England's Autumn selections

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

SecretFly wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Its a milder version of the SAS selection debate.  Applicants have died during the selection process while experiencing extreme conditions.  General public say it should be properly risk assessed - Selectors say that's how they determine who has the right stuff!

The SAS, having existed for a long time and having amassed tons of information on how men cope with stress and battle and deprivation and interrogation and so on.  The issue people would have is that they should know about heat exhaustion and what it does to a body rapidly dehydrating under strenuous and hot conditions.  Pushing men to that extreme does not assess abilty, all it says is that some men were lucky enough not to be hit with the full force of severe heat stroke and a few unlucky souls were.  You can be as able and fit as you like but if your chemistry cooks, it cooks and you die.  You can't train a soldier how to adjust chemistry and survive, you can't tell him to man up and "recover now!!!'  'Recover now, that is an order!"

The SAS should know enough about things to have had a more rigorous continuous health assessment during those exercises.  The object is to teach a soldier what to expect and harden him to what's expected. Killing him is a bad assessment strategy not the uncovering of a weak soldier.

A lot of the men push themselves to the limit and when they hit the limit they don't want anyone to know, so keep on smiling. Of course there are safety measures in place such as check points and each man has a man down safety button that alerts to an issue. Also there are other safety measures in place by the MOD, namely when two men fall ill (I mean fall ill, not die) they cancel the trek - unfortunately the folks running it last time didn't follow those processes.

It's not all about chemistry, you can train your body to adapt to those conditions. But I do agree they need to monitor the temperature more

Nowell also picked up a torn quad at England's training camp

Exeter director of rugby Rob Baxter said Nowell will be "out for weeks".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37597325

Roko and Yarde for the AIs? Yarde looked good for Quins today.

Roko and Yarde are a pretty handy combo but they are a step down from our best options

To lose one player may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose two looks like carelessness; to lose three is just dopey.

Really hope no-one thinks "Hey, Mike Brown has played on the wing at Test level".

Roko and Yarde have both looked sharp so far but we've effectively been playing with three full backs under Jones. Jones could yet try and find the personnel for a similar configuration - Daly could be pressed into action on one wing - or just go for his best specialist wingers and tweak the gameplan.

Baxter's reaction was somewhere between Dai Young's measured response and McCall's fury. He's irritated that England sent Nowell back saying he was basically fine. Certainly, England wouldn't have had time to do the scan which finally showed the problem but they might have suggested to his team that they should do one.

kingelderfield wrote:Wade is too good for this England side.

Simpson, Cipriani, Eastmond & Wade.

None are any good and so will have to play for that bunch of duffers who've been sent to coventry.

This Saturday will once again prove how poor they all are.

That obviously should read 'Sunday' as in today's match.

If Wasps forwards can compete and provide some parity of possession, then I'm really hoping that the greater creativity of their back line will shine on this small plastic pitch.

Wade for England.......no chance, even Sharples is a head of him.

Come on you Wasps. It's time to turn Eddie's head in what is undoubtedly the English trial match.

p.s what price Lozowski plays a blinder as well?

Shout out for Simon McIntyre?

I think he should be in EJ's thinking, has bags of ability and has to be challenging for an international call up in the next 12 months?

I reckon this will be his break through season.

Yarde and Brown will be nailed on if fit given their current form. Looks like EJ will have to decide who his next favourite winger is though....Roko I suspect.

With Nowell and Watson unavailable, I expect EJ to go with Rokoduguni and Yarde with Joseph covering wing in case of injury.

Wade just dosn't have a hope of playing for England.

Of course if we want to beat NZ then we'll require a back line that not only negates but actually executes opportunities and scores TRIES!!!

KingElderfield's available selection;

Youngs
Ford
Wade
Malinder
Joseph
Rokoduguni
Brown

Simpson
Cipriani
Slade

No Robson? I think he's the one who should be pushing hardest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No Robson? I think he's the one who should be pushing hardest.

Splitting hairs I know, but I reckon he still fannies around to much at the breakdown, where as Simpson either gets rid of it or kicks it like a donkey or has the pace of a winger to exploit the gap, especially when sides are either knackered or disjointed following second half replacements.

Youngs annoyingly still does it on the big stage. Just look back at the Ozy tests, he played on one leg at the end of the prem season then 10 days with England and he's on another level. One day this won't happen and we'll move on but for now the shirt is his to lose.

Good to see yo're still monitoring my posts

Yeah I tend to read posts, bizarre on a forum I know.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah I tend to read posts, bizarre on a forum I know.

Good one, but back to the rugby.

Do you think Wade has a snow flakes chance or with it be Roko and Yarde?

I love Wade's attacking threat but he's still a problem in defence, mainly just due to the lads size. I can't see him realistically being involved but stranger things have happened.

I'd take Robson every time over Simpson. Robson has a much better pass and has real spacial awareness that Simpson just lacks. I'd love to see Robson in the 23, he's a class act.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I love Wade's attacking threat but he's still a problem in defence, mainly just due to the lads size. I can't see him realistically being involved but stranger things have happened.

I'd take Robson every time over Simpson. Robson has a much better pass and has real spacial awareness that Simpson just lacks. I'd love to see Robson in the 23, he's a class act.

It's ironic, though arguably correct, that you quote 'spacial awareness' as a plus for Robson and but that its a minus for Wade - though I understand that's not what you said or meant.

Re Robson I do get what you're saying but what I like about Simpson is his USP, his point of difference, and its this that works for Youngs and Care with England and equally for Robson and Simpson as a combination at club level with Wasps.

For me Robson is Youngs x 2 and though that is no bad thing in itself (Robson's game is undoubtedly more rounded and solid than Simpson's), what I like about Simpson is that he is Care extra not just a facsimile. His speed to the breakdown and for the gap is beyond all his rivals and his kicking is remarkedly strong.

We're going to need special and different players to compete at the highest level and Simpson is exceptional.

As for Wade, its interesting because I've read a few times recently about his weakness to the high ball and yet against the Saints recently he challenged Foden and salmon like he leapt so his feet were by comparison at Fodens chest. Bloody impressive for a wee fella.

So the issue is simply a coaching matter not an inability.

It seems to be that initially it was his positioning that was the issue and this was corrected and then it was his defense and that was corrected and now its his weakness under the high ball.......

The thing is a season or two ago, probably three or four I saw a Wasps verses Gloucester game were Wade did Simpson-Daniel and scored and I thought to my self, that that was it, that was the passing of the baton. There you go son from the most talented attacking player of one generation to the next the gift has has been given.....and do you know what I think with all the wonderful talent that was transferred so has all the shoddy crappy conservative BS as well.

Wade would be an All Black.

Telegraph reporting that Mike Williams has a nerve injury to the arm he broke last year. Not yet clear how serious it is, but that's 5 potential flankers injured.

Itoje/Robshaw as left and right is looking more likely. Who's next in line for the bench? I can't see him putting Billy and Hughes in the same XXIII, even against South Africa, or playing Harrison at this stage. I think James Chisholm might be the only remaining fit option in the training squad.

I think he will have Hughes on the bench, covering 8 with Billy going to 6. He's just too much talent to leave out of the 23.

Lets see how it goes today?

AB's have more than attacking threat. They have a rounded game with few weaknesses in defence. Look at NMS, Saves, Naholo, Jane, Smith.....all can defend.

23 for SA

Brown
Yarde
Joseph
Farrell/Slade
Roko
Ford
Youngs
Vunipola
Kvesic/Robshaw
Robshaw/Itoje
Itoje/Launchbury
Kruis
Cole
Hartley/George
Vunipola

Marler/Genge, George/Taylor, Hill, Launchbury/Lawes, Hughes, Robson, Goode, Daly

ChequeredJersey wrote:23 for SA

Brown
Yarde
Joseph
Farrell/Slade
Roko
Ford
Youngs
Vunipola
Kvesic/Robshaw
Robshaw/Itoje
Itoje/Launchbury
Kruis
Cole
Hartley/George
Vunipola

Marler/Genge, George/Taylor, Hill, Launchbury/Lawes, Hughes, Robson, Goode, Daly

Looks pretty good to me.

ChequeredJersey wrote:23 for SA

Brown
Yarde
Joseph
Farrell/Slade
Roko
Ford
Youngs
Vunipola
Kvesic/Robshaw
Robshaw/Itoje
Itoje/Launchbury
Kruis
Cole
Hartley/George
Vunipola

Marler/Genge, George/Taylor, Hill, Launchbury/Lawes, Hughes, Robson, Goode, Daly

What you want to see, or expect to see? All plausible for both, excerpt Kvesic, who doesn't seem to be on Jones' radar.

Rugby Fan wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:23 for SA

Brown
Yarde
Joseph
Farrell/Slade
Roko
Ford
Youngs
Vunipola
Kvesic/Robshaw
Robshaw/Itoje
Itoje/Launchbury
Kruis
Cole
Hartley/George
Vunipola

Marler/Genge, George/Taylor, Hill, Launchbury/Lawes, Hughes, Robson, Goode, Daly

What you want to see, or expect to see? All plausible for both, excerpt Kvesic, who doesn't seem to be on Jones' radar.

We've basically run out of players who are though

Sgt_Pooly wrote:AB's have more than attacking threat. They have a rounded game with few weaknesses in defence. Look at NMS, Saves, Naholo, Jane, Smith.....all can defend.

All have defensive strengths but barring Smith (and in days past Jane) all have weaknesses as most wingers do. Savea is capable of fantastic tackles but also liable for poor positioning, lazy tracking and rushing out the line (similar to criticism leveled at Manu for defence). Naholo isn't a particularly good defender and can be targetted by good kickers. Milner-Skudder is similar to Anthony Wastson as a defender in that his positioning is solid, he's good under a high ball and his pace makes him a good cover defender but actually in a front on tackle he is pretty weak.

I've said it many times but barring Nowell none of the wingers high up the England pecking order are all round good defenders.

Roko is probably next closest to Nowell due to his bulk making him very strong in contact but he often rushes out of position.
Watson as said is good positionally and under a high ball but misses a fair few one on one tackles.
Yarde, Ashton and Wade all have issues in positioning, tackling and under the high ball but all have also impoved IMO.
Jonny May's defending is like a lot off his game, all the pieces are there (positioning, high ball work, tackling are all usually solid) but every now and then all of them can come apart.

With Nowell and Watson out I'd be just as comfortable with Wade's defence as Yarde's against a top side who will target wide channels and isolate wingers when they get quick ball.

I can't agree, I don't think Wade is anywhere as defensively sound as any AB winger.

Yarde has looked pretty solid so far this season, and I have to say that Wade looked much better on the Saxons tour than I have ever seen him before.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I can't agree, I don't think Wade is anywhere as defensively sound as any AB winger.

Neither do I Sarge. I'm just making my usual argument that neither are any of our other wingers (or the ones of EJs radar) barring Nowell and Roko.

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I can't agree, I don't think Wade is anywhere as defensively sound as any AB winger.

Neither do I Sarge. I'm just making my usual argument that neither are any of our other wingers (or the ones of EJs radar) barring Nowell and Roko.

Apologies Carlos, I thought that is what you were pointing at. I agree they all have their faults, I just think Wade is a little weaker (and smaller) than our other options.

He is but has made huge strides defensively. He's no longer our worst and is actually quite good. Yes there is that fear what would he do against Folou with a cross field kick but vice versa I don't think (m)any players would stop him one on one.Worth a punt now. If not now he'll never play for England (again).

I wouldn't worry, there is still the first two rounds of European matches for a couple more injuries to our prominent wingers. Have no fear though, we could always put Mike Brown there and move Alex Goode to start at fullback...

The injury list do seem to be stacking up!
Williams from Tigers sounds serious.
Nowell is out again.
Care still hasn't played following rib injury

This will be a case of last man standing will get capped.

At the moment it looks like starting wings will be Yarde and Rokko - who covers from the bench?

Brown and Joseph have both covered wing before - Both are likely starting squad too.

Perhaps that's why Eliot Daly will likely be on the bench too.

Marcus Watson....and Kibirige are just priming themselves for the next few games to show how good they are....

Well at least we can try out our much vaunted "strength in depth"

At this rate...Wade and Kvesic WILL get games because there'll be no one else.

Maybe even Mark Wilson will finally get the recognition he deserves!

Luckily at wing we do have depth.

There is depth (or at least options) in the back row, even if we end up with a compromise selection.

In Slade we do at least have a likish for likish option for Farrell (and there are alternatives, like Te'o or bananaman)

But the status of one player is starting to really concern me, a player who has been crucial to our progress to date. And that is Dylan Hartley.

I know we have George who is a very good playing replacement but who is captain then? Surely it will be too soon for Itoje (and anyway he will be too busy taking the penalty kicks in the absence of Farrell)

If Launchbury was to start he could be captain...but not sure he'll budge a settle Itoje and Kruis combo. (Unless Itoje is moved to 6)

Id rather stay away from Itoje just yet. He's a dead cert to be captain for a long time...but at the moment let him just focus on the continued development and progress of his game at international level.

Mike brown is an experienced part of the squad. Robshaw temporarily?

Ben Youngs has captaincy experience....
I would expect Robshaw whould likely take over as a temp.

Won't it more likely be one of the vice captains? I'd be tempted to just throw it to Itoje though.

Who were the VC's?

Billy and Farrell

Yes if Farrell is fit he could do it. Billy would be fine aswell.

I guess putting Itoje in could mean that Jamie George can stake his claim as Englands best hooker...which I firmly believe he is now.

Billy it is then No problems there.
There is also the leadership group to support. George starting shouldn't be a big problem either....I hope.

BamBam wrote:Billy and Farrell

And Brown. Though I prefer my captains from the pack.

I'd be happy with Itoje as captain backed up by the VCs. Might as well give him a taste early. If he takes to it well, then it gives some flex on hooker, too.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I can't agree, I don't think Wade is anywhere as defensively sound as any AB winger.

Neither do I Sarge. I'm just making my usual argument that neither are any of our other wingers (or the ones of EJs radar) barring Nowell and Roko.

Apologies Carlos, I thought that is what you were pointing at. I agree they all have their faults, I just think Wade is a little weaker (and smaller) than our other options.

I can't remember who, but during a post match analysis of a televised game a couple of years ago a pundit (maybe Greenwood I'm tempted to say) asked the question of how different the perception of many 'small' players would be if they were 6 inches taller but making the exact same contributions. I.e. making and missing the exact same tackles, hitting rucks with the same exact same impact, carrying with the same effectiveness in contact, etc.

Wade is one of the players this applies very well too for me. If he were 6 inches taller but with the exactly same defensive lapses AND same attacking threat I think the downsides would have been overlooked. He'd likely have then had a consistent run for England and given his finishing an impressive haul of tries to go with it.

I'm not arguing he's a good defender, I just think that the difference in his defence and many others when they first came into international rugby is not that big. Obvious cases I'd make are Watson's once revolving door tackling (improved a lot in last 12 months as a key England starter) and Yarde's terrible positional play from a season ago.

King Carlos - Why didn't Tom Varndell get more England caps then?
Scored trys for fun but was a revolving door in defence 'at best' - at worst when on the Saxons tour' he would step to one side to avoid making a tackle!

I agree the point you are making though! But in some cases the little guy does come good - if they are good enough.
Shane Williams, Jason Robinson, Dominici, Campo, Pichot.
Josh Lewsey or Wilko never struck me as a big guy!
Neil Backs well documented size issues.

That new SA srum half - Le Clerc?

propdavid_london wrote:King Carlos - Why didn't Tom Varndell get more England caps then?
Scored trys for fun but was a revolving door in defence 'at best' - at worst when on the Saxons tour' he would step to one side to avoid making a tackle!

I agree the point you are making though! But in some cases the little guy does come good - if they are good enough.
Shane Williams, Jason Robinson, Dominici, Campo, Pichot.  
Josh Lewsey or Wilko never struck me as a big guy!
Neil Backs well documented size issues.

That new SA srum half - Le Clerc?

propdavid_london

As a Tigers fan I watched, and loved watching, Varndell a lot in his earlier years. He was lethal if given space on his wing, which that Tigers pack with Goode and Ellis at half back, Darryl Gibson and Geordan Murphy usually did. However defence wasn't the only weakness in his game back then. His handling was terrible (catching that is let alone passing) and his reading of the game poor (he truly was directed around the pitch by Goode and Geordie).

Varndell in his earlier years was a raw athlete, an exceptional sprinter being set loose by a very good side around him but he wasn't a great rugby player. That has changed now though I will admit with his defence, handling and especially reading of a game hugely improved.

Wade is a different story though. He runs fantastic lines, reads the game very well and his handling is fantastic. Not only does he finish tries his ability to beat a man then throw a pass regularly create them for others.

I agree that Varndell appears to have now developed into a much improved player.
Wade as you say is a different animal to Varndell - I would love to see Wade in an England shirt. He played well when given a chance on the Saxons tour to SA A's and really got stuck in.

I don't however think that its now or never for Wade though. He is young and still has plenty of time to work on his positioning (which at times can be iffy). In recent games I have seen him getting stuck in more and more in defence - I don't think anyone expects him to put in those body slamming tackles like a Lewsey or North can - he just needs to hang in there and slow his opposition down enough for support to arrive.

I would like to think that Wade will get his chance - but I want him to be 150% ready to grasp that chance with both hands and not risk a sub-par performance, be dropped and get the stuffing knocked out of him by press.

Incidentally EJ has told Rokko in one of his letters that he knows what he can offer in attack but wants to see his performances in defence. (I guess its irrelevant as at the moment Rokko is one of the few EPS wings still standing).

If EJ has spoken to Wade I would hope that he has told him what he needs to work on.
If not a Lions wildcard then I would also expect to see Wade on the England tour to Argentina and a shot to flourish in front of the boss in real time.

I am not bothered about Wade's size. When he actually connects with a tackle he was hitting hard, much like Ford in the tests.

However, I think he has only recently understood the importance of positioning and is still learning it. He looks to me like a player who throughout his career has been able to rely on his speed to make the tackle and so has never really learned how to work with the system.

That has left him regularly exposed at club level, but not often enough to negate his scoring ability. At International level, though, a top team would analyse his positional weaknesses and have the resources to exploit them, which is almost certainly why he's never been given more than occasional caps.

I'm pretty sure Eddie will have made that very clear, and he'll be watching how he responds.

SecretFly wrote:Eddie is a sadist though.  He enjoys it.  Look at his eyes dazzle when talking about all the things his team is going to do to an opposition.  He needs muzzling!

Sometimes you get a bit, odd, Fly.

Cumbrian wrote:I wouldn't worry, there is still the first two rounds of European matches for a couple more injuries to our prominent wingers.  Have no fear though, we could always put Mike Brown there and move Alex Goode to start at fullback...

Dont worry I think Goodes injured too

To be fair to Wade he looked MUCH better in the recent Saxons tour to SA.

And at a time when wingers and players in general seem to be dropping like flies maybe he might get a chance.

Yep Goode is injured also.

Couldn't we play Wade next summer on the tour to Arg? Getting his first cap against SA seems slightly unfair, and Eddie isn't forgiving, we don't want him going the way of Harrison/Burrell.