750 minutes

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750 minutes.

That is the incredible amount of time Johnny Gray has played for Scotland without missing a tackle.

There is no real point to this post apart from getting that stat out there. According to that time scale the last time he missed a tackle in an international test match was in the 2015 Rugby world cup. It is a staggering achievement.

In a thoroughly saturated talent pool in the second row is Johnny Gray one of (if not) the best second rows in the Northern hemisphere?

If you want another interesting read check out his stats for the Australia game compared to Alun Wyn Jones in the Argentina game:

http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/analysis-mapping-the-involvements-of-jonny-gray-and-alun-wyn-jones-74309

Odd seeing people say that AWJ shouldn't travel, truly inspirational performances off the back of his father dying tells you the caliber of the man, and with such a huge amount of talent at lock, he is the only one with Lions/extensive experience.

I think AWJ will travel, and may well captain the side.

That said, Gray and Itoje have been nothing short of world class recently, but both will require big 6N tournaments to travel alongside AWJ, who time and time again has proved himself to Gatland!

Ridiculous strength at lock, makes other positions look silly.

Still the issue is that Gatland knows the Welsh players very well. Probably will take something out of this world for some to travel.

I know Itoje hasn't played much at 6 - but does the number on his back really make much difference? He is an all-court player and his skill set could easily adapt to playing on the blindside. If we take it as a given that Itoje plays (and I think most of us agree that he will), then I think we need to make use of the depth we have at lock and utilise him at 6, where we are comparatively weaker.

4. Launchbury
5. Gray
6. Itoje
7. O'Brien
8. Billy V

Looks pretty good to me.

So we're advocating playing a relatively new international in a position they've barely played at that level, surrounded by an unfamiliar team, against the best team in the world (tm & c All Blacks 2008-2016) in their own backyard?

Itoje's good, but that, to me, is asking too much.

Poorfour wrote:So we're advocating playing a relatively new international in a position they've barely played at that level, surrounded by an unfamiliar team, against the best team in the world (tm & c All Blacks 2008-2016) in their own backyard?

Itoje's good, but that, to me, is asking too much.

The All Blacks and their record will still be there no matter who you pick, and unless you go for tried and tested combinations everybody will be unfamiliar. No matter how you spin it, the Lions are massively up against it - I advocate getting the best players on the park, to do that I think we should take advantage of Itoje's flexibility. Apart from the very obvious difference at set-piece, you could put a 6 on Itoje's back and I don't think there would be much difference between what he does now.

EST wrote:Apart from the very obvious difference at set-piece, you could put a 6 on Itoje's back and I don't think there would be much difference between what he does now.  

And therein lies the problem. A lock who plays like a 6 is not a 6. The roles are different and have different demands. Itoje may be good enough to do that at club level, or even at international level against many teams. But the ABs will find out any weaknesses in his game and exploit them.

I understand the roles are different, but not sufficiently so to be insurmountable, especially in light of the way that Itoje plays. I wouldn't advocate Jonny Gray or Kruis move.

Move Itoje to 6 and it allows the lions to take advantage of their wealth at second row. Who is putting their hand up at 6? Robshaw and Stander are the front runners in my mind, both good players but neither offer what Itoje does.

Robshaw offers exactly what Itoje doesn't, positional perfection, he's always in the right place at the right time and understands the game perfectly, he's not flashy but will make almost everyone of his tackles.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Robshaw offers exactly what Itoje doesn't, positional perfection, he's always in the right place at the right time and understands the game perfectly, he's not flashy but will make almost everyone of his tackles.

I don't doubt Robshaw is a very good player, the way he has bounced back from the WC is nothing short of astounding really. I wouldn't grumble if he were picked to start the first test, but I think Itoje offers more.

He offers more flash i'll agree but against the AB's you need players who understand the demands of their position inside and out, you can't force forwards into positions they're not used to and expect it to work.

EST wrote:Move Itoje to 6 and it allows the lions to take advantage of their wealth at second row.  Who is putting their hand up at 6?  Robshaw and Stander are the front runners in my mind, both good players but neither offer what Itoje does.  

No, they don't. They offer something different. The question is whether by excluding one of them in favour of Itoje you lose more or less than by excluding one of the other locks in favour of Itoje. It's possible, given the importance of Whitelock and Retallick to the AB's game, that having an extra lock on the pitch actually is a good idea. But I think it's more likely that he wouldn't be able to maintain the work rate required of an international 6 (which is considerably higher than that of a lock - The Roar calculated that Robshaw has around 30% more "involvements" per game than Launchbury, who I think most people would agree is one of the hardest working locks) for 80 minutes.

Poorfour wrote:

EST wrote:Move Itoje to 6 and it allows the lions to take advantage of their wealth at second row.  Who is putting their hand up at 6?  Robshaw and Stander are the front runners in my mind, both good players but neither offer what Itoje does.  

No, they don't. They offer something different. The question is whether by excluding one of them in favour of Itoje you lose more or less than by excluding one of the other locks in favour of Itoje. It's possible, given the importance of Whitelock and Retallick to the AB's game, that having an extra lock on the pitch actually is a good idea. But I think it's more likely that he wouldn't be able to maintain the work rate required of an international 6 (which is considerably higher than that of a lock - The Roar calculated that Robshaw has around 30% more "involvements" per game than Launchbury, who I think most people would agree is one of the hardest working locks) for 80 minutes.

Those greater 'involvements' are a result of structural positional differences, and not exclusively because of differences in work rate between players. If Itoje played at 6, I would expect his 'involvements' would go up commensurately, and I would be quite comfortable that he would have the engine to do so. You are right that it comes down to a benefit analysis, I happen to think the Lions are fortunate to have Itojes flexibility, which allows us to utilise the depth in the engine room, and get more of our best players influencing the game.

EST wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

EST wrote:Move Itoje to 6 and it allows the lions to take advantage of their wealth at second row.  Who is putting their hand up at 6?  Robshaw and Stander are the front runners in my mind, both good players but neither offer what Itoje does.  

No, they don't. They offer something different. The question is whether by excluding one of them in favour of Itoje you lose more or less than by excluding one of the other locks in favour of Itoje. It's possible, given the importance of Whitelock and Retallick to the AB's game, that having an extra lock on the pitch actually is a good idea. But I think it's more likely that he wouldn't be able to maintain the work rate required of an international 6 (which is considerably higher than that of a lock - The Roar calculated that Robshaw has around 30% more "involvements" per game than Launchbury, who I think most people would agree is one of the hardest working locks) for 80 minutes.

Those greater 'involvements' are a result of structural positional differences, and not exclusively because of differences in work rate between players.  If Itoje played at 6, I would expect his 'involvements' would go up commensurately, and I would be quite comfortable that he would have the engine to do so.  You are right that it comes down to a benefit analysis, I happen to think the Lions are fortunate to have Itojes flexibility, which allows us to utilise the depth in the engine room, and get more of our best players influencing the game.  

I saw a great writeup a few weeks back from Ben Kay talking about the demands on a modern lock - and how the set piece leaves you knackered let alone the open play. One thing I do remember was him talking about a game which went to uncontested scrums - where he was subsequently praised for his contribution in the loose.

At the moment it seems there is no limit to what Itoje can achieve (when he's actually playing). He does have a great engine, and not working so hard in scrums etc would mean more energy for involvement elsewhere. Robshaw is a rare beast in the amount of work he does and would not let anyone down if he got to the end of the season in one piece, but Itoje would manage fine at 6 (causing plenty of problems too). I am looking forward to the potential 6N showdown where we can see how Stander matches up against the England guys - because he is the other name that keeps on coming up in discussions over 6.

Yeah, Stander has really made his mark on the international scene. He is a big physical beast, and is more abrasive than ʀobshaw - but perhaps doesn't possess the same work rateʔ ɪ don't know if the stats back up that assertion.

The other player who ɪ really rate, and who ɪ think has the potential to force his way onto the plane if he can keep fit through the end of the season, is ɪain ʜenderson. Being a Scottish fan, this might been seen as sacrilege, but ɪ think he offers close to what Jonny ɢray does, but is a slightly more dynamic athlete. On Jonny ɢray, as amazing as his work rate is, my one criticism is that he sometimes is quite lateral when he carries ball. ʜenderson, being quicker and with better footwork, carries ball through traffic better, in my opinion.

EST wrote:Yeah, Stander has really made his mark on the international scene.  He is a big physical beast, and is more abrasive than ʀobshaw - but perhaps doesn't possess the same work rateʔ  ɪ don't know if the stats back up that assertion.

The other player who ɪ really rate, and who ɪ think has the potential to force his way onto the plane if he can keep fit through the end of the season, is ɪain ʜenderson.  Being a Scottish fan, this might been seen as sacrilege, but ɪ think he offers close to what Jonny ɢray does, but is a slightly more dynamic athlete.  On Jonny ɢray, as amazing as his work rate is, my one criticism is that he sometimes is quite lateral when he carries ball. ʜenderson, being quicker and with better footwork, carries ball through traffic better, in my opinion.

Henderson has had a rough time with injuries.

lostinwales wrote:

EST wrote:Yeah, Stander has really made his mark on the international scene.  He is a big physical beast, and is more abrasive than ʀobshaw - but perhaps doesn't possess the same work rateʔ  ɪ don't know if the stats back up that assertion.

The other player who ɪ really rate, and who ɪ think has the potential to force his way onto the plane if he can keep fit through the end of the season, is ɪain ʜenderson.  Being a Scottish fan, this might been seen as sacrilege, but ɪ think he offers close to what Jonny ɢray does, but is a slightly more dynamic athlete.  On Jonny ɢray, as amazing as his work rate is, my one criticism is that he sometimes is quite lateral when he carries ball. ʜenderson, being quicker and with better footwork, carries ball through traffic better, in my opinion.

Henderson has had a rough time with injuries.

Yeah, he seems to be perma-crocked. Absolutely cracking player though.

EST wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

EST wrote:Yeah, Stander has really made his mark on the international scene.  He is a big physical beast, and is more abrasive than ʀobshaw - but perhaps doesn't possess the same work rateʔ  ɪ don't know if the stats back up that assertion.

The other player who ɪ really rate, and who ɪ think has the potential to force his way onto the plane if he can keep fit through the end of the season, is ɪain ʜenderson.  Being a Scottish fan, this might been seen as sacrilege, but ɪ think he offers close to what Jonny ɢray does, but is a slightly more dynamic athlete.  On Jonny ɢray, as amazing as his work rate is, my one criticism is that he sometimes is quite lateral when he carries ball. ʜenderson, being quicker and with better footwork, carries ball through traffic better, in my opinion.

Henderson has had a rough time with injuries.

Yeah, he seems to be perma-crocked.  Absolutely cracking player though.

Ireland do seem well stocked at 6. Must be a wake up call for all involved when you get POM going from captain material to fringe player.