Saints Vs Leinster Round 1!

by Golden Thu 08 Dec 2016, 11:41 am

First topic message reminder :

Northampton Saints - VS- Leinster
Friday Dec 8th 19:45
Franklin Gardens

Match Officials:

Referee: Jerome Garces (FRA)
AR 1: Adrien Descottes (FRA)
AR 2: Sebastien Cloute (FRA)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (FRA)

Northampton : TBA

Leinster: LEINSTER: (Leinster caps in brackets)

15. Rob Kearney (182)
14. Adam Byrne (8)
13. Garry Ringrose (29)
12. Robbie Henshaw (3)
11. Isa Nacewa CAPTAIN (158)
10. Joey Carbery (10)
9. Luke McGrath (59)
1. Jack McGrath (101)
2. Sean Cronin (121)
3. Tadhg Furlong (56)
4. Devin Toner (187)
5. Hayden Triggs (18)
6. Sean O’Brien (105)
7. Josh van der Flier (32)
8. Jamie Heaslip (223)

16. James Tracy (27)
17. Cian Healy (161)
18. Michael Bent (70)
19. Rhys Ruddock (119)
20. Jack Conan (35)
21. Jamison Gibson-Park (10)
22. Ross Byrne (7)
23. Rory O’Loughlin (7)

by Dubbelyew L Overate Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:08 pm

Dylan may be an unexpected agent of Karma,but I suspect his popularity has just soared in France. If he gets more than the week that SOB received for his unprovoked pre-meditated thuggery at RWC it would be a travesty.

by Guest Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:11 pm

TJ wrote:17.19.2 Disciplinary Committees or Judicial Officers shall undertake an assessment of the seriousness of the Player’s conduct that constitutes the offending and categorise that conduct as being at the lower end, mid range or top end of the scale of seriousness in order to identify the appropriate entry point for consideration of a particular incident(s) of Foul Play where such incident(s) is expressly covered in Appendix 1. The assessment of the seriousness of the Player’s conduct shall be determined by reference to the following features:

(a) whether the offending was intentional or deliberate;

(b) whether the offending was reckless, that is the Player knew (or should have known) there was a risk of committing an act of Foul Play;

(c) the gravity of the Player’s actions in relation to the offending;

(d) the nature of the actions, the manner in which the offence was committed including part of body used (for example, fist, elbow, knee or boot);

(e) the existence of provocation;

(f) whether the Player acted in retaliation and the timing of such;

(g) whether the Player acted in self-defence (that is whether he used a reasonable degree of force in defending himself);

(h) the effect of the Player’s actions on the victim (for example, extent of injury, removal of victim Player from the game);

Accidental, but forceful. Not an honest attempt at a tackle but more an attempt to dislodge the ball. So it did carry an element of risk. Concussed player, which any panel will treat as serious.

Think that about covers it.

by Guest Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:12 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Dylan may be an unexpected agent of Karma,but I suspect his popularity has just soared in France. If he gets more than the week that SOB received for his unprovoked pre-meditated thuggery at RWC it would be a travesty.

Whataboutery at its finest.

by Guest Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:13 pm

TJ wrote:
anonmattyt wrote:
Griff wrote:Posted this on the Hartley thread on International, but agree with others here:

"I'm going to go out on a limb here and back Hartley in this incident. When you watch it in real time, and actually in slow motion too, for me he lines O'Brien up for a strong hit around the shoulder/chest area, arm wrapped around as its meant to be, and then O'Brien is suddenly taken down quite quickly and so Hartley's almost perfectly good tackle turns into a swinging arm to the head due to O'Brien's suddenly different body position vertically. Very unfortunate I think, and looks like swinging arm if you just see the hit to the head, but I think in the slow mo you can see Hartley initiatives the 'hit' when O'Brien is still on his feet and as I say the sudden the change in position of O'Brien's body has done for him."

Yes obrien dropped suddenly and that's why it happened.

2 weeks Max

Look at my post above. 4 week minimum as a starting point

Don't see how he complies with any of those points ?

He was so unlucky to get banned for the George thing pre WC. Any coach worth his salt and not an awful coward like Lancaster would have looked after him.

I used to think he was a rat. The gouge and back chat to Barnes were unforgivable. However he
Has rebuilt and is a great leader for England and potentially lions:

As mentioned wyn jones would be my lions captain as I think he is guaranteed to start although with Lawes, itoje, launchbury and both Gray brothers it's a strong position

by aucklandlaurie Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:13 pm

Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Having reviewed the Hartley incident, I now believe it was an accident:

Saint-or-Sinner?

Still likely to get a week or two suspension.

Hartley is a Kiwi isn't he so at the hearing that incident is bound to be deemed accidental

hmmm ... 50/50 I would say. Dead cert if he was an AB

Whats that meant to mean?

Apparently George Pisi copped a card as well.

by Guest Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:15 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Having reviewed the Hartley incident, I now believe it was an accident:

Saint-or-Sinner?

Still likely to get a week or two suspension.

Hartley is a Kiwi isn't he so at the hearing that incident is bound to be deemed accidental

hmmm ... 50/50 I would say. Dead cert if he was an AB

Whats that meant to mean?

Apparently George Pisi copped a card as well.

Sorry, Laurie. It was tongue in cheek Hug

by Guest Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:20 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Having reviewed the Hartley incident, I now believe it was an accident:

Saint-or-Sinner?

Still likely to get a week or two suspension.

Hartley is a Kiwi isn't he so at the hearing that incident is bound to be deemed accidental

hmmm ... 50/50 I would say. Dead cert if he was an AB

Whats that meant to mean?

Apparently George Pisi copped a card as well.

Maybe the fact that kiwis get a golden pass somehow?.

Despite being the best rugby team by a huge distance and basically redefining how rugby is played somehow you guys also get favourable disciplinary results.

BOD being pole axed in lions, callards head. Fekitoa etc.

You guys are kings and don't need the extra help!

by SecretFly Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:24 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Dylan may be an unexpected agent of Karma,but I suspect his popularity has just soared in France. If he gets more than the week that SOB received for his unprovoked pre-meditated thuggery at RWC it would be a travesty.

It's always 'thuggery' when the auld spud boys are involved Wink

I think SOB dropped a feeler. He tried telling the feeler to keep it for the showers afterwards with his own teammates.... but Pape liked him too much and a flooring was required. Wink

Do you approve of playground fondlers, Dubbelyew? Shocked

by TJ Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:32 pm

anonmattyt wrote:

Don't see how he complies with any of those points ?

....................

Strike to the head. Thats a 4 week starting point for a ban. I expect him to get more for his previous. If it was deliberate it would be an 8 week starting point

by TJ Fri 09 Dec 2016, 11:35 pm

TJ wrote:Had a look at the IRB site for what sanctions might apply. 4 weeks would be the starting point for this and it can be increased for previous bad behaviour. I think he will be lucky to get only 4 weeks.

10.4(a)
Striking another Player with a hand, arm or fist
LE – 2 weeks
MR – 4 weeks
TE – 8+ weeks
A strike to the head shall result in at least a mid-range entry point sanction.

I meant this post

by Pot Hale Sat 10 Dec 2016, 1:37 am

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Dylan may be an unexpected agent of Karma,but I suspect his popularity has just soared in France. If he gets more than the week that SOB received for his unprovoked pre-meditated thuggery at RWC it would be a travesty.

Agreed. When Sean O'Brien lashed out at the player from the other team for no reason, it was clear to all concerned that it was for no reason at all, and that he had been planning prior to the match that he would hit the player at that point in the game. This is the exact same as Hartley who arrived accidentally on the pitch and was forced to tackle Sean O'Brien because he had the ball. If O'Brien did not have the ball, this would not have happened.

Clearly Karma says that if there is to be no incidents in a rugby match on a player, then the player should ensure not to touch the ball.

by Pot Hale Sat 10 Dec 2016, 2:05 am

anonmattyt wrote:
Griff wrote:Posted this on the Hartley thread on International, but agree with others here:

"I'm going to go out on a limb here and back Hartley in this incident. When you watch it in real time, and actually in slow motion too, for me he lines O'Brien up for a strong hit around the shoulder/chest area, arm wrapped around as its meant to be, and then O'Brien is suddenly taken down quite quickly and so Hartley's almost perfectly good tackle turns into a swinging arm to the head due to O'Brien's suddenly different body position vertically. Very unfortunate I think, and looks like swinging arm if you just see the hit to the head, but I think in the slow mo you can see Hartley initiatives the 'hit' when O'Brien is still on his feet and as I say the sudden the change in position of O'Brien's body has done for him."

Yes obrien dropped suddenly and that's why it happened.

2 weeks Max

Yes it's all O'Briems fault for dropping suddenly.

by Golden Sat 10 Dec 2016, 2:29 am

Absolutely a red going by current laws. I like Hartley I really thought he'd turned over a new leaf. However in his career thus far he has received 6 suspensions totaling 54 weeks of bans not including this incident. I cant imagine the citing commission go easy on him and i would also imagine it would put his captaincy at stake for both club and country.

Good win for Leinster and i hope SOB (how good has he been since coming back from a year off?) and Carbery are ok. We've hammered Saints away before and lost the home match so need to guard against any complacency.

by Scottrf Sat 10 Dec 2016, 2:52 am

He hasn't been captain of Saints for over a year.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 10 Dec 2016, 7:46 am

Golden wrote:Absolutely a red going by current laws. I like Hartley I really thought he'd turned over a new leaf. However in his career thus far he has received 6 suspensions totaling 54 weeks of bans not including this incident. I cant imagine the citing commission go easy on him and i would also imagine it would put his captaincy at stake for both club and country.

The consistently excellent form of Jamie George is more of a threat to his England captaincy than this incident.

by Seagultaf Sat 10 Dec 2016, 8:41 am

Rugby cannot continue to condone hits to the head on the basis that it might have been accidental, whatever next....I thought his head was the ball guv?

Hartly went in with a swinging arm to dislodge the ball, by adopting this aggressive high risk approach the onus must be on him to ensure that his opponent is not injured. With his past disciplinary record he should have known better.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 10 Dec 2016, 8:59 am

Seagultaf wrote:Rugby cannot continue to condone hits to the head on the basis that it might have been accidental, whatever next....I thought his head was the ball guv?

Hartly went in with a swinging arm to dislodge the ball, by adopting this aggressive high risk approach the onus must be on him to ensure that his opponent is not injured. With his past disciplinary record he should have known better.

Don't think anyone is arguing it's not a red. General concensus is that it wasn't deliberate and should be a low end ban. Debate is on length of ban and fall out.

by TJ Sat 10 Dec 2016, 9:13 am

4 weeks is the starting point for a strike to the head. He won't get any reduction for previous good behaviour and might get a couple of weeks added on as SOB had to go off.

by Guest Sat 10 Dec 2016, 9:13 am

Pot Hale wrote:
anonmattyt wrote:
Griff wrote:Posted this on the Hartley thread on International, but agree with others here:

"I'm going to go out on a limb here and back Hartley in this incident. When you watch it in real time, and actually in slow motion too, for me he lines O'Brien up for a strong hit around the shoulder/chest area, arm wrapped around as its meant to be, and then O'Brien is suddenly taken down quite quickly and so Hartley's almost perfectly good tackle turns into a swinging arm to the head due to O'Brien's suddenly different body position vertically. Very unfortunate I think, and looks like swinging arm if you just see the hit to the head, but I think in the slow mo you can see Hartley initiatives the 'hit' when O'Brien is still on his feet and as I say the sudden the change in position of O'Brien's body has done for him."

Yes obrien dropped suddenly and that's why it happened.

2 weeks Max

Yes it's all O'Briems fault for dropping suddenly.

What a childish comment!

by geoff999rugby Sat 10 Dec 2016, 10:31 am

Will be at least 4 weeks, but given previous could be more

Listening to Mallinder after the game got the impression he is fed up with Hartley.

He made a point of saying what a fantastic job Hayward has done and that he expects internationals coming back to make a big positive contribution...(unsaid implication being Hartley had let the club down down)

by geoff999rugby Sat 10 Dec 2016, 10:32 am

Pot Hale wrote:Nothing in the Hartley tackle - just a hello remember me to O'Brien.

Ref being swayed by the Leinster fans.

Idiotic comment...if that is the best you can contribute don't bother

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 10 Dec 2016, 10:45 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Nothing in the Hartley tackle - just a hello remember me to O'Brien.

Ref being swayed by the Leinster fans.

Idiotic comment...if that is the best you can contribute don't bother

I think it was sarcasm - isn't Pot a Leinster fan?

by geoff999rugby Sat 10 Dec 2016, 10:59 am

by geoff999rugby Sat 10 Dec 2016, 11:05 am

You are indeed right Rory so a big angel

to Pot Hale

by formerly known as Sam Sat 10 Dec 2016, 11:21 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Will be at least 4 weeks, but given previous could be more

Listening to Mallinder after the game got the impression he is fed up with Hartley.

He made a point of saying what a fantastic job Hayward has done and that he expects internationals coming back to make a big positive contribution...(unsaid implication being Hartley had let the club down down)

It's certainly not what they needed from a senior international coming off the bench. I'm sure Mallinder was annoyed Hartley was so rash. He normally defends his players to the hilt see the bans handed to Brookes anf Clark in recent weeks.

by Scottrf Sat 10 Dec 2016, 12:03 pm

I don't think Hartley and the coaching team see eye to eye anyway to be honest.

With the way we are playing this sort of discipline is the last thing we need. Fuming at Hartley. So was Haywood by the look of the clip.

by Hood83 Sat 10 Dec 2016, 12:53 pm

Scottrf wrote:I don't think Hartley and the coaching team see eye to eye anyway to be honest.

With the way we are playing this sort of discipline is the last thing we need. Fuming at Hartley. So was Haywood by the look of the clip.

But I think that's the point, the way you are playing under Mallinder is pretty awful. This is a distraction, one I expect he'll be happy to use, but the reality is you need fresh ideas and a new coaching set up. Mallinder is taking you backwards, and I'm not convinced he's ever offered much beyond developing a big pack with a solid set piece and killer rolling maul.

by Seagultaf Sat 10 Dec 2016, 1:56 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:Rugby cannot continue to condone hits to the head on the basis that it might have been accidental, whatever next....I thought his head was the ball guv?

Hartly went in with a swinging arm to dislodge the ball, by adopting this aggressive high risk approach the onus must be on him to ensure that his opponent is not injured. With his past disciplinary record he should have known better.

Don't think anyone is arguing it's not a red. General concensus is that it wasn't deliberate and should be a low end ban. Debate is on length of ban and fall out.

I don't see whether it was accidental or not is an issue, he hit an opponent in the head resulting in a head injury.

by TJ Sat 10 Dec 2016, 2:02 pm

Deliberate or reckless changes the sanction - for reckless its a 4 week starting point, for intentional its 8 from my reading

by Guest Sat 10 Dec 2016, 5:05 pm

I think 4.

Game gone soft for me. Should be sending off suffices

by Seagultaf Sat 10 Dec 2016, 5:50 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
anonmattyt wrote:
Griff wrote:Posted this on the Hartley thread on International, but agree with others here:

"I'm going to go out on a limb here and back Hartley in this incident. When you watch it in real time, and actually in slow motion too, for me he lines O'Brien up for a strong hit around the shoulder/chest area, arm wrapped around as its meant to be, and then O'Brien is suddenly taken down quite quickly and so Hartley's almost perfectly good tackle turns into a swinging arm to the head due to O'Brien's suddenly different body position vertically. Very unfortunate I think, and looks like swinging arm if you just see the hit to the head, but I think in the slow mo you can see Hartley initiatives the 'hit' when O'Brien is still on his feet and as I say the sudden the change in position of O'Brien's body has done for him."

Yes obrien dropped suddenly and that's why it happened.

2 weeks Max

Yes it's all O'Briems fault for dropping suddenly.

No way can he claim that his swinging arm was aimed at the ball as O'Brien was holding the ball close to his chest and he had his back to Hartley! Haymaker to the head and from behind, it looked a really cheap shot, I can see him getting a really long ban.

by No9 Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:37 am

IMO - Hartley should be stripped of the England captains role. He isn't the role model we want to see for the young kids.

Don't think he will be though...

But think he's blown any chance of being the Lions captain now. Gats wont put up with that from a capt. He expects them to lead by example. He may have even blown any chance of being the first choice for the Lions test, or even being selected. Lets not forget, Gats left the last England capt at home.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:47 am

anonmattyt wrote:
TJ wrote:
anonmattyt wrote:
Griff wrote:Posted this on the Hartley thread on International, but agree with others here:

"I'm going to go out on a limb here and back Hartley in this incident. When you watch it in real time, and actually in slow motion too, for me he lines O'Brien up for a strong hit around the shoulder/chest area, arm wrapped around as its meant to be, and then O'Brien is suddenly taken down quite quickly and so Hartley's almost perfectly good tackle turns into a swinging arm to the head due to O'Brien's suddenly different body position vertically. Very unfortunate I think, and looks like swinging arm if you just see the hit to the head, but I think in the slow mo you can see Hartley initiatives the 'hit' when O'Brien is still on his feet and as I say the sudden the change in position of O'Brien's body has done for him."

Yes obrien dropped suddenly and that's why it happened.

2 weeks Max

Look at my post above. 4 week minimum as a starting point

Don't see how he complies with any of those points ?

He was so unlucky to get banned for the George thing pre WC. Any coach worth his salt and not an awful coward like Lancaster would have looked after him.

I used to think he was a rat. The gouge and back chat to Barnes were unforgivable. However he
Has rebuilt and is a great leader for England and potentially lions:

As mentioned wyn jones would be my lions captain as I think he is guaranteed to start although with Lawes, itoje, launchbury and both Gray brothers it's a strong position

Why was Lancaster a coward? By not risking taking a banned player to the world cup and potentially having to drop someone else if cover was needed?

by the-goon Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:55 am

It was a clear as day cheap shot. Even if SOB had stayed up right it would have been a swinging arm to the bottom of neck or upper back. He wasn't drving the shoulder in or wrapping his arms to make a tackle at all. It was just a violent swing of the right arm into the back of a player who then dropped to the ground (as it happens quite often when another player has your legs, something Hartley could see). Should be a minimum of the 8 weeks, with an additional 5 or more for previous. It was dirty and cowardly, throw the book at the scumbag.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:57 am

You can't add more for previous.

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:29 pm

They can't add more, but they might not take anything off for remorse, non-contesting the charge or previous good record.

Whatever happens at the citing happens. Surprised Mallinder threw his guy under the bus post match. To say he did it to that extent means he has lost the dressing room or else is trying to drive a wedge between Hartley and the squad.

If I was Lancaster would I want to take over a club in this state? He famously punished Hartley before, if he takes over from Mallinder Hartley could be on the road (Toulon, Toulouse, Bath, where could he go).

Leinster were without their first choice 10 for the game and lost their replacement 10 early in the game. Ross Byrne did ok, but it was shocking how poor Saints are this season that they didn't bully Leinster at that stage. Thought Henshaw spent most of his time looking after the rookie outhalf which left him quiet in other aspects of his game. After losing Kearney we had 2 very inexperienced wings but again Saints didn't pick up on that weakness.

There has to be a response from that Saints pack this week.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 12 Dec 2016, 12:35 pm

As I said above it was a big risk if Lancaster took Hartley to the WC as he would only have had 2 fit hookers for the first match.

by thebandwagonsociety Fri 16 Dec 2016, 3:49 pm

LEINSTER: (Leinster caps in brackets)

15. Zane Kirchner (74)
14. Adam Byrne (9)
13. Garry Ringrose (30)
12. Robbie Henshaw (4)
11. Isa Nacewa CAPTAIN (159)
10. Ross Byrne (8)
9. Luke McGrath (60)
1. Jack McGrath (102)
2. Sean Cronin (122)
3. Tadhg Furlong (57)
4. Devin Toner (188)
5. Hayden Triggs (19)
6. Sean O’Brien (106)
7. Josh van der Flier (33)
8. Jamie Heaslip (224)

16. James Tracy (28)
17. Cian Healy (162)
18. Michael Bent (71)
19. Rhys Ruddock (120)
20. Jack Conan (36)
21. Jamison Gibson-Park (12)
22. Noel Reid (70)
23. Rory O’Loughlin (8)

Match Officials:

Referee: Romain Poite (FRA)

AR 1: Tual Trainini (FRA)

AR 2: Mathieu Noirot (FRA)

TMO: Eric Briquet-Campin (FRA)

by thebandwagonsociety Fri 16 Dec 2016, 4:42 pm

Anything happens to Ross Byrne and they will be call on a replacement outhalf out of the crowd

by geoff999rugby Fri 16 Dec 2016, 5:42 pm

My guess it would have to Nacewa

Marsh not in the squad ?

by Scottrf Fri 16 Dec 2016, 5:55 pm

Saints lineup is very much a concentrate on the league one.

by SecretFly Fri 16 Dec 2016, 5:59 pm

Scottrf wrote:Saints lineup is very much a concentrate on the league one.

That's when you (as in Leinster) have to concentrate even more. These 'we're going to let you win' selections can lull opponents into a false sense of security.

by doctor_grey Fri 16 Dec 2016, 8:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Saints lineup is very much a concentrate on the league one.

That's when you (as in Leinster) have to concentrate even more. These 'we're going to let you win' selections can lull opponents into a false sense of security.

Not this time, matey.

Mallinder has some real heavy lifting to do in the Premiership to salvage the season and, possibly, his job. I don't recall Saints putting out non-competitive teams in the Euro Rugby, even when there was no chance of advancing. Sadly, the latest, and most obvious, sign thing are not rosey in The Rose of Shires.

by Engine#4 Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:19 am

It's not like an English team to put out the second string. A win versus an inexperienced Leinster team could kick start their confidence. Bit disappointing for the fans shelling out for tickets, especially given it's an expensive time of year. Hopefully Leinster trample them.

by Guest Sat 17 Dec 2016, 3:25 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:As I said above it was a big risk if Lancaster took Hartley to the WC as he would only have had 2 fit hookers for the first match.

Lancaster was garbage full stop. Rugbys steve McClaren a good coach but lacks personality to be head coach. He should have taken Hartley as he would have missed one game. Also he should never have been banned.

I hated Lancaster from day 1 for 3 reasons

1. He was a petty school teacher who never played a decent level
2. He picked players out of position consistently
3. He was matey with all players and let them rule roost. They were unfit

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