China Open / Shanghai Masters

Is anyone watching any Tennis?

Anyway this is turning into a half decent tournament although the usual suspects are generally providing the entertainment

We're at the QF stage, where both Edmund and Zverev have just been beaten - but showed enough to remind us that they could be genuine slam contenders in a few years

Be interesting to see how Rafa competes as he'll have to beat Dimi, probably Raonic and probably Murray to win the event - so if he does, then as some of us suspect there may be a good 2017 for him

Today (Friday) the Rafa / Dimi clash looks to be worth watching, it won't start before 1430hrs our time

Update!!!

We've now moved on to the penultimate Masters of the year, with both Novak and Andy actually at the same event!!

Very good win for Ferrer over Zverev, setting up a Murray Ferrer SF.

Nadal looks to be playing well so he should beat Dimi fairly easily. I think he will make the final from that half.

I've caught the odd bit. Fine win for Edmund against Battista-Agut yesterday, and that should take him into the top 50 I believe. Still have concerns about his fitness (stamina) as he rather seemed to run out of gas today after the first set (possibly still tired after yesterday's long match). I think he'll get there, but that for me is what he really needs to work on to take his game to the next level.

Currently watching Jo Konta, who after losing the first four games of her QF then won the next ten to lead 6-4 4-0. If she sees this one through I think she breaks into the top 10, as well as keeping her hopes of qualifying for the WTFs.

I think Edmund, like everyone outside the to few, is as good as anyone fitness wise, until of course they come up against the elite

There's a reason why Roger's only just having his first serious injury, why the likes of Novak don't get injured much and why Murray and Nadal get back to their former selves remarkably quickly after injuries - they manage their matches in such a way, when more energy is needed they have it.

6-4 6-0 Konta beats Zhang.  Into the semi-final where she will meet Madison Keys for a place in the final.

Edmund is definitely not "as good as anybody" outside the top few fitness-wise. I'd say he is pretty low down the top 100 in that attribute. It's still quite a big issue for him, particularly in slams.

Good win for Jo. Fairly crucial next match for her chances of making the YE Champs. A win and she's into the top 8 (10 points ahead of Cibulkova).

Born Slippy wrote:Edmund is definitely not "as good as anybody" outside the top few fitness-wise. I'd say he is pretty low down the top 100 in that attribute. It's still quite a big issue for him, particularly in slams

I don't think he's particularly worse than anyone else, given his age - otherwise why is he getting through rounds? He can't have such a magical forehand that he's only at 50 because of fitness issues. He went toe to toe with Murray for a good while and only mentally faded, due to the realisation that Murray wasn't going away.

There's quite a few who could have the finger pointed at them and I don't see Edmund been any worse, but of course he needs to get better, as you'd expect for a 21 year old

I'll rephrase to "no worse than most"

Well yes, for his age I'm not that concerned, lest we forget Murray used to have plenty of stamina issues himself. But I agree with BS that fitness wise I'd have Edmund on the lower end of the top 100, in BO5 matches he quite often seems to run out of steam. Yes he had a good run at the US, but I think it was only the Isner match which went beyond 3 sets, and Isner isn't the fittest either, nor do his matches tend to be that physically taxing.

I don't think it's a huge issue, and it's something I expect to improve, especially given his age. I just think it's an area he needs to work on to achieve his full potential.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Well yes, for his age I'm not that concerned, lest we forget Murray used to have plenty of stamina issues himself. But I agree with BS that fitness wise I'd have Edmund on the lower end of the top 100, in BO5 matches he quite often seems to run out of steam. Yes he had a good run at the US, but I think it was only the Isner match which went beyond 3 sets, and Isner isn't the fittest either, nor do his matches tend to be that physically taxing.

I don't think it's a huge issue, and it's something I expect to improve, especially given his age. I just think it's an area he needs to work on to achieve his full potential.

You've kind of illustrated my frustration. At every event Edmund is improving his fitness, yet we seem to be judging him on events prior to three months ago.

So Isner's at the lower end of the fitness regime and I assume Gasquet is as well? And as there are loads with similar fitness issues, I'm not certain how Edmund can be ranked as definitely one of the poorest. Poor for inheriting the mantle of his senior countryman, yes. But already he's on course to have the best career of a Brit, apart from Greg, Tim and Andy

If Edmund continues to work on his fitness, then he has a great chance to win events and that's really my point

I don't disagree that it needs improving

Edmund has made dramatic progress over the past two years. We just need him to continue to make such progress without injuries. Getting consistently to third rounds of 500 and Master's tournaments and third and fourth rounds of Grand Slams is a major feat in itself. He is not there yet, but is building towards that.

You've got to wonder whether Rafa will ever win another Masters, never mind a slam

It appears that, more often than not, whenever he comes up against an opponent playing Top 10 tennis, he loses

Born Slippy wrote:Very good win for Ferrer over Zverev, setting up a Murray Ferrer SF.

Nadal looks to be playing well so he should beat Dimi fairly easily. I think he will make the final from that half.

One of my least accurate predictions that. Did Dimi play really well?

Not watching but following the results, of which there were a couple of decent ones for Edmund.

I think the evidence is pretty conclusive at this point that a healthy nadal's level is exactly what we've been seeing past couple of years-   Bottom top 10ish player off of clay and still competative on clay.  The bits of clay success will keep his ranking in the 5-10,range imo.   He's probably going to end up 7-8 year end ranking and that's a pretty accurate spot I'd say.

Konta beats Keys in three sets to make the final. Means she will be ranked in the top 10 for the first time. Also means that she's in the top 8 in the race (albeit only with a 10 point lead!). Probably Radwanska in the final.

Hard to argue with that TRuffin, you just feel he's lost that physical edge, and I also wonder if mentally the amount of time he's been at the top and the amount of injuries he's had to fight back from have taken their toll. He may not be willing to push himself as hard anymore, and if you drop off even a tiny bit like that it can result in quite a big difference. Don't blame him, and he's had a wonderful career, but it does feel like his days of competing for the big prizes (off clay) could be over.

Great win for Konta today, caught the final set where there was some excellent tennis being played by both, though Konta definitely looked the better player. Great for her to get into the top 10, and here's hoping she can scrape that top 8 spot for the WTF. It's been an excellent season for her: after last year's breakthrough there must have been some concern over backing it up, but she's done so, and then some.

A routine win for Murray over Ferrer 6-2 6-3 and he marches into the Beijing final without dropping a set. Some good powerful hitting from Murray today, but as always with Ferrer you feel he just doesn't have the power to bother the big boys, and that serve is too much of a weakness.

Born Slippy wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:Very good win for Ferrer over Zverev, setting up a Murray Ferrer SF.

Nadal looks to be playing well so he should beat Dimi fairly easily. I think he will make the final from that half.

One of my least accurate predictions that. Did Dimi play really well?

Not particularly. As usual he was over egging the backhand, in that 'Mum  look how lovely my backhand is) way of playing he seems to think will get him a slam

There were some good bits, but Rafa was worryingly ordinary. He's giving the types of performance that Berdych does, ie great until late the last three rounds

So we have a British player in both the men's & women's Finals of the same, top level, tour event.

When did that last happen, I wonder .......

Mad for Chelsea wrote:A routine win for Murray over Ferrer 6-2 6-3 and he marches into the Beijing final without dropping a set. Some good powerful hitting from Murray today, but as always with Ferrer you feel he just doesn't have the power to bother the big boys, and that serve is too much of a weakness.

True enough.

But what a great career he fashioned for himself. His fitness, dedication, hard work (+ not inconsiderable ability) have kept him in the upper echelons of the sport for so many years.
And never any bad boy/prima donna behaviour

30% first serves in for Murray in that set. Fortunately, his second serve  has been very strong. 6-4 set.

Well who would have thought there would even be a remote possibility that the number one men's ranking could be up for grabs? Ok, there's still some way to go for Andy M, but with GB out of the DC he could claw back some big points at the 02 this year.
Realistically, Murray's best chance of taking over at the top could come in the first half of next year. After all, Djoko has max points to defend from the first two GS plus IW and Miami.

SFP

To back up your comment above regarding the #1 position, looking at the points to drop between now and the early US hardcourt masters, Andy certainly has a chance of passing Djokovic.

Currently the points are Djoko on 13540 and Andy on 9845.
Dropping points between now and the end of the year (only counting MS 1000 and above):
Novak - 1000 (Sha) + 1000 (Par) + 1300 (WTF) = 10240 current race points
Andy - 360 (Sha) + 600 (Par) + 200 (WTF) = 8685 current race points

So year end #1 is unlikely to be in play unless Novak misses an MS 1000 and Andy wins it.

More interesting early next year, with the following points dropping:
Novak - 2000 (AO) + 1000 (IW) + 1000 (Mia) = 6240 points remaining
Andy - 1200 (AO) + 45 (IW) + 45 (Mia) = 7395 points remaining

So Andy is actually ahead in points gained from April to October 2016. Novak hasn't much he can add from now to Miami - 200 from the WTF and then it's 'other countables'. Andy obviously has a lot more scope for gain, especially IW and Miami.

D-Half. Thanks for the stats. Amazing how quickly things can turn round.

It looks like the Australian Open is going to be key for Murray to getting to no 1.

Henman Bill wrote:It looks like the Australian Open is going to be key for Murray to getting to no 1.

Another factor will be if Novak can re-discover that winning streak and desire for titles which seem to have cooled and impacted on his form lately. If Novak can't do that then Murray may only need to outdo his start to this year by small margins to get No 1 if Novak drops enough points.

The unfortunate issue for Murray is the joke that winning the 5th biggest title this year has got him zero ranking points. If the Olympics was given sensible points (i.e. 1,500) then the number 1 race would be very much on.

As it is, I think it's quite a lot of unjustified hype. Murray is notoriously running on empty usually by this stage of the season and he looked lethargic against Grigor at the weekend. I'd expect Novak to outscore him by a good 2,000 points between now and year end. Realistically, unless Andy starts beating Novak a good proportion of the time, he won't get to number 1.

As for the tennis, good to see Goffin knock out DP. A fine win for him. Hopefully, he can build on it and close on the top 10.

Born Slippy wrote:The unfortunate issue for Murray is the joke that winning the 5th biggest title this year has got him zero ranking points. If the Olympics was given sensible points (i.e. 1,500) then the number 1 race would be very much on.

As it is, I think it's quite a lot of unjustified hype. Murray is notoriously running on empty usually by this stage of the season and he looked lethargic against Grigor at the weekend. I'd expect Novak to outscore him by a good 2,000 points between now and year end. Realistically, unless Andy starts beating Novak a good proportion of the time, he won't get to number 1.

As for the tennis, good to see Goffin knock out DP. A fine win for him. Hopefully, he can build on it and close on the top 10.

Based on past history I'd not disagree particularly, although I'm pretty sure Andy has won Shanghai in the past. However the Djokovic that is ending this year has a lot of question marks over form and fitness, so we need to wait and see how he goes here and Paris.

Don't think Andy has a real chance of getting the #1 by year end, but it will be in play for the first part of next season.

I am not too bothered about the Olympics not having any ranking points.  It is separate from the ATP tour and nationalistic in conception.  If Andy Murray is to get to number one he should do it properly by outperforming everyone, including Djokovic, in the slam tournaments as well as across the year.  His best chance will be next year and the year after.  Djokovic with two grand slam titles, completion of the career slam, and two grand slam runner up positions is clearly this years number one player.  Next year is another year.  Let's see if Andy Murray can convert his five runner up positions at the Australian Open to a championship victory.

Ps good to see Kyle Edmund's showing some consistency of form that indicates he will remain a top 50 player and may become a regular top 30 or better player. With Andy Murray at 29 those interested in British tennis need to be seeing who is going to "replace" him in the years to come. Good to see Konta getting into the top 10, but I think at the moment that is an artificial high for her - she needs to begin to win some WTA tournaments. I see her as a top twenty player rather than a top ten player at the moment. She has a lot of ranking points to defend at the Australian Open - she got to last years semi-final.

Oh I'm not saying Murray should be number 1 as it stands. However, the gap should be considerably less given that in the 5th biggest tournament of the year Novak bombed out in R1 and Murray won the title. 

If anything, Murray probably lost ranking points as a result - he wasn't 100% in Cincy and looked low on gas at the US. I disagree with your position that there should be no ranking points at the Olympics. It's a standard singles tournament which counts on a list of player's official titles and in their win loss records. The fact the ATP/ITF had a falling out isn't in my view a reason to penalise the players. 

As for Konta, I would say she is playing at a lower top 10 level, if not slightly higher. Only Williams, Kerber, Radwanska, Halep and possibly Kvitova would go into a match against her as favourite. She's won a Premier level title this year and made a final in one of the four Premier Mandatories.

Looks like Kyrgios has thrown a match.  With issues regarding on-line betting abuse etc maybe someone from the ITF could investigate it.  
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/37630038

Didn't see the Kyrgios match but apparently he was a disgrace.

Rafa lost to Troicki in straight sets. Another disappointing result for him.

Dimitrov also lost to Pospisil.

Edmund was okay against Stan.

Nore Staat wrote:Looks like Kyrgios has thrown a match.  With issues regarding on-line betting abuse etc maybe someone from the ITF could investigate it.  
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/37630038

In fairness Kyrgios stated he was knackered after last weeks event, which he won

Whilst, I think he's been a bit silly, I'm not certain this can be seen as having "thrown a match". Unless we think he is stupid enough to almost announce it advance

People get too excited about Kyrgios. His behaviour is no worse than Nastase or Connors at their ugly pomp. I'd like him to be not as daft, but I do not want 20 Raonic type characters making up the top 20 in five years or so

I'm with Murray on this - people should give him a break

I quite like Kyrgios but there is no excuse for this. Unless he has some sort of crisis behind the scenes, I personally think he should be heavily fined and banned from something he actually cares about - maybe his Pokemon Go account?

I don't think he can be banned or whatever for it, but he has some sort of duty to at least try.

He doesn't like this tournament anyway does he?

You have to laugh. Rafa's defeat to and ultimate 'journeyman' player, hasn't even been mentioned

A youngster having a predictable meltdown after a previous high, dominates the boards

Murray through and continues to have one of his most impressive looking autumns

Now it's gets interesting as he could play the true form horses of the summer, Pouille, Monfils and Stan

Guest82 wrote:I don't think he can be banned or whatever for it, but he has some sort of duty to at least try.

He doesn't like this tournament anyway does he?

He can definitely be fined. My suggestion of banning him from Pokemon was obviously tongue in cheek.

Banbro - have you seen his behaviour?

Top half of the draw has only Djokovic (1) and Bautista Agut (15) left as seeded players. Would think that unless Novak has injury issues he should make the final.

Banbrotam. Yes, a "shock" Rafa defeat is - sadly - no longer a shock. Back in January I predicted Nadal to be number two by the end of 2016. He's gonna finish a long way off that, now.
Can he turn things round and find a winning game again? Probably only under a new coach. And he'll never ditch uncle Toni.

This time of year hasn't historically been the best for Rafa, so no surprise as he's declined his results here aren't good.

On clay he is probably 3rd in the world. On hard he is probably 20-30. On grass he's probably 100.

His clay results should keep his ranking top 10.

Born Slippy wrote:

Guest82 wrote:I don't think he can be banned or whatever for it, but he has some sort of duty to at least try.

He doesn't like this tournament anyway does he?

He can definitely be fined. My suggestion of banning him from Pokemon was obviously tongue in cheek.

Banbro - have you seen his behaviour?

Yes. And as I stated it was wrong.

It's the sinister 'throwing' of a match that I find OTT - it's a very serious accusation

sirfredperry wrote:Banbrotam. Yes, a "shock" Rafa defeat is - sadly - no longer a shock. Back in January I predicted Nadal to be number two by the end of 2016. He's gonna finish a long way off that, now.
  Can he turn things round and find a winning game again? Probably only under a new coach. And he'll never ditch uncle Toni.

I'm not convinced that a new coach will help. Beating Rafa is now seen as a sign that you're a contender to be a top ten player, before it was a sign that you might win the event

Hello

Murray is putting in another powerful performance in Shanghai. He leads Pouille 6-1 3-2.

Murray wins 6-1 6-3 with a spectacular winner down the line.

Managed to watch the match for a change. Strong performance from Murray, extremely solid from the back of the court (felt like Pouille had to hit a clean winner to win the point), and stepped up powerfully whenever he had the opportunity. Pouille will get a feel for the size of the gap between his level and that of the very top players.

I thought Pouille would make things very difficult for Murray today. Judging from the scoreline, he didn't.
Kyrgios has been fined around £13,000 for his antics. Just when you think he's stopped being a complete arse, he misbehaves again.

Good for Andy to get through quickly. He has a tough draw here - Monfils, Stan and Novak is as tough as it can get from QF onwards and he needs to conserve energy.

Wawrinka taken out in straight sets by Gilles Simon and Goffin comes from a set down to beat Gael Monfils.