Northampton Saints - Is It Time For Change At The Top

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Saints seem to have been on the decline for the last two to three years, I know they have won a AP title but I suspect that that was just a bad year all round for AP clubs, they haven't looked convincing for at least three years. This season is the worst since they were relegated, clueless, headless chickens running around not knowing what the rest are doing, no cohesion, no tactical plan; that they can make work anyway.

Despite bringing in a host of new players, from memory; Beasley, Bennett, Brookes, Estelles, Hanrahan, Groom, Gibson, Kessel, Ma'afu, Picamoles, Ratuniyarawa, Tuala, Tuitavake only Brookes and Picamoles have established themselves as first choice, Gibson is an exception with Wood, Harrison, Clark etc. to contest the 6/7 shirt. Ma'afu and Tuala get bench spots along with Groom. They are spending fortunes on wages for players that are not getting any game time, why? Estelles was playing for Argentina on Saturday, but cant make the Saints bench, never mind the team.

Groom is well ahead of Dickson these days, but still plays second fiddle, Burrell is a much better 13 than 12 and ahead of Pisi, PH is a much better 12 than Burrell, but we still get the old formation of Burrell and Pisi.

Long term injuries to Clark, Stephenson, Foden haven't helped but they are not at the heart of the problem.

The management seems to have a mistrust of youth, Mallinder junior seems to have a problem getting into the side, with his father preferring the stodge of Burrell and Pisi, despite the world and his dog believing PH is the next best thing to sliced bread. Where is the next Alex Waller, Prince Harry, Teimana Harrison coming from, despite massive injury problems and international call ups we still do not play any of the younger Senior Academy players, preferring to play Patterson at 6 to say Bennett or Ludlam. The lack of energy and cohesion showed and we got what we deserved against the 3rd worst side in the premiership ( Bristol, then us on that performance and Falcons). Is it that the younger players just are just not good enough, if not, why do we retain them. If they are but have yet to fulfil their promise, put the money wasted on players that do not play into developing the youth into the players they believe them capable of being. Players like Alex Moon are potential monsters for Saints in the future, but do not seem to be getting the development chances they deserve

Since the sacking of King, the backs have looked lost and clueless, why sack someone you have no replacement for, sounds very much like JM is trying to shift the blame away from where it belongs. He picks the sides and directs how he wants the game to be played and his thinking has been muddled at best, very much on the lines of Bomber Lancaster I think he has taken the side as far as he can. The game he wants to play is old fashioned, the modern game has moved on and he has failed to move with it; see Eddie Jones England or Ireland's style of play.

The thing I find ridiculous is that Saints used to play that AB style game, the forwards were streets ahead of most sides when it came to ball handling skills, all players fitted into the line seamlessly. The likes of the Waller brothers, Lawes, Day, Dickinson, Haywood, all could match the backs on ball handling and still do the hard grind in the pack. We just don't use these skills anymore.

Am I the only one who feels like this?

doctor_grey wrote:Saints still look poopie.

Judging by the amount of balls they are dropping, wet and slippery poopie.

The basics that they used to pride themselves on seem to have been lost somewhere along the line.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Saints still look poopie.

Judging by the amount of balls they are dropping, wet and slippery poopie.

The basics that they used to pride themselves on seem to have been lost somewhere along the line.

That's a great point. It is really the basics which are the problem. Ho does that happen to seasoned professionals?

I suspect that rather than the basic skills suddenly letting them down it is more a case of them never having been good enough in the first place to withstand execution under pressure. So we see teams that execute their skills really well when they are on the front foot, or in teh lead, but then struggle when on the back foot, chasing a game or in inclement weather.

We see this all the time at WR.

LondonTiger wrote:I suspect that rather than the basic skills suddenly letting them down it is more a case of them never having been good enough in the first place to withstand execution under pressure. So we see teams that execute their skills really well when they are on the front foot, or in teh lead, but then struggle when on the back foot, chasing a game or in inclement weather.

We see this all the time at WR.

But why not when playing Saints? C'mon man, we need the help.

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I suspect that rather than the basic skills suddenly letting them down it is more a case of them never having been good enough in the first place to withstand execution under pressure. So we see teams that execute their skills really well when they are on the front foot, or in teh lead, but then struggle when on the back foot, chasing a game or in inclement weather.

We see this all the time at WR.

But why not when playing Saints?   C'mon man, we need the help.

Because the players don't want to get lynched after the game. It's amazing how that focuses the mind.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I suspect that rather than the basic skills suddenly letting them down it is more a case of them never having been good enough in the first place to withstand execution under pressure. So we see teams that execute their skills really well when they are on the front foot, or in teh lead, but then struggle when on the back foot, chasing a game or in inclement weather.

We see this all the time at WR.

But why not when playing Saints?   C'mon man, we need the help.

Because the players don't want to get lynched after the game. It's amazing how that focuses the mind.

Subtle, yet effective.

Best half for a while!

Looked for all the world Saints would find a way to lose that but it all worked out in the end.

Scottrf wrote:Best half for a while!

Agree.  I almost thought we were a good team.  
And where was this all year?  
And Saints could have had more.  
And, and, and.

But we need to rip out in both freakin' halves to be a top level club again.  How did we let them back in? Shows we can play, but sometimes simply don't.  
Happy with the win, but as far as Saints are concerned, the Euro Cup thing is now in garbage time (pronounced garbaaage).  

In other words, regarding Saints, I am either bi-polar or schizophrenic.  Or maybe simply arguing with myself.   Again..............

Saints simply cannot consider themselves a top level side and give up 40 points multiple times during a season. So clearly Saints are in trouble.

The business case for a change at the top is being built game by game. Thank goodness I didn't see this one. But a good mate did and he told me the team is nearing its crisis point. He also told me Falcons did look real good, especially in the second half.

Looks like the coaching team is going nowhere. Phil Dowson brought in for next year so:

Jim: West's puppet.
West: Forward coach.
Dickens: Attack coach.
Dowson: Assistance coach.
Hopley: Defence coach (working so well).

Doc

Saints weren't great but yes we played very well after thw initial ten minutes. You literally couldnt live with us when we attacked....sinoti, JP Socino and Goneva were causing chaos.

Saints could usually rely on their defense, especially when the attack wasn't kicking into gear. With this last part of the foundation built by the current coaching team appearing to weaken, our coaching team has a shorter time to find answers.

On the other hand, it is nice to see Newcastle get rolling; shame it was at Saints expense.

Announced £1m shareholder investment.

Scottrf wrote:Looks like the coaching team is going nowhere. Phil Dowson brought in for next year so:

Jim: West's puppet.
West: Forward coach.
Dickens: Attack coach.
Dowson: Assistance coach.
Hopley: Defence coach (working so well).

Hardly inspiring is it?

doctor_grey wrote:Saints could usually rely on their defense, especially when the attack wasn't kicking into gear.  With this last part of the foundation built by the current coaching team appearing to weaken, our coaching team has a shorter time to find answers.  

On the other hand, it is nice to see Newcastle get rolling; shame it was at Saints expense.      

I saw the game and Newcastle were excellent going forward, especially Sinoti who was magnificent (why are they supposedly spending the money on DTH when they already have Sinoti and Goneva?) but Saints defending really was woeful.

It's a hard run in for the rest of the season. Think a year out of the Champions Cup beckons. It's okay though because Phil Dowson will make all the difference

B91212 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Saints could usually rely on their defense, especially when the attack wasn't kicking into gear.  With this last part of the foundation built by the current coaching team appearing to weaken, our coaching team has a shorter time to find answers.  

On the other hand, it is nice to see Newcastle get rolling; shame it was at Saints expense.      

I saw the game and Newcastle were excellent going forward, especially Sinoti who was magnificent (why are they supposedly spending the money on DTH when they already have Sinoti and Goneva?) but Saints defending really was woeful.

It's a hard run in for the rest of the season. Think a year out of the Champions Cup beckons. It's okay though because Phil Dowson will make all the difference

Are you assuming Saints finish in the top 6? With the 4 players currently on England duty coming back after the Six Nations, it might be possible to squeeze in, but will be tight. Fundamentally, the team seems almost rudderless. Almost just a bunch of blokes going out and playing.

Taking the £1m investment may be a good short term fix, but is not sustainable in the long run. Goes back to a lot of the discussions about transparency, hard salary cap, financial equality, and so on.

I think Saints probably have a bit more direction than Quins at the moment - so its not that bad!

propdavid_london wrote:I think Saints probably have a bit more direction than Quins at the moment - so its not that bad!

Unfortunately the direction is in the wrong direction.

I cant remember which game it was but they showed the number of years that DORs had been in place for the prem sides.
Mallinder stood out as someone who had been in place the longest!
I think Baxter was there for Chiefs, but he's shown pretty constant evolution of the side right through from a championship side. If Chiefs start to plateau out I would expect some to start saying that the management is becoming a little stale.

Same story with Cockers - I've heard the board are quite difficult to work with there, but a number of years underperformance by their standards and Cockers is given the heave ho.

I wonder if the new CEO will see things differently

Jim Mallinder stating that Top 4 is now out of reach, and they are in a fight for top 6. Would failing to make top 6 be the final nail?

I feel so bad for Picamoles in particular who worked so hard vs Leicester but his team mates couldn't see Saints over the line.

Having a try scored against you when a man up is quite poor.

I guess the biggest problem is who do you replace Mallinder with?

I still don't know why Saints have stuck with Myler for so long, he's a solid 10 who can do a job but he's not got star quality IMO.

Other teams have two better 10s than Saints first choice 10.

To me it should amount to the same as a resignation letter. Saints should be top 4 every year, they have the players, it is the management that is wrong. The coaching team just can't get the best out of them.

Saturday the backs looked dangerous, but the forwards where nowhere to be seen, completely dominated by Tigers, the last few weeks have been the other way around. Why did we have two backrowers on the bench and no lock against a side that takes pride in it's scrummaging. Clark is an emergency lock at best and with Lawes only able to pack down on one side, you are building in weaknesses.
Either Genge has come on a long way or he was up to something that neither the commentators, referee or me could see. Had both Brookes and Hill in his pocket. Got to be a tourist in the summer.

Agree about Picamoles, him and Lawes were the only forwards who could hold their heads up after that game.

Still think Tigers were lucky though, Peterson's "tackle" on Day to stop the try was a shoulder charge, no attempt to grasp the man, could so easily have been a penalty try and a yellow card.

I thought the Saints forwards dominated the breakdown at the weekend, helped by Tigers stupid three lock selection. The set piece was where Tigers targeted and applied pressure, Genge is being mentored by Stankovitch and Ayerza I can't think of better to teach him to scrummage.

The Saints backs looked good at times but faded in and out of the game, I forgot Mallinder was on the pitch for most of the game. Tactics were very odd.

Don't start with the yellow cards as Brookes gave away a plethora of penalties at the scrum and Wood stamped on Ben Youngs hand and only suffered a penalty.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I thought the Saints forwards dominated the breakdown at the weekend, helped by Tigers stupid three lock selection. The set piece was where Tigers targeted and applied pressure, Genge is being mentored by Stankovitch and Ayerza I can't think of better to teach him to scrummage.

The Saints backs looked good at times but faded in and out of the game, I forgot Mallinder was on the pitch for most of the game. Tactics were very odd.

Don't start with the yellow cards as Brookes gave away a plethora of penalties at the scrum and Wood stamped on Ben Youngs hand and only suffered a penalty.

Can't argue about Brookes, thought the Wood "stamping" was 50/50, not sure it was intentional, but he might have been lucky. My point was the "tackle" was illegal and would have given Saints 7 points at a critical time. No attempt to grasp the ball carrier in the act of putting the ball down; an illegal tackle that stopped a certain try- Penalty Try.. Stupid, as a legal tackle would have had the same effect without the risk of gifting Saints seven points and a possible yellow.

JPP was saved by the one angle that showed his right arm kind of wrapping around Day's back. Other than that angle all the others did indeed look like a clear shoulder barge.

At times the ref was very lenient to both sides I thought.

LondonTiger wrote:JPP was saved by the one angle that showed his right arm kind of wrapping around Day's back. Other than that angle all the others did indeed look like a clear shoulder barge.

At times the ref was very lenient to both sides I thought.