The Donald Trump Incredulity Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

I know that this doesn't relate to rugby, but feel free to say what you want about the 45th (and presumably final) president of the United States.

A man John Oliver once described as "a large clown made of dessicated foreskin and cotton candy".

[Rory_Gallagher]

Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.

In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe

What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

It has nothing to do with the wall, nor am I even defending Trump's own policies, I'm just giving the reasons why many people are voting for someone who promises to control borders and be stricter on immigration policies. Yet again, I find it very distressing that the deadliest attack on the LGBT community in America is played down, yet verbal abuse towards some LGBT members is used as a political platform to denounce America as this homophonic, racist and backwards country.

Are you aware of the background of Omar Mateen and his motives? Unfortunately, there is a lot of naivety surrounding the "nothing to do with Islam" statement. It is one element of why the act was committed. Not the sole reason, but it is certainly a big factor. I wouldn't claim that the shooter was particularly devout as he was a drug user (hardly permitted in the Quran) but it was certainly a driving force behind his actions. Learn some Arabic, read the Quran, read about Muhammad. There are justifiable reasons why some people are afraid of Islam and its anti-liberal sentiments, whether that is politically correct or not. That has influenced many voters (including homosexuals, women and other minorities). Merely discrediting those who are afraid as racists or whatever-phobes is ridiculous and removes any chance of a legitimate debate. That is why people vote for the "extreme" response. Nobody likes being ignored or scoffed at when they have legitimate fears.

I should clarify, as once again people will perceive me to be someone I'm not based on the above...I can be (and am) friends with Muslims from various sects, believe it or not, despite having different beliefs.

No I am not aware of his motives, but I am aware that he was at various times a regular visitor to the club. I think it is a case where it is all to easy (and simple) to label his action as 'islamic terrorism' when its actually a different situation. Any analysis of what happens points more towards Mateen 'going postal'. It is different from, for instance, the husband and wife thing (apologies that I can't remember much more off the top of my head) that happened at a similar time which very clearly was islamic inspired terrorism.

Read about what he claimed his motives to be. They certainly seemed inspired by Islamic terrorism to me. I know that he visited the club several times, that he was a drug-user (which I think is more important) and didn't seem particularly devout in the least, hence why I say it is merely one factor. I realise that calling it Islamic terrorism is simplifying what happened, but by his own account, his actions were partly driven by the killing of a certain ISIS leader Abu Waheeb in a US airstrike.

[Sin é]

Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.

In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe

What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

It has nothing to do with the wall, nor am I even defending Trump's own policies, I'm just giving the reasons why many people are voting for someone who promises to control borders and be stricter on immigration policies. Yet again, I find it very distressing that the deadliest attack on the LGBT community in America is played down, yet verbal abuse towards some LGBT members is used as a political platform to denounce America as this homophonic, racist and backwards country.

Are you aware of the background of Omar Mateen and his motives? Unfortunately, there is a lot of naivety surrounding the "nothing to do with Islam" statement. It is one element of why the act was committed. Not the sole reason, but it is certainly a big factor. I wouldn't claim that the shooter was particularly devout as he was a drug user (hardly permitted in the Quran) but it was certainly a driving force behind his actions. Learn some Arabic, read the Quran, read about Muhammad. There are justifiable reasons why some people are afraid of Islam and its anti-liberal sentiments, whether that is politically correct or not. That has influenced many voters (including homosexuals, women and other minorities). Merely discrediting those who are afraid as racists or whatever-phobes is ridiculous and removes any chance of a legitimate debate. That is why people vote for the "extreme" response. Nobody likes being ignored or scoffed at when they have legitimate fears.

I should clarify, as once again people will perceive me to be someone I'm not based on the above...I can be (and am) friends with Muslims from various sects, believe it or not, despite having different beliefs.

First of all Rory, the guy was badly beaten up, not just verbally abused by the Trump voters. Secondly, Trump building a wall, or stopping emigration is not going to stop the Mateens of this world because they are already American citizens as they were born there. Trump insulting the parents of that American muslim soldier who died in Iraq saving the rest of his American platoon is nothing to be proud of either.

[lostinwales]

Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.

In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe

What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

It has nothing to do with the wall, nor am I even defending Trump's own policies, I'm just giving the reasons why many people are voting for someone who promises to control borders and be stricter on immigration policies. Yet again, I find it very distressing that the deadliest attack on the LGBT community in America is played down, yet verbal abuse towards some LGBT members is used as a political platform to denounce America as this homophonic, racist and backwards country.

Are you aware of the background of Omar Mateen and his motives? Unfortunately, there is a lot of naivety surrounding the "nothing to do with Islam" statement. It is one element of why the act was committed. Not the sole reason, but it is certainly a big factor. I wouldn't claim that the shooter was particularly devout as he was a drug user (hardly permitted in the Quran) but it was certainly a driving force behind his actions. Learn some Arabic, read the Quran, read about Muhammad. There are justifiable reasons why some people are afraid of Islam and its anti-liberal sentiments, whether that is politically correct or not. That has influenced many voters (including homosexuals, women and other minorities). Merely discrediting those who are afraid as racists or whatever-phobes is ridiculous and removes any chance of a legitimate debate. That is why people vote for the "extreme" response. Nobody likes being ignored or scoffed at when they have legitimate fears.

I should clarify, as once again people will perceive me to be someone I'm not based on the above...I can be (and am) friends with Muslims from various sects, believe it or not, despite having different beliefs.

No I am not aware of his motives, but I am aware that he was at various times a regular visitor to the club. I think it is a case where it is all to easy (and simple) to label his action as 'islamic terrorism' when its actually a different situation. Any analysis of what happens points more towards Mateen 'going postal'. It is different from, for instance, the husband and wife thing (apologies that I can't remember much more off the top of my head) that happened at a similar time which very clearly was islamic inspired terrorism.

Read about what he claimed his motives to be. They certainly seemed inspired by Islamic terrorism to me. I know that he visited the club several times, that he was a drug-user (which I think is more important) and didn't seem particularly devout in the least, hence why I say it is merely one factor. I realise that calling it Islamic terrorism is simplifying what happened, but by his own account, his actions were partly driven by the killing of a certain ISIS leader Abu Waheeb in a US airstrike.

Yes I have read the wikipedia article and need to retract a couple of things in that his motives are still not entirely clear (as are the reports of him using the club)

I still think that although he used the Islamist thing as an inspiration he wasn't a mass murderer because he was an Islamist. He was instead a mass murderer who was also an Islamist.

[Rory_Gallagher]

I was generalising, Sin. Obviously it is awful that the guy was beaten up, and I do hope those who committed the act are found and punished. However, this happened before Trump and it will happen after. It is an unfortunate part of life that there are thugs who will use any excuse to commit thuggish activities. However, regardless of the barbarity of that act, it still pales in comparison to homosexuals who are actually murdered or imprisoned, which happens in many other countries that live in an Islamic theocracy. Some of those countries are allied to our liberal governments. Many, justifiably, fear that sort of world.

You are also missing the point. I'm not defending Trump's ideas about how to stop terrorist attacks happening again, I am telling you why people are voting for someone who is actually promising to do something and not scoff at those with legitimate fears.

I'm not proud of anything Trump says. I'm not a fan of his and I don't know what he said about the Muslim soldier.

[SecretFly]

First of all Rory, the guy was badly beaten up, not just verbally abused by the Trump voters. Secondly, Trump building a wall, or stopping emigration is not going to stop the Mateens of this world because they are already American citizens as they were born there. Trump insulting the parents of that American muslim soldier who died in Iraq saving the rest of his American platoon is nothing to be proud of either.

Does any of that matter to Trump though? 'That's nothing to be proud of Trump!' Tut tut.

He doesn't care what you or others tell him he should be proud of or not, so it's pointless pointing out his lack of love for the LGBT community or his suspicion of Muslims or his obsession with wall building down South ways. All you're saying is: "Trump, you're not like us"

He knows he's not like you. To be blunt he doesn't give a damn about you. And the millions who voted for him have a similar opinion. This time the 'Liberals' didn't win and a whacky 'conservative' did. He doesn't have to mimic your ideas to be a legitimate voice now for 'Conservatives'. The 'Liberals' lost. You can't win every fight.

[No 7&1/2]

I'm talking about an ideology, not people. Stop conflating the 2.

Anybody can call themselves a muslim, they can also cherry pick what they like about the faith and ignore what they don't like. So I don't judge individuals I meet just because they are muslim.

Can you please stick to the topic, I am discussing ideas. Again, what have I said is untrue. Where in my logic am I going wrong?

So you have no problem with any Muslim or Christian because of their religion. 'What I highlighted is where you are going wrong. A religion is an ideology, a collection of ideas and practices. If these ideas are bad or practices barbaric, then the religion/ideology is also bad and barbaric. The idea that gays should be killed for being gay is bad imo, so any ideology that has this idea is also bad in my mind. If one agrees they should be killed, then an ideology that does so won't be considered to be bad by that person'

Depite this.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Yes I have read the wikipedia article and need to retract a couple of things in that his motives are still not entirely clear (as are the reports of him using the club)

I still think that although he used the Islamist thing as an inspiration he wasn't a mass murderer because he was an Islamist. He was instead a mass murderer who was also an Islamist.

I don't believe Islam turns anyone into mass murderers. I know plenty of wonderful people who are Muslims. I just don't agree with their beliefs or their excuses when they try to defend Muhammad's life or what the Quran teaches. Unfortunately there are others who do follow Muhammad's example.

[the-goon]

I'm talking about an ideology, not people. Stop conflating the 2.

Anybody can call themselves a muslim, they can also cherry pick what they like about the faith and ignore what they don't like. So I don't judge individuals I meet just because they are muslim.

Can you please stick to the topic, I am discussing ideas. Again, what have I said is untrue. Where in my logic am I going wrong?

So you have no problem with any Muslim or Christian because of their religion. 'What I highlighted is where you are going wrong. A religion is an ideology, a collection of ideas and practices. If these ideas are bad or practices barbaric, then the religion/ideology is also bad and barbaric. The idea that gays should be killed for being gay is bad imo, so any ideology that has this idea is also bad in my mind. If one agrees they should be killed, then an ideology that does so won't be considered to be bad by that person'

Depite this.

If their religion leads them to agree with things I don't, then I will have an issue with them.

If someone says they are a communist or a nazi, odds are that we are not going to agree on a lot.

[the-goon]

It's quite funny that this conversation is just me defending my character, why aren't you debating my logic? Or correcting me if I have said something factually false?

It seems to me that the only way you can disprove my views, is to discredit my character. Try tackling the message, not the messenger.

[No 7&1/2]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

[SecretFly]

A communistic Nazi Fluid personage? Who loves birds?

[No 7&1/2]

Simply asked you a couple of questions to clarify your stance. Don't get defensive, just thought some of the language you used made you out to be slightly racist but we've got to the point you're saying that's not true.

[lostinwales]

Yes I have read the wikipedia article and need to retract a couple of things in that his motives are still not entirely clear (as are the reports of him using the club)

I still think that although he used the Islamist thing as an inspiration he wasn't a mass murderer because he was an Islamist. He was instead a mass murderer who was also an Islamist.

I don't believe Islam turns anyone into mass murderers. I know plenty of wonderful people who are Muslims. I just don't agree with their beliefs or their excuses when they try to defend Muhammad's life or what the Quran teaches. Unfortunately there are others who do follow Muhammad's example.

I believe that there is a huge amount of evidence that there are those who are gullible or stupid enough, or who can be conditioned to believe that the right act (e.g. the mass killing, suicide bombs etc) achieves a higher purpose that makes the loss of life worthwhile. And then there are those who don't care

[Rory_Gallagher]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

"I judge people on their individual merits."

To be fair, he said that at the beginning.

[the-goon]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

This conversation was not about how I treat ppl until you hijacked it and took it that way. It was a debate on ideas and ideology.

This is why ppl are voting for Trump, we simply can't have an honest debate about ideas without the left making it personal.

[No 7&1/2]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

"I judge people on their individual merits."

To be fair, he said that at the beginning.

But several things he has said other than that suggests he doesn't really and has a thing against Muslims in particular while ignoring similar feeling and thoughts within the more westernised Christianity.

[lostinwales]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

This conversation was not about how I treat ppl until you hijacked it and took it that way. It was a debate on ideas and ideology.

This is why ppl are voting for Trump, we simply can't have an honest debate about ideas without the left making it personal.

I don't think either side has a claim for quality debating skills....

[No 7&1/2]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

This conversation was not about how I treat ppl until you hijacked it and took it that way. It was a debate on ideas and ideology.

This is why ppl are voting for Trump, we simply can't have an honest debate about ideas without the left making it personal.

Very very defensive. Free speech etc means you shouldn't be scared to say what you actually mean here rather than skirt around as you have done. Be brave.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Yes I have read the wikipedia article and need to retract a couple of things in that his motives are still not entirely clear (as are the reports of him using the club)

I still think that although he used the Islamist thing as an inspiration he wasn't a mass murderer because he was an Islamist. He was instead a mass murderer who was also an Islamist.

I don't believe Islam turns anyone into mass murderers. I know plenty of wonderful people who are Muslims. I just don't agree with their beliefs or their excuses when they try to defend Muhammad's life or what the Quran teaches. Unfortunately there are others who do follow Muhammad's example.

I believe that there is a huge amount of evidence that there are those who are gullible or stupid enough, or who can be conditioned to believe that the right act (e.g. the mass killing, suicide bombs etc) achieves a higher purpose that makes the loss of life worthwhile. And then there are those who don't care

That is where you are wrong. Many of those at the top of the Islamic terrorist groups have been highly educated and remarkably intelligent. Many have been educated in Western societies.

[Rory_Gallagher]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

"I judge people on their individual merits."

To be fair, he said that at the beginning.

But several things he has said other than that suggests he doesn't really and has a thing against Muslims in particular while ignoring similar feeling and thoughts within the more westernised Christianity.

I think you are merely reading into his words what you wish to believe, rather than actually reading what he is saying. Your mind seems to be already made up about his opinions.

[No 7&1/2]

He's had a chance to reply and clarify yet merely gave a wiffling answer. He still has chance. Rather than talk religion he could talk about perceived and actual threats etc. Seems to be falling into the easy blame the outsiders mentality.

[lostinwales]

Yes I have read the wikipedia article and need to retract a couple of things in that his motives are still not entirely clear (as are the reports of him using the club)

I still think that although he used the Islamist thing as an inspiration he wasn't a mass murderer because he was an Islamist. He was instead a mass murderer who was also an Islamist.

I don't believe Islam turns anyone into mass murderers. I know plenty of wonderful people who are Muslims. I just don't agree with their beliefs or their excuses when they try to defend Muhammad's life or what the Quran teaches. Unfortunately there are others who do follow Muhammad's example.

I believe that there is a huge amount of evidence that there are those who are gullible or stupid enough, or who can be conditioned to believe that the right act (e.g. the mass killing, suicide bombs etc) achieves a higher purpose that makes the loss of life worthwhile. And then there are those who don't care

That is where you are wrong. Many of those at the top of the Islamic terrorist groups have been highly educated and remarkably intelligent. Many have been educated in Western societies.

Oh. Dear. 'Where I am wrong'?

Or am I so stupid to mention 'conditioning' without saying that someone needs to be doing the conditioning/manipulating/finding the gullible in the first place. Plenty of smart people with bad ideas (as well as good). Plenty of people find their own way to crazy causes. But the people at the bottom, the majority of the foot soldiers, are those who believe that their sacrifice will mean something that makes the loss of life and general carnage worthwhile. In contrast I think Mateen just wanted to go kill a load of people.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Apologies - I think I misinterpreted what you were saying.

[Sin é]

I was generalising, Sin. Obviously it is awful that the guy was beaten up, and I do hope those who committed the act are found and punished. However, this happened before Trump and it will happen after. It is an unfortunate part of life that there are thugs who will use any excuse to commit thuggish activities. However, regardless of the barbarity of that act, it still pales in comparison to homosexuals who are actually murdered or imprisoned, which happens in many other countries that live in an Islamic theocracy. Some of those countries are allied to our liberal governments. Many, justifiably, fear that sort of world.

You are also missing the point. I'm not defending Trump's ideas about how to stop terrorist attacks happening again, I am telling you why people are voting for someone who is actually promising to do something and not scoff at those with legitimate fears.

I'm not proud of anything Trump says. I'm not a fan of his and I don't know what he said about the Muslim soldier.

To put it in a simpler way - Trump is a very poor role model which seems to bring out the worst in some people. The fact that he is now the President of the US seems to give some red neck, racist and homophopic misoginists the green light. The KKK are going to have a victory parade for him should be enough to make most people worried.

When Obama was elected, I can't recall anyone having such worries about the new President.

[SecretFly]

When Obama was elected, I can't recall anyone having such worries about the new President.

Black people going about their daily business in a non-threatening way should have had worries.  

Hindsight is everything.  Maybe the Frantic worries (induced by the feverish Twitter generation) now expressed about Trump won't materialise?

[Guest]

Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.

In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe

What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

It has nothing to do with the wall, nor am I even defending Trump's own policies, I'm just giving the reasons why many people are voting for someone who promises to control borders and be stricter on immigration policies. Yet again, I find it very distressing that the deadliest attack on the LGBT community in America is played down, yet verbal abuse towards some LGBT members is used as a political platform to denounce America as this homophonic, racist and backwards country.

Are you aware of the background of Omar Mateen and his motives? Unfortunately, there is a lot of naivety surrounding the "nothing to do with Islam" statement. It is one element of why the act was committed. Not the sole reason, but it is certainly a big factor. I wouldn't claim that the shooter was particularly devout as he was a drug user (hardly permitted in the Quran) but it was certainly a driving force behind his actions. Learn some Arabic, read the Quran, read about Muhammad. There are justifiable reasons why some people are afraid of Islam and its anti-liberal sentiments, whether that is politically correct or not. That has influenced many voters (including homosexuals, women and other minorities). Merely discrediting those who are afraid as racists or whatever-phobes is ridiculous and removes any chance of a legitimate debate. That is why people vote for the "extreme" response. Nobody likes being ignored or scoffed at when they have legitimate fears.

I should clarify, as once again people will perceive me to be someone I'm not based on the above...I can be (and am) friends with Muslims from various sects, believe it or not, despite having different beliefs.

First of all Rory, the guy was badly beaten up, not just verbally abused by the Trump voters. Secondly, Trump building a wall, or stopping emigration is not going to stop the Mateens of this world because they are already American citizens as they were born there. Trump insulting the parents of that American muslim soldier who died in Iraq saving the rest of his American platoon is nothing to be proud of either.

You're right to be outraged, Sin é, as all right thinking people should be, but it should be acknowledged that the election result, as with the Brexit result, is a mere excuse for thugs to carry out their vicious acts as racists, homophobes, or whatever other brand of thuggery they adhere to.
Trump's behaviour and words have been vile, and he should be held responsible, but those carrying out acts of violence are also responsible for their own actions. Nobody 'made them do it'.

There is also the problem of standing on one side and demonising the other. The majority of reasonable, law abiding, citizens are not responsible for the minority who carry out those pathetic, senseless, acts. You shouldn't apply the broad brush to all. And it's a minority that is apparent on both sides. Any reasonable person will not stand on the one side condemning the other, but condemn all acts of violence and bullying on both sides. Otherwise you are guilty of bias, and your integrity devalued.

Here's a few examples for you:







And the following one is really interesting. It shows a CNN reporter asking leading questions to a black man, hoping to get material to demonise the Trump campaign (media bias), but the tables are turned:

[Rory_Gallagher]

I agree - he is a poor role model.

[lostinwales]

Apologies - I think I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Apologies for over reacting again Some interesting debates

[the-goon]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

"I judge people on their individual merits."

To be fair, he said that at the beginning.

But several things he has said other than that suggests he doesn't really and has a thing against Muslims in particular while ignoring similar feeling and thoughts within the more westernised Christianity.

I think you are merely reading into his words what you wish to believe, rather than actually reading what he is saying. Your mind seems to be already made up about his opinions.

Can we please stick to ideas not people.

Is the Koran considered the literal revealed word god? Which cannot be amended or altered in any way? Yes/No

Are contradictions in the Koran resolved by abrogation? i.e. later versus supersede earlier ones. Yes/No

Is homosexually deemed a sin in the Koran? Yes/No

Is the punishment death? Yes/No

In your opinion is this acceptable?  Yes/No

Do you agree with this statement? If not, why not.

Religion is an ideology, which in turn a belief system of ideas and practices

[No 7&1/2]

Same as Christianity then. You dislike Muslims.

[Sin é]

Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.

In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe

What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

It has nothing to do with the wall, nor am I even defending Trump's own policies, I'm just giving the reasons why many people are voting for someone who promises to control borders and be stricter on immigration policies. Yet again, I find it very distressing that the deadliest attack on the LGBT community in America is played down, yet verbal abuse towards some LGBT members is used as a political platform to denounce America as this homophonic, racist and backwards country.

Are you aware of the background of Omar Mateen and his motives? Unfortunately, there is a lot of naivety surrounding the "nothing to do with Islam" statement. It is one element of why the act was committed. Not the sole reason, but it is certainly a big factor. I wouldn't claim that the shooter was particularly devout as he was a drug user (hardly permitted in the Quran) but it was certainly a driving force behind his actions. Learn some Arabic, read the Quran, read about Muhammad. There are justifiable reasons why some people are afraid of Islam and its anti-liberal sentiments, whether that is politically correct or not. That has influenced many voters (including homosexuals, women and other minorities). Merely discrediting those who are afraid as racists or whatever-phobes is ridiculous and removes any chance of a legitimate debate. That is why people vote for the "extreme" response. Nobody likes being ignored or scoffed at when they have legitimate fears.

I should clarify, as once again people will perceive me to be someone I'm not based on the above...I can be (and am) friends with Muslims from various sects, believe it or not, despite having different beliefs.

First of all Rory, the guy was badly beaten up, not just verbally abused by the Trump voters. Secondly, Trump building a wall, or stopping emigration is not going to stop the Mateens of this world because they are already American citizens as they were born there. Trump insulting the parents of that American muslim soldier who died in Iraq saving the rest of his American platoon is nothing to be proud of either.

You're right to be outraged, Sin é, as all right thinking people should be, but it should be acknowledged that the election result, as with the Brexit result, is a mere excuse for thugs to carry out their vicious acts as racists, homophobes, or whatever other brand of thuggery they adhere to.
Trump's behaviour and words have been vile, and he should be held responsible, but those carrying out acts of violence are also responsible for their own actions. Nobody 'made them do it'.

There is also the problem of standing on one side and demonising the other. The majority of reasonable, law abiding, citizens are not responsible for the minority who carry out those pathetic, senseless, acts. You shouldn't apply the broad brush to all. And it's a minority that is apparent on both sides. Any reasonable person will not stand on the one side condemning the other, but condemn all acts of violence and bullying on both sides. Otherwise you are guilty of bias, and your integrity devalued.

Here's a few examples for you:







And the following one is really interesting. It shows a CNN reporter asking leading questions to a black man, hoping to get material to demonise the Trump campaign (media bias), but the tables are turned:

Rory, top video - although claimed by the guy who made the video, no one touched that homeless woman. She fell over herself and didn't get up.

As for the rest of those videos - quite a few of them contain latinos - the people who Trump demonised. Is anyone surprised they are angry. There is a clip of Trump verbally attacking a federal judge of Mexican origins.

[Guest]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

"I judge people on their individual merits."

To be fair, he said that at the beginning.

But several things he has said other than that suggests he doesn't really and has a thing against Muslims in particular while ignoring similar feeling and thoughts within the more westernised Christianity.

I think you are merely reading into his words what you wish to believe, rather than actually reading what he is saying. Your mind seems to be already made up about his opinions.

Can we please stick to ideas not people.

Is the Koran considered the literal revealed word god? Which cannot be amended or altered in any way? Yes/No

Are contradictions in the Koran resolved by abrogation? i.e. later versus supersede earlier ones. Yes/No

Is homosexually deemed a sin in the Koran? Yes/No

Is the punishment death? Yes/No

In your opinion is this acceptable?  Yes/No

Do you agree with this statement? If not, why not.

Religion is an ideology, which in turn a belief system of ideas and practices

It's not as simple as saying the Koran is the word of God, because Muslims believe it's only the Imams that can truly interpret meaning. I'm sure you can see the dangers in that. That also applies to your second question.

[Guest]

Well Fly, I hope none of your family in the US are black, female, gay or undocumented.

The problem with Trump is that he has now normalised these awful behaviours.

No he hasn't. That behaviour existed in the dark hearts of racists, misogynists and homophobes long before the election, and that mentally will continue to be opposed by the wider public. It hasn't been normalised, and it wont be.

Why bring gays into it? I do know that a group of gay activists were active in their support for Trump. Their spokesman said as much on a BBC interview last night. There's enough faults with Trump without having to add to the list. That same gay activist also claimed that Trump tends to employ people from the gay community.

OK - here is why.

In the post he said: ‘This hatred, bigotry, and senseless violence all comes from the same part of America that voted in a demagogue who spits hatred as his rhetoric.’

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/gay-man-attacked-hours-after-trump-election-win-6248329/#ixzz4PeyBbMAe

What an unbelievably bigoted statement.

There will be thugs before Trump and there will be thugs after Trump. As with Brexit. Don't fall to the media trap where they act as if these activities are something new.

Another important point - around 50 homosexual people were, you know, killed by an Islamic terrorist in Orlando last summer. I've no doubt that influenced many to vote for Trump who promised to respond and to control the borders.

It is an important point and its a great example of how cause and effect can be manipulated and distorted. Putting a wall up would not have stopped what happened, and it that case the fact that the guy was a muslim had little to do with what he did.

It has nothing to do with the wall, nor am I even defending Trump's own policies, I'm just giving the reasons why many people are voting for someone who promises to control borders and be stricter on immigration policies. Yet again, I find it very distressing that the deadliest attack on the LGBT community in America is played down, yet verbal abuse towards some LGBT members is used as a political platform to denounce America as this homophonic, racist and backwards country.

Are you aware of the background of Omar Mateen and his motives? Unfortunately, there is a lot of naivety surrounding the "nothing to do with Islam" statement. It is one element of why the act was committed. Not the sole reason, but it is certainly a big factor. I wouldn't claim that the shooter was particularly devout as he was a drug user (hardly permitted in the Quran) but it was certainly a driving force behind his actions. Learn some Arabic, read the Quran, read about Muhammad. There are justifiable reasons why some people are afraid of Islam and its anti-liberal sentiments, whether that is politically correct or not. That has influenced many voters (including homosexuals, women and other minorities). Merely discrediting those who are afraid as racists or whatever-phobes is ridiculous and removes any chance of a legitimate debate. That is why people vote for the "extreme" response. Nobody likes being ignored or scoffed at when they have legitimate fears.

I should clarify, as once again people will perceive me to be someone I'm not based on the above...I can be (and am) friends with Muslims from various sects, believe it or not, despite having different beliefs.

First of all Rory, the guy was badly beaten up, not just verbally abused by the Trump voters. Secondly, Trump building a wall, or stopping emigration is not going to stop the Mateens of this world because they are already American citizens as they were born there. Trump insulting the parents of that American muslim soldier who died in Iraq saving the rest of his American platoon is nothing to be proud of either.

You're right to be outraged, Sin é, as all right thinking people should be, but it should be acknowledged that the election result, as with the Brexit result, is a mere excuse for thugs to carry out their vicious acts as racists, homophobes, or whatever other brand of thuggery they adhere to.
Trump's behaviour and words have been vile, and he should be held responsible, but those carrying out acts of violence are also responsible for their own actions. Nobody 'made them do it'.

There is also the problem of standing on one side and demonising the other. The majority of reasonable, law abiding, citizens are not responsible for the minority who carry out those pathetic, senseless, acts. You shouldn't apply the broad brush to all. And it's a minority that is apparent on both sides. Any reasonable person will not stand on the one side condemning the other, but condemn all acts of violence and bullying on both sides. Otherwise you are guilty of bias, and your integrity devalued.

Here's a few examples for you:







And the following one is really interesting. It shows a CNN reporter asking leading questions to a black man, hoping to get material to demonise the Trump campaign (media bias), but the tables are turned:

Rory, top video - although claimed by the guy who made the video, no one touched that homeless woman. She fell over herself and didn't get up.

As for the rest of those videos - quite a few of them contain latinos - the people who Trump demonised. Is anyone surprised they are angry. There is a clip of Trump verbally attacking a federal judge of Mexican origins.

I'm not Rory.

The top video.... are you serious? That's what you get from that? I would then have to place you in the crowd that thinks it right to abuse a poor homeless woman that likely suffers from some mental illness.

So being Latino gives a person the right to attack a Trump supporter?

Sorry sin, I've misjudged you. I thought you were much better than this.

[the-goon]

Same as Christianity then. You dislike Muslims.

Hilarious. You chastise me for skirting around a direct question, but do the same. Hypocrite alert!!!!!

[the-goon]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

"I judge people on their individual merits."

To be fair, he said that at the beginning.

But several things he has said other than that suggests he doesn't really and has a thing against Muslims in particular while ignoring similar feeling and thoughts within the more westernised Christianity.

I think you are merely reading into his words what you wish to believe, rather than actually reading what he is saying. Your mind seems to be already made up about his opinions.

Can we please stick to ideas not people.

Is the Koran considered the literal revealed word god? Which cannot be amended or altered in any way? Yes/No

Are contradictions in the Koran resolved by abrogation? i.e. later versus supersede earlier ones. Yes/No

Is homosexually deemed a sin in the Koran? Yes/No

Is the punishment death? Yes/No

In your opinion is this acceptable?  Yes/No

Do you agree with this statement? If not, why not.

Religion is an ideology, which in turn a belief system of ideas and practices

It's not as simple as saying the Koran is the word of God, because Muslims believe it's only the Imams that can truly interpret meaning. I'm sure you can see the dangers in that. That also applies to your second question.

Do you want to continue with the remaining questions?

[No 7&1/2]

Same as Christianity then. You dislike Muslims.

Hilarious. You chastise me for skirting around a direct question, but do the same. Hypocrite alert!!!!!

Question that wasn't directed at me you mean? Not quite the same is it. You seem to dislike Muslims. Why is that?

[SecretFly]

Same as Christianity then. You dislike Muslims.

Hilarious. You chastise me for skirting around a direct question, but do the same. Hypocrite alert!!!!!

Question that wasn't directed at me you mean? Not quite the same is it. You seem to dislike Muslims. Why is that?

Maybe the best way around this situation is that you first say why you think he dislikes Muslims, 7. Then he could maybe say yes or no to your conclusion.

[No 7&1/2]

I think it's because he considers them outsiders, not native. Looks at the actions of some extremists and tars a whole religion with the same brush. I'm hoping he demonstrates something else to me.

[Guest]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Trump indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

"I judge people on their individual merits."

To be fair, he said that at the beginning.

But several things he has said other than that suggests he doesn't really and has a thing against Muslims in particular while ignoring similar feeling and thoughts within the more westernised Christianity.

I think you are merely reading into his words what you wish to believe, rather than actually reading what he is saying. Your mind seems to be already made up about his opinions.

Can we please stick to ideas not people.

Is the Koran considered the literal revealed word god? Which cannot be amended or altered in any way? Yes/No

Are contradictions in the Koran resolved by abrogation? i.e. later versus supersede earlier ones. Yes/No

Is homosexually deemed a sin in the Koran? Yes/No

Is the punishment death? Yes/No

In your opinion is this acceptable?  Yes/No

Do you agree with this statement? If not, why not.

Religion is an ideology, which in turn a belief system of ideas and practices

It's not as simple as saying the Koran is the word of God, because Muslims believe it's only the Imams that can truly interpret meaning. I'm sure you can see the dangers in that. That also applies to your second question.

Do you want to continue with the remaining questions?

Again, the same pretty much applies. The Koran isn't as strong on homosexuality, with just a vague reference, but the Hadith is much stronger. Again, Muslims will look to the Imam for instruction, and the general thought is homosexuality may be punishable by death. The interesting thing is that the 'giver' is thought less culpable than the 'receiver' The 'receiver' is the one deemed to be gay. You can see this is some prisons, for example, as sodomising a prisoner is thought of as punishment.

[SecretFly]

over to you goon.

[the-goon]

Same as Christianity then. You dislike Muslims.

Hilarious. You chastise me for skirting around a direct question, but do the same. Hypocrite alert!!!!!

Question that wasn't directed at me you mean? Not quite the same is it. You seem to dislike Muslims. Why is that?

Pretty flimsy excuse. are you going answer them then?

I seem to you to dislike muslims because you don't actually read what I say. There answered your question directly. Your turn.

[No 7&1/2]

Don't know enough about it to tell you what some Muslims beiieve, let alone all of them. For all I know yes to all. No, some religions breed hate like Christianity. Blaming a whole section of people is lazy and racist, I do believe you are a racist.

[mid_gen]

This thread is a perfect example of what is wrong. The Western capitalist system is failing people and they are angry.

But instead of being angry at tax-dodging multinationals, or an out of touch political elite.....we've been carefully pushed by politicians and the media to direct our anger at each other instead. You're either a racist right-wing bigot or a loony lefty liberal and there's not allowed to be anyone in between.

And while we're bickering among each other.....the multinationals keep growing their offshore cash reserves, while consumers and governments grow their debt mountains.

[Guest]

This thread is a perfect example of what is wrong. The Western capitalist system is failing people and they are angry.

But instead of being angry at tax-dodging multinationals, or an out of touch political elite.....we've been carefully pushed by politicians and the media to direct our anger at each other instead. You're either a racist right-wing bigot or a loony lefty liberal and there's not allowed to be anyone in between.

And while we're bickering among each other.....the multinationals keep growing their offshore cash reserves, while consumers and governments grow their debt mountains.

Classic divide and conquer?

[Barney McGrew did it]

All Abrahamic religions are essentially the same, with most differences being cultural interpretations. The only major difference is the belief in God born as Man in Christianity. Some of the worst atrocities have been waged by Christian on Christian in Europe (albeit a few centuries ago). Trying to claim one is inherently ‘worse’ or ‘more brutal’ just misunderstands them. Interpretations of course vary over time and culture. As does all human behaviour.

Nor sure what this has to do with Trump being a d1ck though.

[SecretFly]

Again, the same pretty much applies. The Koran isn't as strong on homosexuality, with just a vague reference, but the Hadith is much stronger. Again, Muslims will look to the Imam for instruction, and the general thought is homosexuality may be punishable by death. The interesting thing is that the 'giver' is thought less culpable than the 'receiver' The 'receiver' is the one deemed to be gay. You can see this is some prisons, for example, as sodomising a prisoner is thought of as punishment.

Well that's the neat trick to keep the weak oppressed - women and less robust men.  Society in ways hasn't changed much anywhere - not even in the West - because in truth man follows instincts more than logic and social patterns.  Man is an animal.  Animals aren't taught how to construct their rules of society, they follow programming given to them by their competitive genes - those genes that want to survive beyond other genes.  Our instincts are still there and we try to hide them with pleasant words, customs and philosophies - but the one trait remains, the weak will be used, abused and defeated by the strong.  And in the end, over a long time frame, there is no emotion in that process - and the process hasn't become extinct.
Crime gangs are nothing more or less than Ancient Chiefdoms operating right in a supposed modern world.  Respect demanded, rule through violence, hierarchy and inheritance.  Our basic operating structure as a species is still the one driven by Evolution - we can't escape it - the tribe.  We don't want a united world because our genes despise the concept - because the concept runs counter to the requirements of evolution - survival of those that adapt best.  The tribe.  Religions are versions of Tribes, but not the only ones.  Political parties or Philosophies are tribes.  And now even Gender Identities are basically tribes.  And each tribe recognises another tribe.  And when a tribe is identified, they become a competitor.  Tribes follow the age old process - the strongest tribe rises to the top and kills off or subjugates the other tribes.

All the friction in the world, in geographic terms and in terms of internal friction in societies?  Just look at it - it's evolution at work - and No argument is going to disrupt it or stop it.  That's the crazy thing when you look at it anthropologically - the fight for supremacy of ideas won't be stopped - and in reality, harmonisation and tolerance is not an option on the table in basic evolution.  Man has gotten this far through war and the suppression of competition.  It's not about to stop because the literate elite create grand arguments against it.

[Guest]

All Abrahamic religions are essentially the same, with most differences being cultural interpretations. The only major difference is the belief in God born as Man in Christianity. Some of the worst atrocities have been waged by Christian on Christian in Europe (albeit a few centuries ago). Trying to claim one is inherently ‘worse’ or ‘more brutal’ just misunderstands them. Interpretations of course vary over time and culture. As does all human behaviour.

Nor sure what this has to do with Duck being a d1ck though.

And some of the worst, more recent, ones have been committed by atheists. The root of the problem isn't religion, but the nature of man.

[Sin é]

I'm not Rory.

The top video.... are you serious? That's what you get from that? I would then have to place you in the crowd that thinks it right to abuse a poor homeless woman that likely suffers from some mental illness.

So being Latino gives a person the right to attack a Duck supporter?

Sorry sin, I've misjudged you. I thought you were much better than this.

Sorry about that - too many responses in the one thread.

While the poor woman might not be the full shilling, have you read what she has on those cards? She is blaming Mexicans for her homelessness.  I think you are expecting an awful lot of Mexicans and Latinos to always turn the other cheek.

T rump has incited all of this hatred.

[the-goon]

Don't know enough about it to tell you what some Muslims beiieve, let alone all of them. For all I know yes to all. No, some religions breed hate like Christianity. Blaming a whole section of people is lazy and racist, I do believe you are a racist.

Wheyyy!! Ad hominem attacks, the last gasp of a defeated argument.

The irony is that your view is actually more racist than mine. I have already said that ppl identify as muslim but cherry pick sections of ideology so I ensure that I judge on an individual basis.

However, your statements infer to me that you think all muslims think uniformly. I.E. you do not give them the respect to think for themselves as individuals. Perhaps they aren't smart enough for that? Your opinion, not mine.

Your view is generous in the sense that you think they uniformly think good things. It is this assumption of group think that means that you can't handle criticism of Islam because it will lead to think that is the view all muslims.

I'm not asking you to guess what all muslims believe, I am asking you analyse the ideology of islam, and to do that we must examine the source material. The Koran.

Christianity is a hateful ideology is it? Wow, if I said that about Islam you would jump down my throat calling me a racist. But it's somehow acceptable for you to throw out that generalisation? Also, is it whataboutery, we are discussing Islam, not Christianity.

I agree, blaming a whole section of ppl is lazy and racist, you have done that to Christians so therefore you are a racist are you not? By your arguments of course.

[No 7&1/2]

I have the courage to say what I think, you are too afraid. You dislike Muslims but not Christians. Why? Because you're racist.

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