All Blacks to wear poppies v Italy

marty2086 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:If Germany, Italy or Japan memorialised their war dead there would be uproar

I see no problem in Germany, Italy or Japan wearing poppies on their jerseys, what uproar?

I never mentioned poppies, I said memorialised that could include a symbol that those in US, UK and ANZAC countries find offensive

You're a bit behind the times Marty, If you ever get to watch the dawn service from Gallipoli each year (25 April) their is a definite  place given by the ANZACS to the Turks in recognition of their fallen. I have never heard about any of  this uproar business before.

I never said there was uproar I said there would be, just as there is when the Easter Lily is worn in the UK

aucklandlaurie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

marty2086 wrote:If Germany, Italy or Japan memorialised their war dead there would be uproar

I see no problem in Germany, Italy or Japan wearing poppies on their jerseys, what uproar?

I never mentioned poppies, I said memorialised that could include a symbol that those in US, UK and ANZAC countries find offensive

You're a bit behind the times Marty, If you ever get to watch the dawn service from Gallipoli each year (25 April) their is a definite  place given by the ANZACS to the Turks in recognition of their fallen. I have never heard about any of  this uproar business before.

I never said there was uproar I said there would be, just as there is when the Easter Lily is worn in the UK

Well then your problem appears to be more with the UK not the All Blacks wearing a poppy in remembrance of their fallen, to be honest I never knew that Ireland had ever worn the Easter Lily on their jerseys.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Nation States are Political Entities.  If FIFA doesn't want to deal with Nations (flags, anthems, National pride, loyalty, folk memory etc) then I'd suggest they get out of the International Football game.

That's being pedantic in the extreme.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Nation States are Political Entities.  If FIFA doesn't want to deal with Nations (flags, anthems, National pride, loyalty, folk memory etc) then I'd suggest they get out of the International Football game.

That's being pedantic in the extreme.

No, it's too close to the point and therefore obviously quickly dismissed.  The Pedantic is the presumed governance of history, thought, emotion and memory by mere sporting organisations biting at more power than is naturally theirs to wield.  So I repeat, I hope the teams that wore the poppy this year, wear it next year and pay the fines again...and again...and again.  
Do FIFA listen to the Anthems?  Why don't they censor some of the wording of Anthems? (They'll probably get around to that proposal in time)  
Do they look at flags?  Do they know some flags are considered offensive to some and that some National flags are even regularly burned by peoples that find them offensive due to past politics and history?  Ban Flags?
And of course fans.  Fans that turn up with poppies - they get banned?  That'd be a popular ruling!

marty2086 wrote:If Germany, Italy or Japan memorialised their war dead there would be uproar

Cyril wrote:Considering Ireland's conduct during important conflicts of the 20th century some of these comments are disappointing.

Munchkin wrote:
And of course fans.  Fans that turn up with poppies - they get banned?  That'd be a popular ruling!

Agree with this, although I wont give you a 'Like', because you've got too many!

FIFA should keep their beak out of this one. All who want to wear the Poppy should be free to do so. Why on earth should anyone be offended by it?

England, scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland should refuse to pay the fine. Let them take it to court. Why pay a fine to a corrupt organisation run by a bunch of con men?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
And of course fans.  Fans that turn up with poppies - they get banned?  That'd be a popular ruling!

Agree with this, although I wont give you a 'Like', because you've got too many!

FIFA should keep their beak out of this one. All who want to wear the Poppy should be free to do so. Why on earth should anyone be offended by it?

England, scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland should refuse to pay the fine. Let them take it to court. Why pay a fine to a corrupt organisation run by a bunch of con men?

Its not about being offended by it. I have worn poppies myself and also attended 1916 commemorations however, if you allow poppies you will have to allow all political gestures and it has potential to get out of hand such is the reach and power of football.

Also I'm not suggesting people attending the game should or shouldn't wear whatever they want that's a separate discussion. I don't however, think sporting organisations like the FA or IFA or FAI should be promoting political commemorations. Sport should be removed from all that and focus instead on the values that go hand and hand with sport such as inclusion.

As such Im glad the IRFU chose not to have any 1916 imagery on their jerseys etc this year.

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:That's what poppies mean to you and something similar to me but not necessarily what the image means to everyone. The Nazi swastika wasn't a clear cause of offence to Nazi's obviously and there are lots of people across the world with ideologies that you and I wouldnt subscribe to or may find offensive that they wouldn't find offensive at all. One mans pride is another mans scorn.

The best policy is to remove all political gestures or commemorations as they have very little to do with sport anyway.

I don't advocate banning poppies from public life. Each to their own. I just don't think sporting organisations are the most appropriate medium for promoting them.

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:That's what poppies mean to you and something similar to me but not necessarily what the image means to everyone. The Nazi swastika wasn't a clear cause of offence to Nazi's obviously and there are lots of people across the world with ideologies that you and I wouldnt subscribe to or may find offensive that they wouldn't find offensive at all. You only get to decide what offends you not others. One mans pride is another mans scorn.

The best policy is to remove all political gestures or commemorations as they have very little to do with sport anyway.

I don't advocate banning poppies from public life at an individual level. Each to their own. I just don't think sporting organisations are the most appropriate medium for promoting them.

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

Ill call you what I want especially when the shoe fits, you are creating a narrative that exists nowhere but when you wrote it here

If it was anything to do with peace you would not see the military and political brass who send men to war anywhere near it or the memorials and you wouldnt hear those its meant to represent called heroes you would hear them called victims, you dont like being called a liar well dont lie

Munchkin wrote:

So, because the Swastika doesn't offend certain far right groups, or the SS before them, you think it should be acceptable? It isn't about the appeasement of all, because warped ideology should not be appeased.

No, I don't only get to decide what offends me. I will tell you, or anyone else, that they should be offended by symbols that stand for genocide, and extermination of people groups. I will speak out against a clear evil.

Sorry, Guns, I'm just not into all the PC horse dung that stretches to the extent of accommodating evil, and I would happily be scorned by those who think otherwise.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

So, because the Swastika doesn't offend certain far right groups, or the SS before them, you think it should be acceptable? It isn't about the appeasement of all, because warped ideology should not be appeased.

No, I don't only get to decide what offends me. I will tell you, or anyone else, that they should be offended by symbols that stand for genocide, and extermination of people groups. I will speak out against a clear evil.

Sorry, Guns, I'm just not into all the PC horse dung that stretches to the extent of accommodating evil, and I would happily be scorned by those who think otherwise.

Swastikas are an extreme example that you brought up. The point is sport isnt an appropriate medium for political gestures or war memorials because sport should be about inclusion and inevitably said gestures aren't all inclusive and they don't have anything to do with sport anyway.

The reality is that you cannot decide what other people chose to get offended by as that isn't your choice no matter how much you beat your chest and stamp you foot about it.

Munchkin wrote:

Yes, I used the example for that very reason, GG. You said  allowing the poppy should mean allowing all symbols. Now you perhaps see that you are wrong?

No, I don't get to decide what others are offended by, but I do get to decide how I react to that offence.

Some people are probably offended by the poppy because, in their minds, it represents an oppressive imperial power. They don't know the history of the poppy if that is what they think, but I can understand why they think the way they do. Now, I won't stop wearing the poppy to appease them. What I will do is try to reason with them why I think they are wrong, and explain what wearing a poppy means to me.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Yes, I used the example for that very reason, GG. You said  allowing the poppy should mean allowing all symbols. Now you perhaps see that you are wrong?

No, I don't get to decide what others are offended by, but I do get to decide how I react to that offence.

Some people are probably offended by the poppy because, in their minds, it represents an oppressive imperial power. They don't know the history of the poppy if that is what they think, but I can understand why they think the way they do. Now, I won't stop wearing the poppy to appease them. What I will do is try to reason with them why I think they are wrong, and explain what wearing a poppy means to me.

Obviously you cant use any symbols that are illegal. You are being a little daft now if you are claiming I meant breaking the law.

No one is saying you shouldn't wear it the debate is around whether sporting organisations should be promoting it on the international stage. Two very different discussions.

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

Ill call you what I want especially when the shoe fits, you are creating a narrative that exists nowhere but when you wrote it here

If it was anything to do with peace you would not see the military and political brass who send men to war anywhere near it or the memorials and you wouldnt hear those its meant to represent called heroes you would hear them called victims, you dont like being called a liar well dont lie

The military are there to represent the military that had lost there lives. Thought that much was obvious.

Yeah, you can call me what you want behind the safety of your keyboard. Fair enough. It does show that this issue is really a very emotive one for you though......

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

Ill call you what I want especially when the shoe fits, you are creating a narrative that exists nowhere but when you wrote it here

If it was anything to do with peace you would not see the military and political brass who send men to war anywhere near it or the memorials and you wouldnt hear those its meant to represent called heroes you would hear them called victims, you dont like being called a liar well dont lie

The military are there to represent the military that had lost there lives. Thought that much was obvious.

Yeah, you can call me what you want behind the safety of your keyboard. Fair enough. It does show that this issue is really a very emotive one for you though......

Well considering you felt able to lie from behind the safety of yours Id say the same

I never said they were weren't there to represent the military but you cant have them mourning the horrors of war then turn round and continue one

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

I know about the white poppy. The reason people wear the red poppy is not to raise money for the RBL.

The White Poppy was first introduced by the Women's Co-operative Guild in 1933 and was intended as a lasting symbol for peace and an end to all wars.

Worn on Armistice Day, now Remembrance Sunday, the White Poppy was produced by the Co-operative Wholesale Society because the Royal British Legion had refused to be associated with its manufacture.

While the White Poppy was never intended to offend the memory of those who died in the Great War, many veterans felt that its significance undermined their contribution and the lasting meaning of the red poppy*. Such was the seriousness of this issue that some women lost their jobs in the 1930s for wearing white poppies. The White Poppy Appeal is now run by the Peace Pledge Union.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

I know about the white poppy. The reason people wear the red poppy is not to raise money for the RBL.

The history of the white poppy will tell you more about the red poppy and what it represents than any spin coming from the RBL.

The White Poppy was first introduced by the Women's Co-operative Guild in 1933 and was intended as a lasting symbol for peace and an end to all wars.

Worn on Armistice Day, now Remembrance Sunday, the White Poppy was produced by the Co-operative Wholesale Society because the Royal British Legion had refused to be associated with its manufacture.

While the White Poppy was never intended to offend the memory of those who died in the Great War, many veterans felt that its significance undermined their contribution and the lasting meaning of the red poppy*. Such was the seriousness of this issue that some women lost their jobs in the 1930s for wearing white poppies. The White Poppy Appeal is now run by the Peace Pledge Union.

*The Red Poppy actually attempt to glorify war.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

I know about the white poppy. The reason people wear the red poppy is not to raise money for the RBL.

The history of the white poppy will tell you more about the red poppy and what it represents than any spin coming from the RBL.

The White Poppy was first introduced by the Women's Co-operative Guild in 1933 and was intended as a lasting symbol for peace and an end to all wars.

Worn on Armistice Day, now Remembrance Sunday, the White Poppy was produced by the Co-operative Wholesale Society because the Royal British Legion had refused to be associated with its manufacture.

While the White Poppy was never intended to offend the memory of those who died in the Great War, many veterans felt that its significance undermined their contribution and the lasting meaning of the red poppy*. Such was the seriousness of this issue that some women lost their jobs in the 1930s for wearing white poppies. The White Poppy Appeal is now run by the Peace Pledge Union.

*The Red Poppy actually attempt to glorify war.

No, that's your own spin on it, and if you knew anything about the origins of the red poppy you would know this.

Oh, and the origins started with women.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

I know about the white poppy. The reason people wear the red poppy is not to raise money for the RBL.

The history of the white poppy will tell you more about the red poppy and what it represents than any spin coming from the RBL.

The White Poppy was first introduced by the Women's Co-operative Guild in 1933 and was intended as a lasting symbol for peace and an end to all wars.

Worn on Armistice Day, now Remembrance Sunday, the White Poppy was produced by the Co-operative Wholesale Society because the Royal British Legion had refused to be associated with its manufacture.

While the White Poppy was never intended to offend the memory of those who died in the Great War, many veterans felt that its significance undermined their contribution and the lasting meaning of the red poppy*. Such was the seriousness of this issue that some women lost their jobs in the 1930s for wearing white poppies. The White Poppy Appeal is now run by the Peace Pledge Union.

*The Red Poppy actually attempt to glorify war.

No, that's your own spin on it, and if you knew anything about the origins of the red poppy you would know this.

Oh, and the origins started with women.

Thats the BBC's spin on it:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/remembrance/how/poppy.shtml

The red poppy was originally used by a French woman in 1918 to help raise funds in the US for French children orphaned by the war. The idea was adopted by the RBL to raise funds for veterans in the UK.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

Didnt know the All Blacks/NZRU. were raising funds for the Royal British Legion.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

I know about the white poppy. The reason people wear the red poppy is not to raise money for the RBL.

The history of the white poppy will tell you more about the red poppy and what it represents than any spin coming from the RBL.

The White Poppy was first introduced by the Women's Co-operative Guild in 1933 and was intended as a lasting symbol for peace and an end to all wars.

Worn on Armistice Day, now Remembrance Sunday, the White Poppy was produced by the Co-operative Wholesale Society because the Royal British Legion had refused to be associated with its manufacture.

While the White Poppy was never intended to offend the memory of those who died in the Great War, many veterans felt that its significance undermined their contribution and the lasting meaning of the red poppy*. Such was the seriousness of this issue that some women lost their jobs in the 1930s for wearing white poppies. The White Poppy Appeal is now run by the Peace Pledge Union.

*The Red Poppy actually attempt to glorify war.

No, that's your own spin on it, and if you knew anything about the origins of the red poppy you would know this.

Oh, and the origins started with women.

Thats the BBC's spin on it:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/remembrance/how/poppy.shtml

The red poppy was originally used by a French woman in 1918 to help raise funds in the US for French children orphaned by the war. The idea was adopted by the RBL to raise funds for veterans in the UK.

The origin actually goes back to 'In Flanders Field', and then to a woman in the US, before the lady in France took it to help the war orphaned. Nothing about the "glory of war" in that. To suggest such is to totally miss the meaning of the poppy.

True, that the RBL use the poppy to raise funds, and rightly so, but that isn't why people wear the poppy. That's missing the point.

You mentioned about war veterans not wearing the poppy, but you miss some of the context. Some war veterans stopped wearing the poppy because the horror of war was being forgot. When I look at the poppy, I don't see a symbol glorifying war. I see a symbol which reminds us why war should be avoided, and peace worked at above all else. If I truly believed that the poppy was about nationalism, or that it glorified war in any way, I would not support sports players commemorating the event each year.

At the same time, I fully support those who refuse to wear the poppy, for what ever reason they may have. I also completely understand GG's point, but as long as I believe the symbol represents the horror of war, I will support its commemoration in sports. That could well change in the future if I think the meaning has changed in a universal sense.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

I know about the white poppy. The reason people wear the red poppy is not to raise money for the RBL.

The history of the white poppy will tell you more about the red poppy and what it represents than any spin coming from the RBL.

The White Poppy was first introduced by the Women's Co-operative Guild in 1933 and was intended as a lasting symbol for peace and an end to all wars.

Worn on Armistice Day, now Remembrance Sunday, the White Poppy was produced by the Co-operative Wholesale Society because the Royal British Legion had refused to be associated with its manufacture.

While the White Poppy was never intended to offend the memory of those who died in the Great War, many veterans felt that its significance undermined their contribution and the lasting meaning of the red poppy*. Such was the seriousness of this issue that some women lost their jobs in the 1930s for wearing white poppies. The White Poppy Appeal is now run by the Peace Pledge Union.

*The Red Poppy actually attempt to glorify war.

No, that's your own spin on it, and if you knew anything about the origins of the red poppy you would know this.

Oh, and the origins started with women.

Thats the BBC's spin on it:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/remembrance/how/poppy.shtml

The red poppy was originally used by a French woman in 1918 to help raise funds in the US for French children orphaned by the war. The idea was adopted by the RBL to raise funds for veterans in the UK.

The origin actually goes back to 'In Flanders Field', and then to a woman in the US, before the lady in France took it to help the war orphaned. Nothing about the "glory of war" in that. To suggest such is to totally miss the meaning of the poppy.

True, that the RBL use the poppy to raise funds, and rightly so, but that isn't why people wear the poppy. That's missing the point.

You mentioned about war veterans not wearing the poppy, but you miss some of the context. Some war veterans stopped wearing the poppy because the horror of war was being forgot. When I look at the poppy, I don't see a symbol glorifying war. I see a symbol which reminds us why war should be avoided, and peace worked at above all else. If I truly believed that the poppy was about nationalism, or that it glorified war in any way, I would not support sports players commemorating the event each year.

At the same time, I fully support those who refuse to wear the poppy, for what ever reason they may have. I also completely understand GG's point, but as long as I believe the symbol represents the horror of war, I will support its commemoration in sports. That could well change in the future if I think the meaning has changed in a universal sense.

The White Poppy people explain it a lot better here than I would.

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/white_briefing.html

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

Didnt know the All Blacks/NZRU. were raising funds for the Royal British Legion.

According to the BBC it is (read that link I supplied).

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

Didnt know the All Blacks/NZRU. were raising funds for the Royal British Legion.

According to the BBC it is (read that link I supplied).

Doesnt say that at all.

It was adopted by The Royal British Legion as the symbol for their Poppy Appeal, in aid of those serving in the British Armed Forces, after its formation in 1921.

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

Didnt know the All Blacks/NZRU. were raising funds for the Royal British Legion.

According to the BBC it is (read that link I supplied).

Doesnt say that at all.

It was adopted by The Royal British Legion as the symbol for their Poppy Appeal, in aid of those serving in the British Armed Forces, after its formation in 1921.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

Didnt know the All Blacks/NZRU. were raising funds for the Royal British Legion.

According to the BBC it is (read that link I supplied).

Doesnt say that at all.

It was adopted by The Royal British Legion as the symbol for their Poppy Appeal, in aid of those serving in the British Armed Forces, after its formation in 1921.

It doesnt mention the All Blacks, it doesnt mention the NZRU, it doesnt mention the All Blacks raising money for the Royal British Legion.
To say that because  the Royal British Legion have adopted the red poppy as its symbol for their poppy appeal, it doesnt mean that everyone has. in other words some of us ie New Zealanders, the All Blacks, the NZRU still regard the poppy in the same context as spelt out in the poem "In Flanders Field".

"We shall not sleep though poppies grow in Flanders Field"  Need I say more?

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

Ill call you what I want especially when the shoe fits, you are creating a narrative that exists nowhere but when you wrote it here

If it was anything to do with peace you would not see the military and political brass who send men to war anywhere near it or the memorials and you wouldnt hear those its meant to represent called heroes you would hear them called victims, you dont like being called a liar well dont lie

The military are there to represent the military that had lost there lives. Thought that much was obvious.

Yeah, you can call me what you want behind the safety of your keyboard. Fair enough. It does show that this issue is really a very emotive one for you though......

Well considering you felt able to lie from behind the safety of yours Id say the same

I never said they were weren't there to represent the military but you cant have them mourning the horrors of war then turn round and continue one

It's all in your head, marty.

If you can't understand that as I view the poppy as a symbol of the horrors of war, then I also view it as a symbol of peace, then you simply can't follow logic. You can, and I'm sure you do understand.

Calling someone a liar behind the safety of a keyboard is very different to lying behind a keyboard, but nice try.

GG views the wearing of a poppy very much as I do. Is he also a liar?

Anyway, let it go, marty. There's no point in falling out over a poppy. Maybe especially a poppy

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

Ill call you what I want especially when the shoe fits, you are creating a narrative that exists nowhere but when you wrote it here

If it was anything to do with peace you would not see the military and political brass who send men to war anywhere near it or the memorials and you wouldnt hear those its meant to represent called heroes you would hear them called victims, you dont like being called a liar well dont lie

The military are there to represent the military that had lost there lives. Thought that much was obvious.

Yeah, you can call me what you want behind the safety of your keyboard. Fair enough. It does show that this issue is really a very emotive one for you though......

Well considering you felt able to lie from behind the safety of yours Id say the same

I never said they were weren't there to represent the military but you cant have them mourning the horrors of war then turn round and continue one

It's all in your head, marty.

If you can't understand that as I view the poppy as a symbol of the horrors of war, then I also view it as a symbol of peace, then you simply can't follow logic. You can, and I'm sure you do understand.

Calling someone a liar behind the safety of a keyboard is very different to lying behind a keyboard, but nice try.

GG views the wearing of a poppy very much as I do. Is he also a liar?

Anyway, let it go, marty. There's no point in falling out over a poppy. Maybe especially a poppy

You view the poppy as the symbol of peace woopie for you, makes you a fool rather than a liar then

The poppy is used by the British Legion, which uses its funds for supporting the military thats not not peaceful thats actively supporting those who engage in war. If you think thats peaceful then Id hate to see what you think flies in the face of it.

TJ wrote:We you have been very assertive here munchkin despite being completely wrong on several points.

Ill just leave this here
http://noglory.org/index.php/articles/75-this-year-i-will-wear-a-poppy-for-the-last-time-says-91-year-old-veteran

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ex-sas-soldier-blasts-poppy-appeal-1884260

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

Didnt know the All Blacks/NZRU. were raising funds for the Royal British Legion.

According to the BBC it is (read that link I supplied).

Doesnt say that at all.

It was adopted by The Royal British Legion as the symbol for their Poppy Appeal, in aid of those serving in the British Armed Forces, after its formation in 1921.

It doesnt mention the All Blacks, it doesnt mention the NZRU, it doesnt mention the All Blacks raising money for the Royal British Legion.
To say that because  the Royal British Legion have adopted the red poppy as its symbol for their poppy appeal, it doesnt mean that everyone has. in other words some of us ie New Zealanders, the All Blacks, the NZRU still regard the poppy in the same context as spelt out in the poem "In Flanders Field".

"We shall not sleep though poppies grow in Flanders Field"  Need I say more?

If that meant anything, there would not have been World War II, Invasion of Iraq, bombing of Yemen or Bloody Sunday in Croke Park and Derry.

The Red Poppy is a British Empire/Commonwealth thing. Try not to inflict it on the rest of us.

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I don't agree that allowing poppies has to mean allowing all political symbols. It's debatable whether a poppy is a political symbol. It is, or the original intent is, a symbol of universal loss, and hope for world peace.

Sorry but you are just making stuff up now, the poppy has never had anything to do with peace

This seems to be an emotive issue for you, marty, but don't call me a liar again.

The poppy is used to commemorate the dead. As such, it is a symbol of the horrors of war, not the glory of war, if such a thing existed. In that, it is a symbol for world peace. You may not understand that much, but many do, including, and more importantly, those who actually fought through both wars.

The white poppy is the symbol of peace, not the red which is basically used as a fund raiser for the Royal British Legion.

Didnt know the All Blacks/NZRU. were raising funds for the Royal British Legion.

According to the BBC it is (read that link I supplied).

Doesnt say that at all.

It was adopted by The Royal British Legion as the symbol for their Poppy Appeal, in aid of those serving in the British Armed Forces, after its formation in 1921.

It doesnt mention the All Blacks, it doesnt mention the NZRU, it doesnt mention the All Blacks raising money for the Royal British Legion.
To say that because  the Royal British Legion have adopted the red poppy as its symbol for their poppy appeal, it doesnt mean that everyone has. in other words some of us ie New Zealanders, the All Blacks, the NZRU still regard the poppy in the same context as spelt out in the poem "In Flanders Field".

"We shall not sleep though poppies grow in Flanders Field"  Need I say more?

If that meant anything, there would not have been World War II, Invasion of Iraq, bombing of Yemen or Bloody Sunday in Croke Park and Derry.

The Red Poppy is a British Empire/Commonwealth thing. Try not to inflict it on the rest of us.