England's Autumn selections

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

yappysnap wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Never a better time to play SA, they've been pretty pap

Although last time SA were "in crisis" this happened...

Yep, I'm sure nobody will be underestimating the Boks. Even if they are not at their best the certainty have the beating of England. Jones is going to have his work cut out to fashion a victory for England.

We have injury issues. (Including a fair few for our best players). We do still have the core of the team that beat Oz, and we do have strength in depth.

I am optimistic about the AI's although it will be harder now.

It will be a much bigger ask - but we also now want to see this depth. I have a mix of optimism - with this injury list any sort of 'W' will be a big moral boost and a massive kick to the opposition.

Yes, if England can still get wins with these injuries, I completely agree that it will demonstrate a real strength in depth rather than just a perceived one. I also agree that a win would be a great psychological victory with many of our best players missing. Got to get the wins though!

I can understand the inclusion of Wood as a stop gap given the injuries.

What I can't fathom out is the exclusion of Robson who has consistently been the best SH this season, surely deserves a crack during the Autumn Internationals?

Totally dumbfounded....

Yes, what does Robson have to do to get included?

lostinwales wrote:And a ton of time left for Hill as he is a baby in propping terms.

Its going to cause a tired team a whole heap of problems bringing Mako and Sinkler on as subs..

He looks fitter and leaner than ive ever seen him and playing like a second FH at times. Ive never been his biggest fan...but in this form he simply has to start!

And Sinkler is playing very well also!

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I can understand the inclusion of Wood as a stop gap given the injuries.

What I can't fathom out is the exclusion of Robson who has consistently been the best SH this season, surely deserves a crack during the Autumn Internationals?

Totally dumbfounded....

You see that's the one I cant understand. His Club are in poor form...he's an alrounder not as good as Robshaw. Id rather give Kvesic or even Calum Clark a go. At least hes got more physicality. Id even consider someone like Mark Wilson for a squad spot.

I agree GF. For me there was always a perceived weakness in the scrimmage with Mako. But he has been much improved in that area - and the form of the rest of his game suggests that he cant be left out.
Marler is a long way behind Mako at the moment.

Would be interested to know who Jones would choose today, if he was forced. Harrison ought to be above Wood in the pecking order but not if Jones wants experience.

Suppose we'll just have to wait (and see who else gets injured in training).

If Wood was to start it would mean a change in Tactics surely?

As him nor Robshaw offer the brute type player that Haskell is.

These are the players in the wider squad. There is no guarantee that Wood will get a game.

In the video that accompanies the squad listing - EJ mentions Harrisons performance last week (despite loosing heavily) as the best no.7 performance he has seen in the premiership so far...........

Possible/probable 23:

1.Mako
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Robshaw
7.Wood
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Joseph
14.Roko/Yarde
15.Brown

16.George
17.Marler
18.Sinckler
19.Attwood
20.Hughes/Harrison
21.Care
22.Daly
23.Goode

I feel that a certain S Lancaster will being watching this with equal measures of interest and bemusement

Eddie Jones says whatever comes into his head

Wood won't be in the 23, he's just there in case Robshaw gets injured as he is the most similar player to cover for him. 


Also First 15 selection was not, until some odd form decisions and Burgess decisions in RWC15, Lancaster's issue. Squad prep, underbaking the entire pack, lack of ruthlessness and awful late match tactics and subs were.

I cant see May dropping straight back into the starting lineup.
Same with Hartley....not had a lot of gametime following injury.
Yarde and Roko to start on either wing.
And for me, either Harrison or Hughes will start at no.7 - Tom Wood is an extra body to hold tackle bags in camp.

Sinkler would definitely make an impact off the bench......has he moved ahead of Hill? I am not sure if Sinks will make the squad against SA but he may well do in one or 2 of the other fixtures.

I don't get having only 2 SHs though, and neither being nearly the in form 9s of the Jeff right now. I'm also surprised that Hill and Beaumont have been passed over. Interesting to see Sinck on the bench, if he keeps his head he could be incredible in the loose

propdavid_london wrote:I cant see May dropping straight back into the starting lineup.  
Same with Hartley....not had a lot of gametime following injury.
Yarde and Roko to start on either wing.  
And for me, either Harrison or Hughes will start at no.7 - Tom Wood is an extra body to hold tackle bags in camp.  

Sinkler would definitely make an impact off the bench......has he moved ahead of Hill?  I am not sure if Sinks will make the squad against SA but he may well do in one or 2 of the other fixtures.  

Sinckler is the only other TH than Cole that I see, so he's benching

Ah, missed that one CJ - Yes I guess there is no other option then.
Well done Sinks.

Can clubs still play these players in this round of the AP?

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't get having only 2 SHs though, and neither being nearly the in form 9s of the Jeff right now.

A 3rd scrum-half will likely be called up to train, probably Robson.

It always happened when Lancaster, and more recently Jones, only picked 2 hookers in their squads. A 3rd was immediately called into training camps but released in the week to play for their club.

It will be interesting to see how Dai Young reacts to Tommy Taylor and Robson probably training a fair chunk of the week with England only to not play. He had a rant last season about England squad members who weren't in the match day squads being released back to their clubs too late in the week.

He will have to lump it to a certain extent if its in the club-country agreement and they are in one of the EPS or Saxon squads then EJ can use them as needed.
Surely allowing the players exposure to the environment a la - Sinks and Genge in Oz can only help a younger players confidence.
If Tom Wood comes in and just holds the tackle bags never to be picked then I suspect that will have a negative impact on the player.

DoRs moaned about the high intensity training sessions and then ultimately did nothing about it.

You're obsessed in Wood holding tackle bags while he's proved he can excel.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Can clubs still play these players in this round of the AP?

If these players can't play this round of the AP then Saracens are going to struggle an awful lot at fly half.

I do like a good tackle bag

So... the options for England at 7 are as follows, along with Eddie's stated views on their suitability:

Robshaw - a 6.5 at best (though according to today's press conference he still has the joke 6.5 shirt Haskell did for the two of them...)
Hughes - in a straight fight with Billy
Harrison - not ready to do what Jones asks at this stage of his career... but also put in the best England 7 performance this term (albeit in a losing cause)
Wood - "distinctly average" and "not good enough" but has apparently pulled his socks up.

Compared to this lot, the pronouncement that Haskell was "not a long term solution but could do a job" is crystal clear.

I think by this stage, he genuinely may not know who his best option is. My guess is he will try various options in training, including throwing the kitchen sink at Harrison to see if he can cope.

The beeb has EJ as saying Harrison is first choice 7.

king_carlos wrote:Possible/probable 23:

1.Mako
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Robshaw
7.Wood Harrison
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Joseph
14.Roko/Yarde
15.Brown

16.George
17.Marler
18.Sinckler
19.Attwood
20.Hughes
21.Care
22.Daly
23.Goode

I feel that a certain S Lancaster will being watching this with equal measures of interest and bemusement

That should be it I reckon, but EJ may want to repeat his 6:2 bench split for the Boks, which could offer a spot to another 2nd rower? I think we are all more comfortable with the 5:3 which balances the risks re injured players more evenly.

Poorfour wrote:So... the options for England at 7 are as follows, along with Eddie's stated views on their suitability:

Robshaw - a 6.5 at best (though according to today's press conference he still has the joke 6.5 shirt Haskell did for the two of them...)
Hughes - in a straight fight with Billy
Harrison - not ready to do what Jones asks at this stage of his career... but also put in the best England 7 performance this term (albeit in a losing cause)
Wood - "distinctly average" and "not good enough" but has apparently pulled his socks up.

Compared to this lot, the pronouncement that Haskell was "not a long term solution but could do a job" is crystal clear.

I think by this stage, he genuinely may not know who his best option is. My guess is he will try various options in training, including throwing the kitchen sink at Harrison to see if he can cope.

Exactly, he just says whatever. Hopefully it is planned at giving players subtle or not so subtle motivation nods.

Alternatively he's just doing what he dies well and deflecting from the players by everyone talking about Jones.

king_carlos wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't get having only 2 SHs though, and neither being nearly the in form 9s of the Jeff right now.

A 3rd scrum-half will likely be called up to train, probably Robson.

The squad is off to Portugal on Sunday for a week. If anyone else was due to be on the plane, then they would have been named.

Rugby Fan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't get having only 2 SHs though, and neither being nearly the in form 9s of the Jeff right now.

A 3rd scrum-half will likely be called up to train, probably Robson.

The squad is off to Portugal on Sunday for a week. If anyone else was due to be on the plane, then they would have been named.

After this weekend it's 2 weeks of Anglo-Welsh cup fixtures which most clubs will use for development. Guys like Robson will likely get rested anyway, if Jones wanted them to travel with the squad I expect club coaches wouldn't want to put a players nose out of joint by kicking up a fuss.

king_carlos wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't get having only 2 SHs though, and neither being nearly the in form 9s of the Jeff right now.

A 3rd scrum-half will likely be called up to train, probably Robson.

The squad is off to Portugal on Sunday for a week. If anyone else was due to be on the plane, then they would have been named.

After this weekend it's 2 weeks of Anglo-Welsh cup fixtures which most clubs will use for development. Guys like Robson will likely get rested anyway, if Jones wanted them to travel with the squad I expect club coaches wouldn't want to put a players nose out of joint by kicking up a fuss.

I'm sure that's true, but I can't recall any unnamed player appearing at an overseas training camp unless called up as injury cover.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Wood won't be in the 23, he's just there in case Robshaw gets injured as he is the most similar player to cover for him. 


Also First 15 selection was not, until some odd form decisions and Burgess decisions in RWC15, Lancaster's issue. Squad prep, underbaking the entire pack, lack of ruthlessness and awful late match tactics and subs were.

Robshaw as captain : Lancaster
Robshaw still as captain after twice fannying about and still making bad decision regarding late game kicks: Lancaster
Goode on the wing: Lancaster
Brown on the wing : Lancaster
Ditching players too early (Easter for Dowson cough) to play to the crowd and further his own career : Lancaster
Everything else: May breaking his nose (if you ask Beshocked anyway)


Joking aside though despite being a Lancaster hater from day 1 I do have some sympathy for him and injuries, a problem Johnson also faced which in both cases did as much to inform the tactics and type of sides they ended up putting out as much as a desire to be rubbish did.
Jones had a charmed first 6 months in this regard and has been able to play close to a first choice squad and keep consistency. Now he is facing the sort of situation his predecessors regularly did ...scratching around for players including those theyd already rejected.

I do worry for this Autumn, and the blow to morale and sniping loses will lead to. The honeymoon is over.

Gooseberry wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Wood won't be in the 23, he's just there in case Robshaw gets injured as he is the most similar player to cover for him. 


Also First 15 selection was not, until some odd form decisions and Burgess decisions in RWC15, Lancaster's issue. Squad prep, underbaking the entire pack, lack of ruthlessness and awful late match tactics and subs were.

Robshaw as captain : Lancaster
Robshaw still as captain after twice fannying about and still making bad decision regarding late game kicks: Lancaster
Goode on the wing: Lancaster
Brown on the wing : Lancaster
Ditching players too early (Easter for Dowson cough) to play to the crowd and further his own career : Lancaster
Everything else: May breaking his nose (if you ask Beshocked anyway)


Joking aside though despite being a Lancaster hater from day 1 I do have some sympathy for him and injuries, a problem Johnson also faced which in both cases did as much to inform the tactics and type of sides they ended up putting out as much as a desire to be rubbish did.
Jones had a charmed first 6 months in this regard and has been able to play close to a first choice squad and keep consistency. Now he is facing the sort of situation his predecessors regularly did ...scratching around for players including those theyd already rejected.

I do worry for this Autumn, and the blow to morale and sniping loses will lead to. The honeymoon is over.

Don't forget playing Lawes at 6.

Wood at no 8.

Two inexperienced wingers vs France in 2014 6 nations with Goode on the bench as cover which clearly contributed heavily to the loss despite the Lancaster fan club feeling otherwise.

Honey moon is indeed over. Eddie Jones has done well so far but needs to not make the mistakes that Lancaster did.

Squad does look worryingly like Lancaster picked it - infatuation with a RL convert, ignoring form player like Robson, recall for two Lancaster stalwarts - Wood and Morgan who contributed to the RWC failure.

Will probably stick with Hartley as a starter which going by his current form and recent injury is a worry - that would also be a Lancaster selection (Lancaster ignored George almost completely).

More Lancaster mistakes:

Trusting Webber over George in the RWC.
Leaving Itoje out of the RWC warm up games.
Picking not fully fit players in the RWC.

Yep, when you've got complete upheaval in your pack due to injury, dropping your captain and proven top class hooker when he's fit and back playing would be a fantastic idea

I think George will be fantastic for England, but with all that's going on with injuries we'd be mad to drop Hartley if he proves his fitness

I think the Morgan WC bashing is a little harsh - the guy was fast tracked back in from injury and clearly wasn't ready. That is down to Lancaster and coaches.
The Wood experiment at no8 and Lawes on the flank were both epic bad decisions - but at least the flanking Lawes was only 1 game. Didn't Wood play a whole championship at no8?

Bambam if it was 6 nations Hartley or Australian tour Hartley I would agree with you but we are talking about Hartley who is still coming back from injury and was in a team stuffed by Castres. You don't think the captain should take some responsibility?

In contrast you have George whose in red hot form, he also has aspects of his game which are far above Hartley.

SA are a big side but George is a player who can help stretch SA and bust their defence open.

Maybe England should start Hartley and see how it goes but it's still a risk.


I guess you could say I am hammering home the point I do not like seeing players picked who aren't fully fit and prepared.


Plus England have to trust George at some time, no player should be undroppable.

propdavid in london the problem is that Lancaster started Morgan vs Fiji, Billy.V had to help put the game away from the bench.

Morgan was Lancaster's first choice in that game which was barmy.

Morgan was in decline, Billy on the rise -a fully fit Morgan of 2015 wasn't as good as a fully fit Billy of 2015.

My point was that Morgan wasn't fully fit in 2015. It was management that selected him to start.
I am not disputing that right now Billy is head and shoulders above Morgan. But in his earlier years Billy did have a tendency to drop in and out of games - now he is an exceptional players but its only really under EJ and post WC that we have seen the real potential of Billy V.
Lets look at what Morgan did when he came into the England fold - OK he wasn't great at the breakdown but he carried hard and had notable games against the French and ABs.

During the WC - Lancaster should have called for Easter earlier rather than take a punt on Morgan who was still coming back from a serious injury - wasn't it a leg break or something?

Beshocked - I agree that George is the better player at the moment, and has been for some time. At some point EJ will have to trust him to start but for the Saffas I am fairly sure he will stick to George on the bench - and hopefully he can produce some of his magic in the last 20mins.
Its a similar situation to Mealamu and Dane Coles....experience vs dynamism. Mealamu has stepped back and Dane is now taking his chances.

George may well get his chance against Fiji, Argentina or Oz but I suspect the Saffas is the game that EJ really wants to win. I am sure he wants to win them all but the Saffa one is an important monkey to get off the back.
I am hoping that Taylor gets a little bit of time off the bench in one of those games too.

People wet themselves over Morgan when he first came in, I dont think we can really critisize his initial selection. Or indeed going back to him now when fishing around for genuine 8s who exist, even if he did drop off a bit instead of kicking on as hoped.

The real point is that this will be a side made up of the spare parts and bit players. In that regard "rushing back" players like Hartley is also understandable...its kinda nice to have someone in the side whos at least met the coaching staff and knows which way round the shirts go. Wood...4 years ago everyone who didnt own a Quins shirt wanted him as captain and he was getting called " world class" on here.
It will have the look of a scratch side whoever was selected, but trying to keep some continuity and experience to avoid it being total headless chicken time and a graveyard for first cappers in the style of summer tours of yesteryear has its merits.

I don't think its fair to blame Jones in this circumstance for not looking for every fit 19 year old who hasn't even got a Saxons cap to turn to before his " 50 cap cavalry".

propdavid_london Disagree. I thought Billy was excellent in the 2015 6 nations. Even in the loss vs Ireland, he made the most metres of any forward. Against France he was imperious.

In 2014, yes Billy's fitness wasn't quite there though he had his moments. 2014 was the last time IMO Morgan was the better no 8.

Morgan was the go to no 8 - 2012-2014 but 2015- present - it's been Billy.

Gooseberry Morgan is not the same player he was in 2012-2014 just as Manu is not the same player of 2012-13.

OK - so I'm a year out with my thinking. Agree, its the same situation with Manu too.
Anyway - I am really looking forward to this series, if a little less confident due to all the injuries - however I would still be disappointed were we to loose a game. I guess that's the confidence that EJ and the team has managed to instil in the fans and hopefully in themselves.

I do think Argentina are a real banana skin and should not be taken lightly at any cost.
Fiji is the game to experiment in if they have to, or test new combinations - but I still wouldn't want wholesale changes.

propdavid_london I hope England don't take any of these matches lightly but there has to be a time and a place to try out different players.

The silly thing is that even though there's been a lot of injuries there will not be many new players. Now I am not saying that new players is always a necessity but generally injuries are a good opportunity to strengthen strength in depth and yet the squad in my opinion is conservative.

Wood and Morgan for example have not been tearing up the AP. They are not reborn players and yet here they are back in the squad.

Both Robson and Cipriani can feel unfortunate they are not in the squad.

There's no real argument that Billy is a better player than Morgan and has been for a couple of years. Morgan's a huge carrier when he comes onto the ball at pace, but Billy has a much more complete game.

The big issue in the RWC was that Lancaster gambled on Morgan getting match fit in time for the games that mattered, when it was pretty clear from the warm-ups that he wasn't really ready.

From the BBC piece, it sounds like we're looking at a Robshaw-Harrison-Vunipola starting trio (barring further injuries) and I would imagine that Hughes and Wood are next in line.

As for starting with Hartley, it's a no brainer as long as he's fit. Good as George is, Hartley has enough credit in the bank and experience that if he isn't an injury risk he should play. George has never played SA at senior level and it would be bonkers to disrupt the pack further than is necessary just to give him a start. That's especially true given Lawes is likely to be calling the lineout. But if Hartley isn't up to it, Eddie's unliklely to leave him on for more than 30 minutes.

I'm still not in favour of experimenting in the Fiji game. Rest players who aren't 100%, sure, but experimentation for experimentation's sake when the squad is already seriously disrupted by injury is reckless. There is a time and a place to try new players, and that's on the Argentina tour this summer, when there'll be plenty of vacant shirts to play for.

Poorfour wonder what the odds are on that backrow you suggest, Hughes on the bench, Harrison taken off early with Hughes coming on.....

On Hartley situation is Hartley is fit agreed but that's the issue. Jones needs to make the change if it's not working.

I agree there's a time and place to try new players and I am not convinced an understrength tour to Argentina with a fatigued squad is a good time.

I suspect it is going to be a close call for Hughes to play the Haskell wrecking ball at ruck time. He will know how Haskell plays and providing his fitness is up to it, will be fine margin call. For all Harrison's aggression a simple slight lack of bulk, particularly against SA will be telling. A few cameos from Hughes with ball carrying and with Billy following up is an enticing prospect with Robshaw fitness sweeping up around them.

Just for good measure Attwood lining alongside Launchbury would be a perfect combo too. Lawes always makes a belligerent impact off the bench.

beshocked wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Wood won't be in the 23, he's just there in case Robshaw gets injured as he is the most similar player to cover for him. 


Also First 15 selection was not, until some odd form decisions and Burgess decisions in RWC15, Lancaster's issue. Squad prep, underbaking the entire pack, lack of ruthlessness and awful late match tactics and subs were.

Robshaw as captain : Lancaster
Robshaw still as captain after twice fannying about and still making bad decision regarding late game kicks: Lancaster
Goode on the wing: Lancaster
Brown on the wing : Lancaster
Ditching players too early (Easter for Dowson cough) to play to the crowd and further his own career : Lancaster
Everything else: May breaking his nose (if you ask Beshocked anyway)


Joking aside though despite being a Lancaster hater from day 1 I do have some sympathy for him and injuries, a problem Johnson also faced which in both cases did as much to inform the tactics and type of sides they ended up putting out as much as a desire to be rubbish did.
Jones had a charmed first 6 months in this regard and has been able to play close to a first choice squad and keep consistency. Now he is facing the sort of situation his predecessors regularly did ...scratching around for players including those theyd already rejected.

I do worry for this Autumn, and the blow to morale and sniping loses will lead to. The honeymoon is over.

Don't forget playing Lawes at 6.

Wood at no 8.

Two inexperienced wingers vs France in 2014 6 nations with Goode on the bench as cover which clearly contributed heavily to the loss despite the Lancaster fan club feeling otherwise.

Honey moon is indeed over. Eddie Jones has done well so far but needs to not make the mistakes that Lancaster did.

Squad does look worryingly like Lancaster picked it - infatuation with a RL convert, ignoring form player like Robson, recall for two Lancaster stalwarts - Wood and Morgan who contributed to the RWC failure.

Will probably stick with Hartley as a starter which going by his current form and recent injury is a worry - that would also be a Lancaster selection (Lancaster ignored George almost completely).

More Lancaster mistakes:

Trusting Webber over George in the RWC.
Leaving Itoje out of the RWC warm up games.
Picking not fully fit players in the RWC.

I notice you're back to your best hypocrisy having a go at debutants yet calling Harrison and Wood a mistake (as they were beaten by Castre) but happy enough to play Hartley, Lawes, Mallinder and call for Chisholm having not seen him play!

When I did I claim I want Mallinder and Chisholm starting vs SA?Chisholm might well be good enough for a bench spot from what the Quins fans are saying. Mallinder needs to perform more at club level.

I would rather not start Lawes but Kruis and Itoje are injured so Lawes is the next in line.

As for Hartley, it just depends whether he's fit or not.

Does the selection of Harrison and Wood feel you with confidence?