Ward vs Kovalev - Who've you got?

First topic message reminder :

I can’t let a fight as big as this weekend pass without a thread asking for folks thoughts. For me this is one of those odd fights that I am looking forward to enormously but suspect might well fail to ignite. I suspect intriguing rather than exciting may accurately describe it. Got to say since this has been announced I have been picking Ward. I rate both of them highly but just think Ward is a special talent, a lot more rounded and like Mayweather one with an exceptional ability to shut opponents down and neutralise them.
 
That being said Kovalev is no underdog or no hoper, this is a genuinely close fight, and one in which you can make an argument either way. Whilst people rightly wax lyrical about Kovalev’s power his boxing ability should not be underplayed, few since Jones have solved the numerous riddles Hopkins poses so effectively. Also he is a natural big hitting light heavy, something Ward has never faced, whilst his defence has always looked solid at super middle he is not completely unhittable. Froch had his moments where he was able to land, so one would assume Sergey will be able to do likewise. How Ward stands up to that is one of the big questions in this one.
 
Also whilst Ward is hardly an old man his career post Super six has had more stops and starts than me attempting to run a marathon. Being in the ring with Kovalev would not be a place I would want to be blowing off a dose of ring rust. Despite that, I still think Ward will be victorious, he is smart at tying up/holding on the inside and fast enough that he will score with plenty when the fight is at range. If the ref is pretty easy going when it comes to his holding inside, and thus far he has tended to get away with it, I think he will secure the win on points.
 
All of this almost certainly guarantees you can put your house on Kovalev, but irrespective of the outcome I cannot wait for this fight. A genuine talent moving up to take on the best the division above him has to offer, this is the sort of fight the sport needs more of.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

wheelchair1991 wrote:I scored the fight to Ward by one round, some boxing fans amaze me with the robbery talk, it was a very close fight would not have complained with either fighter winning by a round to be honest.  The real robbery was against Perez in the chief support bout.

Not easy for fans to view objectively.....When they like one fighter and dislike the other...

Some had Mcdonnell winning by robbery last week because he's Eddie's fighter....I had that close too..

Could have gone either way last night...If Kovo had won wouldn't have been an issue with me..

I didn't see one person score for McDonnell - that was a blatant robbery.

This was closer but Kovalev was the worthy winner of the two.

I'm not surprised that there's some dispute over the verdict. I am, however, surprised that anyone could call this fight a 'robbery' or 'home town decision.' Come on fellas, let's have a bit of perspective here.

I felt Ward won a close one. That doesn't mean I'd be totally perplexed by anyone giving Kovalev the nod, though. There were some close rounds, and in particularly I felt that the fourth, sixth and seventh were the really tough ones on which anyone's verdict might swing one way or another (for what it's worth, I gave two of them to Ward and one to Sergey). But after the seventh I really couldn't give Kovalev anything apart from the tenth.

Kovalev might have won some of his rounds, such as the first and second (obviously!) a little more impressively, but if there's no knockdown or absolute shellacking then a round you think someone won clearly and a round you think a person just about edged still only yield the same score; 10-9. Hence why a guy can perhaps not look that superior across the whole twelve rounds but still run out with the decision.

This might say something about the scoring system and maybe give rise to the idea that it needs changing, but that's an entirely separate issue aside from this fight. With the scoring system we use, it's entirely reasonable that anyone might have had either guy winning this by a couple of points, or have it dead even as Bellew and Nelson in the Sky studio did.

Even Mr. Rafael, who had it to Kovalev by three, had this to say to someone on his Twitter who suggested this was a 'crooked' decision: 'Stupid comment. Nothing shady. Just a close fight.'

Anyway, I had Kovalev winning the first, second (10-8), fourth and tenth, with Ward taking the rest albeit usually not as impressively or dominantly as Sergey took the first two. It was tough to score and I think both guys have the potential to improve on their performances big time in a rematch as neither were at their best and both made tactical mistakes, for me.

Ward actually had more success when he fought a little more bullishly and aggressively. I suspect he might have underestimated Kovalev's speed and felt that he could get the job done wholly on the outside and with countering - but it was when he was trying to counter that he actually got dropped. Kovalev on the other hand seemed to lose his composure and discipline a little as the fight wore on and abandoned his own neat boxing which was working well early doors.

Anyway, Kovalev showed enough to demonstrate that he's more than just a banger which everyone should have known already in any case, while Ward dispelled any doubts about his heart (I was very impressed by how he boxed round three straight after the nightmare of the second). I never really expected this to be a great fight, but while both men underperformed (in my opinion, at least) neither of them lose any of their lustre.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

wheelchair1991 wrote:I scored the fight to Ward by one round, some boxing fans amaze me with the robbery talk, it was a very close fight would not have complained with either fighter winning by a round to be honest.  The real robbery was against Perez in the chief support bout.

Ward is marmite..

Bonafide great now..

But early for talk of greatness. An immediate rematch would help.

88Chris05 wrote:I'm not surprised that there's some dispute over the verdict. I am, however, surprised that anyone could call this fight a 'robbery' or 'home town decision.' Come on fellas, let's have a bit of perspective here.

I felt Ward won a close one. That doesn't mean I'd be totally perplexed by anyone giving Kovalev the nod, though. There were some close rounds, and in particularly I felt that the fourth, sixth and seventh were the really tough ones on which anyone's verdict might swing one way or another (for what it's worth, I gave two of them to Ward and one to Sergey). But after the seventh I really couldn't give Kovalev anything apart from the tenth.

Kovalev might have won some of his rounds, such as the first and second (obviously!) a little more impressively, but if there's no knockdown or absolute shellacking then a round you think someone won clearly and a round you think a person just about edged still only yield the same score; 10-9. Hence why a guy can perhaps not look that superior across the whole twelve rounds but still run out with the decision.

This might say something about the scoring system and maybe give rise to the idea that it needs changing, but that's an entirely separate issue aside from this fight. With the scoring system we use, it's entirely reasonable that anyone might have had either guy winning this by a couple of points, or have it dead even as Bellew and Nelson in the Sky studio did.

Even Mr. Rafael, who had it to Kovalev by three, had this to say to someone on his Twitter who suggested this was a 'crooked' decision: 'Stupid comment. Nothing shady. Just a close fight.'

Anyway, I had Kovalev winning the first, second (10-8), fourth and tenth, with Ward taking the rest albeit usually not as impressively or dominantly as Sergey took the first two. It was tough to score and I think both guys have the potential to improve on their performances big time in a rematch as neither were at their best and both made tactical mistakes, for me.

Ward actually had more success when he fought a little more bullishly and aggressively. I suspect he might have underestimated Kovalev's speed and felt that he could get the job done wholly on the outside and with countering - but it was when he was trying to counter that he actually got dropped. Kovalev on the other hand seemed to lose his composure and discipline a little as the fight wore on and abandoned his own neat boxing which was working well early doors.

Anyway, Kovalev showed enough to demonstrate that he's more than just a banger which everyone should have known already in any case, while Ward dispelled any doubts about his heart (I was very impressed by how he boxed round three straight after the nightmare of the second). I never really expected this to be a great fight, but while both men underperformed (in my opinion, at least) neither of them lose any of their lustre.

You'd have to bend over backwards to give Ward that fight.

All three judges gave Ward the tenth - which was ludicrous. Right that and Kovalev wins (as he should have).

I think there was some overcompensating at play here. Kovalev controlled the first half of the fight so clearly, when Ward stopped the rot in the 7th, the judges seem to have judged doing better as doing the better of the two.

Haven't watched it yet. But most "Expert" and casual scorecards seem to have it for Sergey. Probably means a rematch ASAP. Sounds like a close fight though, the fact that everyone always screams robbery whenever a fight is close is a tad disappointing.

88Chris05 wrote:I'm not surprised that there's some dispute over the verdict. I am, however, surprised that anyone could call this fight a 'robbery' or 'home town decision.' Come on fellas, let's have a bit of perspective here.

I felt Ward won a close one. That doesn't mean I'd be totally perplexed by anyone giving Kovalev the nod, though. There were some close rounds, and in particularly I felt that the fourth, sixth and seventh were the really tough ones on which anyone's verdict might swing one way or another (for what it's worth, I gave two of them to Ward and one to Sergey). But after the seventh I really couldn't give Kovalev anything apart from the tenth.

Kovalev might have won some of his rounds, such as the first and second (obviously!) a little more impressively, but if there's no knockdown or absolute shellacking then a round you think someone won clearly and a round you think a person just about edged still only yield the same score; 10-9. Hence why a guy can perhaps not look that superior across the whole twelve rounds but still run out with the decision.

This might say something about the scoring system and maybe give rise to the idea that it needs changing, but that's an entirely separate issue aside from this fight. With the scoring system we use, it's entirely reasonable that anyone might have had either guy winning this by a couple of points, or have it dead even as Bellew and Nelson in the Sky studio did.

Even Mr. Rafael, who had it to Kovalev by three, had this to say to someone on his Twitter who suggested this was a 'crooked' decision: 'Stupid comment. Nothing shady. Just a close fight.'

Anyway, I had Kovalev winning the first, second (10-8), fourth and tenth, with Ward taking the rest albeit usually not as impressively or dominantly as Sergey took the first two. It was tough to score and I think both guys have the potential to improve on their performances big time in a rematch as neither were at their best and both made tactical mistakes, for me.

Ward actually had more success when he fought a little more bullishly and aggressively. I suspect he might have underestimated Kovalev's speed and felt that he could get the job done wholly on the outside and with countering - but it was when he was trying to counter that he actually got dropped. Kovalev on the other hand seemed to lose his composure and discipline a little as the fight wore on and abandoned his own neat boxing which was working well early doors.

Anyway, Kovalev showed enough to demonstrate that he's more than just a banger which everyone should have known already in any case, while Ward dispelled any doubts about his heart (I was very impressed by how he boxed round three straight after the nightmare of the second). I never really expected this to be a great fight, but while both men underperformed (in my opinion, at least) neither of them lose any of their lustre.

I don’t see how Ward won the last 2 rounds. Maybe it’s something with how as humans we view fights. Ward got better as the fight went on but wasn’t very good overall so perhaps his improvement means we lean towards the improving fighter even if it’s coming from a very low base. Ward was wobbled in about 4 rounds with jabs and pot shotted here and there. Some rounds were very close but for me Ward didn’t do enough to win all the scrappy ones, not even close. But suppose we all see it slightly different and it’s healthy for debate.

Haven't watched it yet. But most "Expert" and casual scorecards seem to have it for Sergey. Probably means a rematch ASAP. Sounds like a close fight though, the fact that everyone always screams robbery whenever a fight is close is a tad disappointing.

Pedro147 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:I'm not surprised that there's some dispute over the verdict. I am, however, surprised that anyone could call this fight a 'robbery' or 'home town decision.' Come on fellas, let's have a bit of perspective here.

I felt Ward won a close one. That doesn't mean I'd be totally perplexed by anyone giving Kovalev the nod, though. There were some close rounds, and in particularly I felt that the fourth, sixth and seventh were the really tough ones on which anyone's verdict might swing one way or another (for what it's worth, I gave two of them to Ward and one to Sergey). But after the seventh I really couldn't give Kovalev anything apart from the tenth.

Kovalev might have won some of his rounds, such as the first and second (obviously!) a little more impressively, but if there's no knockdown or absolute shellacking then a round you think someone won clearly and a round you think a person just about edged still only yield the same score; 10-9. Hence why a guy can perhaps not look that superior across the whole twelve rounds but still run out with the decision.

This might say something about the scoring system and maybe give rise to the idea that it needs changing, but that's an entirely separate issue aside from this fight. With the scoring system we use, it's entirely reasonable that anyone might have had either guy winning this by a couple of points, or have it dead even as Bellew and Nelson in the Sky studio did.

Even Mr. Rafael, who had it to Kovalev by three, had this to say to someone on his Twitter who suggested this was a 'crooked' decision: 'Stupid comment. Nothing shady. Just a close fight.'

Anyway, I had Kovalev winning the first, second (10-8), fourth and tenth, with Ward taking the rest albeit usually not as impressively or dominantly as Sergey took the first two. It was tough to score and I think both guys have the potential to improve on their performances big time in a rematch as neither were at their best and both made tactical mistakes, for me.

Ward actually had more success when he fought a little more bullishly and aggressively. I suspect he might have underestimated Kovalev's speed and felt that he could get the job done wholly on the outside and with countering - but it was when he was trying to counter that he actually got dropped. Kovalev on the other hand seemed to lose his composure and discipline a little as the fight wore on and abandoned his own neat boxing which was working well early doors.

Anyway, Kovalev showed enough to demonstrate that he's more than just a banger which everyone should have known already in any case, while Ward dispelled any doubts about his heart (I was very impressed by how he boxed round three straight after the nightmare of the second). I never really expected this to be a great fight, but while both men underperformed (in my opinion, at least) neither of them lose any of their lustre.

I don’t see how Ward won the last 2 rounds. Maybe it’s something with how as humans we view fights. Ward got better as the fight went on but wasn’t very good overall so perhaps his improvement means we lean towards the improving fighter even if it’s coming from a very low base. Ward was wobbled in about 4 rounds with jabs and pot shotted here and there. Some rounds were very close but for me Ward didn’t do enough to win all the scrappy ones, not even close. But suppose we all see it slightly different and it’s healthy for debate.

I think a lot of folk were looking to give Ward rounds. Either that or when Ward was fiddling through rounds 7-9 he was getting credit for being Ward (the supposed genius).

I thought round 11 was close and Kovalev took 10 and 12.

Commentary was also biased towards Ward (Kellerman was shocking).

kingraf wrote:Haven't watched it yet. But most "Expert" and casual scorecards seem to have it for Sergey. Probably means a rematch ASAP. Sounds like a close fight though, the fact that everyone always screams robbery whenever a fight is close is a tad disappointing.

"Expert" judge...

No such thing.

http://photo.boxingscene.com/uploads/ward-kovalev-compubox-punch-stats.jpg

Kovalev landed slight more punches in the fight, 126 vs 116. And if people are saying Ward’s work was better he only landed 61 power punches vs 78 for Kovalev. So I feel the argument that Ward’s work was better doesn’t really add up.

Ward only landed 36 punches in the first 6 rounds.

I may be in the minority but I think 'bending over backwards' is a stretch, Haz. On the contrary, I'd say your card which gave Ward only three rounds is probably the oddest I've seen yet, pal. Say that Sergey won, that's fair enough - but 117-111? That would suggest that Kovalev won the fight pretty easily and was largely dominant throughout, which I think is a more controversial statement than saying Ward edged a close one with room for dispute. Thankfully I know you're not the sort to take it too personally.

I agree about the tenth, though. The Sky commentary seemed to indicate that Ward bossed that round, but I thought it was Kovalev's clearly. True, had the judges all reversed that then Kovalev would still have had his belts, but at the same time they must have given Kovalev rounds which I, and the others who scored it for Ward, probably disagreed with as well. You're never going to get a fight where there's unanimity concerning each round at this kind of level with two fighters who are so evenly matched.

Look, I'm all for judges having to be accountable for their scoring and taking the heat when they come up with stuff that just doesn't compute, but I genuinely don't think that's even close to applying here, and neither do some reputable names which those crying 'robbery' here have used to bolster their own points in the past when they've agreed with them.

A close fight. Lots of scrappy rounds. At the mercy of the ten point must system and its little oddities. But just not a robbery in my opinion.

Pedro147 wrote:http://photo.boxingscene.com/uploads/ward-kovalev-compubox-punch-stats.jpg

Kovalev landed slight more punches in the fight, 126 vs 116. And if people are saying Ward’s work was better he only landed 61 power punches vs 78 for Kovalev. So I feel the argument that Ward’s work was better doesn’t really add up.

Ward only landed 36 punches in the first 6 rounds.

That must mean that Ward landed more in the final six rounds which would make sense. Fights are scored round by round not overall so overall punch stats become pointless.

The consensus seems to be that Kovalev fans are screaming robbery whilst everyone else has it close. Anyone who thinks that fight was in anyway easy to score is lying.

1 Ward 10-9
2 Kovalev 10-8
3 Kovalev 10-9
4 Kovalev 10-9 v close
5 Ward 10-9 again v close
6 Ward 10-9
7 draw 10-10 couldn't separate
8 Ward 10-9 V close
9 Ward 10-9
10 Kovalev 10-9
11 Ward 10-9
12 draw 10-10 again found too difficult to split

Ward wins 115-114

Good fight, no robbery, either man could have got the nod, rematch inevitable.

88Chris05 wrote:I may be in the minority but I think 'bending over backwards' is a stretch, Haz. On the contrary, I'd say your card which gave Ward only three rounds is probably the oddest I've seen yet, pal. Say that Sergey won, that's fair enough - but 117-111? That would suggest that Kovalev won the fight pretty easily and was largely dominant throughout, which I think is a more controversial statement than saying Ward edged a close one with room for dispute. Thankfully I know you're not the sort to take it too personally.  

I agree about the tenth, though. The Sky commentary seemed to indicate that Ward bossed that round, but I thought it was Kovalev's clearly. True, had the judges all reversed that then Kovalev would still have had his belts, but at the same time they must have given Kovalev rounds which I, and the others who scored it for Ward, probably disagreed with as well. You're never going to get a fight where there's unanimity concerning each round at this kind of level with two fighters who are so evenly matched.

Look, I'm all for judges having to be accountable for their scoring and taking the heat when they come up with stuff that just doesn't compute, but I genuinely don't think that's even close to applying here, and neither do some reputable names which those crying 'robbery' here have used to bolster their own points in the past when they've agreed with them.

A close fight. Lots of scrappy rounds. At the mercy of the ten point must system and its little oddities. But just not a robbery in my opinion.

A close fight, loads of scrappy rounds (all of which you gave to Ward). That's my point - you'd have to give everything close the same way (which is understandable from a Ward fan - and a fan of this type of negative performance in general). Passive aggressive "pal" comments or not.

I haven't said the word "robbery". I can understand three American judges giving close rounds to Ward before a pro-Ward crowd. But Kovalev was the worthy winner here.

Doug Fischer had it 117-110 and Lederman 116-111. Larry Merchant had it 9-3. I was with Harold (just gave the 5th or 6th even rather than for Ward). He was scraping his rounds out.

Stevenson must be laughing can get in another bum another easy million while these two fight their rematch

In close fights you tend to score all the close rounds to the same person, it's a case of what you prefer. I find it odd how someone can say Kovalev clearly won this yet score for Trinidad against De La Hoya in what was a clear robbery. Screams of scoring for who you like.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:In close fights you tend to score all the close rounds to the same person, it's a case of what you prefer. I find it odd how someone can say Kovalev clearly won this yet score for Trinidad against De La Hoya in what was a clear robbery. Screams of scoring for who you like.

Boxing scoring isn't subjective - another hackneyed platitude.

I had no dog in the fight last night - scored it for the man controlling most of the rounds with his power.

De la Hoya vs Trinidad is irrelevant to last night but pretty ridiculous how that's a robbery and this isn't (neither were in my book).

No, Haz. I've already explained that I didn't give all the very close or scrappy rounds to Ward. If I did, I'd have ended up with something like 117-110 in his favour.

You seem to be indicating that I might have scored the way I did because I'm a Ward fan. Am I not a Kovalev fan as well? Didn't I say beforehand in my prediction that I was hoping for a Kovalev win? I wasn't aware that my posting history has been more pro-Ward than pro-Kovalev in the past, personally, but that's besides the point I guess.

Saying stuff like, 'I can understand three American judges giving close rounds to Ward before a pro-Ward crowd' is a straw man argument. The accusation implicit is that they had an extra motive to score in Ward's favour - but what was the motive for posters on here, thousands of miles away, to score in favour of Ward? What was the motive of someone like Paul Smith in a TV studio, or the likes of Macklin and Malignaggi, just two among hundreds at ringside?

Is it because they likewise had a sneaky motive for doing so as well? Or is it simply that they happened to see a close fight in favour of one guy over the other?

I've been guilty of it a little in the past, I'll admit, but at the end of the day trying to explain away cards that disagree with yours by suggesting that the guy who compiled it got suckered in by hype, deliberately tried to overcompensate, was consciously seeking to favour a certain fighter etc. is just a load of hot air. Nobody on here is any more qualified to judge a fight than the next man, and nobody can say with certainty than they're any more immune to subconscious preferences towards style than the next guy, either.

Some 'experts' might disagree with me, fine. I could easily point out all the times those said experts have produced cards which have been largely derided by most fans and observers, such as Lederman's risible 116-112 card in favour of Pacquiao in his third fight with Marquez. Everyone thinks they know better than the other bloke, but the reality is we seldom do when it comes to judging fights of this nature. We've got an opinion, and that's it.

88Chris05 wrote:No, Haz. I've already explained that I didn't give all the very close or scrappy rounds to Ward. If I did, I'd have ended up with something like 117-110 in his favour.

You seem to be indicating that I might have scored the way I did because I'm a Ward fan. Am I not a Kovalev fan as well? Didn't I say beforehand in my prediction that I was hoping for a Kovalev win? I wasn't aware that my posting history has been more pro-Ward than pro-Kovalev in the past, personally, but that's besides the point I guess.

Saying stuff like, 'I can understand three American judges giving close rounds to Ward before a pro-Ward crowd' is a straw man argument. The accusation implicit is that they had an extra motive to score in Ward's favour - but what was the motive for posters on here, thousands of miles away, to score in favour of Ward? What was the motive of someone like Paul Smith in a TV studio, or the likes of Macklin and Malignaggi, just two among hundreds at ringside?

Is it because they likewise had a sneaky motive for doing so as well? Or is it simply that they happened to see a close fight in favour of one guy over the other?

I've been guilty of it a little in the past, I'll admit, but at the end of the day trying to explain away cards that disagree with yours by suggesting that the guy who compiled it got suckered in by hype, deliberately tried to overcompensate, was consciously seeking to favour a certain fighter etc. is just a load of hot air. Nobody on here is any more qualified to judge a fight than the next man, and nobody can say with certainty than they're any more immune to subconscious preferences towards style than the next guy, either.

Some 'experts' might disagree with me, fine. I could easily point out all the times those said experts have produced cards which have been largely derided by most fans and observers, such as Lederman's risible 116-112 card in favour of Pacquiao in his third fight with Marquez. Everyone thinks they know better than the other bloke, but the reality is we seldom do when it comes to judging fights of this nature. We've got an opinion, and that's it.

Everyone has an opinion. Cool. But not everyone can score a fight. This wasn't an "open to interpretation" affair. It was clear who was in control for much of the fight - as much as Ward slowed it all down over the second half.

I think it's more what we look for

I fully agree with haz as do many online

Others agree with Chris Adam etc

What I will say even if you had ward winning that was not a p4p #1 performance

Holding and hitting one punch and grab

Skills wise I was very disappointed in ward

I think I'm still raging at what I feel was an unjust decision

Even if ward won those rounds he Fiddled let like haz said Using every trick in the book

If we talk about boxing skill kovalev was the one displaying them

I just don't like that style so I guess I don't appreciate it

Mayweather is a way way way better boxer and is way better to Watch

Grabbing someone and holding their arm.while mauling them is actually illegal

It's always open to interpretation and boxing scoring is subjective hence why there is rarely agreement. I mentioned the Trinidad and Development la Hoya fight as it's an example of your own inability to score a fight properly.

BoxingFan88 wrote:I think it's more what we look for

I fully agree with haz as do many online

Others agree with Chris Adam etc

What I will say even if you had ward winning that was not a p4p #1 performance

Holding and hitting one punch and grab

Skills wise I was very disappointed in ward

Lot of talk of him having no right hand (did he have surgery on it)? He didn't look the same man we saw dominate '68.

Saying that, Kovalev was the best he'd been in with and is very good.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's always open to interpretation and boxing scoring is subjective hence why there is rarely agreement. I mentioned the Trinidad and Development la Hoya fight as it's an example of your own inability to score a fight properly.

Trinidad was better as he won more rounds.

Hence why I don't care for your opinion on scoring Haz.

I don't mind this fight. I like both guys. Very rarely do two fighters go into a fight nowadays and neither of them are "exposed" at the end of the fight. Nobody became a bum overnight. Two all time greats went in and it was as close as you could hope for.

Having just watched it, I must say there are A LOT of close rounds. Due to the knockdown a draw obviously wasn't gonna be the result but damn it was tight.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Hence why I don't care for your opinion on scoring Haz.

No one cares for your opinion on anything old bean.

So far, this has been an excellent thread, I've enjoyed reading all the comments since the fight took place.

Rarely do I get excited about watching a 12 round fight that I already know how the decision went. But this weekend I will be really looking forward to watching the replay of this fight. I'll be scoring every round to see what decision I come up with.

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Hence why I don't care for your opinion on scoring Haz.

No one cares for your opinion on anything old bean.

Careful not to stray in to 'passive aggressive' territory there, Haz.

88Chris05 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Hence why I don't care for your opinion on scoring Haz.

No one cares for your opinion on anything old bean.

Careful not to stray in to 'passive aggressive' territory there, Haz.

It's catching, pal!

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:I may be in the minority but I think 'bending over backwards' is a stretch, Haz. On the contrary, I'd say your card which gave Ward only three rounds is probably the oddest I've seen yet, pal. Say that Sergey won, that's fair enough - but 117-111? That would suggest that Kovalev won the fight pretty easily and was largely dominant throughout, which I think is a more controversial statement than saying Ward edged a close one with room for dispute. Thankfully I know you're not the sort to take it too personally.  

I agree about the tenth, though. The Sky commentary seemed to indicate that Ward bossed that round, but I thought it was Kovalev's clearly. True, had the judges all reversed that then Kovalev would still have had his belts, but at the same time they must have given Kovalev rounds which I, and the others who scored it for Ward, probably disagreed with as well. You're never going to get a fight where there's unanimity concerning each round at this kind of level with two fighters who are so evenly matched.

Look, I'm all for judges having to be accountable for their scoring and taking the heat when they come up with stuff that just doesn't compute, but I genuinely don't think that's even close to applying here, and neither do some reputable names which those crying 'robbery' here have used to bolster their own points in the past when they've agreed with them.

A close fight. Lots of scrappy rounds. At the mercy of the ten point must system and its little oddities. But just not a robbery in my opinion.

A close fight, loads of scrappy rounds (all of which you gave to Ward). That's my point - you'd have to give everything close the same way (which is understandable from a Ward fan - and a fan of this type of negative performance in general). Passive aggressive "pal" comments or not.

I haven't said the word "robbery". I can understand three American judges giving close rounds to Ward before a pro-Ward crowd. But Kovalev was the worthy winner here.

Doug Fischer had it 117-110 and Lederman 116-111. Larry Merchant had it 9-3. I was with Harold (just gave the 5th or 6th even rather than for Ward). He was scraping his rounds out.

Passive aggressive winker

The point is beyond you clearly Haz but everyone scores a fight how they think it should be scored. I'm more likely to take notice of Milky and Chris than you based on their objectivity something you lack.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The point is beyond you clearly Haz but everyone scores a fight how they think it should be scored. I'm more likely to take notice of Milky and Chris than you based on their objectivity something you lack.

As long as you're taking notice of someone!

One day you'll be able to form opinions of your own!

milkyboy wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:I may be in the minority but I think 'bending over backwards' is a stretch, Haz. On the contrary, I'd say your card which gave Ward only three rounds is probably the oddest I've seen yet, pal. Say that Sergey won, that's fair enough - but 117-111? That would suggest that Kovalev won the fight pretty easily and was largely dominant throughout, which I think is a more controversial statement than saying Ward edged a close one with room for dispute. Thankfully I know you're not the sort to take it too personally.  

I agree about the tenth, though. The Sky commentary seemed to indicate that Ward bossed that round, but I thought it was Kovalev's clearly. True, had the judges all reversed that then Kovalev would still have had his belts, but at the same time they must have given Kovalev rounds which I, and the others who scored it for Ward, probably disagreed with as well. You're never going to get a fight where there's unanimity concerning each round at this kind of level with two fighters who are so evenly matched.

Look, I'm all for judges having to be accountable for their scoring and taking the heat when they come up with stuff that just doesn't compute, but I genuinely don't think that's even close to applying here, and neither do some reputable names which those crying 'robbery' here have used to bolster their own points in the past when they've agreed with them.

A close fight. Lots of scrappy rounds. At the mercy of the ten point must system and its little oddities. But just not a robbery in my opinion.

A close fight, loads of scrappy rounds (all of which you gave to Ward). That's my point - you'd have to give everything close the same way (which is understandable from a Ward fan - and a fan of this type of negative performance in general). Passive aggressive "pal" comments or not.

I haven't said the word "robbery". I can understand three American judges giving close rounds to Ward before a pro-Ward crowd. But Kovalev was the worthy winner here.

Doug Fischer had it 117-110 and Lederman 116-111. Larry Merchant had it 9-3. I was with Harold (just gave the 5th or 6th even rather than for Ward). He was scraping his rounds out.

Passive aggressive winker

How did you have it Milky? 114-113 Ward?

I think both sides have valid arguments. There's a tendency to over-credit someone when they turn the tide, there's also a tendency to look at the fight as a whole rather than round by round.

Re the 10 pt must, the fight was like macklin sturm... an oft-cited robbery that wasn't. Macklin won the first half of the fight easily. Sturm turned it around and won pretty much the entire second half less easily. Macklin the better fighter overall but round by round it was really tight.

In this one,  I gave Ward 3&5. Missed most of the 6th and 7th which is why I haven't given my card. Thought Ward nicked 8 &9 and that there wasn't much in the last 3. I think it's tough in kovalev to give all of them to Ward, so depending on my scoring of 6 and 7, I feel I'd probably having to give the benefit in the close ones to Ward to get him winning. So I think kovalev was unlucky.

In a sport full of robberies it wasn't one though. It's a hagler Leonard... controversial but not a robbery.

I think Ward is a smug Muppet haz and would be perfectly happy to have seen kovalev spark him. I try to call what I see irresoective of personal preferences.

Had it to Ward by 1 or 2 (can't find my scorecard now) but wouldn't have complained if the nod would have gone to Kov. Thought he started really well but faded in the later rounds and looked a bit clueless when he hit a clean shot and Ward didn't tumble.

Will be looking forward to the rematch but can see another very close bout.

I don't mind Ward overly. I respect his willingness to fight his main rivals (not a fan of the Oakland, tune-up, negative style thing).

Not really a fan of Krusher either. He's a sinister bugger.

I think the ATG talk is a bit premature (greatness even). Hoping the rematch is next but fail to see what Kovalev does to improve on that.

Haz nobody is perfect at scoring fights. You think Hagler won (many do, more don't) and are you saying you think Trinidad beat Oscar?

Point being, close fights are hard to score. You can't tell someone they can't judge a fight based on this.

Lots of rounds were close, obviously Sergey dominated the earlier rounds. If someone sees Ward nicking rounds (like I did) and you see Sergey doing the same, it's all good.

Close fights are fun to debate and I hope there is a rematch.

Certainly warrants one.

AdamT wrote:Haz nobody is perfect at scoring fights. You think Hagler won (many do, more don't) and are you saying you think Trinidad beat Oscar?

Point being, close fights are hard to score. You can't tell someone they can't judge a fight based on this.

Lots of rounds were close, obviously Sergey dominated the earlier rounds. If someone sees Ward nicking rounds (like I did) and you see Sergey doing the same, it's all good.

Close fights are fun to debate and I hope there is a rematch.

Certainly warrants one.

I was referring to the likes of Paul Smith. Sky were as biased as Kellerman last night. Malignaggi had Ward a few rounds up after six!

I agree the second half of the fight was close. The first half wasn't, though. I'm not crying robbery but Kovalev won that fight. It wasn't a fight that could have gone either way (as some other fights - Oscar vs Tito included - could have).

Sky were biased. Won't deny that and I have no problems with people thinking Kovalev won.

Will watch I again tomorrow.

My dad had it 9-3 Kovalev.

I respect Ward for taking the fight. I respect him for finding a way back into it. He looked like he was out of his depth in the first two. It's the sign of a great fighter to adapt to what's in front of him.

I've never been a fan of the grappling and I think we've seen his best. He's lost an edge since going to light heavy I feel. Dicked his prime years in contract disputes, but put him in the ring and there's a lot to admire (if not always to enjoy)

I really respect Kovalev for taking the fight, more so than Ward. As well as fighting an American, in America with American judges and an American ref, I also read that he got paid less than Ward, though that could change depending on the PPV numbers. Still, talk about taking a chance.

I think this proves that Ward is a very good, not quite great fighter, as of now.

Still a level behind Manny, Floyd and Jones.

Very good but not great. I agree with you Adam. Damn, that sent a chill down my spine.

Atila wrote:I really respect Kovalev for taking the fight, more so than Ward. As well as fighting an American, in America with American judges and an American ref, I also read that he got paid less than Ward, though that could change depending on the PPV numbers. Still, talk about taking a chance.

Ahh, so you respect him following the money!

No, agree respect due to both. Ward probably more to lose for me in terms of standing/reputation, but you could argue the toss on that. In today's game any fighter fighting the biggest challenge out there deserves credit.

He is potentially a great. Beats kov in a rematch and defends his belt a few times, he will get there.

Define great? I wouldn't call Calzaghe an Atg, though he is a Brit one.

Atila you would do well to agree with the King. Ha

AdamT wrote:Sky were biased. Won't deny that and I have no problems with people thinking Kovalev won.

Will watch I again tomorrow.

My dad had it 9-3 Kovalev.

Good lad. He knows what he's watching.

Atila wrote:I really respect Kovalev for taking the fight, more so than Ward. As well as fighting an American, in America with American judges and an American ref, I also read that he got paid less than Ward, though that could change depending on the PPV numbers. Still, talk about taking a chance.

Think he cleared $2m before management fees etc. are deducted. You'd expect him to have earned a bit more.

It's a shame because had the judges got it right, he would have been a star.

The inevitable question. Can GGG beat Ward at 170?

I still back the naturally bigger man, but if Ward wins a rematch, I would love to see them fight.

AdamT wrote:The inevitable question. Can GGG beat Ward at 170?

I still back the naturally bigger man, but if Ward wins a rematch, I would love to see them fight.

Who cares about that?

Kovalev vs Golovkin is the fight. That would be a bloodbath.