Southgate's England and the next England manager

First topic message reminder :

Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

I expect a lot of teams will be more defensive than people's ideals. France won the World Cup with a secure team rather than every talent they could fit. 

I think part of it is that getting systems as second nature is hard in international management. So they add a little security, probably to cover for mistakes. 

Southgate looks to me like he wants to be able to play both systems. I hope he does too, subs and the squad will be important. If it's 5 with a two in front of Rice and Henderson/Phillips then it's a worry. 

I also hope he plays Ben White if we go into a five as I think he's classier on the ball than the alternatives and would help our left side, especially as neither Chilwell nor Shaw really frighten as attackers.

The Telegraph reckoning that Southgate might be playing three centre-backs - Walker, Stones and Shaw - with Chilwell as a left wing-back and James or Trippier as right wing-back.

I hope not.

5ATB with two full backs as the LCB and RCB could be interesting. Would allow one to overlap most of the time and should have some decent end product in the final third.

Shocking scene at the Euro’s. match will probably be abondoned, maybe the tournament? Christian Eriksen has collapsed and receiving CPR.

Awful, awful stuff

Just John wrote:Shocking scene at the Euro’s. match will probably be abondoned, maybe the tournament? Christian Eriksen has collapsed and receiving CPR.

Awful, awful stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-pz-DVjvRs

Poor guy. get well real quick

Transferred to hospital and stabilised is the latest

Very sad/scary to see. Hopefully will be ok.
Liked the way the danish team shielded him.

Well done to the medical team.

Really don't think this game should've been restarted today

Joao Cancelo has tested positive for Covid, and is out of Euro 2021. Timothy Castagne is also out of Euro 2021, with a double fracture of his eye socket.

Few sources claiming this is the England line up: Pickford, Walker, Stones, Mings, Trippier; Rice, Phillips; Foden, Mount, Sterling; Kane

https://www.606v2.com/t70223-euro-2020-thread-11th-june-11th-july

Think this is the main thread now.

Just John wrote:Joao Cancelo has tested positive for Covid, and is out of Euro 2021. Timothy Castagne is also out of Euro 2021, with a double fracture of his eye socket.

Few sources claiming this is the England line up: Pickford, Walker, Stones, Mings, Trippier; Rice, Phillips; Foden, Mount, Sterling; Kane

I wouldn't be unhappy with that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57829927

Rashford finally getting his issues sorted out with an operation, though it's scandalous that it's dragged on this long.

Also sounds as though the FA are getting hauled up (rightfully so) for the disgraceful scenes at Wembley.

England's first game since the penalty loss to Italy is tonight - away to Hungary. Probably the toughest game on England's WC Qualifying list.

Southgate has gone for the attacking 4-3-3 formation and appears to be targeting victory.

England XI: Pickford, Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw, Phillips, Rice, Mount, Grealish, Sterling, Kane.

Raheem upsetting the racists. Inject it

Job done. And World Cup qualification practically secured.

Sterling getting the assist probably upsetting the Hungarians even more.

Rice drank from one of those cups that was thrown.

Best not try the same with the flare that just got lobbed onto the field!

Whatever Hungary managed at the euros, they barely turned up. Once England went ahead it was over as a contest. Not much to take away, pretty routine win, Poland should offer more next week

For years we've argued that the England team has often been less than the sum of its parts, so it is an odd feeling to watch what is not as strong a team on paper continue to get results.

Very solid performance, especially the second half. Also of course very disappointing behaviour from the Hungarian fans with the throwing stuff onto the pitch and (apparently) racist chanting.

FIFA are expected to take harsh measures, including giving them a stern talking to, and possibly extending to awarding them the next world cup

Slightly disappointing to only get the draw last night, conceding in injury time to about the only decent chance Poland created in the second half.

A lot of possession but with a lack of a cutting edge at times - it seemed to be a game that was crying out for someone like Sancho or Saka to add to the ball carrying, perhaps at the expense of Mount (moving Grealish back a bit). Also, last 15 should have seen Walker subbed - he'd played pretty well but was clearly tiring after doing more in the attacking third than has been his way recently. Got caught out of position a bit in the run-up to the equaliser, although was certainly not the only player who could have done more to stop the threat. In time I can see us being better with Alexander-Arnold at right back, as he definitely offers more going forward - would justify the on-going selection of two fairly defensive midfielders.

Not one of Sterling's better games - ran down a lot of blind alleys and had little end product.

It was typical Southgate, really. Didn't make a single substitution all game while Poland changed up half their team. Clueless in-game management is Southgate's trademark.

Sterling often gets very little support down the right flank and is isolated. When England attack down the left with Grealish or Mount you'll often see Shaw making overlapping runs and drawing defenders away from the man in possession; you rarely see Walker do the same thing when England attack down the right.

Ultimately the result doesn't matter because England have (pretty much) already qualified and the final four games are the easiest you could imagine.

Watched this one . Messy first half but England rather dominated the second and probably wasted some opportunities - but in truth they seemed to have it all under control until literally the last five minutes.

Should he have made substitutions then ? After the fact - yes. But if he had subbed a couple of defenders with ten minutes to go and the new men got caught cold and the equalizer gone in I am sure the net would be going nuts with "why the devil did they change a winning set up "

I'm not too bothered. Still five points clear and I doubt they're getting caught.

By the way it is true Grealish and Mount (and Shaw) were busy up forward on the left : but was anyone else just a little disappointed they didn't turn any of their efforts into a serious attack on the Polish goal ? Seems to me sometimes that they are almost more interested in jigging around just inside the area in hopes of drawing a penalty rather than setting up a proper shot.

Alfie

I think the more obvious change was earlier to bring on one of Sancho or Saka - despite my comment about the lack of end product from Sterling, he did stretch the defence, and I think another player with similar attributes on the other wing would have created more chances.

I think the problem on the left is that sometimes Grealish and Mount want to play in the same area (around the corner of the penalty area), which puts them too close and drags another defender into that zone, so means there's no space for either of them or for Shaw to go outside. There was one moment where Mount cut inside and looked for a curler into the top corner, but executed it poorly, but I kind of get your criticism that again there's a bit of a lack of end product.

England ease to a 5-0 win over Andorra.

Scotland's chances of making the play-offs boosted by a come-from-behind win over Israel. Scotland now just need wins in Moldova and the Faroe Islands to make the play-offs. Wales are clinging on to their own chances of making the play-offs, but they likely need big wins over Estonia and Belarus (or a point or three v Belgium) to make it. Northern Ireland's hopes are effectively over after they lost in Switzerland tonight.

Disappointing 1 all draw ... Hungary earned their point I think. But England will not be happy with that performance against a team they beat 4-0 away. Maybe were a bit overconfident this time ?

Also might show that picking a host of attacking players doesn't always translate into goals...

Serbia got a last-minute winner in Lisbon, meaning that they have qualified for the World Cup and Portugal will be forced into the play-offs. The European play-offs for 2022 are a semi-final and a final, both over one leg, so it's potentially perilous stuff for Portugal from here, though they will be seeded.

Spain, France, Croatia, Germany and Belgium are all comfortably through to the World Cup. England are 99.99% there.  

If Italy slip up in Belfast, and Switzerland beat Bulgaria at home, then Italy will also be forced through the play-off system. Italy have had a rubbish WC record since winning in 2006 - knocked out in the group stages in 2010 and 2014, didn't even qualify in 2018.

If the Dutch lose at home to Norway they might even miss the play-offs entirely, but one point will see them safely through to Qatar.

Quite a few games left in the uncomplicated South American system, but Brazil, Argentina and Ecuador are all looking comfortable. Only four points separate 4th placed Chile and 9th placed Bolivia so it's tightly poised over there. Uruguay might miss out completely.

Usual teams are qualifying from Asia and will, as usual, do nothing of note in the tournament proper. Africa's complicated and interminable system is going along as normal. In North America there's a decent chance, it seems, of Canada making their first World Cup since 1986 and joining the usual USA/Mexico who are cruising to another World Cup. Hope Canada get in.

In the nicest way, this is a waste of time.

There has to come a time when qualification is tiered, these games achieve nothing.

Yep, complete waste of time. Still England have qualified for their seventh World Cup in a row, apparently the first time they've achieved that. With the expansion of teams to 48 in 2026, it's difficult to see England missing out ever again.

NI got a draw v Italy. Italy will be going through the congested play-offs as a result.

Soul Requiem wrote:There has to come a time when qualification is tiered, these games achieve nothing.

Other than padding Harry Kane's goal scoring stats, there's nothing to gain for teams of England's status, and no point in San Marino just being put out there as cannon fodder.

Moving forward, it looks like there will be 16 UEFA nations in the World Cup, which screams out to me 8 qualifying groups and top 2 to go through. Currently there are 55 nations in UEFA - 8 groups of 5 looks most sensible, so knocking 15 nations out in pre-qualifying. Say 20 nations to go through pre-qualifying with 5 going through to the qualification groups proper along with 35 already qualified. The alternative would be to have 48 in the groups proper, so only needing to eliminate 7 in pre-qualification

How to select for pre-qualification? Could go with the bottom 2 of each qualifying group this time, or could be based on FIFA rankings.

With the ever expanding World Cup (48 as Duty notes in 2026), and the Euros heading a similar way...why don't FIFA/UEFA just cut the rubbish and automatically qualify the top 16 or so nations? It's clear it's being expanded to avoid the "major" nations who bring in the real ££££ missing out, avoid all these nonsense "qualifying" games which do nothing for anybody and enter the top guys, and let those who are similarly skilled/rated compete for the final qualifying spots.

So have a closed shop for the top nations and everyone else qualifying to join them. Sounds a bit like the much maligned Super league attempt

I don't agree with top nations automatically qualifying. But there is an extreme gap between the top nations in European qualifying and the bottom, to the point where some of these games make a PL Vs league 2 fa cup game look competitive.

International football needs to trim a lot of fat generally, I don't think it's a controversial thing to say the worst sides have a pre qualifying stage to join to bigger and mid level nations.

I completely agree with pre-qualifying and probably something along the lines dummy half's post above

But for the smaller nations its probably about money generated when the big boys come to town

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59371397

Southgate has signed a rather odd contract extension taking him through to December 2024. Odd in the sense that I thought an international contract would usually expire at the end of a tournament, instead this one lands between Euro 2024 and the 2026 World Cup - a bit like Terry Venables being offered a contract extension past Euro 1996, but only up to December 1997, which irked him so much he packed his bags and had it away on his toes after Euro 96.

If Southgate sees this contract through he'll have been in charge for two European Championships (I'm presuming England qualify in 2024!) and two World Cups, the longest stint by an England manager since Bobby Robson.

I'm not the greatest fan of Southgate as manager, he'll be gutted to hear that I know, but I obviously hope he can win a tournament before his time expires. He has a fantastic generation of English attacking talent to work with.

Mind-boggling extension. Just securing his financial future, and the FA oblige. Three year contract, and a massive pay off heading his way, if we divebomb at the WC.

Obviously, he’s living off the previous two tournaments, but you feel his prolonged stay, will only hinder the development of this exciting generation. He’s been exposed for his lack of in-game management, and even though the football England play, may gain results, aided by some serious luck along the way, the actual performances and style of play, is pretty awful.

Football is a results business, and Southgate has achieved better results in competitions than any England boss since Sir Alf Ramsey. Contract extension was inevitable, even if some of the fans question his tactics.

While not always exciting to watch, possession ball is definitely the way for England to succeed at international level, especially playing tournaments in summer in warmer climates - you can't just bomb around like a mid-season Premier League game. Oh, and most of the time it's not as though we don't score plenty of goals, just occasional matches like Italy in the EC final and the home qualifier against Hungary where we can be nullified.

Of course it might be that Southgate has achieved all he's going to as the England manager, and with hindsight this extension is a mistake, but he's done a god job of steadying the ship and getting players with pride in turning out for England again, something that perhaps wasn't always the case under the last few managers.

As coach, the circle he has to square is that we have several talented young players, but they all play in the same areas (attacking midfield / number 10), and with the defence being a bit iffy, so balancing the team selection isn't straightforward.

If I'm following this correctly, Portugal and Italy are in the same bracket and can't both qualify?

It would appear so, FIFA do have this habit of complicating something that should be quite simply.

Wales vs Austria, then the winner of Scotland/Ukraine. Both in Cardiff if they beat Austria. I’d have taken that all day.

Didn't realise it was the play-off draw today. Yep, that is correct.

Path A - Wales v Austria. Scotland v Ukraine.  All four teams in that path will fancy their chances. The winners of Wales/Austria will be the home team in the final. Winners of the final are in the World Cup.

Path B - Russia v Poland. Sweden v the Czechs. Another tight path. Winners of Russia/Poland get home advantage in the final. Winners of the final are in the World Cup.

Path C - Italy v North Macedonia. Portugal v Turkey. Portugal (or Turkey!) get home advantage in the final. Winners of the final are in the World Cup.

All games are one-leg, winner-takes-all. Hope Portugal get turned over, but home advantage could be crucial for them. Would be quite something for the European Champions to miss out.

Path A and B very tough to predict, Russia might be favourites in Path B because of home advantage.

Wales' best chance of reaching a World Cup in yonks; a 'Battle of Britain' final could set the hype machine into overdrive.

Italy and Portugal only have themselves to blame for not getting through as group winners - finishing behind Switzerland and Serbia respectively in qualification is not a good performance. Fancy Italy to make it through ultimately, but they've made it complicated for themselves.

Both British sides should be reasonably happy with their draws, particularly Wales with home advantage - winnable first round matches and potentially each other in a winner takes all qualification final.

Can't call Path B, other than if Poland get through I bet England draw them in the WC finals group as well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60285799

Host bid for 2030 abandoned; focus instead on Euro 2028.

Personally I think the state of English football crowds is in a very worrying state, and we could be heading back to the dark days of the 70s. It was a minor miracle no one was killed or seriously injured at the disgraceful Euro 2020 final at Wembley, we're seeing more concerning scenes of violence at English football grounds (e.g. some Leicester fans behaved appallingly in Nottingham yesterday), and this seems to be fuelled by a cocaine epidemic amongst under-30s. We've also got the usual horrendous state of violence and intimidation at grassroots football which means a lack of referees (not unique to England).

The FA needs to combat this rather than putting in fanciful bids for international tournaments.

Duty281 wrote:We've also got the usual horrendous state of violence and intimidation at grassroots football which means a lack of referees (not unique to England).

It horrifies me, the level of intimidation at grassroots football. I occasionally pop down to my local non league team with my boys and some of the abuse directed at the lino is appalling. Way beyond banter. You get the usual "did you get the bus here with (insert opposition team name)" or " does your mum know you're out on your own". That is pretty amusing and generally harmless but then you get the "you're a f*cking c*nt, lino. You haven't got a f*cking clue you absolute w*nker" or words to that effect. There was some team from the midlands playing here the other week and there was this chap who disagreed with a decision the lino made and launched into a, quite frankly, disgusting tirade against him. Leaning over the hoardings, shouting at full volume, accusing him of being a "cheating c*nt" and "some kind of f*cking useless tw*t" were just a couple of comments. Someone then pointed out there were kids around at which point he apologised (not to the lino) and wandered off. At the end of the game, I saw him in the tunnel talking to someone. Turns out he was an official from the visiting side! I kid you not. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

It is sometimes appalling at youth level as well. The very fact there has to be a "Respect line" 1.5 metres back from the touchline as parents can't control themselves is bad enough but some of the stuff you hear even at little kiddies games is genuinely shocking. One of my daughters was playing in a game just before Christmas and there were a few meaty challenges flying in and I heard one of the mums from the opposition team tell her daughter to "stamp on the b*tch" next time" (not about my daughter I should add!). Fortunately, the safeguarding officer (yep, every team needs one present at all games!) from their team overheard it and told her to leave the playing area. She initially refused having denied saying it. Someone else spoke up and reiterated what she had said, at which point she apologised but still refused to leave as her daughter was playing. It got to the point where the coaches from the teams had to come round to her and tell her that the game wouldn't continue if she didn't leave. At which point she marched onto the pitch, grabbed her daughter by the arm and left. This was at at an U12's game! What hope has that poor kid got with a parent like that.

This will end with some poor young ref being knifed to death outside the changing room. That is the logical conclusion to the hatred and bitterness that appears to be rife at grassroots.

My daughter has recently started playing U10s, and so far I'm very impressed with the attitude that the coaches are trying to instill. I don't mind the 'respect' line, indeed it or something similar should be present at all games so that those on the sidelines engage brain before opening mouth. Already though seen a few instances of players (opponents so far) being little oiks, just with silly things like kicking the ball away and complaining to the ref.

However, I have on occasion wandered past our Sunday League team, and I just won't take the kids near it because the language is absolutely disgraceful, and mostly aimed at the ref. Oh, and this is in a nice, middle class part of the Home Counties - I can only imagine what it's like in Hackney.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Duty281 wrote:We've also got the usual horrendous state of violence and intimidation at grassroots football which means a lack of referees (not unique to England).

It horrifies me, the level of intimidation at grassroots football. I occasionally pop down to my local non league team with my boys and some of the abuse directed at the lino is appalling. Way beyond banter. You get the usual "did you get the bus here with (insert opposition team name)" or " does your mum know you're out on your own". That is pretty amusing and generally harmless but then you get the "you're a f*cking c*nt, lino. You haven't got a f*cking clue you absolute w*nker" or words to that effect. There was some team from the midlands playing here the other week and there was this chap who disagreed with a decision the lino made and launched into a, quite frankly, disgusting tirade against him. Leaning over the hoardings, shouting at full volume, accusing him of being a "cheating c*nt" and "some kind of f*cking useless tw*t" were just a couple of comments. Someone then pointed out there were kids around at which point he apologised (not to the lino) and wandered off. At the end of the game, I saw him in the tunnel talking to someone. Turns out he was an official from the visiting side! I kid you not. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

It is sometimes appalling at youth level as well. The very fact there has to be a "Respect line" 1.5 metres back from the touchline as parents can't control themselves is bad enough but some of the stuff you hear even at little kiddies games is genuinely shocking. One of my daughters was playing in a game just before Christmas and there were a few meaty challenges flying in and I heard one of the mums from the opposition team tell her daughter to "stamp on the b*tch" next time" (not about my daughter I should add!). Fortunately, the safeguarding officer (yep, every team needs one present at all games!) from their team overheard it and told her to leave the playing area. She initially refused having denied saying it. Someone else spoke up and reiterated what she had said, at which point she apologised but still refused to leave as her daughter was playing. It got to the point where the coaches from the teams had to come round to her and tell her that the game wouldn't continue if she didn't leave. At which point she marched onto the pitch, grabbed her daughter by the arm and left. This was at at an U12's game! What hope has that poor kid got with a parent like that.

This will end with some poor young ref being knifed to death outside the changing room. That is the logical conclusion to the hatred and bitterness that appears to be rife at grassroots.

One solution is to get hard nuts to referee games at grassroots level. Once played a game in the notoriously rough Sunday Welfare League in Dundee where the ref looked like he'd been quarried out of granite and had prison tattoos on his forearms and hands. Sent off someone from the other team early in the first half for a horrible challenge and countered the protests with, "I got 30 days in Perth [prison] for less than that, now f*ck off". Both teams were on their best behaviour after that.

The UK and Ireland will be hosting Euro 2028...mainly because there's no other bids to host it. Default victory.

I can only hope the FA take preventative measures to ensure the scenes at the Euro 2020 final don't reoccur.

Bloody hell, Italy getting knocked out of the World Cup in the qualifying stages. The European Champions out. North Macedonia have just scored in the 92nd minute, in a home game Italy have absolutely dominated (31 shots to four). Two World Cups in a row Italy have missed, preceded by two World Cups where they didn't get out of the group stage.

Wales through to their final, beating Austria 2-1, but it won't be played until the summer. Portugal beat the Turks 3-1.

Viva Gareth Bale. He just loves Wales and it’s beautiful to see.

Duty281 wrote:The UK and Ireland will be hosting Euro 2028...mainly because there's no other bids to host it. Default victory.

Apparently Russia are bidding for it too, although they're probably a few votes short at the moment...