The Donald Trump Incredulity Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

I know that this doesn't relate to rugby, but feel free to say what you want about the 45th (and presumably final) president of the United States.

A man John Oliver once described as "a large clown made of dessicated foreskin and cotton candy".

[Guest]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Duck indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

"I judge people on their individual merits."

To be fair, he said that at the beginning.

But several things he has said other than that suggests he doesn't really and has a thing against Muslims in particular while ignoring similar feeling and thoughts within the more westernised Christianity.

I think you are merely reading into his words what you wish to believe, rather than actually reading what he is saying. Your mind seems to be already made up about his opinions.

Can we please stick to ideas not people.

Is the Koran considered the literal revealed word god? Which cannot be amended or altered in any way? Yes/No

Are contradictions in the Koran resolved by abrogation? i.e. later versus supersede earlier ones. Yes/No

Is homosexually deemed a sin in the Koran? Yes/No

Is the punishment death? Yes/No

In your opinion is this acceptable?  Yes/No

Do you agree with this statement? If not, why not.

Religion is an ideology, which in turn a belief system of ideas and practices

It's not as simple as saying the Koran is the word of God, because Muslims believe it's only the Imams that can truly interpret meaning. I'm sure you can see the dangers in that. That also applies to your second question.

Do you want to continue with the remaining questions?

Again, the same pretty much applies. The Koran isn't as strong on homosexuality, with just a vague reference, but the Hadith is much stronger. Again, Muslims will look to the Imam for instruction, and the general thought is homosexuality may be punishable by death. The interesting thing is that the 'giver' is thought less culpable than the 'receiver' The 'receiver' is the one deemed to be gay. You can see this is some prisons, for example, as sodomising a prisoner is thought of as punishment.

Throughout all the bluster I didn't see this. This is interesting, but the Sharia is quite clear on homosexuality hence it being a death sentence in many muslim countries. I didn't know the giver would necessarily be considered gay.

They may look to the Iman for instruction, but how the Koran is interpreted tends to be the way I have described.

Although the Sharia is derived from the Koran, it is not the Koran. It is based on its teachings. Not all Islamic countries strictly enforce Sharia. Some think the penalties too harsh.

Imams do not all agree with one another - Radicals v Moderates. So interpretation isn't set in stone, and you describe one interpretation. A generalisation that's generally true.

No, the giver isn't (depending on circumstance). It's the receiver.

But the fundamental issue remains that Islam thinks homosexuality is wrong. That is a big issue when here in the west it accepted,  Christian do as well, and that is also wrong before anyone starts. We need to tackle that as well. But it's a matter of scale and severity of the condemnation that is the crux. Not baking a cake vs state sponsored murder is some cases.  

It's wrong to condemn someone for their belief. It's what they do with that belief that matters. No religion has a right to impose their beliefs upon another, or the shouldn't have, and nobody has the right to impose their worldview upon another's religious beliefs.

[Guest]

Exactly.

[SecretFly]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Women (they have never realised just how much power they have) and sex has caused many more wars than religion ever has or will. There. We gonna end women? I'd have to be against such a thing even though I know they'll cause more wars in the future.

[Guest]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

No it doesn't. It's false, and Seneca had his head somewhere the sun don't shine. It's shallow thinking.

[Cardiff Dave]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Unbeliever!!
Stone him!!

Not so sure it's a job of Science to prove that mumbo jumbo is simply man made mumbo jumbo. Science seeks the truth and encourages questions such as Why? and How? about everything. Religion avoids these like the proverbial plague. And I guess if mumbo jumbo was proven to be nonce, it would be in the form of abstract maths/physics which most wouldn't be able to understand anyway.

Jocks are out again for the 2nd half. Can you say the word "Jocks" these days? I don't get out much, so don't know.

[Guest]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Unbeliever!!
Stone him!!

Not so sure it's a job of Science to prove that mumbo jumbo is simply man made mumbo jumbo. Science seeks the truth and encourages questions such as Why? and How? about everything. Religion avoids these like the proverbial plague. And I guess if mumbo jumbo was proven to be nonce, it would be in the form of abstract maths/physics which most wouldn't be able to understand anyway.

Jocks are out again for the 2nd half. Can you say the word "Jocks" these days? I don't get out much, so don't know.

It's not their job, but enough of them believe it is.

[Cardiff Dave]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Unbeliever!!
Stone him!!

Not so sure it's a job of Science to prove that mumbo jumbo is simply man made mumbo jumbo. Science seeks the truth and encourages questions such as Why? and How? about everything. Religion avoids these like the proverbial plague. And I guess if mumbo jumbo was proven to be nonce, it would be in the form of abstract maths/physics which most wouldn't be able to understand anyway.

Jocks are out again for the 2nd half. Can you say the word "Jocks" these days? I don't get out much, so don't know.

It's not their job, but enough of them believe it is.

I don't believe that.
Feck me, now i'm an unbeliever! Stone me somebody!

[SecretFly]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Unbeliever!!
Stone him!!

Not so sure it's a job of Science to prove that mumbo jumbo is simply man made mumbo jumbo. Science seeks the truth and encourages questions such as Why? and How? about everything. Religion avoids these like the proverbial plague. And I guess if mumbo jumbo was proven to be nonce, it would be in the form of abstract maths/physics which most wouldn't be able to understand anyway.

Jocks are out again for the 2nd half. Can you say the word "Jocks" these days? I don't get out much, so don't know.

It's not their job, but enough of them believe it is.

I don't believe that.
Feck me, now i'm an unbeliever! Stone me somebody!

Do you believe you're an unbeliever? If so, that's okay and you avoid the stoning. If you thought you were an unbeliever or, dare I say it, knew you were an unbeliever.........then that would be curtains.........

[Guest]

No? You should read up on Richard Dawkins.

[SecretFly]

Rich is an interesting man but his theories have more holes in them than a sieve

[Guest]

Rich is an interesting man but his theories have more holes in them than a sieve

That's because you don't have faith in them, Fly. You heretic!

[clivemcl]

I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, I thought this was the US election thread....

[Guest]

I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, I thought this was the US election thread....

I know. I don't why it turned to religion, but I will talk about anything

[SecretFly]

I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, I thought this was the US election thread....

God has always gotta say in US Elections? You think different, boy? 'Cause if you do, there's a collection of stones here a waitin' for to deliver you to the devil.

[SecretFly]

Munster are crushing the maoris!

[Guest]

Duck.


Just checking.

[SecretFly]

Was Donald Duck a Republican anyway?  I know Mickey was a whiney Democratic liberal... but Donald, I didn't like his politics.

[carpet baboon]

Please not Dawkins. Anything but Dawkins

[Cardiff Dave]

As for free speech; those days are long gone in this here GB, referred to as UK nowadays. People are afraid to say what they really think and we aint gonna get BBC repeats of The Young Ones or Not the Nine O'Clock News anytime soon.

[clivemcl]

If only the actual intelligent people could just dominate the dumb people eh? If only the science loving atheists could force the religious to roll over and shut up. Ah yes, that's the stuff... that's eutopia right there. A beautiful dreamy fairytale dictatorship where nothing bad happens. No more of this democratic nonsense. I'm away to make a banner that's says 'no sense? No vote!'

[Guest]

Munster are crushing the maoris!

That's some score against the Maori. Well done Munster.

Have to watch it later.

[Guest]

Was Donald Duck a Republican anyway?  I know Mickey was a whiney Democratic liberal... but Donald, I didn't like his politics.

Donald was a bit of an angry head. I would say he was republican.

[Guest]

If only the actual intelligent people could just dominate the dumb people eh? If only the science loving atheists could force the religious to roll over and shut up. Ah yes, that's the stuff... that's eutopia right there. A beautiful dreamy fairytale dictatorship where nothing bad happens. No more of this democratic nonsense. I'm away to make a banner that's says 'no sense? No vote!'  

It's been tried before. The failed communist experiment.

[SecretFly]

As for free speech; those days are long gone in this here GB, referred to as UK nowadays. People are afraid to say what they really think and we aint gonna get BBC repeats of The Young Ones or Not the Nine O'Clock News anytime soon.

Rise up and don't let it happen. Too many words and expressions have been placed on a 'banned list' by the 'Thou shalt Not Offend Me' sect and, indeed, Duck is a blunt example of biting back and saying f**k off. It might be blunt but that's the way a fight back has to be worded. You certainly can't ask to be let off the hook: "Please sir, can I have my own opinion and not your 'non-offensive' approved version.

And then we frown when we denounce fundamental Muslims for daring to demand that nobody offends their religion under pain of death.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Unbeliever!!
Stone him!!

Not so sure it's a job of Science to prove that mumbo jumbo is simply man made mumbo jumbo. Science seeks the truth and encourages questions such as Why? and How? about everything. Religion avoids these like the proverbial plague. And I guess if mumbo jumbo was proven to be nonce, it would be in the form of abstract maths/physics which most wouldn't be able to understand anyway.

Jocks are out again for the 2nd half. Can you say the word "Jocks" these days? I don't get out much, so don't know.

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

Check out Francis Collins - one of the most important scientific minds in the human genome project. Happens to be both a Christian and a scientist. How did that happen? He also has written books about the reality of God. I guess he is just an idiot writing about mumbo jumbo.

There is a whole world out there of philosophy, religion and science for you to discover. It's quite interesting, on all sides. Have fun!

[Rory_Gallagher]

I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, I thought this was the US election thread....

I know. I don't why it turned to religion, but I will talk about anything

Me too, I'm actually enjoying the opportunity to talk about these things.

[Guest]

I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, I thought this was the US election thread....

I know. I don't why it turned to religion, but I will talk about anything

Me too, I'm actually enjoying the opportunity to talk about these things.

Yep, it's no often so many engage on these topics on 606, but it's fun.

[carpet baboon]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Unbeliever!!
Stone him!!

Not so sure it's a job of Science to prove that mumbo jumbo is simply man made mumbo jumbo. Science seeks the truth and encourages questions such as Why? and How? about everything. Religion avoids these like the proverbial plague. And I guess if mumbo jumbo was proven to be nonce, it would be in the form of abstract maths/physics which most wouldn't be able to understand anyway.

Jocks are out again for the 2nd half. Can you say the word "Jocks" these days? I don't get out much, so don't know.

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

Check out Francis Collins - one of the most important scientific minds in the human genome project. Happens to be both a Christian and a scientist. How did that happen? He also has written books about the reality of God. I guess he is just an idiot writing about mumbo jumbo.

There is a whole world out there of philosophy, religion and science for you to discover. It's quite interesting, on all sides. Have fun!

It's actually very intresting that a lot of scientific minds belive in God. And I have read Collins book. It's a thinker alright.

[carpet baboon]

I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, I thought this was the US election thread....

I know. I don't why it turned to religion, but I will talk about anything

Me too, I'm actually enjoying the opportunity to talk about these things.

Yep, it's no often so many engage on these topics on 606, but it's fun.

It's more impressive that for the most part it's been done politely and in good humour. Not dropped into a feck you shouting match.

[Cardiff Dave]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Unbeliever!!
Stone him!!

Not so sure it's a job of Science to prove that mumbo jumbo is simply man made mumbo jumbo. Science seeks the truth and encourages questions such as Why? and How? about everything. Religion avoids these like the proverbial plague. And I guess if mumbo jumbo was proven to be nonce, it would be in the form of abstract maths/physics which most wouldn't be able to understand anyway.

Jocks are out again for the 2nd half. Can you say the word "Jocks" these days? I don't get out much, so don't know.

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

Check out Francis Collins - one of the most important scientific minds in the human genome project. Happens to be both a Christian and a scientist. How did that happen? He also has written books about the reality of God. I guess he is just an idiot writing about mumbo jumbo.

There is a whole world out there of philosophy, religion and science for you to discover. It's quite interesting, on all sides. Have fun!

Agree absolutely and even Newton struggled with his beliefs.
Heard and seen this Collins bloke before. Not sure he's in the same league though as the greats.
Look at both sides I say, like Joni.

[Guest]

I must have taken a wrong turn somewhere, I thought this was the US election thread....

I know. I don't why it turned to religion, but I will talk about anything

Me too, I'm actually enjoying the opportunity to talk about these things.

Yep, it's no often so many engage on these topics on 606, but it's fun.

It's more impressive that for the most part it's been done politely and in good humour. Not dropped into a feck you shouting match.

It got a bit edgy at times, but that's to be expected. For the most part it's been really interesting hearing the different views, and entertaining with a bit of humour thrown in. All in all, a good thread.

[Notch]

Absolutely the best, most relevant thing I've read about people objecting to the accusations of racism against Duck supporters. The Cinemax Theory of Racism. Doesn't dispute that many Duck voters are kind-hearted people with genuine concerns- doesn't flinch for the fact that for all that, they didn't balk at electing a deplorable man. Seriously- whatever your views- read it.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

[Shifty]

Duck winning actually gave my father a heart attack. Thank god he was released from hospital and is still alive. Personally I think Duck winning is great, but my Dad is worried.

[Exiledinborders]

Absolutely the best, most relevant thing I've read about people objecting to the accusations of racism against Duck supporters. The Cinemax Theory of Racism. Doesn't dispute that many Duck voters are kind-hearted people with genuine concerns- doesn't flinch for the fact that for all that, they didn't balk at electing a deplorable man. Seriously- whatever your views- read it.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

If that is the best Trump's opponents can do then it is no wonder they lost.

[Notch]

Absolutely the best, most relevant thing I've read about people objecting to the accusations of racism against Duck supporters. The Cinemax Theory of Racism. Doesn't dispute that many Duck voters are kind-hearted people with genuine concerns- doesn't flinch for the fact that for all that, they didn't balk at electing a deplorable man. Seriously- whatever your views- read it.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

If that is the best Trump's opponents can do then it is no wonder they lost.

I'm curious as to what point you dispute. Is it that Trumps supporters are just normal and mostly decent people, good and bad, but they are not concerned enough about racism, sexism and homophobia to change their choice of candidate? Or is it that Trump is a demagogue, who has poisoned the rhetoric in the public domain and emboldened the actual bigots and racists to crawl out from under their rocks?

[clivemcl]

Ok Notch, I'll take a look at your analogy...

So yea, what it doesn't cover is the fact that you HAVE to take out a subscription to SOMETHING. So yea, to get HBO, you have to take Cinemax. But if you don't take HBO, the only other option is.... Nikolodeon!

Since the election, I have perhaps appeared to be a Trump supporter. I'm not. Not really. I just really get pissed off by people who get all up in arms by Trump's negative sound bites (which are of course concerning), but have not actually researched or educated themselves well enough about the alternative candidate.

It's almost like the only thing that qualifies you to be a president is knowing what to say and what not too. And so few are interested in digging beneath the surface. Look for example at the number who voted compared with the viewer count on the tv debates. A sizeable number of people voted without having much more knowledge other than hearing the shocking things Trump has said.

I'd guess that the majority of the protesters are actually first time voters, spurred to vote because of their outrage, but in reality very little political knowledge otherwise.

What's more, I get so sick of this world when the good message is actually crippled by an idiotic attitude. You've likely heard the Martin Luther King quote 'Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.' I'd like to add that extreme viewpoints are NEVER won over my an equally extreme but opposite viewpoint'.

I'm so sick of angry arguments, as if it's ever going to affect anything. I also hate hypocrisy with a passion. If the Electoral College system is wrong/incorrect/innacurate, then that has to be true regardless of who wins. This is not the first time the popular vote winner has lost on Electoral College Votes. The Democrats weren't petitioning on those occasions, so why now. Especially after lambasting Trump when he claimed he may not accept the election result if he lost.

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...

[the-goon]

So you would feel the same for a Muslim as for a Christian. Maybe you should just drop the whole religion thing altogether and just go with judge people as you find them rather than putting them into one box like Duck indicated he would, before backing right down now he's in?

"I judge people on their individual merits."

To be fair, he said that at the beginning.

But several things he has said other than that suggests he doesn't really and has a thing against Muslims in particular while ignoring similar feeling and thoughts within the more westernised Christianity.

I think you are merely reading into his words what you wish to believe, rather than actually reading what he is saying. Your mind seems to be already made up about his opinions.

Can we please stick to ideas not people.

Is the Koran considered the literal revealed word god? Which cannot be amended or altered in any way? Yes/No

Are contradictions in the Koran resolved by abrogation? i.e. later versus supersede earlier ones. Yes/No

Is homosexually deemed a sin in the Koran? Yes/No

Is the punishment death? Yes/No

In your opinion is this acceptable?  Yes/No

Do you agree with this statement? If not, why not.

Religion is an ideology, which in turn a belief system of ideas and practices

It's not as simple as saying the Koran is the word of God, because Muslims believe it's only the Imams that can truly interpret meaning. I'm sure you can see the dangers in that. That also applies to your second question.

Do you want to continue with the remaining questions?

Again, the same pretty much applies. The Koran isn't as strong on homosexuality, with just a vague reference, but the Hadith is much stronger. Again, Muslims will look to the Imam for instruction, and the general thought is homosexuality may be punishable by death. The interesting thing is that the 'giver' is thought less culpable than the 'receiver' The 'receiver' is the one deemed to be gay. You can see this is some prisons, for example, as sodomising a prisoner is thought of as punishment.

Throughout all the bluster I didn't see this. This is interesting, but the Sharia is quite clear on homosexuality hence it being a death sentence in many muslim countries. I didn't know the giver would necessarily be considered gay.

They may look to the Iman for instruction, but how the Koran is interpreted tends to be the way I have described.

Although the Sharia is derived from the Koran, it is not the Koran. It is based on its teachings. Not all Islamic countries strictly enforce Sharia. Some think the penalties too harsh.

Imams do not all agree with one another - Radicals v Moderates. So interpretation isn't set in stone, and you describe one interpretation. A generalisation that's generally true.

No, the giver isn't (depending on circumstance). It's the receiver.

But the fundamental issue remains that Islam thinks homosexuality is wrong. That is a big issue when here in the west it accepted,  Christian do as well, and that is also wrong before anyone starts. We need to tackle that as well. But it's a matter of scale and severity of the condemnation that is the crux. Not baking a cake vs state sponsored murder is some cases.  

It's wrong to condemn someone for their belief. It's what they do with that belief that matters. No religion has a right to impose their beliefs upon another, or the shouldn't have, and nobody has the right to impose their worldview upon another's religious beliefs.

Fair point. It would be 7 1/2 esque levels of hypocrisy if I advocated for thoughtcrime. What you said is 100% right. The fight isn't changing how ppl think, but making it clear that individual liberty comes before ideology every time.

[clivemcl]

If only we had elected a president who knows what not to say in public and keeps all he dodgy dealing behind closed doors where we can happily ignore them!

News flash. There was NO 'good' candidate.

[the-goon]

Absolutely the best, most relevant thing I've read about people objecting to the accusations of racism against Duck supporters. The Cinemax Theory of Racism. Doesn't dispute that many Duck voters are kind-hearted people with genuine concerns- doesn't flinch for the fact that for all that, they didn't balk at electing a deplorable man. Seriously- whatever your views- read it.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

If that is the best Trump's opponents can do then it is no wonder they lost.

I'm curious as to what point you dispute. Is it that Trumps supporters are just normal and mostly decent people, good and bad, but they are not concerned enough about racism, sexism and homophobia to change their choice of candidate? Or is it that Trump is a demagogue, who has poisoned the rhetoric in the public domain and emboldened the actual bigots and racists to crawl out from under their rocks?

If you think Trump is a racist or sexist or whatever other ad hominem you wish to throw at him, then you are not listening to what he is saying or are too fixated on language policing to understand the context of what he is saying

This article is nonsense, written by an ideologue for ideologues. I don't see any evidence for the -ist, -ist, -ists accusations, only the assumption that it's a given.

[clivemcl]

And whilst I'm not generally a fan... Russell Brand is nailing it to the wall in this video!

[the-goon]

Good to see the moderators have finally grown up with the Trump to Duck thing. Glad the tantrum is over.

[the-goon]

And whilst I'm not generally a fan... Russell Brand is nailing it to the wall in this video!

In fairness to the guy, one of the more insightful things he has said, but he doesn't see that the backlash of Trump, Brexit etc is against his ideology, globalist socialism, identity politics and cultural relativism.

[Barney McGrew did it]

Dear God, Trump is a strike for honest and righteous politics? Somebody shoot me, seems like the cure is worse than the disease. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Clinton (re) re-emerge in 4 years’ time. Or maybe another Bush.

As for the future - 'global politics' is a freight train coming your way, get used to it. It's a growing planet with shrinking resources - Trump is a throwback. And a nasty one.

[SecretFly]

Nope... It's the Globalists who now realise the glossy advert of Oneness of Beautiful Humanite Multisexual Beings Living in Socially Inclusive Harmony and Love ain't selling the produce.  
They realise now they have something they never anticipated when they first conspired on the Globalist idea.  They thought they had created too smart and too complex a notion for the poor/uneducated folks of the world even to think about.  They now know they're in a serious fight - worldwide - and their Bible of Babble is being shredded to the bone, page by page.  Nobody believes the One World Together tripe anymore.... if anybody ever genuinely did in the first place.  
Globalisation is a front for blunt Global Dictatorship.  Funny how the Poppy Argument on another thread recalls other conflicts fought against the notion of One Worldism and Dictatorship. Maybe it will get to another World War to solve the friction between National freedom and the present embodiment of One Worldism.

[Guest]

Just watched a BBC documentary 'No Where To Go'. It's about people in Dagenham who can no longer afford to pay their rent. Some who have lived in the property since they were a child.
One young mother and child were evicted. Also an elderly woman who is/was a special needs teacher.
There was a couple of really interesting points that stood out for me. One is that these could be the type to vote Brexit. Not stupid, not unemployable, just abandoned by a system that doesn't seem to care.
Another interesting point was when the elderly lady (the special needs teacher) was evicted and living in her car a couple of nights, she rang a Council agency and they said they couldn't help, but pointed her to the Church. Apparently there is a church network helping people just like her by providing shelter in the church as well as food.

The thought occurred to me that "the scourge of the earth" is a refuge for the broken, the desolate.

[Taylorman]

I think Clintons latest comments about why she lost the election have some nervy considerations. Sour grapes perhaps but the timing of the FBI reopening of the investigation feels like an undercurrent going on there.
As with the Kennedy Hoover days the FBI is more likely to have a better working relationship with Trump than Clinton and perhaps will be enabled to 'get things done' so to speak.

[ChequeredJersey]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Women (they have never realised just how much power they have) and sex has caused many more wars than religion ever has or will.  There.  We gonna end women?  I'd have to be against such a thing even though I know they'll cause more wars in the future.

Bold claim!

[Notch]

This article is nonsense, written by an ideologue for ideologues. I don't see any evidence for the -ist, -ist, -ists accusations, only the assumption that it's a given.

For the sweet love of God... he openly boasts about sexually assaulting women. There are now increasing accusations of sexual assaults coming out since those comments became public. He accused a female debate moderator who asked some hard questions of being on her period. and he has a long, long, long history of reducing women to their looks and treating them as objects He is the first presidential candidate I can remember to be endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan and various Neo-Nazi groups. He has suggested a blanket ban on all Muslims entering the USA, and a national database to keep track of them. He openly refers to 'the blacks' and 'the hispanics' as homogenous masses. He suggested that almost all Mexican immigrants to the USA are criminals and rapists but some might be 'good people'. He has said a judge who has found against him is biased because he is 'Mexican'.

You can disagree with my politics, but you CANNOT disagree that this man has said some unbelievably racist things. And I'm not calling out his supporters or anyone else- they are normal people. But thats whats scarier, all the normal people willing to turn a blind eye to this because it doesn't affect him. When we were learning history we were always asked about how people could let fascist regimes and discriminatory regimes happen; the two themes were they didn't realise it was happening until it had gone too far, and they were willing to turn a blind eye to the ugly, hateful side of it. Now I think Trump may well be neutered by the same system that stopped Obama doing what he wanted to do. It's right to be afraid but not right to panic- yet. But peoples refusal to acknowledge the obvious truth that is staring them right in the eyes is frightening, because this is exactly how evil takes root. Not by people being evil but by being willing to deny it and benefit from it.

[Notch]

Ok Notch, I'll take a look at your analogy...

So yea, what it doesn't cover is the fact that you HAVE to take out a subscription to SOMETHING. So yea, to get HBO, you have to take Cinemax. But if you don't take HBO, the only other option is.... Nikolodeon!

Not my analogy.

There is always the option to not vote, to vote for another candidate, to vote for a third party candidate. I don't think I could have voted for Hillary- I was torn to think about it, because we need to stop Trump but I'm not sure if I would have or not. I just think she was a terrible, terrible candidate and would do nothing to help most anyone in the USA. Please don't accuse me of not knowing anything about Hillary, even tangentially. I have so many friends who were directly involved in the Sanders campaign and only too happy to point out her MANY glaring flaws. I have friends who are Hillary supporters too, who I disagree with about her. Of course Trump will do nothing to help those people either- Sanders would have not been able to help those people. The problems are systemic and have economic issues at their heart, and the USAs and the worlds economic problems are almost beyond the control of politics right now- really what the President has influence over is certain social issues and foreign policy.

So you don't have to take out a subscription to something. You don't have to endorse anyone. Thats your choice. And stand by it, to be fair, but don't deny that the ugly side of that choice exists. Don't deny the upsurge in discrimination and prejudice that is happening in this mans name and the fear that it is causing to so many people. I know this may not be a popular viewpoint and I may be pilloried for it, but in the years to come I believe it will be increasingly important for people to call this kind of ugly populism out because we are going into seriously dangerous waters in the west now with the far-right returning to the political mainstream. People can now stand up and say really racist things, sexist things and still get elected. Whether or not Trump is the monster he is feared to be or whether he is able to be effective and get anything done without being obstructed, the climate still means someone scary could take power. Maybe it will be Marine Le Pen in France, maybe someone else somewhere else. Either way it's a room full of gas waiting for someone to light a match.

[SecretFly]

Point is it applies today 2000 years after he said it.  

There is still a significant proportion of the world that believes in a God of some sort be it man with a beard, a pointy headed floaty thing or a 4 headed man. Science hasn't answered those questions sufficiently and in fact i'd suggest that it has made religious zealotry and militant fundamentalism more of a problem.

Religion is in my opinion the scourge of the world. That some take comfort in it is their choice which i respect. But I'd like to see the end of it.

Women (they have never realised just how much power they have) and sex has caused many more wars than religion ever has or will.  There.  We gonna end women?  I'd have to be against such a thing even though I know they'll cause more wars in the future.

Bold claim!

Think about it. Think about what men through history have thought about women and how the personal ego of a man can always have the lure of a perfect woman somewhere in the mix of his ambitions. Men think about women and sex much more than they think about religion. It's just the world at work. No fuss - the caveman wants his woman to drag her into his cave. War is about genes.

[Sponsored content]