England's Autumn selections

by kingelderfield Wed 14 Sep 2016, 9:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

by Geordie Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:28 am

I think you'll find he's a 7! Even Ritchie's exploits will be blown out of the water.

Even Chuck Norris fears Maro!!

by Gooseberry Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:28 am

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:James Chisholm making Parisse look very ordinary.

Note I'm saying in this game he's played better, not that he's a better player then Parisse. That seems to confuse some.

I cant believe your saying Chisholm is a better player than the legend that is Parisse!!!! Next you'll be saying hes as good as Itoje!!

Fool. Nobody is as good as Itoje. He's going to go down in history as our best scrum half ever!

The Italians thought that about Bergamasco

by lostinwales Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:31 am

Poor Bergamasco. A really brilliant back row who will always be remembered for being made to look like an idiot in one game playing at 9.

I was going to say 'but he is no Maro' but, err almost....

by No 7&1/2 Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:32 am

Why do people keep claiming Chisholm is some sort of saviour? He's completely unproven and hasn't even been in the Prem final let alone win it.

by Geordie Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:33 am

A king Cobra once bit Maro Itoje....after 3 long days of agonising pain, hallucination and fever....the snake died.

by Gooseberry Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:33 am

I think hes real mistake was not taking his shirt off infront of Jon Inverdale. Its only then do you see the real power Itoje has.

by lostinwales Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:33 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why do people keep claiming Chisholm is some sort of saviour? He's completely unproven and hasn't even been in the Prem final let alone win it.

Has he played against Saracens yet?

by Geordie Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:34 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why do people keep claiming Chisholm is some sort of saviour? He's completely unproven and hasn't even been in the Prem final let alone win it.

Whos saying he's a saviour ?

by propdavid_london Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:41 am

Chisholm is developing nicely - in the last 3wks he has played against Billy V, Nathan Hughes and Parrise....won 2 out of 3 and really added something in all his games.
Its only his 1st season of senior rugby but is definitely one to watch for the future. No.8 is becoming quite a position of strength and its future is assured with the inclusion of youngsters like Chisholm, Clifford, Beaumont - and its not as if Bill V is old either.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:42 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why do people keep claiming Chisholm is some sort of saviour? He's completely unproven and hasn't even been in the Prem final let alone win it.

Whos saying he's a saviour ?

Should have added a whistle emojee there.

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:43 am

I seem to remember a discussion on this board a while ago that decided if Maro went into the back row, Kruis and Launchbury where the same style of player and it would be better to have Lawes in with Kruis, with Launchbury on the bench. Lawes being the similar style to Maro in that he is quicker and covers more ground than Launchbury, he gets across to make tackles in areas neither Launchbury or Kruis has the speed to get to.

What has changed since then?

by Geordie Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why do people keep claiming Chisholm is some sort of saviour? He's completely unproven and hasn't even been in the Prem final let alone win it.

Whos saying he's a saviour ?

Should have added a whistle emojee there.

by Poorfour Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why do people keep claiming Chisholm is some sort of saviour? He's completely unproven and hasn't even been in the Prem final let alone win it.

Chisholm has an almost unique skillset that England desperately need right now, regardless of experience. I am talking, of course, of the ability to play a game of rugby without getting injured.

by propdavid_london Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:52 am

Ha, don't jinx the ones that are still standing!

by lostinwales Fri 14 Oct 2016, 11:08 am

Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why do people keep claiming Chisholm is some sort of saviour? He's completely unproven and hasn't even been in the Prem final let alone win it.

Chisholm has an almost unique skillset that England desperately need right now, regardless of experience. I am talking, of course, of the ability to play a game of rugby without getting injured.

Well with Robshaw at the same club he's got an expert to learn from

by mid_gen Fri 14 Oct 2016, 2:53 pm

Chisholm did give a masterclass in one of the key attributes EJ likes in his forwards....namely going into contact like a raging bull, big fend, low body position, legs pumping, busting through tackles. None of this Borthwick style powder-puff stand up then flop on the floor nonsense.

Lovely offload as well. He'd be a good replacement for Clifford on the bench...but realistically he'll need to keep the level of performance up during the international window and spend some time in the training squad before getting near a white shirt.

by Poorfour Fri 14 Oct 2016, 4:04 pm

mid_gen wrote:Chisholm did give a masterclass in one of the key attributes EJ likes in his forwards....namely going into contact like a raging bull, big fend, low body position, legs pumping, busting through tackles. None of this Borthwick style powder-puff stand up then flop on the floor nonsense.

Lovely offload as well. He'd be a good replacement for Clifford on the bench...but realistically he'll need to keep the level of performance up during the international window and spend some time in the training squad before getting near a white shirt.

He was in the Saxons squad over the summer and was part of the U20s (and, like Itoje, a former World Junior Player), so he's in and around the setup. I wasn't expecting him to get a debut for some time, but with so many injuries to the back row he's edging closer. If Williams recovers, he's clearly the man in pole position, and Kvesic is probably ahead of Chis too... but equally it wouldn't be a total shock if Eddie calls him up to the training squad for the AIs.

It would be a pain in the butt for Quins, though. We'd have to sign someone as injury cover for Clifford... Nick Easter, perhaps?

by lostinwales Fri 14 Oct 2016, 6:40 pm

May and Farrell playing at the weekend..

by EnglishReign Sat 15 Oct 2016, 5:29 pm

lostinwales wrote:May and Farrell playing at the weekend..

Looks like Farrell didn't do much wrong today! Also a really solid showing from J May on his return and a try to boot.

by propdavid_london Mon 17 Oct 2016, 11:28 am

Both of those playing without injury is a welcome boost to EJ I am sure. We are a bit thread bear on the wings ATM.
Although there isn't a lot of gametime between now and the tests - so not sure how likely it is that they are dropped straight back into the setup. Farrell most likely will, but May has been out for a heck of a long time!

by TrailApe Mon 17 Oct 2016, 11:31 am

Fool. Nobody is as good as Itoje. He's going to go down in history as our best scrum half ever

And when Phil Vickery retires Itoje will be our best prop.

by Geordie Mon 17 Oct 2016, 11:46 am

TrailApe wrote:
Fool. Nobody is as good as Itoje. He's going to go down in history as our best scrum half ever

And when Phil Vickery retires Itoje will be our best prop.

Oh don't be so bloomin crazy!!!

Big Phil will never retire......

by propdavid_london Wed 19 Oct 2016, 11:45 am

I would like to revise my original thinking about the 9s for England.
Ben Youngs had a shocker against Glasgow, and while its unfair when his competitors had games against easier opposition I do think that Youngs needs to drop down the pecking order a bit.

For me, Robson is the form 9, Care and Youngs are still in the mix but perhaps DC's stock has risen slightly.

Does anyone know when EJ is likely to trim his squad again for the tests? Or is the recent selection fixed 'barring injury'?

by Gooseberry Wed 19 Oct 2016, 12:35 pm

propdavid_london wrote:I would like to revise my original thinking about the 9s for England.
Ben Youngs had a shocker against Glasgow, and while its unfair when his competitors had games against easier opposition I do think that Youngs needs to drop down the pecking order a bit.

For me, Robson is the form 9, Care and Youngs are still in the mix but perhaps DC's stock has risen slightly.

Does anyone know when EJ is likely to trim his squad again for the tests? Or is the recent selection fixed 'barring injury'?

There was an interview at the time of training camp where Jones made it clear that he saw the EPS as a legal agreement rather than a squad. The players his focus was on fore the AI's (barring injuries/return from injuries) were those that attended that.

The 37 is due to be trimmed again on the 26th.

As for scrum halves...England have chopped and changed for year now, but always seem to end back at Youngs and Care.

Since Farrell is fit and Ford exists DC has little chance of getting a game in the short term.

by robbo277 Wed 19 Oct 2016, 6:57 pm

beshocked wrote:Sgt Poorly I am not upset with you. How can I be upset with someone I pity?

Continue to rate journeymen and poor players as you wish. You are welcome to.

You know absolutely nothing about me so please do not claim you know me.

As I said before someone who rates a journeyman like Sean Robinson (I say his name for your benefit) above Itoje, clearly knows nothing about rugby. Doesn't matter whether you watch AP rugby every week or not.

Why on earth can't more posters just hold their hands up and occasionally say they are wrong?

Perhaps you should stick to the Newcastle forum where you can talk about "underrated" Newcastle players overlooked by England.

no 7 & 1/2 guess it depends if you think a pointless friendly vs Wales at the end of our rugby season is more important than against SA who we haven't beaten in years.

Now you are welcome to disagree but I would say that a win over SA would be much more valued. As for the other games they are still tests albeit vs weaker opposition. Still no pushover.

We play Wales every year in the 6 nations, those are the big games as was the RWC one.

Eddie Jones has been in charge less than a year as I said before. E.Jones should be looking to use this AIs to blood some more options. Especially in the easier matches - Fiji and Argentina.

Disagree that Argentina is any more than marginally easier than South Africa or Australia. None of the three of them took wins away from home, if you discount Australia's win on neutral territory (in what was technically an Argentina home match).

With the injuries, I'd be much happier with up picking our strongest XV all 4 matches. Yes, you can look at horses for courses and pick a bigger pack for SA and Fiji and make some changes for Argentina and Australia, but I don't think we should be "blooding" players for the sake of it. 4 wins using 15 players would be worth much more than 3 wins and giving a load of guys a go.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Oct 2016, 7:54 pm

We have a shot at a 100% win year and should aim for that

by king_carlos Wed 19 Oct 2016, 9:45 pm

Hartley expected to play this weekend. Whether he starts may depend on if he returns to form faster than he often has after an injury break. Even if he doesn't have the match fitness to start then I'd expect EJ to at least have him on the bench.

1.M Vunipola
2.Hartley/George
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Kruis
6.Robshaw
7.Itoje
8.B Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.Yarde/May
12.Farrell
13.Joseph
14.Roko
15.Brown

16.George/Hartley
17.Marler
18.Hill
19.Lawes
20.Hughes/Harrison
21.Care
22.Daly
23.Goode

Seems we are moving towards that for the Boks.

Biggest question is still 7, but Itoje seems increasingly likely. Ben Youngs and Care's usual mixed form will split opinion as well but I think Jones will stick with Youngs for his kicking game against the Boks. I hope Robson gets a chance during the AIs though.

by Poorfour Wed 19 Oct 2016, 10:46 pm

beshocked wrote:
Eddie Jones has been in charge less than a year as I said before. E.Jones should be looking to use this AIs to blood some more options. Especially in the easier matches - Fiji and Argentina.

Tosh. You repeatedly demand that whomever is the England Head Coach "bloods new players" in any game that's even marginally less than a fiercely competitive game. It's nonsense.

Jones has already blooded Hill, Itoje, Harrison, Clifford and effectively George, plus included a host of younger players in the EPS and training squad. I've posted the list somewhere recently, perhaps even in this thread, and the list is surprisingly long and surprisingly young.

His stated aim is dominance, and it seems pretty clear from selection so far that he's not going to give out caps easily (but will reward performance in the shirt by anyone who wins one).

My guess is that the furthest he's likely to go is not risking anyone carrying a niggle against Fiji. But he's not going to risk a loss just to try people out. Injury will force his hand often enough that there will be plenty of chances to try new players out of necessity.

by lostinwales Wed 19 Oct 2016, 11:25 pm

Given Harrison is only on the bench at best for Saints these days I think he's not going to feature

by robbo277 Thu 20 Oct 2016, 12:08 am

king_carlos wrote:Hartley expected to play this weekend. Whether he starts may depend on if he returns to form faster than he often has after an injury break. Even if he doesn't have the match fitness to start then I'd expect EJ to at least have him on the bench.

1.M Vunipola
2.Hartley/George
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Kruis
6.Robshaw
7.Itoje
8.B Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.Yarde/May
12.Farrell
13.Joseph
14.Roko
15.Brown

16.George/Hartley
17.Marler
18.Hill
19.Lawes
20.Hughes/Harrison
21.Care
22.Daly
23.Goode

Seems we are moving towards that for the Boks.

Biggest question is still 7, but Itoje seems increasingly likely. Ben Youngs and Care's usual mixed form will split opinion as well but I think Jones will stick with Youngs for his kicking game against the Boks. I hope Robson gets a chance during the AIs though.

As counter-intuitive as it sounds, I think if there's any question mark over Hartley, you start him (or drop him). You have a look at him early and if he's back to his best it's business at usual. If not, you hook him early and let George have a crack.

I think subs are just as important as starters, and if George is starting to tire into the second half (as he's not started a full-blooded international match before) and you turn to your bench and you have Hartley who is struggling for form and fitness, you're not making your substitution from a position of strength.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Oct 2016, 12:50 am

robbo277 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Hartley expected to play this weekend. Whether he starts may depend on if he returns to form faster than he often has after an injury break. Even if he doesn't have the match fitness to start then I'd expect EJ to at least have him on the bench.

1.M Vunipola
2.Hartley/George
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Kruis
6.Robshaw
7.Itoje
8.B Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.Yarde/May
12.Farrell
13.Joseph
14.Roko
15.Brown

16.George/Hartley
17.Marler
18.Hill
19.Lawes
20.Hughes/Harrison
21.Care
22.Daly
23.Goode

Seems we are moving towards that for the Boks.

Biggest question is still 7, but Itoje seems increasingly likely. Ben Youngs and Care's usual mixed form will split opinion as well but I think Jones will stick with Youngs for his kicking game against the Boks. I hope Robson gets a chance during the AIs though.

As counter-intuitive as it sounds, I think if there's any question mark over Hartley, you start him (or drop him). You have a look at him early and if he's back to his best it's business at usual. If not, you hook him early and let George have a crack.

I think subs are just as important as starters, and if George is starting to tire into the second half (as he's not started a full-blooded international match before) and you turn to your bench and you have Hartley who is struggling for form and fitness, you're not making your substitution from a position of strength.

Personally I agree

by beshocked Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:16 am

Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Eddie Jones has been in charge less than a year as I said before. E.Jones should be looking to use this AIs to blood some more options. Especially in the easier matches - Fiji and Argentina.

Tosh. You repeatedly demand that whomever is the England Head Coach "bloods new players" in any game that's even marginally less than a fiercely competitive game. It's nonsense.

Jones has already blooded Hill, Itoje, Harrison, Clifford and effectively George, plus included a host of younger players in the EPS and training squad. I've posted the list somewhere recently, perhaps even in this thread, and the list is surprisingly long and surprisingly young.

His stated aim is dominance, and it seems pretty clear from selection so far that he's not going to give out caps easily (but will reward performance in the shirt by anyone who wins one).

My guess is that the furthest he's likely to go is not risking anyone carrying a niggle against Fiji. But he's not going to risk a loss just to try people out. Injury will force his hand often enough that there will be plenty of chances to try new players out of necessity.

Only Itoje is a starter. The others have had merely scraps of game time.

Throwing Harrison in did not work, if anything it might have potentially damaged the player's confidence. Jones quickly realised his mistake and yanked him off.

Yes I still believe there are better times to give players game time.

If Hartley gets injured we are short on experience at 2.

Players benefit more from starting.

I'd start Hartley vs SA if he's fit enough, give George at least 30 minutes.

Start George vs Fiji with LCD on the bench, 30 minutes for LCD if England are 15+ ahead.

As for 9, Youngs starting with Robson on the bench.

Start Robson vs Fiji.

by propdavid_london Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:17 am

LCD is another one that's now out of the AIs - recent injury

by beshocked Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:19 am

propdavid_london wrote:LCD is another one that's now out of the AIs - recent injury

Okay I didn't know that. Whoever is 4th choice hooker then. Is it Taylor?

by propdavid_london Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:20 am

With LCD out then it could be Taylors chance to step up - but hasn't he been injured at Wasps recently too?

So, who is the backup or 3rd choice if LCD and Taylor are injured? (assuming Hartley and George are fit).

Do we look at the Quins options? Is Tom Youngs a viable alternative again? Yendle at Chiefs?

by propdavid_london Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:21 am

Who's the U20s options at the moment?

by propdavid_london Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:22 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37704150

by yappysnap Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:32 am

Now it is Dave Wards time to shine! And he can cover 7 too...

by yappysnap Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:36 am

beshocked wrote:.

Throwing Harrison in did not work, if anything it might have potentially damaged the player's confidence. Jones quickly realised his mistake and yanked him off.
.

Was that to cheer him up after being subbed??

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:40 am

A yank from Jones, no wonder he's been subdued this season.

by beshocked Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:43 am

Sgt Pooly that's actually quite funny.

Yappysnap maybe as a 7 but has Ward learnt how to throw yet?

Probably. Laugh

by propdavid_london Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:50 am

Ward also hasn't played the last few games for Quins - I don't know if its the rotation policy or injury!
Buchanan and Grey are the 2 at the moment and they have both had Saxons experience. I do like Yendel at chiefs, got good leadership experience too and has a physical edge.
What about Ross Batty at Bath?
I wont even mention Webber at Sale.

by Poorfour Thu 20 Oct 2016, 1:32 pm

beshocked wrote:
Throwing Harrison in did not work, if anything it might have potentially damaged the player's confidence. Jones quickly realised his mistake and yanked him off.

Yes I still believe there are better times to give players game time.

So you're saying he should try more new players, but only if he can see into the future and be sure that they're going to work out? I didn't see any more pundits or posters arguing "Harrison isn't ready" before the game than I did saying "Itoje isn't ready" before his debut.

Ah, but you're saying he's only given some of these players scraps of gametime and that players benefit from starting. Would you rather he'd stuck with Harrison for 60 minutes, even if it cost us the game?

Is it possible that by giving them a taste of international rugby in high pressure matches but without the responsibility of starting, he's getting them ready for a starting role at some point in the future? That by having young players in the squad and on tours, even if they don't play, he's giving them experience that will prepare them for international rugby (remember one of his mantras if that you train at test match intensity)? That, just maybe, he might better able to gauge when they're ready to start than us?

Or is it actually that you just want the England coaches to play your favourite players?

by Gooseberry Thu 20 Oct 2016, 2:09 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:A yank from Jones, no wonder he's been subdued this season.

How long before he reaches for Wood?

by beshocked Thu 20 Oct 2016, 2:32 pm

Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Throwing Harrison in did not work, if anything it might have potentially damaged the player's confidence. Jones quickly realised his mistake and yanked him off.

Yes I still believe there are better times to give players game time.

So you're saying he should try more new players, but only if he can see into the future and be sure that they're going to work out? I didn't see any more pundits or posters arguing "Harrison isn't ready" before the game than I did saying "Itoje isn't ready" before his debut.

Ah, but you're saying he's only given some of these players scraps of gametime and that players benefit from starting. Would you rather he'd stuck with Harrison for 60 minutes, even if it cost us the game?

Is it possible that by giving them a taste of international rugby in high pressure matches but without the responsibility of starting, he's getting them ready for a starting role at some point in the future? That by having young players in the squad and on tours, even if they don't play, he's giving them experience that will prepare them for international rugby (remember one of his mantras if that you train at test match intensity)? That, just maybe, he might better able to gauge when they're ready to start than us?

Or is it actually that you just want the England coaches to play your favourite players?

I am saying that England need to pick the best times to introduce players. It's all well and good giving scraps of game time but eventually they need to get starts.

I knew Itoje would work out hence why I've been pushing for him to be in the squad, Itoje is not your average player. Taken some people a while to learn that but I like to think most people agree that Itoje seems to be a special player.

Of course players benefit from starting unless you throw them to the wolves.

The most famous example of being thrown to the wolves (though in this case a fake tanned dragon) is of course this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLOb_5e697s

My opinion on Lancaster's decision to start Nowell vs France when England threw away an opportunity of a GS in the first game is well known.

Ultimately I want England to win and if that means playing my favourite players then sure yes.

It is not clever to throw a youngster into a wolf pit if you can avoid it. Also not every player is as mentally strong as each other.

To be fair Nowell hasn't suffered mentally from a poor debutant but it's one factor in Lancaster losing his job. A GS would have eased the pressure on him.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 20 Oct 2016, 2:35 pm

And May too when he cost us through the nose.

by lostinwales Thu 20 Oct 2016, 3:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And May too when he cost us through the nose.

If only he could be like Goode and not actually tackle at all

by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Oct 2016, 4:24 pm

James Chisholm is a special player, if we get any more backrow injuries it may be his time to shine (1-2 seasons too early for me)

by propdavid_london Thu 20 Oct 2016, 4:33 pm

Problem is CJ that he is in a very competitive position!
Billy V and Hughes there at the moment. I am sure that I remember EJ saying Clifford long term was a no.8! Beaumont is also in the mix it seems.
I agree that he is showing up really well at the moment - but so did Clifford when he broke into the 1st tem and has had a bit of 2nd season syndrome + injury.
As you say though - another 1 or 2 seasons of consistency and he could well be in the mix (especially if he develops further). As a side note, the pleased expression on Easters face when Chis scored his 2 latest tries says to me that he will be given plenty of opportunity.

by beshocked Thu 20 Oct 2016, 4:37 pm

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And May too when he cost us through the nose.

If only he could be like Goode and not actually tackle at all

I think Goode is a better defender than May.

The only plus point May has over Goode is that he's a faster runner. Road runner.

by Sponsored content