Southgate's England and the next England manager

First topic message reminder :

Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

Livermore, Maguire & Chalobah in the England squad

England squad to face Malta and Slovakia

Dele Alli (Tottenham Hotspur), Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), Jack Butland (Stoke City), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Nathaniel Chalobah (Watford), Aaron Cresswell (West Ham United), Jermain Defoe (AFC Bournemouth), Eric Dier (Tottenham Hotspur), Joe Hart (West Ham United, on loan from Manchester City), Tom Heaton (Burnley), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Harry Kane (Tottenham Hotspur), Michael Keane (Everton), Jesse Lingard (Manchester United), Jake Livermore (West Bromwich Albion), Harry Maguire (Leicester City), Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain (Arsenal), Jordan Pickford (Everton), Marcus Rashford (Manchester United), Chris Smalling (Manchester United), Raheem Sterling (Manchester City), John Stones (Manchester City), Daniel Sturridge (Liverpool), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham Hotspur), Jamie Vardy (Leicester City), Kyle Walker (Manchester City), Danny Welbeck (Arsenal)

I think Maguire isn't a bad option. He did well last year for Hull and has looked a good signing for Leicester this year, he's also comfortable playing in a back three if Southgate continues with that. Definitely not sure Livermore or Chalobah have done enough to justify being selected, but depth in central midfield is awful. 

Other questionable choices are Aaron Cresswell whose form has been poor for a while, Defoe whose form for Sunderland dropped off and hasn't show n much at Bournemouth yet, Lingard who hasn't done much for United this year and is probably not good enough and Sturridge who has only played 60 minutes this season so far and missed a large chunk of pre-season.


Best line up I can from that squad:

Is Henderson alive then?

Not hugely in favour of the 3-4-3 for this England side, think it negates our strongest options. I'd be more tempted by it with a two striker system and Alli in behind alone, although still think it takes away a few strengths.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Is Henderson alive then?

Not hugely in favour of the 3-4-3 for this England side, think it negates our strongest options. I'd be more tempted by it with a two striker system and Alli in behind alone, although still think it takes away a few strengths.

Played well on wednesday night. First time I can remember thinking that in a while. Doesn't necessarily mean he is alive though...

Yeah Henderson played really well on Wednesday, was out of rhythm the first couple of games for sure but he looked back to his usual self on Wednesday. I'd rather England didn't play him at all and stuck Livermore there, but that's just because I want him to come back unscathed. 

The problem with a two striker formation is that it immediately exposes England's biggest weakness which is a lack of quality central players. Okay we've got Alli further forward, but who plays behind them? Dier, Henderson and Livermore? Chalobah? It's just exposing the parts of the side that lack depth.

I do think choosing 3-4-3 would be Southgate simply following a trend and it may be difficult to implement at international level with not all the players familiar, but looking at that side, the only player who hasn't played in that formation in recent years is Jack Butland and Ryan Bertrand which shouldn't be a major problem. Chelsea have been playing it, Spurs have been playing it, Manchester City have been playing it and Henderson played in that system in the 14/15 season with Liverpool. I think it highlights the strengths of England which are it's full-backs and wide players right now. It protects the lack of central midfielders and also helps out the centre defenders.

You can play 3-4-1-2 without doing any of that unnecessary worrying.

But our strength going forward is gonna be limited by relying on Walker and Rose (which is what it will be) - I really don't think they'd be a threat for England

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:You can play 3-4-1-2 without doing any of that unnecessary worrying.

But our strength going forward is gonna be limited by relying on Walker and Rose (which is what it will be) - I really don't think they'd be a threat for England

It works for Tottenham? Attacking wise the only swap you're making is Eriksen for Sterling which isn't a huge downgrade, a change in style obviously.

England 0-0 Germany HT

Loftus-Cheek being made out to be the next Pele. Pickford showcasing why he should be the #1

Reasonable half. Loftus Cheek brave enough to try something different and its paying off. Trippier an outlet all the time. Abraham looks a handful.

But Germany look incisive whenever they get forward.

Hummels has been a class apart from everyone else, especially his fellow defenders

Jesse Lingard might be the worst player to consistently make England squads ever - he’s awful

GSC wrote:Hummels has been a class apart from everyone else, especially his fellow defenders

Absolutely. Must have been a hand full of times he was in one on one positions and simply snuffed out the danger.

Actually thought England were much better than they've been for months - not great but at least encouraging that the team seemed to know what they were trying to do and there was some movement off the ball when we had possession. The formation seemed to work quite well, and Dier seemed well suited to that pivot position in front of the back 3 - he may not be the quickest, but he's an intelligent player both at picking his passes and at knowing when to cover back for one of the defenders going forward.

Pickford was good - did well to clean up after Maguire's mistake early on and then made a couple of good saves.
Three defenders generally did a good job overall and (Maguire especially) grew into the game.
Trippier had some good moments, but needs to work on his final ball if he's playing as a wing back rather than full back. Can probably say the same about Rose. I prefer Trippier to Walker in this system though (Walker is too careless with possession)
Livermore is obviously just a stop gap. He's a trier, but for me lacks a bit of technical quality. Compare with Loftus-Cheek, who looks to have a bit of everything bar experience.
Abraham is definitely a work in progress - did some good things but really needs to work on his passing and link up play. Young and with potential
Vardy offers pace and is usually a decent finisher, but I see him being an impact sub in summer, with Kane, Alli, Rashford etc being ahead of him.

Tarkowski and Pope get call ups

Goalkeepers: Joe Hart, Jordan Pickford, Jack Butland, Nick Pope

Defenders: Kyle Walker, Kieran Tripper, Ryan Bertrand, Danny Rose, John Stones, James Tarkowski, Alfie Mawson, Joe Gomez, Harry Maguire

Midfielders: Eric Dier, Jack Wilshere, Jordan Henderson, Jake Livermore, Adam Lallana, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Dele Alli, Raheem Sterling, Ashley Young, Jesse Lingard, Lewis Cook

Attackers: Danny Welbeck, Jamie Vardy, Marcus Rashford

Bang average squad

Jesus! It's not until you see the squad written down that you realise how sh!t it is.

The lack of chances being afforded to young English players in the Premier League is really coming home to roost.

This might just be a transitional generation and the next (already internationally successful) flock of young players might break through, but they're going to find it harder than their predecessors from earlier generations.

Not all that hard to imagine all of the home countries managers picking the majority of their squad from the English Championship soon.

The team actually played not bad tonight. Passed well, defended well. Played out from the back...

Jesse Lindgard v Dele Ali is a one horse race at the moment...ALi should not even be in the squad on his brief sub run out tonight...!

Good luck with that job, Koeman. You’re going to need it. You know you’ve got problems, when Henderson rocks up & dominates the midfield.

Very true...

Good performance and an actually likeable England performance. Still plenty of questions and unsure you get the best of Walker there or the best going forward down the right by losing him at wing back.

Sterling infuriates

Will Alli play better than others with Iane?

Kane’s goal threat > Rashford’s pace and energy

Henderson played so I’m sad

It's coming home, lads...

Guess we now know why they didn't qualify

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Sterling infuriates

It’s what happens, when you take world class players around him away. Nothing we didn’t know already.

Decent to good performance from England - I think we actually have some promise, but there are still some issues to deal with, and the WC is at least a season too soon for us to expect to make respectable progress.

Pickford did all that was asked of him. Back 3 defended well and used the ball effectively including all three being bold enough to run the ball out on occasion. Pleasantly surprised by Walker as a right side CB, while Maguire just seems to have 'it'.
Still not entirely sold on Rose in particular as a wing back - needs to work on his crossing, although he got into good positions a few times. Trippier a bit better, but I think the same criticism applies.

Ox-C and Lingard had good moments in the more advanced midfield roles, and I thought while Sterling and Rashford weren't great they were better than their replacements. I don't think the performances of any of the strikers will have really worried Kane.

Which leaves Henderson. For me, he's just too passive with the ball, although he does the rest of the midfield pivot role effectively. In this system, he's not required to play box to box, just to link play and keep the shape of the team, and I think Dier does this better. I know others will have different opinions.

Oh, but how poor were the Netherlands? While the stats suggest they had the better of the game, their few half chances almost always came from typical England sloppiness (such as the inaccurate throw in at the end of the first half), they really created little and didn't have any pace that could stretch our defence.

The World Cup will be utterly dreadful due to being hosted in Russia (I for one won’t be watching), but the addition of VAR will make it worse.

The VAR system clearly isn’t ready yet, as the footballing fraternity hasn’t adapted to it. Another worrying development seems to be that rather than focusing on the howler, as in cricket which works quite well, VAR will make any 50-50 call up for grabs, like in rugby where you get treated to endless slow-mo replays of seemingly innocuous incidents.

Yes, VAR will add, rather than negate, controversy at the Russian World Cup.

As for the game, a dire performance from England. The Italians were a slight step up on the Dutch and, unsurprisingly, it ended up being a real struggle for us.

On a positive, Panama just got banged 6-0 by Switzerland, so we might not be coming home after a week this time around.

What annoyed me was that the ref looked at the VAR, saw the defender stand on the attackers foot and gave the pen.

He however missed the complete lack of any contact to the Italians shin, which he proceeded to roll around the floor clutching like he had been hacked by a machete.

Why did he not pull the Italian up for blatant cheating!

As to the game...

Not great but on the other hand...I actually see the beginnings of potentially a very good side. We'll not make much impression at the world cup, but after that if we continue with this system, the lines of running, the passing, one or two more cultured midfielders etc then there is potential.

Sterling showed up well.

Lindegaard v Ali - Interesting call. Id go for Lindegaard.

England were alright and the better team, losing intensity once the subs came on. Italy are better than at least half the teams at the World Cup.

Pickford beats Butland so far.

I like the Walker experiment, but unsure Trippier is that good. Needs Kane there so that there’s someone to actually cross to.

Tarkowski looked a bit slow.

Would like to see Alli play in central midfield. Or Lallana (and Wilshere is still missed) because Dier, Henderson and Ox cannot pass.

Sterling and Lingard have a good understanding and should be starting.

I’m getting very frustrated with VAR. Can they not change it so captains can challenge two decisions per match - as with cricket? That’s much more sensible.

The concept of a clear and obvious error also isn’t being used correctly. Clearly the one last night was soft - the attacker was falling over before anyone touched his foot - and shouldn’t have been given.

Conversely, the offside issue seems to massively favour defenders. If the linesman sticks his flag up and the referee blows, then a goal can’t stand even if the decision is then shown to be wrong. However, any tight decision where a goal is scored will be reviewed. If an attacker has a hair in front of a defender then that is seeing goals ruled out. Just doesn’t fit to me with an objective of seeing more goals scored.

Var is rubbish.

Doesn't seem to be a view point that a trial can fail...

Even for black and white things it is rubbish, e.g. Offside.

Rule isn't written for 4K resolution and ultra slow mo reviews to see if an attackers toe is beyond a defenders.

Should just dump it as a failed experiment.

VAR should be kept for goal line decisions. And only those.

We already have goal line technology.

Don't even get me started on that.

Please do. What’s your issue with goal line technology?

It's not 100% accurate and it is inconsistent to have technology for the ball going out of play in only one area of the pitch.

Another stupid idea.

It’s more accurate than a linesman some distance away though. Goal line technology has been an excellent addition to the game which stops obvious howlers. Agree on VAR though - needs a complete re-think.

It has had minimal benefit, there are rarely issues with determining if the ball has crossed the goal line or not- now we just accept when the system (that may or may not be correct) says so.

Problem with VAR seems to be refs not using it at all well.

Bemoaning goal line technology is probably the most Ent thing Ent has ever done

It amazes me how easy rugby makes the TMO look compared to the VAR in football

To be fair we've had TMO in rugby since it was available...so we're very experienced however whilst its 97% right...even Rugby doesn't get the decisions 100% right.

It will take time for football to get used to it.

the problem with football and var is no one knows exactly what constitutes a foul, me personally cringe when i see a player go down under slight contact but others on here will say there was contact so its a foul. rugby is slightly easier, high tackle, getting over the line, forward pass are all pretty black and white. the asking of a correct question also helps i.e any reason not to award a try means that unless there is clear evidence to suggest otherwise then a try will be given. similar in cricket with the on field decision being reverted to in any close calls

var in football needs to concentrate on ruling out the glaring mistakes not 50/50 decisions. it will allow the game to flow better. but so far only seen it a few times where it has cleared a obvious error. more often than not its a decision that still is debatable.

Inspiring squad named.

No shelvey...when the side is crying out for creativity!!

They'll be home pretty quickly.

Know I harp on about him, but been revealed James Maddison was going to train with the England squad pre world cup - but picked up a knee injury in the last game of last season, so didn't get the chance too.

Wouldn't be surprised to see him in the squad come September...heck of a talent.

Vardy retires from international football and Cahill has said he’s “taking a step back.”

Interesting to see who takes the forward slot. Not got a lot of options, he may choose to pick another midfielder and consider Welbeck, Rashford and Sterling as back up to Kane.

From what I’ve watched so far this season, a good few changes need to be made. Debate is open to whether this should be a carrying on of the team that got the semi-finals or time to move and grow. Likely a mix, obviously, but I agree more with the latter. I know these aren’t “friendlies” as such, any longer, but I think the build to 2020 starts now and the project needs to carry on.

Vardy is a shame to lose, given our poor striker choices, but it’s pretty much Kane or bust anyway. Cahill is done whether he chooses to be or not.

The World Cup squad was:

Goalkeepers: Jack Butland (Stoke City), Jordan Pickford (Everton), Nick Pope (Burnley)

Defenders: Trent Alexander-Arnold (Liverpool), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Fabian Delph (Manchester City), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Harry Maguire (Leicester City), Danny Rose (Tottenham Hotspur), John Stones (Manchester City), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham Hotspur), Kyle Walker (Manchester City), Ashley Young (Manchester United)

Midfielders: Dele Alli (Tottenham Hotspur), Eric Dier (Tottenham Hotspur), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), Jesse Lingard (Manchester United), Ruben Loftus-Cheek (Chelsea)

Forwards: Harry Kane (Tottenham Hotspur), Marcus Rashford (Manchester United), Raheem Sterling (Manchester City), Jamie Vardy (Leicester City), Danny Welbeck (Arsenal)

On standby: Lewis Cook (Bournemouth), Tom Heaton (Burnley), Adam Lallana (Liverpool), Jake Livermore (West Bromwich Albion), James Tarkowski (Burnley)


Generally, Keepers are an easy issue here, except for Pope’s fitness. If not Pope, I’d pick Alex McCarthy, but Heaton would be a fine shout too.

In defence, Cahill is gone, Jones is struggling and probably ill-suited to the way England want to play. Joe Gomez should come in, based on current form and past England performances. Would question whether you can play him and Walker in a defence together, but it’s a squad place so that’s fine.

After that, I’ve watched a lot of Coady so far this season and think he has all the forward attributes Southgate would want, but is not a particularly good defender. Michael Keane still isn’t okaying well. Tarkowski was next in line, but Burnley haven’t been great. However, it would be between him and Lascelles, and it feels to me that he deserves his time in the full squad for now. For the solid and simpler defensive style, Tomkins has started the season well but should be way down the list.

Full backs are interesting. Trippier and TAA are easy picks; it’s a shame the latter can’t somehow be wedged in too as he’s excellent.

Left back is where I’d make changes. Young was ok but should be replaced sooner rather than later. Rose has just come back in at Spurs and has talent, so I’d maybe keep him but he’s got to really do more to earn his place. Man to bring in is Luke Shaw, basically the only positive at Man United this season. Another option is Chilwell, and I would be tempted to get him in and Rose to miss this one. I have enjoyed what I’ve watched from him this season and the end of last. Bertrand has done alright in three games but I’d put him behind those three. I’d drop Delph too, with versatility less important now and him not excelling anywhere. But Southgate likes him.

With Delph out, I’d have a space for a new midfielder. Lewis Cook will be considered. He’s far more suited to this England team than Shelvey, and fills the need for a better deep passer. But he isn’t cementing a place at Bournemouth so I’m unsure.

After that, it’s interesting to see if Southgate is making brave changes. Do we need Dier? I think he’ll stay, as much due to experience as anything else. He’ll probably fancy bringing Lallana back in, but I wouldn’t. Ruben Loftus Cheek hasn’t played this season, so he might drop out, which could be harsh.

Options to bring in are mixed. Jack Wilshere has started the season better than West Ham’s results suggest, but I’d be looking for a longer run of football and a bigger impact still.

Will Hughes has started the season really well and deserves to be looked at. His promise feels like it has been talked about for years, but it is starting to flourish in the top flight.

However, I’d be surprised if Phil Foden wasn’t right on the cusp of a call to the senior squad. I’d bring him in for Delph.

I would then take James Maddison in for RLC, but could also see that one being a next squad idea.

With the forwards, Rashford and Kane are obvious, as is Sterling. Vardy’s retirement leaves a space. He’s a natural striker, so you might want a direct replacement, but when the only option seems to be Sturridge, it’s time to look elsewhere.

The elsewhere leads to Jadon Sancho, who is impressing in Germany and full of potential. With poor options, potential should get the chance.

Then, on the basis of Kane being the only pure striker, Welbeck is gonna have to stay in. He’s got a good England record and can probably boat of being a better penalty box player than anyone else who might replace Kane.

That’s based on it being 23 men. If it’s 25, then it’d be two of RLC, Rose and Delph.

I’d pick:

Pickford
Butland
McCarthy
Trippier
TAA
Walker
Gomez
Maguire
Stones
Tarkowski
Chilwell
Shaw
Henderson
Dier
Foden
Maddison
RLC
Delph
Lingard
Alli
Rashford
Kane
Sterling
Sancho
Welbeck


I’ll have missed someone, and a couple of those are picked more cos I think Southgate will. Personally, Dier is a centre back and he’d be in for Tarkowski and I’d pick Will Hughes.

Don't really think Vardy is any kind of loss under Southgate. Would say Welbeck when fit is a better reserve in this setup.

GSC wrote:Don't really think Vardy is any kind of loss under Southgate. Would say Welbeck when fit is a better reserve in this setup.

He's not particularly, but we aren't blessed with strikers.

It probably pushes Callum Wilson into contention, which would be deserved. I don't think Tammy Abrahams will be far from Southgate's thoughts, but I think he needs some time getting more first team football. Definitely the same for Solanke. Walcott is scoring goals but seems like he was left behind.

Sessegnon could also squeeze into this squad, I completely forgot him, and again I think no Vardy is leaving a space for someone to be tried out, but I also kind of hope that Southgate remembers the value of the u21s. Abrahams, Calvert-Lewin, Sancho and Sessegnon would all be huge players for the younger side. Foden too.

England squad announced

Goalkeepers: Jack Butland, Alex McCarthy, Jordan Pickford.

Defenders: Trent Alexander-Arnold, Joe Gomez, Harry Maguire, Danny Rose, Luke Shaw, John Stones, James Tarkowski, Kieran Trippier, Kyle Walker.

Midfielders: Dele Alli, Fabian Delph, Eric Dier, Jordan Henderson, Adam Lallana, Jesse Lingard, Ruben Loftus-Cheek.

Forwards: Harry Kane, Marcus Rashford, Danny Welbeck, Raheem Sterling.

So much for the youth infusion...

The surprise is how few surprises he included.

I knew he’d be gagging to get Lallana back in. I like him, but he’s done nothing to get that place back.

Think Delph’s inclusion is dumb, Will Hughes would be a far better choice. If you’re not using the younger players to (and no arguments here) keep them going through the system, then Hughes is your firm bet and has grown well.

Wilson for Lallana would be my other change, all three of our backups to Kane are better as wide forwards, not to mention Welbeck is injury prone, Sterling’s finishing is questionable and Rashford gets rare minutes.

Maddison, Sancho, Foden, Chilwell etc go to u21s, I presume.

I don't think England were actually as good as what many people thought imo. The gloss of a semi final appearance overshadows problems that England have had in the past. Of course it has been an improvement on the downright woeful Hodgson era as well as the joke of an Allardyce "era". Southgate has certainly provided stability and a good platform to build on, but I can't help but think this England is much like the one from 10+ years ago, with some suttle differences.

Against the top/better opposition, England once again struggle. The Belgium game can be written off because it was a different circumstance in terms of the best route to progress, but the game against Croatia being a major disappointment because they failed to beat a good side. Not a top nation imo, but by no means pushovers and obviously a talented side, but they aren't a Brazil/France/Spain. Sneaking wins against Colombia and Sweden as well. They are both decent national sides, but are both bang average really and whilst England did beat them both, again, much like the England of 10 years ago, they could beat the sides that were worse than them, but against the sides of similar/better quality nations, they struggle to perform. A lack of creativity and forward runners in midfield is a concern and something that needs to be addressed, whether it will come through a younger player, or somebody such as Lingard/Lallana/Alli that will play a different role of the creator in the national side as I think them 3 players do have the quality to create with the correct movement.