Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[navyblueshorts]

First topic message reminder :

Actually Davie, they didn't fit yours (apologies; 'idiocy' is a bit strong). Your earlier comments were all about how he'd actually done something terrible/illegal i.e. told them how to get around 3rd party ownership (he didn't) with the possible implication that he'd been knowingly involved in it (no evidence of this), took £400k for dodgy seminars (he didn't and he said he'd have to clear it with the FA) etc. You wanted him to be a crook from the off.
You also claimed Ben and I said he was 'innocent' - we said no such thing.

You never took S_R's approach re. his position being untenable because he was England manager, the one thing he probably falls foul of. His comments re. Hodgson/Nevile were unfortunate, but this was a private conversation and, actually, big deal. Seriously, the next poor schmuck who takes this on should treat the media as they deserve.

There may well be more to this - we'll see. Until then, the only thing he's 'guilty' of is putting himself in a stupid position cf. the FA's comments re. FIFA etc and forcing the FA to ask him to fall on his sword. S_R's right with this; the FA had little choice really.

[beninho]

Gascoine was a better player than Le Tissier, though they played in different positions. Gazza was a midfielder and Le Tiss was a forward. Just they had completely different personality traits which had an impact on their overall careers.

Anyway, I am in the Zidane camp as the best player I have seen, he made it look so easy, those early days at Madrid were things of beauty, I would also include Kaka, again a period when he was at Milan, he just seemed so elegant and easy on the ball he destroyed was part of the team that destroyed Fergies United and then Liverpool in 2007.

Messi and Ronaldo both different class of players, but I dont think they make it look as effortless and easy as Zidane and Kaka.

[McLaren]

Kwini

Obviously there is nothing wrong with him staying at Southampton in a general sense, but if I were to use more the term successful instead of better would you not agree that most players would prefer to have a go at winning trophies.

The easy response will be for you to say, well he wasn't "most players" but I think you know the gist of the point I am making, and that others have made about Le Tissier in the past.

[super_realist]

I agree, Gascoigne probably was better as an all round player, but he wasn't a better goal scorer or striker of the ball than Le Tissier, which is the point I'm making.

Le Tissier was an Attacking Midfielder, not a forward.

[beninho]

Gazza wasnt a goalscorer it was never his position, Le Tiss (who clearly was a forward) was a number 10 or second striker, he was not a centre midfielder, they both played in the old style 442 days, Gazza one of the 4 in the middle of the pitch mainly with Le Tiss one of the 2 forwards.

Regarding Gazzas striking the ball ability I give you this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVMaIUSeRxA

His career could of been so much, if he did not have those demons.

[McLaren]

Ben

Good call on Kaka.

but just decided to look up the highlights of that tie and actually the best bit of skill is Scholes little scoop/flick pass in the second leg to set up Rooney's first.

It is also crazy how quick and relentless that Utd team were in attack. There were players making runs all over the shop when going forward. What a change to dull style of play they have now adopted. I am not sure the 2006 to say 2011'ish team get the credit they deserve given they might have been the best English team relative to the best in Europe since Liverpool's hey day.

[super_realist]

Gazza wasnt a goalscorer it was never his position, Le Tiss (who clearly was a forward) was a number 10 or second striker, he was not a centre midfielder, they both played in the old style 442 days, Gazza one of the 4 in the middle of the pitch mainly with Le Tiss one of the 2 forwards.

Regarding Gazzas striking the ball ability I give you this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVMaIUSeRxA

His career could of been so much, if he did not have those demons.

I never claimed Gascoigne was a goalscorer. My whole point about Le Tissier was that he was a great striker of the ball, so why even bring up Gascoigne as a comparison. I was talking about outstanding goalscorers.

Le Tissier was always a number 7 (look at the videos). Pretty much everything you can find about Le Tissier states he was an Attacking Midfielder.

[kwinigolfer]

Mac,
If you took money out of the equation, any footballer worth his salt would rather be playing every week rather than winning more trophies but from the bowels of a Prem bench.
In a previous generation, Mick Channon spent most of his career with Saints, sure he had plenty of chances to move for more lucrative climes.
American politicians rabbit on about American "exceptionalism", trying to convince everyone the US is somehow better. Unfortunately you seem to be an advocate of Prem exceptionalism. Hopefully there'll always be players who can see beyond the top six du jour.

[beninho]

YOU made a comparison that Le Tiss was a better goal scorer than Gazza
"Gascoigne wasn't a goal scorer in anything like the same sort of class as Le Tissier. Not even close".

My point was that they were totally different types of players. Le Tiss was a great Striker of the ball, but so was Gazza as shown with his free kick from the 91 cup semi. On top of that i will add this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Iu5YSqN0Ok

I have only watched the first few minutes, but some of those strikes were up there with Le Tiss, and look at the pitches he played on!

Le Tiss did wear number 7 but that was just his squad number, he wasnt a striker he was a forward, he could be classed as an attacking midfielder but he wasnt known for tracking back and defending, and you would not have played in him a 2 as centre midfield. The numbers worn means nothing since squad numbers came in.

[beninho]

Ben

Good call on Kaka.

but just decided to look up the highlights of that tie and actually the best bit of skill is Scholes little scoop/flick pass in the second leg to set up Rooney's first.

It is also crazy how quick and relentless that Utd team were in attack.  There were players making runs all over the shop when going forward.  What a change to dull style of play they have now adopted.  I am not sure the 2006 to say 2011'ish team get the credit they deserve given they might have been the best English team relative to the best in Europe since Liverpool's hey day.

I think the problem for them is that they were so far behind Barcelona and upstaged twice in the final, it was like men against boys.

[super_realist]

No, I didn't. I said Le Tissier was the scorer of the finest goals in the last 30 years and JAS said "I must have missed Gascoigne". I mentioned he wasn't part of a viable comparison.

My point about Le Tissier was that he was a consistent scorer of awesome goals, most other players were not.

As for Le Tiss being a Forward, I only found a few references to him being such, the rest all say he was an Attacking Midfielder, so it doesn't seem as if his playing position was clear cut. He didn't play upfront generally, and he didn't play in midfield, he was in between the two.

Even Matt Le Tissier's official website lists him as an Attacking Midfielder

[pedro]

What made Zidane exceptional is that he stood out in an era (late 90s) where players' physical fitness and technical abilities were already at a very high level, and significantly higher than in the era of Platini and Maradona.

[Diggers]

I watched plenty of Le Tiss, great player but didn't spend much time tracking back that's for sure, far more a forward than a midfielder. Genuine attacking midfielders are Lampard or Gerrard, Le Tiss played pretty much as a floating 10 role whenever I watched him.
Did indeed score some truly amazing goals though and a pretty good pundit.

[McLaren]

I know kwini thinks that Le Tiss was just happy to run out for Southampton and he didn't need to do any more if that is what made him happy, but does anyone else have any thoughts on why a player deemed to be so talented stayed at a club not fighting for trophies?

As Diggers mentioned above he possibly didn't do enough when the team were without the ball but is there any more to it? Was he a very streaky player with very bad off days?

[puligny]

Le Tis is on the board for an albatross at Remedy Oak - though he said it was a fluke, it proves he can still score from distance!

[Diggers]

Mac, I think personally he like the big fish small pond scenario. I'm sure big clubs must have come of for him, you'd think he had Spurs written all over him.
It's a shame a Ferguson type manager didn't get hold of him at his peak, he could have been really great with a better work ethic and conditioning.
I can see a fair of Le Tiss in Dele Alli, early days but he has bags of ability and has the advantage of being a great athlete as well.

[super_realist]

Chelsea and Spurs did come in for him Diggers.

[puligny]

Mac - I believe he was happy there and despite a number of opportunities to move on I reckon it's to his credit that he stayed. Whether his motivation was being a big fish in a small pond or more nuanced I don't know. He originally came over from CI, and in Hampshire he retained a close connection.
There is no doubt that without him Southampton would not have survived so long in top flight, and credit to him for that. True he didn't "track back" but defenders certainly regarded him highly, and he kept them occupied. I would love to have seen him at OT at one time, but you only get one career, and I've seen nor heard anything which suggests he is full of regrets. Top, and very nearly unique player.

[Diggers]

Be interesting to know if they were willing to up his salary, think he pretty much took up most of the Southampton payroll.

[super_realist]

Southampton matched the Spurs offer to which Le Tiss had agreed terms.

[beninho]

I think dele alli has so much potential, especially as ge played in the lower leagues and has tarken the knocks, he can look after himself!

Im glad le tiss never left the saints. It makes me look back on him more fondly. And theres a lot tgat can be said about working somewhere you enjoy yourself!

[McLaren]

How would Le Tissier stacked up against Cantona at Man Utd?

[Diggers]

True enough Ben, guess I just think of what he could have added to an England side had his game been a bit more rounded. Maybe someone would have built a side around him if he was at a big club... though probably not.
I vaguely remember him putting a 35 yarder just wide on his debut, then becoming completely anonymous. Wonder what would have happened if that shot had crept in.

[beninho]

How would Le Tissier stacked up against Cantona at Man Utd?

Different personalities, but not much in them technically as players. Cantona was the right person at the right time for Manchester United.

[super_realist]

Let's be fair here Diggers. Le Tiss might have had a very ordinary England career, but there hasn't been an English player who was able to replicate their club form consistently for the national team in recent memory, so you can't be too hard on Le Tissier when all the others have been just as poor.

Even if he'd scored that screamer, like every other player I would think he would have just been a cog in a second/third rate national side.

[beninho]

As just implied, I think footballers are all about personalities. Le tiss was a superb player but he waddled around in a team set up for him. I feel that he wouldnt take the pressure at a big club as he wasnt always great. Being a top player is in the head as much as what you can do. Look at messi and ronnie, so good but always working on their games.

[McLaren]

Super

I might be starting to sound like a Becks fan boy but he played pretty well for England.

[Diggers]

Probably Super, or as he would have been 22 and 28 respectively , he could have been the difference between England being World Cup and Euros semifinalists. He certainly would have helped on the penalty shootouts. A man can dream...

[super_realist]

Not really Mac, I know you're a lot younger than many of us on here, but I distinctly remember him being incredibly ordinary in an England shirt with only a few standout performances and there was always a clamour about him being played in the wrong position or not being effective or whether he should even play at all. Lampard and Gerrard were just the same.

Hard to remember the last England player who actually was consistently good, maybe Heskey or Crouch in terms of stats.

[Diggers]

Probably Super, or as he would have been 22 and 28 respectively , he could have been the difference between England being World Cup and Euros semifinalists. He certainly would have helped on the penalty shootouts. A man can dream...

[beninho]

Ashley Cole. Consistent for england and his clubs. Rarely had a bad game and one of the best defenders to have played for england. Such a good player.

[super_realist]

Pretty tragic and very revealing you have to go that far back, and I don't think latterly he was that great. Seemed to have lost pace and that attacking flair.

[Diggers]

Yeah that was the name that sprang to mind for me Ben. To be fair Ferdinand never did much wrong, we've had some very good centre backs, certainly compared to the current slim pickings.
If you are looking at stats Super, Lampards are way better than Heskey, better than 1 in 4 goals for a guy who actually played midfield compared to 1 in 9 for an actual forward.

[super_realist]

Does go to show though that there is something wrong with the England psyche in that they can't (generally) reproduce their club form internationally.
Certainly a lot more than just restructuring the FA required.

[beninho]

I dont think the psyche is tge problem just that the most teams in the premier league have very good non english players. The english players are not always the main players for their teams. So they probably do reproduce the form for country its just not noticed.

England has some good players just not loads of them and other countries have more. Its not fricken rocket science.

[Diggers]

I didn't used to think it was the psyche, the Euros changed my view on that. It was a 100% bottle job.

[beninho]

I struggle to thonk of soneone who is consistently good for his club and considerably worse when playing in the same position for England

[super_realist]

Well that's probably true too in that no England players are especially good at either level at present.

If you look at Vardy, Sturridge, and Sterling from last season though, that's a pretty good start.

You're right though, the likes of Stone, Hart, Cahill and Henderson aren't particularly good for their clubs either.

Probably Harry Kane is one player who is very good for his club, but doesn't do it for his country, Alli too perhaps.

[JAS]

Le Tis is on the board for an albatross at Remedy Oak - though he said it was a fluke, it proves he can still score from distance!

What hole? I'm sure you told me when I was there but I've forgot

[Diggers]

Harry Kane...who I rate by the way. But god he was shocking last summer. Vardy has only had one bad game for England that I can remember.

[super_realist]

Give him time Diggers, he's hardly got any caps and he's only scored one competitive goal.

[Diggers]

To be fair he has hardly had any starts, his goals per game is good. Anyway he's pushing 31 now and is a pace player so hardly the future. Maybe some of the big clubs academy players who have been on loan in the lower leagues will push on like Alli has, Chelsea have a great crop. We shall see.

[super_realist]

Thought Rashford might have been a good England player, but he's not playing for his club much and has gone off the radar.

As for there being a good crop. Where have we heard that before?

[JAS]

I also think Gascoigne was one of the most over-rated players in English history, he was good, but nowhere near as good as people said he was.

Wowzers, that's a statement and a half!! I honestly don't think I've seen more raw talent in an England shirt in my lifetime. I still went to the odd game when he was at Ibrox and some of what I saw was just jaw dropping (I also think Rangers got his best years). With a brain and a bit of discipline he would easily have ended up being recognised as England's best ever and Rangers would never have got a look in. Before you start with the "yeah but it was easy to look good in a Poopie league" there were Champions league performances as well and regardless of your opinion on OF games it takes a fair mix of talent and guts to stand in those.

[Diggers]

He's 19 Super, still played a part on most Man Utd games, usually on the left though so the goals aren't as easy to come by. I'd say he was learning his trade nicely, he can certainly improve by copying Ibrahimovich.

[Diggers]

I remember watching Gazza play for Lazio against the great Milan side, he was back to fitness again after the FA cup tackle. He was comfortably the best player on the pitch, as Jas says so much talent and football awareness. He had that knack of finding time on the ball. When fully fit he was utter quality.

[super_realist]

JAS, Brian Laudrup, Barry Ferguson and Kenny Miller looked good in that league too, but stunk the house out when they went to better leagues. Gascoigne was terrible at Everton and Boro and the spell of his career when he was good was incredibly small, probably as much to do with his tiny brain than anything else.

If Gascoigne had been Welsh, there's no way he would have been rated as highly. He's like a lot of English players in that respect.

[beninho]

Sturridge...a more over rated player with a modest record ill find it hard to find.

[Diggers]

Super, I know you like to completely write off England, but at 22 he was the best player in an England side that lost a World Cup semis on penalties, a game they were the better side in. Forgetting anything about stats, if you know football you could see the quality in his technique.

[super_realist]

Yes, I agree he was good for a short period, but I think like a lot of England players, being English adds 20% to how good people think they are.

Can you imagine the hype if Bale was English?

[beninho]

Your speaking bullsh#t on gazza. Gazza came through in the 80s a tine when.players were hyped because they were good. I put a video of his goals up, such a good player and those pitches were awful at spurs he was supreme. If he wascwelsh he would have been a different player so its a ridiculous statement.

Such a great player, I had a soft spot for spurs when I was a kid, and with waddle aswell another great player they were decent.

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