Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/welsh_vs_irish_victories.php

There's a graphical representation of the effect of Roger Lewis. There's a lovely divide from 2003-10 and 2010 onwards. All thanks to the 2009 Participation Agreement.

Don't know, Phil, but would think the improved performances of Ulster, and then Connacht, would be a factor of the Provinces doing better than the WRU Regions in the last few years.

Money makes a difference, but there are other factors.

The better performances are obviously directly linked to the increase spending on wages.

Money is the difference.

Then the owners of the Regions need to get their wallets out!

PhilBB wrote:The better performances are obviously directly linked to the increase spending on wages.

Money is the difference.

Not alone, it isn't. Coaching is the biggest factor in a teams success. You can have a team filled with absolute quality, but if they're badly coached they won't win silver.

marty2086 wrote:Then the owners of the Regions need to get their wallets out!

Have you not noticed that three of them are now that Roger has gone?

Munchkin wrote:
Not alone, it isn't. Coaching is the biggest factor in a teams success. You can have a team filled with absolute quality, but if they're badly coached they won't win silver.

And Coaches don't coach for free.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Then the owners of the Regions need to get their wallets out!

Have you not noticed that three of them are now that Roger has gone?

So they were playing poor to get more out of the WRU, so only have themselves to blame!

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Not alone, it isn't. Coaching is the biggest factor in a teams success. You can have a team filled with absolute quality, but if they're badly coached they won't win silver.

And Coaches don't coach for free.

Coaches don't, but if you can't afford a decent coach then you should forget about ever competing.

Munchkin wrote:
Coaches don't, but if you can't afford a decent coach then you should forget about ever competing.

There you go: you can't compete without a decent coach. And decent coaches don't turn up without money.

So money comes first.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Coaches don't, but if you can't afford a decent coach then you should forget about ever competing.

There you go: you can't compete without a decent coach. And decent coaches don't turn up without money.

So money comes first.

To a point it does. The main point being that if you can't even afford a good coach then forget about silver, or if you can afford top players, but neglect a decent coach then you will equally fail to win silver. So money is important, but money alone will not reap success. I guess it's easier to say, 'it depends on how you invest that money'.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Coaches don't, but if you can't afford a decent coach then you should forget about ever competing.

There you go: you can't compete without a decent coach. And decent coaches don't turn up without money.

So money comes first.

To a point it does. The main point being that if you can't even afford a good coach then forget about silver, or if you can afford top players, but neglect a decent coach then you will equally fail to win silver. So money is important, but money alone will not reap success. I guess it's easier to say, 'it depends on  how you invest that money'.

Good coaches aren't cheap and they don't turn up to coach crap.

Money is the first and main ingredient in success.

I'll remember your view on it next time somebody mentions Saracens, or a French club.

Jesus, this is becoming.........................

Time for Dr Phil?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Coaches don't, but if you can't afford a decent coach then you should forget about ever competing.

There you go: you can't compete without a decent coach. And decent coaches don't turn up without money.

So money comes first.

To a point it does. The main point being that if you can't even afford a good coach then forget about silver, or if you can afford top players, but neglect a decent coach then you will equally fail to win silver. So money is important, but money alone will not reap success. I guess it's easier to say, 'it depends on  how you invest that money'.

Good coaches aren't cheap and they don't turn up to coach crap.

Money is the first and main ingredient in success.

I'll remember your view on it next time somebody mentions Saracens, or a French club.

I think Connacht and, to an extent, Leicester City have proven that money isn't the main ingredient to success - considering neither had much compared to the rest.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
I think Connacht and, to an extent, Leicester City have proven that money isn't the main ingredient to success - considering neither had much compared to the rest.

Connacht have had a huge injection of finance and took advantage of the international calendar.

As for Leicester - read Ranieri's own words on the reasons. He noted that there won't be another season for a very long time where all of the top teams were so bad.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Coaches don't, but if you can't afford a decent coach then you should forget about ever competing.

There you go: you can't compete without a decent coach. And decent coaches don't turn up without money.

So money comes first.

To a point it does. The main point being that if you can't even afford a good coach then forget about silver, or if you can afford top players, but neglect a decent coach then you will equally fail to win silver. So money is important, but money alone will not reap success. I guess it's easier to say, 'it depends on  how you invest that money'.

Good coaches aren't cheap and they don't turn up to coach crap.

Money is the first and main ingredient in success.

I'll remember your view on it next time somebody mentions Saracens, or a French club.

Like Toulon?

Munchkin wrote:

Like Toulon?

Yep, they spend to the salary cap.

Salary caps. Imagine having one of those. And being able to decide yourself how to spend it.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Like Toulon?

Yep, they spend to the salary cap.

Salary caps. Imagine having one of those. And being able to decide yourself how to spend it.

They spend to the salary cap, and pay under the counter. A team to be proud of, eh? How are the big money spenders doing now, Phil? What about the coaching ticket? And then we have Montpellier. How is the big money coach doing there?

So what does that graph portray? - to each poster.

Well first, to me, it portrays Welsh/Cardiff rugby's obsession with self.
Irish v Welsh? Where are the other two Pro12 partners? Scottish teams won nothing? Where are the Italians? No importance? No significance? No meaning?
Only the Welsh/Cardiff matters and - grudgingly - the Irish bit, because the Irish bit is holding the Welsh Regions back from being what God ordained them to be?

That's my first thoughts on the graph.

PhilBB wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
I think Connacht and, to an extent, Leicester City have proven that money isn't the main ingredient to success - considering neither had much compared to the rest.

Connacht have had a huge injection of finance and took advantage of the international calendar.

As for Leicester - read Ranieri's own words on the reasons. He noted that there won't be another season for a very long time where all of the top teams were so bad.

That's a prediction not fact, he also said before it they wouldn't win the league so that tells you how good he is a t predictions

There's three ways of looking at these results from a coaching perspective:
1)Have the Regions done as well as could be expected given the quality or lack of quality of PRW Regional coaching.
2)How would the PRW Regions have fared with the Irish Provinces coaches in place and vice versa,and
3)Will PRW Regions ever reach and maintain the top of European rugby unless the overall quality of PRW coaching improves particularly with regard to team discipline,team balance and form replacing reputation as the guiding selection principle.

SecretFly wrote:So what does that graph portray? - to each poster.

Well first, to me, it portrays Welsh/Cardiff rugby's obsession with self.  
Irish v Welsh?  Where are the other two Pro12 partners?  Scottish teams won nothing?  Where are the Italians?  No importance?  No significance?  No meaning?
Only the Welsh/Cardiff matters and - grudgingly - the Irish bit, because the Irish bit is holding the Welsh Regions back from being what God ordained them to be?

That's my first thoughts on the graph.  

If you follow the link and go back up a level you'll see a load of other analyses, one of which is Welsh regions v Scottish sides historical wins. So they're there. Also it's a fan site (like this one) and these analyses are produced by 'Tom'. So one man and his analysis. So maybe one man's obsession perhaps. Not 'Welsh Rugby's'. I think you're reading far too much into it. There's an analysis of Welsh regions biggest away wins in France too. An obsession with the French???

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/analysis.php#form

Griff wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So what does that graph portray? - to each poster.

Well first, to me, it portrays Welsh/Cardiff rugby's obsession with self.  
Irish v Welsh?  Where are the other two Pro12 partners?  Scottish teams won nothing?  Where are the Italians?  No importance?  No significance?  No meaning?
Only the Welsh/Cardiff matters and - grudgingly - the Irish bit, because the Irish bit is holding the Welsh Regions back from being what God ordained them to be?

That's my first thoughts on the graph.  

If you follow the link and go back up a level you'll see a load of other analyses, one of which is Welsh regions v Scottish sides historical wins. So they're there. Also it's a fan site (like this one) and these analyses are produced by 'Tom'. So one man and his analysis. So maybe one man's obsession perhaps. Not 'Welsh Rugby's'. I think you're reading far too much into it. There's an analysis of Welsh regions biggest away wins in France too. An obsession with the French???

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/analysis.php#form

Glad to hear it, Griff.  But I've already seen the Scottish v Welsh on another thread.  Glad to see it too.

Phill's conclusion - the more money you spend the better chance you have.  That's pretty logical, self-descriptive but also only one of the reasons.  

You also have to be consistently good and honest as players and coaches - and produce consistent quality in your academies - that's a team producing its own rookies and not buying everything in.  Therefore, such teams are under no obligation to say "sorry that we're investing in our own young players (ie also giving them quality time playing) rather than selling them on to other lesser leagues and buying in experienced replacements."  
So, success Does keep coming back to the quality of home players produced - in sufficient numbers to sustain League placement even when 'Main/Internationals' are away.
Quality rugby happens in the boardroom at financial level and it happens out on the field during a game.  Sometimes the second bit is downsized in these threads.  

Like I said to Phill on another thread, even Alun Wyn Jones is now ringing the praises of the system that might not always see big players playing each week for regions but allows such players to be there for 'big' games of real meaning.  Like I said in that thread too, maybe we're all getting closer to one 'ideal' of how to run teams in Pro12 rather than actually drifting apart.

Munchkin wrote:

They spend to the salary cap, and pay under the counter. A team to be proud of, eh? How are the big money spenders doing now, Phil? What about the coaching ticket? And then we have Montpellier. How is the big money coach doing there?

Sorry, what's this proof of 'paying under the counter?

Yes, I think that Toulon are a team to be proud of. Their fans are passionate, they have a great history. And they are fifth in their league so far.

Coaches are vital, yes, but they require money and a squad to work with. I answered that above.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
I think Connacht and, to an extent, Leicester City have proven that money isn't the main ingredient to success - considering neither had much compared to the rest.

Connacht have had a huge injection of finance and took advantage of the international calendar.

As for Leicester - read Ranieri's own words on the reasons. He noted that there won't be another season for a very long time where all of the top teams were so bad.

That's a prediction not fact, he also said before it they wouldn't win the league so that tells you how good he is a t predictions

Erm, it's a reasoning for his team's success. That's the key bit you missed. Why?

From what I can view of the graph on a phone it appears to show number of wins/losses by the Irish provinces against 5 Welsh regions with Warriors now defunct.

What's the point being made by the analyst?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
I think Connacht and, to an extent, Leicester City have proven that money isn't the main ingredient to success - considering neither had much compared to the rest.

Connacht have had a huge injection of finance and took advantage of the international calendar.

As for Leicester - read Ranieri's own words on the reasons. He noted that there won't be another season for a very long time where all of the top teams were so bad.

That's a prediction not fact, he also said before it they wouldn't win the league so that tells you how good he is a t predictions

Erm, it's a reasoning for his team's success. That's the key bit you missed. Why?

I Didn't miss anything the guy has played things down from day one

Why do you focus so much on teams wealth? Because you are a sheep who's been drinking at the well of the self pitying Regions for so long that everyone else is to blame

You bleat on about private owners yet those you champion have sat with their hands out instead of investing in their teams

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

They spend to the salary cap, and pay under the counter. A team to be proud of, eh? How are the big money spenders doing now, Phil? What about the coaching ticket? And then we have Montpellier. How is the big money coach doing there?

Sorry, what's this proof of 'paying under the counter?

Yes, I think that Toulon are a team to be proud of. Their fans are passionate, they have a great history. And they are fifth in their league so far.

Coaches are vital, yes, but they require money and a squad to work with. I answered that above.

Aww, Phil, you're always sorry, but don't fret. We understand

The graph shows that the Irish provinces have improved their results against their Welsh counterparts over the last six years.

This is undoubtedly because the IRFU policies encourage Test players to stay in Ireland while Wales has seen a lot of top indigenous players move out of Wales.

marty2086 wrote:

I Didn't miss anything the guy has played things down from day one

Why do you focus so much on teams wealth? Because you are a sheep who's been drinking at the well of the self pitying Regions for so long that everyone else is to blame

You bleat on about private owners yet those you champion have sat with their hands out instead of investing in their teams

Oh, ok. We're going to go through this one again where Martyn ignores the Roger Lewis years and ignores that money is the key to professional sport.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

They spend to the salary cap, and pay under the counter. A team to be proud of, eh? How are the big money spenders doing now, Phil? What about the coaching ticket? And then we have Montpellier. How is the big money coach doing there?

Sorry, what's this proof of 'paying under the counter?

Yes, I think that Toulon are a team to be proud of. Their fans are passionate, they have a great history. And they are fifth in their league so far.

Coaches are vital, yes, but they require money and a squad to work with. I answered that above.

Aww, Phil, you're always sorry, but don't fret. We understand

So no proof. Thought not. Well done.

Generally the teams that cheat are also the teams which bury the outcome of investigations and pay for top class lawyers to make sure no one can speak out. Bath and Saracens were the ones cheating this time in the prem for instance.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I Didn't miss anything the guy has played things down from day one

Why do you focus so much on teams wealth? Because you are a sheep who's been drinking at the well of the self pitying Regions for so long that everyone else is to blame

You bleat on about private owners yet those you champion have sat with their hands out instead of investing in their teams

Oh, ok. We're going to go through this one again where Martyn ignores the Roger Lewis years and ignores that money is the key to professional sport.

I didn't ignore anything, the regions and their owners decided that they wanted the WRU to fund everything rather than spend their own money

You blame Roger Lewis for not giving them the money

Not hard to see

marty2086 wrote:

I didn't ignore anything, the regions and their owners decided that they wanted the WRU to fund everything rather than spend their own money

You blame Roger Lewis for not giving them the money

Not hard to see

Companies House disproves you.

Well done, Martyn.

I have a liking for Leinster, me. Their fans are passionate, they have a great history. And they are third in their league so far.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I didn't ignore anything, the regions and their owners decided that they wanted the WRU to fund everything rather than spend their own money

You blame Roger Lewis for not giving them the money

Not hard to see

Companies House disproves you.

Well done, Martyn.

What a clear and comprehensive answer, almost like another dodge from you

At least you're consistent

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I didn't ignore anything, the regions and their owners decided that they wanted the WRU to fund everything rather than spend their own money

You blame Roger Lewis for not giving them the money

Not hard to see

Companies House disproves you.

Well done, Martyn.

What a clear and comprehensive answer, almost like another dodge from you

At least you're consistent

It is clear and comprehensive. You can visit Companies House to see what the benefactors spent during the years Roger Lewis was trying to close them down. You know, to prove that your point was (as per normal) entirely wrong.

Give it up, Martyn, your personal crusade is making you look dumber and dumber.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

They spend to the salary cap, and pay under the counter. A team to be proud of, eh? How are the big money spenders doing now, Phil? What about the coaching ticket? And then we have Montpellier. How is the big money coach doing there?

Sorry, what's this proof of 'paying under the counter?

Yes, I think that Toulon are a team to be proud of. Their fans are passionate, they have a great history. And they are fifth in their league so far.

Coaches are vital, yes, but they require money and a squad to work with. I answered that above.

Aww, Phil, you're always sorry, but don't fret. We understand

So no proof. Thought not. Well done.

BoudjellalStroppyHissyFitThreatensToSpitHisDummyOut.

So the benefactors were spending plenty of their own private money on their own private teams, thank you very much, Martyn!

But based on presumptions on this thread (and many others of a similar vein) - not nearly enough?  Blame the WRU.

Are we back at the beginning?

Surely the beginning is 'it's the IRFU's fault'? Sure, it's also Rogers fault, but it must be the IRFU's fault that it's Rogers fault. I mean, the IRFU is the original sin

Genuine question....

Considering Wales' 6N success over the last few years, and the regions (especially Ospreys) having those players at their disposal, how come it would take millions to improve the resources and performances of the teams in Wales?

I'm wondering about the big spending Ospreys of a few years back. I dont think they fit into your views Phil

It doesn't really matter about the past, since they seem to be on an upward curve now. The more successful the Welsh teams are in the PRO12 and in Europe, the better for everyone.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I didn't ignore anything, the regions and their owners decided that they wanted the WRU to fund everything rather than spend their own money

You blame Roger Lewis for not giving them the money

Not hard to see

Companies House disproves you.

Well done, Martyn.

What a clear and comprehensive answer, almost like another dodge from you

At least you're consistent

It is clear and comprehensive. You can visit Companies House to see what the benefactors spent during the years Roger Lewis was trying to close them down. You know, to prove that your point was (as per normal) entirely wrong.

Give it up, Martyn, your personal crusade is making you look dumber and dumber.

It's also you who is on the crusade.

As for Companies House, maybe you can break down the figures there for the uneducated and ill informed amongst us and tell us how much the directors from the regions put into the teams outside of their share capital. Come on show me how dumb I am!

I'm confused as to where the wrong your/you're was?

RiscaGame wrote:I'm confused as to where the wrong your/you're was?

Lack of sleep and reading ramblings in a hurry got the better of me

Happens to the best of us.

Not gonna hear the end of it now though

Roger Lewis was head of the WRU - not sure how the Irish have a dog in the fight between him and the club owners/benefactors?
If the Irish and Scottish teams have done better than the Welsh ones, doesn't that show that its the Welsh model that is wrong or at least not working properly?
The salary cap on Welsh teams was their own decision, so they could change it any time they wanted to, surely all the multimillionaires in Wales putting money into the clubs could at least consider asking for it to be raised ?

Basically you seem to want to blame the weakness of the Welsh on the strength of the others rather than looking inwards at what's going on in Wales. It's not anyone else's fault that your professional game is not doing as well as it could be, the issues here are all about WRU/PRW conflicts.

The argument seems to be Lewis handcuffed the regions and was to blame for the lack of success despite Ospreys being successful while the Provinces got a leg up from the IRFU.

So one owner/benefactor put money into their team while others didn't and stood with their hand out waiting for the WRU to make them successful.