All Blacks to wear poppies v Italy

by GunsGerms Thu 10 Nov 2016, 8:55 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11745945

Are we in danger of entering poppy overload? Has it not become a bit excessive and garish? I understand the significance and it is understandable that people want to respect war heroes and yes Dave Gallagher the first AB captain did die in world war one. However, do we really need to mix sport with politics?

It seems that every time I turn on the BBC rugby commentary someone is wearing a poppy. I mean there was a time that only vets wore them now all of a sudden everyone wants in on the act.

Thoughts?

by GunsGerms Thu 10 Nov 2016, 2:47 pm

munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:

I personally dont like it. Much prefer Ireland's call because it isnt political, it isnt out dated, it isnt a terrible song and yet it does still evoke a modern sense of national pride.

Oh Dear. Phil Coulter schmaltz is what I hear. Funny how our ears are all different.

I don't know a single Irish person that likes it.

Well now you do and I have said it loads of times on this forum.

by Cyril Thu 10 Nov 2016, 2:48 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:

I personally dont like it. Much prefer Ireland's call because it isnt political, it isnt out dated, it isnt a terrible song and yet it does still evoke a modern sense of national pride.

Oh Dear. Phil Coulter schmaltz is what I hear. Funny how our ears are all different.

I don't know a single Irish person that likes it.

Well now you do and I have said it loads of times on this forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW0K205N6PQ

by GunsGerms Thu 10 Nov 2016, 2:50 pm

Irish people pretend they dont like Ireland's call for some reason when they really do. It was literally belted out in Soldier field before the ABs game so I think there are those out there that like it more than they admit down the pub.

by SecretFly Thu 10 Nov 2016, 2:52 pm

GunsGerms wrote:

I have my own relative that died in WW1 that I honour. I just don't do it at rugby matches. That's my point.

The New Zealand Rugby Union do. And I guess, as long as all of the players share that view and all of them are freely willing to wear it, that's all that's needed.

by munkian Thu 10 Nov 2016, 2:54 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Irish people pretend they dont like Ireland's call for some reason when they really do. It was literally belted out in Soldier field before the ABs game so I think there are those out there that like it more than they admit down the pub.

Ah yes, all those 'Irish' at the game Leprechaun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LncqnEi8Rw

by SecretFly Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:01 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Irish people pretend they dont like Ireland's call for some reason when they really do. It was literally belted out in Soldier field before the ABs game so I think there are those out there that like it more than they admit down the pub.

I personally and honestly HATE it. But I tolerate it because, from the beginning, it was marketed as a song that everyone was comfortable with. So let everyone be comfortable, sing the damn song, get it over with as quickly as possible so that I can stop being embarrassed, and move on to the game.
It's a badly written, mawkish, dreary auld drunken pub song. If that's to the taste of the majority of Irish Rugby followers, so be it. But I'll decide on the 'Pretend not to like it' bit. Wink

by aucklandlaurie Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:01 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:

GG all war is garish, but to say it is misplaced is just being insulting to those that paid the ultimate sacrifice in both wars, it probably doesnt matter one little jot to you the number of New Zealanders that made that sacrifice or the importance that they should be remembered. The promise is that by remembering them we will not repeat the killing that occurred during the two World Wars or else they died in vain. Do you really think thats a bad thing? It wasnt called "the Great War" for nothing.

Armistice day is on November 11.

The All Blacks want to pay tribute and recognise the sacrifice made, and they do that through Rugby, What better homage can they pay? If you dont like it or agree with it then you could always keep your disrespectful and insulting thoughts to yourself.

Its not being insulting at all. Im not saying New Zealanders cant celebrate their dead I'm just arguing that a rugby match is a odd stage for such a display. You seem to be taking that argument very personally for some reason.

I have my own relative that died in WW1 that I honour. I just don't do it at rugby matches. That's my point.

A Rugby match is not odd at all, It is a Rugby match being played the week of Armistice Day, It is a Rugby match being played against Italy, and the All Blacks recognise the contribution made New Zealanders in battle of Monte Casino as well as WW1.

There is no higher manner for an All black to show gratitude to those who fell, than by honouring their contribution through an International Rugby match. To criticise them for doing so is being insulting to them and their cause. There are much bigger things in life (and death) than Rugby.

by GunsGerms Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:05 pm

Sorry but it isnt. They are free to do whatever they want and show gratitude to whoever they want but to do it in a rugby game for me is odd.

2016 is also the anniversity of the easter rising. I would also have found it strange if this was celebrated at an Ireland rugby game even though the president of the IRFU was shot during the easter rising.

Im not offended that the IRFU didnt acknowledge it because they are a rugby organisation and not a war memorial service.

by marty2086 Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:08 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry but it isnt. They are free to do whatever they want and show gratitude to whoever they want but to do it in a rugby game for me is odd.

2016 is also the anniversity of the easter rising. I would also have found it strange if this was celebrated at an Ireland rugby game even though the president of the IRFU was shot during the easter rising.

Im not offended that the IRFU didnt acknowledge it because they are a rugby organisation and not a war memorial service.

Given the IRFUs status too it would have raised hell

James McClean gets abuse for not wearing the poppy and wearing the Easter Lily

by SecretFly Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:12 pm

It's a people memorial. It remembers people who were sent to their death during a war.

As Cyril said earlier, my only criticism of it on and of is when the personal conviction of each and every player on the issue isn't respected. No player should be forced to wear one or bullied after declaring he couldn't wear one. Those that want to wear it should do so with pride. Those who can't should be left alone.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:13 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:

Jeez man, if you dont like it then dont watch the game or buy the jersey, you appear to be overlooking the role that New Zealand played in the Italian campaign, and the fact that many New Zealanders travelled half way round the World and gave their lives in the pursuit of Hitler through Italy.

You need to understand what respect is before you start questioning it or who deserves it or not. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but consider it from a New Zealanders point of view in this instance.

You're missing the point. I am very much interested in watching the game. I'm not tuning in for a war memorial. If the ABs want to stitch poppies onto their jerseys that their business. It wont stop me from watching it however, nor will it stop me from thinking it is a bit garish and misplaced.

GG all war is garish, but to say it is misplaced is just being insulting to those that paid the ultimate sacrifice in both wars, it probably doesnt matter one little jot to you the number of New Zealanders that made that sacrifice or the importance that they should be remembered. The promise is that by remembering them we will not repeat the killing that occurred during the two World Wars or else they died in vain. Do you really think thats a bad thing? It wasnt called "the Great War" for nothing.

Armistice day is on November 11.

The All Blacks want to pay tribute and recognise the sacrifice made, and they do that through Rugby, What better homage can they pay? If you dont like it or agree with it then you could always keep your disrespectful and insulting thoughts to yourself.

Its not just the 2 world wars that it honors though. Don't the proceeds of the sale of the poppy go to the British Legion.

I don't have a problem with people honouring their own dead - but I don't think its right to have it shoved down our faces. For example, I wouldn't like to have to see British people being forced to wear a lily at eastertime in Ireland to honour the heroes of the 1916 rising.

Now, I don't want to make a big deal out of it, but any of you lot criticising us Irish for not wearing it should remember that the infamous and most hated occupying force, the Black & Tans were operating in Ireland in the early 1920s were all World War I veterans.

by aucklandlaurie Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:18 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry but it isnt. They are free to do whatever they want and show gratitude to whoever they want but to do it in a rugby game for me is odd.

2016 is also the anniversity of the easter rising. I would also have found it strange if this was celebrated at an Ireland rugby game even though the president of the IRFU was shot during the easter rising.

Im not offended that the IRFU didnt acknowledge it because they are a rugby organisation and not a war memorial service.

Do you honestly believe that? Do you not see the importance of Rugby players acknowledging the contribution made through Rugby.

I dont mean to sound disrespectful but I wouldnt place the Easter Rising in the Same category as two World Wars , but I apologise in advance if you do.

by munkian Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:19 pm

So, let me guess, if you see a gay couple on TV I bet its the 'homosexual agenda' being 'shoved down your face' Rolling Eyes

No one is forcing an agenda on anyone, plenty of Irish died in the British army too.

And Im pretty sure the Vikings were an occupying force in Ireland - I doubt they came bearing peace and love.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:21 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Sorry but it isnt. They are free to do whatever they want and show gratitude to whoever they want but to do it in a rugby game for me is odd.

2016 is also the anniversity of the easter rising. I would also have found it strange if this was celebrated at an Ireland rugby game even though the president of the IRFU was shot during the easter rising.

Im not offended that the IRFU didnt acknowledge it because they are a rugby organisation and not a war memorial service.

Do you honestly believe that? Do you not see the importance of Rugby players acknowledging the contribution made through Rugby.

I dont mean to sound disrespectful but I wouldnt place the Easter Rising in the Same category as two World Wars , but I apologise in advance if you do.

And there is the arrogance of it all - your dead is more important than our dead. All the poppy does is glorify war.

by marty2086 Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:23 pm

munkian wrote:So, let me guess, if you see a gay couple on TV I bet its the 'homosexual agenda' being 'shoved down your face'

No one is forcing an agenda on anyone, plenty of Irish died in the British army too.

And Im pretty sure the Vikings were an occupying force in Ireland - I doubt they came bearing peace and love.

A stupid comparison

The British army were part of the machine that subjugated millions and killed many while being responsible for the deaths of others so honouring those that were responsible for that leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of their victims

by SecretFly Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:26 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Sorry but it isnt. They are free to do whatever they want and show gratitude to whoever they want but to do it in a rugby game for me is odd.

2016 is also the anniversity of the easter rising. I would also have found it strange if this was celebrated at an Ireland rugby game even though the president of the IRFU was shot during the easter rising.

Im not offended that the IRFU didnt acknowledge it because they are a rugby organisation and not a war memorial service.

Do you honestly believe that? Do you not see the importance of Rugby players acknowledging the contribution made through Rugby.

I dont mean to sound disrespectful but I wouldnt place the Easter Rising in the Same category as two World Wars , but I apologise in advance if you do.

I'd say any soldier who has died in battle for a cause they believe in (and let's face it, many in WW1 hadn't a clue why they were in trenches or held down on a bloody coast in Gallipoli - incidently as many Irish died there as New Zealanders). But back to the point, a dead soldier is a dead soldier, and if they are lucky, they get a grave into which they go as single individuals with a gravestone (an honour the 1916 executed men weren't given)

So yeah, I'd personally be offended by the idea that the people who died so that I could call myself a citizen of this Republic, mean less in their graves than the bodies of WW soldiers mean in theirs.

by munkian Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:26 pm

I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

by aucklandlaurie Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:27 pm

Sin é wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Sorry but it isnt. They are free to do whatever they want and show gratitude to whoever they want but to do it in a rugby game for me is odd.

2016 is also the anniversity of the easter rising. I would also have found it strange if this was celebrated at an Ireland rugby game even though the president of the IRFU was shot during the easter rising.

Im not offended that the IRFU didnt acknowledge it because they are a rugby organisation and not a war memorial service.

Do you honestly believe that? Do you not see the importance of Rugby players acknowledging the contribution made through Rugby.

I dont mean to sound disrespectful but I wouldnt place the Easter Rising in the Same category as two World Wars , but I apologise in advance if you do.

And there is the arrogance of it all - your dead is more important than our dead. All the poppy does is glorify war.

Do you not realise that more people lost their lives in the Two World Wars than in the Easter Rising? from countries all around the Globe not just Ireland.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:27 pm

munkian wrote:So, let me guess, if you see a gay couple on TV I bet its the 'homosexual agenda' being 'shoved down your face'

No one is forcing an agenda on anyone, plenty of Irish died in the British army too.

And Im pretty sure the Vikings were an occupying force in Ireland - I doubt they came bearing peace and love.

What are you on about? Ireland is the only country in the world that a popular vote has legalised gay marriage which might suggest we are not homophobic.

There is a forced agenda. For instance, James McClean gets nothing but abuse because of his refusal to wear the poppy (and for very good reasons if you knew where he came from).

by munkian Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:28 pm

I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy, you have two teams that were directly involved in the Wars wearing them. They are hardly marching down O'Connell street demanding recognition.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:34 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Sin é wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Sorry but it isnt. They are free to do whatever they want and show gratitude to whoever they want but to do it in a rugby game for me is odd.

2016 is also the anniversity of the easter rising. I would also have found it strange if this was celebrated at an Ireland rugby game even though the president of the IRFU was shot during the easter rising.

Im not offended that the IRFU didnt acknowledge it because they are a rugby organisation and not a war memorial service.

Do you honestly believe that? Do you not see the importance of Rugby players acknowledging the contribution made through Rugby.

I dont mean to sound disrespectful but I wouldnt place the Easter Rising in the Same category as two World Wars , but I apologise in advance if you do.

And there is the arrogance of it all - your dead is more important than our dead. All the poppy does is glorify war.

Do you not realise that more people lost their lives in the Two World Wars than in the Easter Rising? from countries all around the Globe not just Ireland.

So it just goes on volume of lives lost then.

Yet the only people who have got this poppy display disease are the British (and seemingly the Kiwis now) The French, Italians, Germans, Russians, Irish don't. Its just a money making racket for the British Legion or do they send the money to the Chinese, Japanese who lost millions of lives in their wars.

by aucklandlaurie Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:35 pm

munkian wrote:I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy, you have two teams that were directly involved in the Wars wearing them. They are hardly marching down O'Connell street demanding recognition.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

Those three Kiwis look good on the Irish jerseys though.

by SecretFly Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:35 pm

munkian wrote:I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

I don't think anyone here has suggested anyone has, munkian Wink

But the British media and Twitterland had plenty to say about the not-wearing of the Poppy from time to time.

by munkian Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:36 pm

So charities are a 'money making racket' ? Apart from NORAID obviously...

by beshocked Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:36 pm

How is a game of NZ vs Italy shoving it down your face?

No one is forcing you to wear a poppy though I personally think fighting in WW1 and WWII is more honourable than having an uprising whilst others were busy fighting and sitting out the 2nd world war.

Of course I am not denying the British army have done many regretful things but fighting in WWI and WWII was a necessary evil. They were costly in many ways but they have led to a more stable world, not for all of course but for many of us, especially on these boards.

Just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Britain does not mean that respecting the dead is wrong. Especially in WW1 and WWII.

by aucklandlaurie Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:37 pm

Sin é wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Sin é wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Sorry but it isnt. They are free to do whatever they want and show gratitude to whoever they want but to do it in a rugby game for me is odd.

2016 is also the anniversity of the easter rising. I would also have found it strange if this was celebrated at an Ireland rugby game even though the president of the IRFU was shot during the easter rising.

Im not offended that the IRFU didnt acknowledge it because they are a rugby organisation and not a war memorial service.

Do you honestly believe that? Do you not see the importance of Rugby players acknowledging the contribution made through Rugby.

I dont mean to sound disrespectful but I wouldnt place the Easter Rising in the Same category as two World Wars , but I apologise in advance if you do.

And there is the arrogance of it all - your dead is more important than our dead. All the poppy does is glorify war.

Do you not realise that more people lost their lives in the Two World Wars than in the Easter Rising? from countries all around the Globe not just Ireland.

So it just goes on volume of lives lost then.

Yet the only people who have got this poppy display disease are the British (and seemingly the Kiwis now) The French, Italians, Germans, Russians, Irish don't. Its just a money making racket for the British Legion or do they send the money to the Chinese, Japanese who lost millions of lives in their wars.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the British Legion gets $1 from the All Blacks wearing a poppy on their jerseys?

by munkian Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:38 pm

SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

I don't think anyone here has suggested anyone has, munkian

But the British media and Twitterland had plenty to say about the not-wearing of the Poppy from time to time.

Sin seems to have an agenda about it.

Media, be it social or other otherwise usually appeals to the lowest common denominator.

And if we didn't fight in WW1 then there may not have even been an Easter uprising.

by marty2086 Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:39 pm

beshocked wrote:How is a game of NZ vs Italy shoving it down your face?

No one is forcing you to wear a poppy though I personally think fighting in WW1 and WWII is more honourable than having an uprising whilst others were busy fighting and sitting out the 2nd world war.

Of course I am not denying the British army have done many regretful things but fighting in WWI and WWII was a necessary evil. They were costly in many ways but they have led to a more stable world, not for all of course but for many of us, especially on these boards.

Just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Britain does not mean that respecting the dead is wrong.

Maybe read up on your history, how the world sat back and allowed the Germans and others do their thing until it affected their own interests

There was no venturous intervention, it was pure self interest dressed up as honourable

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori Rolling Eyes

by SecretFly Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:41 pm

munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

I don't think anyone here has suggested anyone has, munkian

But the British media and Twitterland had plenty to say about the not-wearing of the Poppy from time to time.

Sin seems to have an agenda about it.

Media, be it social or other otherwise usually appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Well anyway. Everyone has a right to honour their dead. But that's a personal conviction not a command from on high.

I've always wanted to go to those WW1 graves in France to pay my respects to the boys who died in the dirt (all of them). Would like to get to Gallipoli too one day. Still haven't been able to get around to either. Will do one day.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:It's a people memorial. It remembers people who were sent to their death during a war.

As Cyril said earlier, my only criticism of it on and of is when the personal conviction of each and every player on the issue isn't respected. No player should be forced to wear one or bullied after declaring he couldn't wear one. Those that want to wear it should do so with pride. Those who can't should be left alone.

Spot on.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:41 pm

munkian wrote:I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy, you have two teams that were directly involved in the Wars wearing them. They are hardly marching down O'Connell street demanding recognition.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

Its a fact now that any Irish person who does anything publicly in the UK in this period of time has to wear a poppy (for example, I see Roy Keane wearing one now).

I would never wear a poppy personally as I would feel it was disrespecting my own tribe who were shot and killed by these very same World War 1 veterans that you are honouring. I wonder what people would think if Ireland rocked up to Twickers expecting a minutes silence to commemorate the dead of the 1916 rising? Effectively, that is what the Kiwis are doing in Italy this weekend.

by munkian Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:42 pm

German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

by munkian Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

I don't think anyone here has suggested anyone has, munkian

But the British media and Twitterland had plenty to say about the not-wearing of the Poppy from time to time.

Sin seems to have an agenda about it.

Media, be it social or other otherwise usually appeals to the lowest common denominator.
Well anyway. Everyone has a right to honour their dead. But that's a personal conviction not a command from on high.

I've always wanted to go to those WW1 graves in France to pay my respects to the boys who died in the dirt (all of them). Would like to get to Gallipoli too one day. Still haven't been able to get around to either. Will do one day.

Agreed. I've visited the Canadian war graves in Belgium and seen some of the battlefields, very humbling.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:45 pm

munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

I don't think anyone here has suggested anyone has, munkian

But the British media and Twitterland had plenty to say about the not-wearing of the Poppy from time to time.

Sin seems to have an agenda about it.

Media, be it social or other otherwise usually appeals to the lowest common denominator.

And if we didn't fight in WW1 then there may not have even been an Easter uprising.

I think most Irish people would prefer if there wasn't need for a rebellion in the first place Rolling Eyes

Thats the problem with the poppy - it glorifies war.

by beshocked Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:45 pm

marty2086 wrote:
beshocked wrote:How is a game of NZ vs Italy shoving it down your face?

No one is forcing you to wear a poppy though I personally think fighting in WW1 and WWII is more honourable than having an uprising whilst others were busy fighting and sitting out the 2nd world war.

Of course I am not denying the British army have done many regretful things but fighting in WWI and WWII was a necessary evil. They were costly in many ways but they have led to a more stable world, not for all of course but for many of us, especially on these boards.

Just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Britain does not mean that respecting the dead is wrong.

Maybe read up on your history, how the world sat back and allowed the Germans and others do their thing until it affected their own interests

There was no venturous intervention, it was pure self interest dressed up as honourable

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

I probably know more about history than you do.... but anyway....

Actually it was Republic of Ireland who sat back.... many other countries did not.

Yes you could say it was in their own interests but they still fought. Hitler had to be defeated.

More honourable than doing absolutely nothing. You can't exactly claim that Hitler was a nice bloke, honest and yet Republic of Ireland didn't oppose him.

by marty2086 Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:47 pm

munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Except they didn't, a rumour based on nothing more than the fact that German U-boats were spotted on numerous occasions off the Irish coast

by munkian Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:48 pm

Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

I don't think anyone here has suggested anyone has, munkian

But the British media and Twitterland had plenty to say about the not-wearing of the Poppy from time to time.

Sin seems to have an agenda about it.

Media, be it social or other otherwise usually appeals to the lowest common denominator.

And if we didn't fight in WW1 then there may not have even been an Easter uprising.

I think most Irish people would prefer if there wasn't need for a rebellion in the first place

Thats the problem with the poppy - it glorifies war.

But the Lilly is Ok to wear ?

Some hypocrisy here I feel.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:51 pm

munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Not true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

by mikey_dragon Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:53 pm

demosthenes wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
beshocked wrote:Respecting the sacrifice of brave soldiers is now excessive and garish?

Nothing wrong with showing respect to those who sacrificed so much for us all to have a better future.

Republic of Ireland was neutral during the 2nd world war and used the 1st world war as an opportunity to gain independence so I cannot say I have too much sympathy for your objection Gunsgerms.

Those who fought deserve respect. Those who stood on the sidelines? Not so much.

Why do they deserve respect during a rugby match in Rome? What has that got to do with anything?

Embroidering a poppy onto jerseys is ridiculous IMO.

They deserve respect all year every year. The Kiwi's haven't forgotten the ANZACs and the rest of the allies, but to show that they remember a poppy armband is worn. Italy were our enemies at that time of war so it goes to show what a respectful nation they are.

It may be worth noting that the poppy was originally conceived as a symbol of remembrance of those killed in WW1, when Italy and New Zealand (as part of the British Empire) were allies. And in my view its a personal choice, or one for organisations. I wear a poppy, but respect the views of people who don't. Although I don't have a lot of respect for people who try to attach the symbol to their particular political ends.

Yes correct, but it's both world wars that seem to get the most focus which is why I mentioned it.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:54 pm

munkian wrote:
Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:I don't think anyone on here has actually demanded that Irish people wear a poppy.

And again, lots of Irish have fought and died in the British army.

I don't think anyone here has suggested anyone has, munkian

But the British media and Twitterland had plenty to say about the not-wearing of the Poppy from time to time.

Sin seems to have an agenda about it.

Media, be it social or other otherwise usually appeals to the lowest common denominator.

And if we didn't fight in WW1 then there may not have even been an Easter uprising.

I think most Irish people would prefer if there wasn't need for a rebellion in the first place

Thats the problem with the poppy - it glorifies war.

But the Lilly is Ok to wear ?

Some hypocrisy here I feel.

Nope. We don't wear it (some republican fascists might though).

by mikey_dragon Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:55 pm

Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Not true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

A person loses all credibility when they use 'The Independent' as their source, ironic name as well seeing as they're sheep who focus on controlling their fellow sheep with BS. "Scientists say that after Brexit we're expecting snow in January."

by GunsGerms Thu 10 Nov 2016, 3:58 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Sorry but it isnt. They are free to do whatever they want and show gratitude to whoever they want but to do it in a rugby game for me is odd.

2016 is also the anniversity of the easter rising. I would also have found it strange if this was celebrated at an Ireland rugby game even though the president of the IRFU was shot during the easter rising.

Im not offended that the IRFU didnt acknowledge it because they are a rugby organisation and not a war memorial service.

Do you honestly believe that? Do you not see the importance of Rugby players acknowledging the contribution made through Rugby.

I dont mean to sound disrespectful but I wouldnt place the Easter Rising in the Same category as two World Wars , but I apologise in advance if you do.

Yes I honestly believe that. Why is it so hard to believe. When I want to honour the dead as I said I light a candle or go to a grave yard or do it with family. So yes I think doing it at a rugby match is odd.

Your comment re the Easter Rising to me just shows how wrapped up in emotion the issue is for you and therefore understandable that your arguments arent particularly logical. In any case you arent Irish so I dont expect you to care about the Easter rising and I wouldnt feel the need to celebrate it at a rugby match either.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:03 pm

beshocked wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
beshocked wrote:How is a game of NZ vs Italy shoving it down your face?

No one is forcing you to wear a poppy though I personally think fighting in WW1 and WWII is more honourable than having an uprising whilst others were busy fighting and sitting out the 2nd world war.

Of course I am not denying the British army have done many regretful things but fighting in WWI and WWII was a necessary evil. They were costly in many ways but they have led to a more stable world, not for all of course but for many of us, especially on these boards.

Just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Britain does not mean that respecting the dead is wrong.

Maybe read up on your history, how the world sat back and allowed the Germans and others do their thing until it affected their own interests

There was no venturous intervention, it was pure self interest dressed up as honourable

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

I probably know more about history than you do.... but anyway....

Actually it was Republic of Ireland who sat back.... many other countries did not.

Yes you could say it was in their own interests but they still fought. Hitler had to be defeated.

More honourable than doing absolutely nothing. You can't exactly claim that Hitler was a nice bloke, honest and yet Republic of Ireland didn't oppose him.

The reason why Ireland tried stayed neutral was because Churchill refused to protect Ireland which was in a very bad state as it was just emerging from a fight with the mighty British Empire included a civil war and then an economic war with England.

And he was right - Churchill didn't bother to protect Belfast when it was bombed by the Germans. It was left to Dublin to send ambulances and fire brigade north after the event.

Ireland's neutrality did more to protect England than any declaration of war against germany would have.

by marty2086 Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:07 pm

beshocked wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
beshocked wrote:How is a game of NZ vs Italy shoving it down your face?

No one is forcing you to wear a poppy though I personally think fighting in WW1 and WWII is more honourable than having an uprising whilst others were busy fighting and sitting out the 2nd world war.

Of course I am not denying the British army have done many regretful things but fighting in WWI and WWII was a necessary evil. They were costly in many ways but they have led to a more stable world, not for all of course but for many of us, especially on these boards.

Just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Britain does not mean that respecting the dead is wrong.

Maybe read up on your history, how the world sat back and allowed the Germans and others do their thing until it affected their own interests

There was no venturous intervention, it was pure self interest dressed up as honourable

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

I probably know more about history than you do.... but anyway....

Actually it was Republic of Ireland who sat back.... many other countries did not.

Yes you could say it was in their own interests but they still fought. Hitler had to be defeated.

More honourable than doing absolutely nothing. You can't exactly claim that Hitler was a nice bloke, honest and yet Republic of Ireland didn't oppose him.

You have no idea how much I know about history so now you are just bring arrogant and considering I said the world that would include Ireland

You say that those in Ireland were sitting back while the fighting was going on, if you were were clued in on your history you'd know there was a bit of skirmish in Ireland that wasn't exactly peaceful so it seems you are being condescending and failing to grasp the brutality of the British Empire that made the Germans look like a friendly bunch

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:09 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Not true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

A person loses all credibility when they use 'The Independent' as their source, ironic name as well seeing as they're sheep who focus on controlling their fellow sheep with BS. "Scientists say that after Brexit we're expecting snow in January."

1. Why would a British paper publish that article?
2. Why would a well respected and award winning English journalist Robert Fisk*, the son of a world war 1 veteran write it?

Fisk has received the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year seven times,[36] and twice won its "Reporter of the Year" award.[37] He also received Amnesty International UK Media Awards in 1992 for his report "The Other Side of the Hostage Saga",[citation needed] in 1998 for his reports from Algeria[38] and again in 2000 for his articles on the NATO air campaign against the FRY in 1999.[39]

by marty2086 Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:10 pm

Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Not true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

A person loses all credibility when they use 'The Independent' as their source, ironic name as well seeing as they're sheep who focus on controlling their fellow sheep with BS. "Scientists say that after Brexit we're expecting snow in January."

1. Why would a British paper publish that article?
2. Why would a well respected and award winning English journalist Robert Fisk*, the son of a world war 1 veteran write it?

Fisk has received the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year seven times,[36] and twice won its "Reporter of the Year" award.[37] He also received Amnesty International UK Media Awards in 1992 for his report "The Other Side of the Hostage Saga",[citation needed] in 1998 for his reports from Algeria[38] and again in 2000 for his articles on the NATO air campaign against the FRY in 1999.[39]

Sin some people are beyond reason

by SecretFly Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:19 pm

munkian wrote:

But the Lilly is Ok to wear ?

Who the hell wears the Lilly?

A plate of shamrock's your only man. Well watered and a little sprinkling of fertiliser.

by SecretFly Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:21 pm

Well Guns has had his way again, and this is heating up Cool

A lot of bullschidt of course, but that's to be expected when words have to be used quickly without thinking.

by beshocked Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
beshocked wrote:How is a game of NZ vs Italy shoving it down your face?

No one is forcing you to wear a poppy though I personally think fighting in WW1 and WWII is more honourable than having an uprising whilst others were busy fighting and sitting out the 2nd world war.

Of course I am not denying the British army have done many regretful things but fighting in WWI and WWII was a necessary evil. They were costly in many ways but they have led to a more stable world, not for all of course but for many of us, especially on these boards.

Just because you have a chip on your shoulder about Britain does not mean that respecting the dead is wrong.

Maybe read up on your history, how the world sat back and allowed the Germans and others do their thing until it affected their own interests

There was no venturous intervention, it was pure self interest dressed up as honourable

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

I probably know more about history than you do.... but anyway....

Actually it was Republic of Ireland who sat back.... many other countries did not.

Yes you could say it was in their own interests but they still fought. Hitler had to be defeated.

More honourable than doing absolutely nothing. You can't exactly claim that Hitler was a nice bloke, honest and yet Republic of Ireland didn't oppose him.

You have no idea how much I know about history so now you are just bring arrogant and considering I said the world that would include Ireland

You say that those in Ireland were sitting back while the fighting was going on, if you were were clued in on your history you'd know there was a bit of skirmish in Ireland that wasn't exactly peaceful so it seems you are being condescending and failing to grasp the brutality of the British Empire that made the Germans look like a friendly bunch

You are right I don't know how much of history you know but from what I've heard it seems very Irish centric.

I know the world doesn't revolve around Ireland or Britain for a start...

Personally I think it's arrogant to believe that the Easter Uprising is more important than the lives lost in WWI and WW2.

Perhaps to Ireland yes but in the world as whole no. That's the problem. You are inward looking. Focusing on Irish problems and having a chip on a shoulder about the British empire.

A skirmish is not comparable to a full blown war. The world wars were bigger than one country.

by Sin é Thu 10 Nov 2016, 4:26 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
munkian wrote:German U boats re-fuelled in Ireland whist sinking civilian shipping fleets.

No one comes out of this snowy white.

Not true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-german-u-boats-refuelled-in-ireland-surely-not-2356105.html

A person loses all credibility when they use 'The Independent' as their source, ironic name as well seeing as they're sheep who focus on controlling their fellow sheep with BS. "Scientists say that after Brexit we're expecting snow in January."

1. Why would a British paper publish that article?
2. Why would a well respected and award winning English journalist Robert Fisk*, the son of a world war 1 veteran write it?

Fisk has received the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year seven times,[36] and twice won its "Reporter of the Year" award.[37] He also received Amnesty International UK Media Awards in 1992 for his report "The Other Side of the Hostage Saga",[citation needed] in 1998 for his reports from Algeria[38] and again in 2000 for his articles on the NATO air campaign against the FRY in 1999.[39]

Sin some people are beyond reason

More of the ''only for us (British), you (Irish) would be speaking German'' Very Happy

This total lack of (arogant) self awareness is really amusing at this stage.

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