Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

First topic message reminder :

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/welsh_vs_irish_victories.php

There's a graphical representation of the effect of Roger Lewis. There's a lovely divide from 2003-10 and 2010 onwards. All thanks to the 2009 Participation Agreement.

marty2086 wrote:
As for Companies House, maybe you can break down the figures there for the uneducated and ill informed amongst us and tell us how much the directors from the regions put into the teams outside of their share capital. Come on show me how dumb I am!

Project Engage, the PWC Report commissioned by the WRU and (as it was then) RRW when Lewis was in full on death mode, the funding gap made up by the benefactors in the financial years 10, 11 and 12 amounted to £12.5m.

Look, I'm getting a little tired of people turning up here and pretending they don't understand Phill's famous connections and links that justify accusations of IRFU semi-complicity in the Evil Reign of Roger Lewis.

So I've put together a short youtube video to explain the overall theory.  I hope it puts an end to the nonsense from Irish posters in particular on these threads!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTOP6TOJwOI

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Genuine question....

Considering Wales' 6N success over the last few years, and the regions (especially Ospreys) having those players at their disposal, how come it would take millions to improve the resources and performances of the teams in Wales?

The Ospreys haven't had the bulk of those players since c.2010.

It is quite clear that the wage bills of their opponents in the PrO'12 are greater than being paid by PRW teams. Therein lies the answer to your question.

For example, Piatau will likely earn more than the combined non-Welsh qualified players at the Ospreys.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Genuine question....

Considering Wales' 6N success over the last few years, and the regions (especially Ospreys) having those players at their disposal, how come it would take millions to improve the resources and performances of the teams in Wales?

A lot of the key players in Wales (North, Charteris, Halfpenny, Roberts, JD2) played outside of wales so the finances would be needed to bring them back.  There is rumours of Aviva clubs offering Liam Williams more money than in Wales.

However, part of the regions failures are due to poor recruitment and coaching.  Two seasons ago we were a knock on from making the pro12 final and guarantee this year well be in the playoff hunt without a world cup disrupting the schedule.

The Blues issue was hiring crap coaches such as Baber, Burnell and P Davies and the failure to replace key players that left such as N Robinson, X Rush, Tito, J Roberts, L Halfpenny e.t.c

Also im adamant the Welsh regions are restricted by the lack of NWQ players available to play for us

True Raven wrote:

A lot of the key players in Wales (North, Charteris, Halfpenny, Roberts, JD2) played outside of wales so the finances would be needed to bring them back.  There is rumours of Aviva clubs offering Liam Williams more money than in Wales.

However, part of the regions failures are due to poor recruitment and coaching.  Two seasons ago we were a knock on from making the pro12 final and guarantee this year well be in the playoff hunt with a world cup disrupting the schedule.

The Blues issue was hiring crap coaches such as Baber, Burnell and P Davies and the failure to replace key players that left such as N Robinson, X Rush, Tito, J Roberts, L Halfpenny e.t.c

Also im adamant the Welsh regions are restricted by the lack of NWQ players available to play for us

The Irish have the same number of non-qualified players and it doesn't really hinder them. The Ospreys had 10 nWq players last season.

The crap coaches thing was all about Lewis' insistence on using WRU Level 4 qualified coaches. The key players who left couldn't be equally replaced because there was no money there to do it.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
As for Companies House, maybe you can break down the figures there for the uneducated and ill informed amongst us and tell us how much the directors from the regions put into the teams outside of their share capital. Come on show me how dumb I am!

Project Engage, the PWC Report commissioned by the WRU and (as it was then) RRW when Lewis was in full on death mode, the funding gap made up by the benefactors in the financial years 10, 11 and 12 amounted to £12.5m.

So I ask for figures and you don't provide them?

You then post a picture that clearly lays the blames for the Regions ills at the door of the Region through mismanagement and then refusing to fund them to cover shortfalls. You know like business owners are meant to do.

rom reading some of the accounts its seems the benefactors funded the regions through bank loans and restricting not by investing their own money but expected the WRU to spend theirs instead.

That's for clearing that up and showing you were yet gain on the wrong side of the argument

No doubt you will dig and till argue you are right

SecretFly wrote:Look, I'm getting a little tired of people turning up here and pretending they don't understand Phill's famous connections and links that justify accusations of IRFU semi-complicity in the Evil Reign of Roger Lewis.

So I've put together a short youtube video to explain the overall theory.  I hope it puts an end to the nonsense from Irish posters in particular on these threads!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTOP6TOJwOI

Brilliant stuff, Fly.

marty2086 wrote:

So I ask for figures and you don't provide them?

You then post a picture that clearly lays the blames for the Regions ills at the door of the Region through mismanagement and then refusing to fund them to cover shortfalls. You know like business owners are meant to do.

rom reading some of the accounts its seems the benefactors funded the regions through bank loans and restricting not by investing their own money but expected the WRU to spend theirs instead.

That's for clearing that up and showing you were yet gain on the wrong side of the argument

No doubt you will dig and till argue you are right

The figures are in the image in the post you just quoted, collected by PriceWaterhouseCooper.

The reason the shortfalls were to be refused to be covered in the future was because of the war with Lewis.

The bank loans you mention are guaranteed by the benefactors. All benefactors also loan their own money. There's £12m of it in the link I posted.

I'm not sure how spending £12m and guaranteeing bank loans etc. puts me 'on the wrong side of the argument'. You asked how much was spent, I showed you how much was spent.

Which teams are funded by bank loans, Martyn?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So I ask for figures and you don't provide them?

You then post a picture that clearly lays the blames for the Regions ills at the door of the Region through mismanagement and then refusing to fund them to cover shortfalls. You know like business owners are meant to do.

rom reading some of the accounts its seems the benefactors funded the regions through bank loans and restricting not by investing their own money but expected the WRU to spend theirs instead.

That's for clearing that up and showing you were yet gain on the wrong side of the argument

No doubt you will dig and till argue you are right

The figures are in the image in the post you just quoted, collected by PriceWaterhouseCooper.

The reason the shortfalls were to be refused to be covered in the future was because of the war with Lewis.

The bank loans you mention are guaranteed by the benefactors. All benefactors also loan their own money. There's £12m of it in the link I posted.

I'm not sure how spending £12m and guaranteeing bank loans etc. puts me 'on the wrong side of the argument'. You asked how much was spent, I showed you how much was spent.

No I asked you to

how much the directors from the regions put into the teams outside of their share capital

Instead you go for a fluffed up figure

Ive already stated how you are on the wrong side but you're blinkers are on again

marty2086 wrote:

Instead you go for a fluffed up figure

Ive already stated how you are on the wrong side but you're blinkers are on again

No, I gave you the collated figure that PWC used. And that figure just covered three years.

You haven't stated how I'm on the wrong side at all. You asked for the figures, I've provided them. What do you want - a list of outstanding Director's loans from all four teams?!?! That list would just make you look even more stupid.

PhilBB wrote:Which teams are funded by bank loans, Martyn?

You know this, its on Companies House

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Which teams are funded by bank loans, Martyn?

You know this, its on Companies House

I can't find it, so please tell me. Which of the four is funded by bank loans, Martyn?

Don't tell him, Martyn!

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Instead you go for a fluffed up figure

Ive already stated how you are on the wrong side but you're blinkers are on again

No, I gave you the collated figure that PWC used. And that figure just covered three years.

You haven't stated how I'm on the wrong side at all. You asked for the figures, I've provided them. What do you want - a list of outstanding Director's loans from all four teams?!?! That list would just make you look even more stupid.

I have but if you want to ignore it work away

The figures don't answer my question as they include extras so don't see how you answered what I asked

I don't actually need it now had a quick look myself

But we get it, Roger and the Irish are to blame despite the owners making a balls of their job and refusing to keep the businesses afloat without the WRU giving them money

We'll have a whip round and get you a new dummy

In the meantime Ill stop distracting you from writing your anonymous blogs

Let him...stew.........

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Which teams are funded by bank loans, Martyn?

You know this, its on Companies House

I can't find it, so please tell me. Which of the four is funded by bank loans, Martyn?

How can you not find it?

You were the one who told me it was there?

Almost like you are being silly now Phil

marty2086 wrote:

I have but if you want to ignore it work away

The figures don't answer my question as they include extras so don't see how you answered what I asked

I don't actually need it now had a quick look myself

But we get it, Roger and the Irish are to blame despite the owners making a balls of their job and refusing to keep the businesses afloat without the WRU giving them money

We'll have a whip round and get you a new dummy

In the meantime Ill stop distracting you from writing your anonymous blogs

I don't have an anonymous blog, Martyn.

Who do you mean by 'they include extras'? That makes no sense, just as you repeating 'I have told you' makes no sense, either.

What your ignorant analysis fails to spot is that the benefactors kept their businesses afloat despite Lewis paying a pittance relative to the fees paid by other Unions. Today's release of the WRU Annual Report just underlines this.

Maybe you'd like to try again, this time actually answering the two questions posted to you:

1. What do you mean by 'they include extras'?
2. How am I 'on the wrong side'?

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Which teams are funded by bank loans, Martyn?

You know this, its on Companies House

I can't find it, so please tell me. Which of the four is funded by bank loans, Martyn?

How can you not find it?

You were the one who told me it was there?

Almost like you are being silly now Phil

Oh dear. You wrote:

"rom reading some of the accounts its seems the benefactors funded the regions through bank loans and restricting not by investing their own money". Which accounts gave you that impression, Martyn?

But phill you keep telling us private investment is the best way. So surely the region's shouldnt need any WRU money, especially Cardiff as you informed me they have many millionaires backing them.
And now Cardiff are competing again is it devalued as it's come from WRU investment? Just like you claimed Connaughts victory last year wasn't there own?

carpet baboon wrote:But phill you keep telling us private investment is the best way. So surely the region's shouldnt need any WRU money, especially Cardiff as you informed me they have many millionaires backing them.
And now Cardiff are competing again is it devalued as it's come from WRU investment? Just like you claimed Connaughts victory last year wasn't there own?

Oh dear, dear, dear. I can see why this place is so quiet if I don't post, if that's the level of adult analysis.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I have but if you want to ignore it work away

The figures don't answer my question as they include extras so don't see how you answered what I asked

I don't actually need it now had a quick look myself

But we get it, Roger and the Irish are to blame despite the owners making a balls of their job and refusing to keep the businesses afloat without the WRU giving them money

We'll have a whip round and get you a new dummy

In the meantime Ill stop distracting you from writing your anonymous blogs

I don't have an anonymous blog, Martyn.

Who do you mean by 'they include extras'? That makes no sense, just as you repeating 'I have told you' makes no sense, either.

What your ignorant analysis fails to spot is that the benefactors kept their businesses afloat despite Lewis paying a pittance relative to the fees paid by other Unions. Today's release of the WRU Annual Report just underlines this.

Maybe you'd like to try again, this time actually answering the two questions posted to you:

1. What do you mean by 'they include extras'?
2. How am I 'on the wrong side'?

Sorry are you the only one allowed to use the I told you line? Did you have it copyrighted?

So Lewis paid the amount agreed with the Regions and hes at fault for getting a good deal for the WRU

What a bar stool! Imagine being a good negotiator instead of a completely rubbish one like the Regions

marty2086 wrote:

Sorry are you the only one allowed to use the I told you line? Did you have it copyrighted?

So Lewis paid the amount agreed with the Regions and hes at fault for getting a good deal for the WRU

What a bar stool! Imagine being a good negotiator instead of a completely rubbish one like the Regions

Lewis didn't get a good deal for the WRU. That's the point. He almost killed his supply chain and the middle to long term problems that caused are yet to hit, hence Phillips desperately trying to undo Lewis' work.

Now, don't bottle the questions, Martyn:

1. What do you mean by 'they include extras'?
2. How am I 'on the wrong side'?

Be brave and answer, there's a good chap.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:But phill you keep telling us private investment is the best way. So surely the region's shouldnt need any WRU money, especially Cardiff as you informed me they have many millionaires backing them.
And now Cardiff are competing again is it devalued as it's come from WRU investment? Just like you claimed Connaughts victory last year wasn't there own?

Oh dear, dear, dear. I can see why this place is so quiet if I don't post, if that's the level of adult analysis.

Phill all things you said.
All things you belive.
All still here if you care to look.

But you won't. And I find that funny

And shall I just accept you won't answer my questions?

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:But phill you keep telling us private investment is the best way. So surely the region's shouldnt need any WRU money, especially Cardiff as you informed me they have many millionaires backing them.
And now Cardiff are competing again is it devalued as it's come from WRU investment? Just like you claimed Connaughts victory last year wasn't there own?

Oh dear, dear, dear. I can see why this place is so quiet if I don't post, if that's the level of adult analysis.

Phill all things you said.
All things you belive.
All still here if you care to look.

But you won't. And I find that funny

If you can't even enter a discussion with the basics that Unions pay their supply chain and you can't even spell Connacht, what's the point of your presence? I know that you find it funny but that giggle is drowned out by the guffaws at your contributions.

Come on, if you want to try to play Billy Big Balls then at least try to bring something to the table.

carpet baboon wrote:And shall I just accept you won't answer my questions?

The questions are moronic so I'm going on the assumption that they aren't genuine. I'm hoping that you'll confirm that.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Sorry are you the only one allowed to use the I told you line? Did you have it copyrighted?

So Lewis paid the amount agreed with the Regions and hes at fault for getting a good deal for the WRU

What a bar stool! Imagine being a good negotiator instead of a completely rubbish one like the Regions

Lewis didn't get a good deal for the WRU. That's the point. He almost killed his supply chain and the middle to long term problems that caused are yet to hit, hence Phillips desperately trying to undo Lewis' work.

Now, don't bottle the questions, Martyn:

1. What do you mean by 'they include extras'?
2. How am I 'on the wrong side'?

Be brave and answer, there's a good chap.

Now I know how Jack Nicholson felt in a Few Good Men

Asked and answered counsellor!

As for almost killing the supply chain, the accounts yet again contradict you

For someone who knows them inside out you seem to not know a thing about them

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:And shall I just accept you won't answer my questions?

The questions are moronic so I'm going on the assumption that they aren't genuine. I'm hoping that you'll confirm that.

Now you know how we feel

I see you still don't answer and go for the silly put downs.
Sounds like a man with no answer to me

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Sorry are you the only one allowed to use the I told you line? Did you have it copyrighted?

So Lewis paid the amount agreed with the Regions and hes at fault for getting a good deal for the WRU

What a bar stool! Imagine being a good negotiator instead of a completely rubbish one like the Regions

Lewis didn't get a good deal for the WRU. That's the point. He almost killed his supply chain and the middle to long term problems that caused are yet to hit, hence Phillips desperately trying to undo Lewis' work.

Now, don't bottle the questions, Martyn:

1. What do you mean by 'they include extras'?
2. How am I 'on the wrong side'?

Be brave and answer, there's a good chap.

Now I know how Jack Nicholson felt in a Few Good Men

Asked and answered counsellor!

As for almost killing the supply chain, the accounts yet again contradict you

For someone who knows them inside out you seem to not know a thing about them

You haven't answered at all, especially question 2. How do the accounts prove that Lewis didn't almost kill the supply chain? That's a non-sensical comment.

I love it when you try to write in riddles. You try to appear clever as you know that you cannot provide the basic answers to the questions asked, but you can't bring yourself to back down so you dig deeper holes with each post. It's hilarious.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Which teams are funded by bank loans, Martyn?

You know this, its on Companies House

I can't find it, so please tell me. Which of the four is funded by bank loans, Martyn?

How can you not find it?

You were the one who told me it was there?

Almost like you are being silly now Phil

Oh dear. You wrote:

"rom reading some of the accounts its seems the benefactors funded the regions through bank loans and restricting not by investing their own money". Which accounts gave you that impression, Martyn?

No answer, Martyn? Well, well. How easy to call you out.

carpet baboon wrote:But phill you keep telling us private investment is the best way. So surely the region's shouldnt need any WRU money, especially Cardiff as you informed me they have many millionaires backing them.
And now Cardiff are competing again is it devalued as it's come from WRU investment? Just like you claimed Connaughts victory last year wasn't there own?

Sigh. Here we go, for the stupid amongst you all:

1. Private investment is the best way. Ask the biggest Unions in the world. In fact, think of one who doesn't allow private ownership or is considering selling its teams. And then think of another....
2. Clubs receive payments from the Unions for being their supply chain.
3. The spend at Cardiff has increased this year. The 'additional' WRU payment is still below the market rate paid elsewhere in the game.
4. Connacht's victory came sole from the IRFU.

I have answered Im not answering again, you don't like the answer that's your problem

Let me give you some advice, if you don't like the Pro12 then stop watching but stop trying to suck the life out of it for the rest of us.

We are all aware of your grievances and your dastardly plan to destroy it all for the rest of us so now its clear why don't you go find a hobby

Munchkin wrote:

BoudjellalStroppyHissyFitThreatensToSpitHisDummyOut.

This isn't 'Under the counter'. This is audited payments, ffs. You couldn't get more over the bloody counter than audited payments.

Bloody hell.

marty2086 wrote:

I have answered Im not answering again, you don't like the answer that's your problem

Let me give you some advice, if you don't like the Pro12 then stop watching but stop trying to suck the life out of it for the rest of us.

We are all aware of your grievances and your dastardly plan to destroy it all for the rest of us so now its clear why don't you go find a hobby

You haven't answered any of the three questions. You know you haven't, it's clearly to all that you haven't and its clear that you haven't because you cannot. You've been called out. You've been found out.

So easy to do.

Nice attempt to diver the thread from your lies, too.

Phil please pick up your dummy!

Hehe. Writes lie, gets called on it, writes about dummies.

Zero self awareness.

Martyn, if you're going to write lies, write them at somebody less able to prove you to be a liar. For me, it was all too easy.

Go stand infront of any of the players who won the pro12 last year and tell them it wasn't there effort
Tell them all the trainning and injuries they got winning were not worth it and the whole victory is devalued.

You wouldn't would you Phil. As your a coward who hides on the internet throwing out insults at people all because your team hasnt been good enough.

But my word you amuse the rest of us with your feet stamping "it's no fair, it's not fair"

Comedy gold phill

carpet baboon wrote:Go stand infront of any of the players who won the pro12 last year and tell them it wasn't there effort
Tell them all the trainning and injuries they got winning were not worth it and the whole victory is devalued.

You wouldn't would you Phil. As your a coward who hides on the internet throwing out insults at people all because your team hasnt been good enough.

But my word you amuse the rest of us with your feet stamping "it's no fair, it's not fair"

Comedy gold phill

Yes, I'm the coward. I'm the coward, writes 'Carpet Baboon'. Where's that irony button?

For the players at Connacht and the coaches and the fans, good on them. They did well. They managed it by the IRFU investment, of course, but they did well. See? Grown ups can differentiate things. And have some self awareness. You're struggling at both, Mr 'coward who hides on the internet throwing out insults' at me.

PhilBB wrote:

For the players at Connacht and the coaches and the fans, good on them. They did well. They managed it by the IRFU investment, of course, but they did well. See?

Owners investing. Correct. Good model.

Now the Regions are allegedly beginning to catch up now that WRU (non-owner) copies some of the ideas - like dual-salaries. Regions now benefit from the pockets of 'owners' and a rich National benefactor.
I think we're the one's who should be starting to complain about the lack of fairness...

PhilBB wrote:I can see why this place is so quiet if I don't post, if that's the level of adult analysis.

Feel free to stop posting.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

For the players at Connacht and the coaches and the fans, good on them. They did well. They managed it by the IRFU investment, of course, but they did well. See?

Owners investing.  Correct.  Good model.

Now the Regions are allegedly beginning to catch up now that WRU (non-owner) copies some of the ideas - like dual-salaries.  Regions now benefit from the pockets of 'owners' and a rich National benefactor.  
I think we're the one's who should be starting to complain about the lack of fairness...

Should we be starting a litany of threads about this issue?

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Go stand infront of any of the players who won the pro12 last year and tell them it wasn't there effort
Tell them all the trainning and injuries they got winning were not worth it and the whole victory is devalued.

You wouldn't would you Phil. As your a coward who hides on the internet throwing out insults at people all because your team hasnt been good enough.

But my word you amuse the rest of us with your feet stamping "it's no fair, it's not fair"

Comedy gold phill

Yes, I'm the coward. I'm the coward, writes 'Carpet Baboon'. Where's that irony button?

For the players at Connacht and the coaches and the fans, good on them. They did well. They managed it by the IRFU investment, of course, but they did well. See? Grown ups can differentiate things. And have some self awareness. You're struggling at both, Mr 'coward who hides on the internet throwing out insults' at me.

I havnt Insulted you. I have pointed out that if we met in real life you wouldn't try and talk down to me all call me "billy big balls" that's your cowardice. Everything I have said I would repeats it to you in person quite happily.
I doubt you would.

And you do amuse all of us with your heroic levels of false bravado and I know more than you routine

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

BoudjellalStroppyHissyFitThreatensToSpitHisDummyOut.

This isn't 'Under the counter'. This is audited payments, ffs. You couldn't get more over the bloody counter than audited payments.

Bloody hell.

Boy, you are dim

carpet baboon wrote:I have pointed out that if we met in real life you wouldn't try and talk down to me all call me "billy big balls"

How do you know that?

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I have pointed out that if we met in real life you wouldn't try and talk down to me all call me "billy big balls"

How do you know that?

Maybe I just work on the assumption that most people are decent folk in real life rather than the braver than brave persona they use in the internet.
Your right though I could be wrong in your case

carpet baboon wrote:

Maybe I just work on the assumption that most people are decent folk in real life rather than the braver than brave persona they use in the internet.
Your right though I could be wrong in your case

If you spoke to me as you have written to me, you'd get exactly the same response.

But I'm working on the basis that you'd lack the balls to be as snide to me, if we met, than you are on here.

I could be wrong, though, judging by your posts hinting at you having little self awareness.

I see your trying to goad me I to some sort o angryf response phill, unfortunately for you it won't work.
Continue with you name calling it's fine. Dosent bother me. It just shows you up for the Internet hard man you are.
Enjoy your angry little world

PhilBB wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Genuine question....

Considering Wales' 6N success over the last few years, and the regions (especially Ospreys) having those players at their disposal, how come it would take millions to improve the resources and performances of the teams in Wales?

The Ospreys haven't had the bulk of those players since c.2010.

It is quite clear that the wage bills of their opponents in the PrO'12 are greater than being paid by PRW teams. Therein lies the answer to your question.

For example, Piatau will likely earn more than the combined non-Welsh qualified players at the Ospreys.

That's something I can't quite understand.  The Welsh get more tv money for the pro12 (and keep that extra money).  The regions have less other sports to compete against (soccer, ?) than the provinces have to compete with in Ireland (gaelic football, hurling, soccer, then rugby).  Their stadia can hold as many spectators as any provincial ground.  The WRU host an additional autumn international which increases their coffers, and a sellout at MS has a higher capacity than a sellout at Lansdowne Road.  And there are benefactors behind some clubs who put money into the sides as part of their support of the region.

There should be more cash in welsh rugby, where is it going if not into player development and wages? It's hard to understand.

The Provinces / IRFU (however you want to bundle/group them) spend money to try and keep players.  But they don't spend to a sustained deficit each year. Sure timing of certain repayments may move from time to time but not enough to explain the gap to the Regions?