolutely ludicrous!

Well, I guess there are similarities to Wade - you'd expect him to have similar feedback from EJ.
Both are pretty electric ball in hand. Wades issues seem to be more positional, rather than commitment (easily coachable).
Although I have to admit that I haven't seen any obvious issues with Roko's defence!

May is apparently back to full training, so we should see him in the next couple of weeks .. probably a bit too soon for SA, but he might be back in the mix for the last couple of games

Something tells me that the squad will be selected for the Nov tests and there wont be much movement in or out of it for the series - barring injury.
The focus will be on May to prove form and fitness to selectors though - after a long lay off I am sure he will just be happy to be on the pitch at all.

propdavid_london wrote:Watson struggled a bit in that game against Tigers....although I think that was his 1st game back.  So needs another game or so to click perhaps.  Roko looked potent, although apparently feedback from EJ to Roko was that he wanted to see more of him in defence.  
The other competitors for wing are
Yarde - didn't play last weekend
Ashton - naughty nibbler, but still has England ambition
Not many others playing yet.......
Nowell and May injured

And banned ofc so won't be in the mix for the Autumn (or probably ever now)

Is Yarde playing?

Jones seemed to be quite a fan of his...

Didn't play in the sarries game - last min drop out from throat infection (or something to that effect).
He did well in that 1st test against OZ, then wasn't selected for the last 2 (think that was injury though - not sure) - or was it because Nowell wasn't available!

Yarde definitely gets stuck in - carries a lot - but doesn't seem to score many tries (for a wing).

I still think it'll be Watson and Roko on the wings.

propdavid_london wrote:Didn't play in the sarries game - last min drop out from throat infection (or something to that effect).
He did well in that 1st test against OZ, then wasn't selected for the last 2 (think that was injury though - not sure) - or was it because Nowell wasn't available!

Yarde definitely gets stuck in - carries a lot - but doesn't seem to score many tries (for a wing).

He did show up well in that first test and did a lot more work than I expected, but Nowell wasn't fully fit (I think he came on as a sub late on?) and he duly took his place back for the last 2 games.

Please stay fit Mike Brown.....

Its Brown then Haley isn't it?

Could you see Haley starting a game in the AI's?

I don't think he has played a game since the Saxons tour where he was injured!
So I think its unlikely that he will get a look in - current options will be Brown and Goode with the possibility of Watson covering. Unless EJ goes off piste and picks someone like Cips to cover 15.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its Brown then Haley isn't it?

Could you see Haley starting a game in the AI's?

Couldn't see him starting, could see him coming on from the bench and possibly hanging on to the shirt.

More likely if Brown is unavailable and he's replacing Goode. Brown looked a bit off the pace in attack at the weekend (though against the Sarries defence - and also did an excellent job of drawing his man and [gasps] passing for Walker's try), but more assured in defence and the air than he has done for a while.

Brown I am sure was still recovering from a stint in hospital from a pretty serious infection. If he is starting this week against wasps then I expect there to be further improvement.
But you are right, he was a little off colour but showed enough for the supporters to think that he is getting back to his old self.
Barring injury I suspect EJ will stick with Brown.
I am not sure what Mike Haleys expected return to play is - but I don't think that he has played yet this season.

On a different note, what do people think of Rob Miller? He's got gas to burn and seems to be playing well in a firing Wasps side. Limited exposure last season then Piatou was sensational but seems like he is doing well - thought that he might have gotten a Saxons call up! What do you guys think of him? International contention or just a good club man?

Richard Hill has been announced as team manager for England.

Previously tour manager for the Saxons - looks like a good appointment.
Hopefully can impart some pearls of wisdom in the process to the youth.......Clifford, Harrison, Underhill, Itoje (probably done that already with Sarries).

Jones added: "Richard's responsibilities will range from maintaining England Rugby's internal and external relationships to providing mentoring and support for players and management.

What does this actually mean ...

BamBam wrote:

Jones added: "Richard's responsibilities will range from maintaining England Rugby's internal and external relationships to providing mentoring and support for players and management.

What does this actually mean ...

Irons their kit and reads bed time stories I think.

Robson is far and away the most consistent SH & I haven't seen any weaknesses to his game at all since he came to Wasps.
Care & Youngs have both been hit and miss this season but even at their best I wouldn't put either in front of Dan.

The irony would be if he gets picked to go on the Lions tour at the expense of Youngs/Care.

Right now I could see Gats picking him with Webb & Murray.

Is he another RFU liaison with PRL and the clubs...Is the judge for all kangaroo court cases

BamBam wrote:

Jones added: "Richard's responsibilities will range from maintaining England Rugby's internal and external relationships to providing mentoring and support for players and management.

What does this actually mean ...

Read it as a guy to go to for any help needed, personally, rugby related etc. Not attached to making decisions on team so not going to get people upset from dropping them.

Agree with that Big Trev - Robson could be pushed into a starting berth for the AIs.  But I suspect that he is more likely to sit on the bench in place of Danny and/or Ben.  Depending on how serious the rib injury is to Care there may not even be a decision to make!

Danny out and the 2 no.9s would be Youngs and Robson - question would be who is 3rd choice?
Simpson/Chudley/Sam Harrison/Ben Spencer?

Hopefully not Mickey Young (sorry Michael)

I'd lean towards Spencer, but is he getting enough game time?

I've seen him in 1 game so far - coming off the bench - I think that he scored a great try.
Surely Simpson is next in line - definitely behind Robson in my mind though.

Robson and Simpson are both very good.

I do think Simpson gets a harsh deal on here, his all round game has improved massively and it's not a coincidence that this last couple of seasons wasps have got better as he's matured. He's still lightning quick too. I'd love to see him off the bench for England.

New article in the Torygraph, my saes mate says they are normally spot on

Danny Cipriani left out in the cold as England look to Alex Lozowski

munkian wrote:New article in the Torygraph, my saes mate says they are normally spot on

Danny Cipriani left out in the cold as England look to Alex Lozowski

Yes, though their list of possibles and probables is distinctly dubious. 44 "probables" and 16 "possibles" for a 45-man squad, and numerous players labelled "world class" before they've even been capped. Hmmm... a bit too much froth and not enough sober analysis.

I didn't say it was a well written article but their predictions are usually eerily accurate.

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-names-elite-player-squad-ahead-autumn-series/

37 players attending Brighton training camp from 2-4 October

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints) *injury replacement for James Haskell (Wasps)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

Sam Jones (Wasps)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Tommy Taylor (Wasps)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Ollie Devoto (Exeter Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins) *injury replacement for Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Morgan eh?

Alex Lozowski is in the 45 man EPS (not the 37 man training squad) which is a full-on snub for Cipriani. I see Tom Youngs has dropped out of the picture again.

Wonder if Morgan being in means Hughes is being seen as a blindside

Video on the RFU website suggested that Hughes is competing with Billy V for a back row spot.
Also ruled out Robshaw filling in at no.7 - he is now firmly a 6 apparently. Emphasis is on Mike Williams, Sam Jones and Harrison to fight it out.
Morgan coming in is an interesting one

LCD out, Mullan out. Genge and Sinkler both left out
Marchant still in the setup?

The full 45 man squad is:


45-man elite player squad:

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor (Wasps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Italics = Training Camp

Also in the camp but not in the EPS:
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints) - injury replacement for Haskell
Ben Morgan (Gloucester) - injury replacement for Clifford
Ollie Devoto (Exeter) - injury replacement for Manu
Marland Yarde (Harlequins) - injury replacement for Jonny May

So is this new Training camp not the AI squad?

Rugby Fan wrote:Alex Lozowski is in the 45 man EPS (not the 37 man training squad) which is a full-on snub for Cipriani. I see Tom Youngs has dropped out of the picture again.

To be honest it might be a calculated move to stop Italy poaching him. Conor O Shea was interested.

Got to say Cipriani is unlucky. Bit of magic vs Saints really helped Wasps get into the game. Could well be try of the season already.

propdavid_london wrote:So is this new Training camp not the AI squad?

The training camp is indeed effectively the AI squad. However Eddie can call up anyone from the extended squad for extra training sessions and anyone at all for the period classed by RFU as the AI window.

Good and bad news for Teimana Harrison as while he is in the AI squad, he drops out of the EPS when Haskell is fit.

Perhaps EJ has asked for consistency from Cips.....if he can keep up standards then he may be in consideration for the 6N.
Farrell has credit in the bank, Ford has show glimpses of old form back, Slade is the back up but recently performed as a 12.
Its unlikely that EJ will bump either of those 3 unless he has to.
Freddie Burns is doing well for Tigers at the moment so it might just be a waiting game for Danny C.

propdavid_london wrote:So is this new Training camp not the AI squad?

It's not totally clear. Possibly. Some players (like Haskell) are there because Eddie wants their input as senior players, others (sez Eddie) haven't met Eddie's standards and aren't in the EPS but are there as injury cover (not sure what that means in terms of their chances for the autumn), some EPS players aren't in the training camp at all - primarily the less senior injured players (Clifford, Tuilagi) and the fringe players (Evans, Genge, Sinckler, Haley, Lozowski). I'd guess the players who are fit but not in camp are those he sees as longer term developments.

The really interesting cases are the intersection of new/EPS/training camp:
- Beaumont
- Hughes
- Jones
- Taylor
- Williams

- Marchant
- Robson.

I guess Beaumont, Hughes, Taylor and Robson have been expected for a while; Eddie mentioned Hughes as competing with Billy. Jones and Williams have an excellent opportunity in Haskell's absence. Interesting that Marchant is in the "training camp" group rather than the longer term group, given Daly, Faz, Joseph, Slade, Te'o and Devoto are also all in camp.

Rugby Fan wrote:Alex Lozowski is in the 45 man EPS (not the 37 man training squad) which is a full-on snub for Cipriani. I see Tom Youngs has dropped out of the picture again.

Dropped out in favour of Tommy Taylor who has been very good for Wasps so far and was generally underrated at Sale.

I think Williams could be seen as the bench option if Launchbury isn't fit. He covers lock and 6 and plays the aggressive style Jones likes.

PropDavid, Ford was very good for Bath against Tigers last weekend (apart from off the tee) but was hampered by having no real midfield and a pack that lost both the breakdown and the lineout battle.

Well if Harrison takes any chance when he is there then he needs to make himself un-droppable! Its no different to any of the other fringe players.
How long is Hask out for?

Picking from the italics - for Fiji I would quite like to see something like this -

Marler, George, Hill, Launchbury, Lawes, N,Hughes, Mike Williams, Billy V, Robson, Yarde, Ford, Slade, Daly, Rokko, Goode

Bigger tests something like
Mako V, Hartley, Cole, Kruis, Itoje, Robshaw, Harrison, Billy V, Youngs, Ford, Nowell, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Brown

With plenty of combinations on the benches.

That's 2 pretty strong 15s