Edinburgh and Glasgow: Ongoing Banter Thread XIV (It's still personal)

by tigertattie Thu 8 Dec - 17:29

First topic message reminder :

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Edinburgh & Glasgow Warriors

A Not So Brief History of Time-Wasting (click to show/hide):

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1872 Cup

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Champions Runner up
Edinburgh Glasgow Warriors
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1872 Cup - Past Results (click to show/hide):

2007–08
28 December 2007, Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 35–31 Glasgow Warriors
11 April 2008, Firhill Stadium, Glasgow Warriors 23–14 Edinburgh
Winner: Glasgow Warriors 54–49

2008–09
26 December 2008, Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 39–6 Glasgow Warriors
2 January 2009, Firhill Stadium, Glasgow Warriors 25–20 Edinburgh
Winner: Edinburgh 59–31

2009–10
27 December 2009, Firhill Stadium, Glasgow Warriors 25–12 Edinburgh
2 January 2010, Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 15–22 Glasgow Warriors
Winner: Glasgow Warriors 47–27

2010–11
27 December 2010, Firhill Stadium, Glasgow Warriors 30–18 Edinburgh
2 January 2011, Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 28–17 Glasgow Warriors
Winner: Glasgow Warriors 47–46

2011–12
26 December 2011, Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 23–23 Glasgow Warriors
1 January 2012, Firhill Stadium, Glasgow Warriors 17–12 Edinburgh
Winner: Glasgow Warriors 40–35

2012–13
21 December 2012, Scotstoun Stadium, Glasgow Warriors 23–14 Edinburgh
29 December 2012, Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 17–21 Glasgow Warriors
Winner: Glasgow Warriors 44–31

2013–14
26 December 2013, Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 16–20 Glasgow Warriors
26 April 2014, Scotstoun Stadium, Glasgow Warriors 37–34 Edinburgh (postponed from 1st Jan due to waterlogged pitch)
Winner: Glasgow 57–50

2014–15
27 December 2014, Scotstoun Stadium, Glasgow Warriors 16–6 Edinburgh
2 January 2015, Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 20–8 Glasgow Warriors
Winner: Edinburgh 26–24

2015–16
27 December 2015, Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh 23–11 Glasgow Warriors
2 January 2016, Murrayfield Stadium, Glasgow Warriors 11–14 Edinburgh (moved from Scotstoun due to waterlogged pitch)
Winner: Edinburgh 37–22

Winners tally
Glasgow Warriors - 6
Edinburgh - 3

Some tidying up could be required as I'm no a PC wizz!

PS - Any player from Ayr is not necessarily "World class"

by EST Thu 19 Jan - 15:16

Anyway, back to other matters - did anybody see the interview with Finn Russell on the Warriors youtube channel?

After watching, I reckon there is very little chance of FR staying on after his contract is up. Our favourite media correspondent, Jeremy Bone, ask's some pointed questions about staying on at Glasgow after the media speculation, Finn's answers doesn't exactly fill me with any confidence that he will stay.

He also discusses how he has learned from the last 10mins of the Munster game...here's hoping.

by Sin é Thu 19 Jan - 15:23

EWT Spoons wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Sin é wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Sin é wrote:RDW - he says its been happening in the 3 games that Munster have played this season. The Strauss tackle is mentioned because he said that is when drew it to the attention of the officials.

I think he was trying not to blame the Glasgow players and take them out of the spotlight.

I presume it must be the Glasgow Defence Coach who also happens to be the Scotland Defence Coach. I'd imagine Murray wants to be able to finish the 6Ns and go on the Lions tour and doesn't want to have to risk that again. Good time to fire a warning shot over Scotland's Coaching Team and give them a chance to reasses their tactics.

But again this is him making a public accusation that Glasgow's coaches are deliberately making tactics to injure the opposition - that is very serious claim and we can't have players doing that!

Well, I'm looking forward to hearing what Glasgow has to say about this and to whoever devised the tactic to defend it.

I'm assuming neither Strauss or Gray have been cited - based on all camera angles available - so Glasgow's coaches have nothing to answer for?

Aye apparently Glasgow have declined to comment as they are focussed on their next game, and not the nonsense ramblings of Murray...I'm paraphrasing

Hopefully working on new tactics that don't entail injuring someone. I'm sure Ben Youngs will appreciate this so called 'rambling nonsense'

by the-goon Thu 19 Jan - 15:29

I think it's a grey area, and we are talking about split seconds between a late and legal tackle. The sanction is there, so I don't think law changes have much merit.

Looking at it from CM's perspective, he is being tackled when he is at his most vunerable ( one leg, back turned and twisting his body) when boxing kicking, and the tacklers don't really have a chance of stopping the kick.

So from the defensive side, where is the gain? The ref could easily call a late tackle, and that is a pen where the ball lands. If he dummies and snipes, it will be to the otherside of the ruck because that is the direction he is facing, niether Gray and Strauss would get to him. If he passes either direction, you're not getting the ball, and then you are a man short in defence by commiting. Glasgow only send a man into tackle the SH when he is shaping to kick rather than every ruck, so what was the logic? How many dummy box kicks have you seen?

by PhilBB Thu 19 Jan - 15:29

Expecting a coach to defend the tactic of tackling a ball carrier, accusations of trying to break legs, claiming legitimate tackles are dangerous.

Sin e has some front. And no shame.

by Sin é Thu 19 Jan - 15:30

Just for the record - this is one of Glasgow's attempted charge downs from the game in October where Murray is injured.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/820749866636890112

by **BigGee** Thu 19 Jan - 15:30

Sin é wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Sin é wrote:RDW - he says its been happening in the 3 games that Munster have played this season. The Strauss tackle is mentioned because he said that is when drew it to the attention of the officials.

I think he was trying not to blame the Glasgow players and take them out of the spotlight.

I presume it must be the Glasgow Defence Coach who also happens to be the Scotland Defence Coach. I'd imagine Murray wants to be able to finish the 6Ns and go on the Lions tour and doesn't want to have to risk that again. Good time to fire a warning shot over Scotland's Coaching Team and give them a chance to reasses their tactics.

But again this is him making a public accusation that Glasgow's coaches are deliberately making tactics to injure the opposition - that is very serious claim and we can't have players doing that!

Well, I'm looking forward to hearing what Glasgow has to say about this and to whoever devised the tactic to defend it.

Glasgow are not going to respond to this, as there is mothing to respond to and giving baseless allegations some semblance of legitimacy would serve no purpose. The Glasgow coaching staff do not coach their players to go out and attempt to deliberately injure opposition players.

Glasgow have actually dealt with all of the unsavoury yet baseless allegations that have come of the Munster camp this season with great dignity and took the losses to Munster very sportingly. This is a great credit to them, people should not forget just how difficult it was for them to play in that match in Limerick as well.

by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jan - 15:33

Sin e, do you honestly believe this, or are you just on the wind up? I only ask because the ref didn't see anything, the citing officer didn't see anything. The incidents in the youtube clips show Gray tackling initially at waist/upper thigh level before sliding down (damn gravity) and Strauss trying to tackle Murray round the legs. None of which is illegal.

I've not played in quite a while, but I am genuinely struggling to see what Murray's issue is with the Glasgow players, and to such an extent that he is accusing a professional sports team, of getting together with the intention of purposely injuring a fellow professional.

I think rambling nonsense is a fairly accurate way of describing Murray's comments.

by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jan - 15:40

the-goon wrote:I think it's a grey area, and we are talking about split seconds between a late and legal tackle. The sanction is there, so I don't think law changes have much merit.

Looking at it from CM's perspective, he is being tackled when he is at his most vunerable ( one leg, back turned and twisting his body) when boxing kicking, and the tacklers don't really have a chance of stopping the kick.

So from the defensive side, where is the gain? The ref could easily call a late tackle, and that is a pen where the ball lands. If he dummies and snipes, it will be to the otherside of the ruck because that is the direction he is facing, niether Gray and Strauss would get to him. If he passes either direction, you're not getting the ball, and then you are a man short in defence by commiting. Glasgow only send a man into tackle the SH when he is shaping to kick rather than every ruck, so what was the logic? How many dummy box kicks have you seen?

I'd guess it's primarily psychological, in that Murray know's every time he get's the ball at the back of the ruck he's going to be tackled, whether he's kicking or not. This I would imagine would be used to make sure he doesn't have time to think clearly about what he is going to do with the ball and hopefully make a mistake.

On the day it didn't work as Munster won the game, but as a tactic of stopping the scrum half from having an age on the ball to dictate play it does make sense.

Also with the sniping, I think Gray had one side and Strauss the other, so in theory if he snipes he's going to face one of them. Now I've not watched the whole game but from the clips you posted earlier that would seem to be the case.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's my interpretation

by Sin é Thu 19 Jan - 15:48

Jerry Flannery brought it up publicly during the game last Saturday when interviewed and Conor Murray brought it up again at the Munster Press Conference yesterday, so its not me winding anyone up.

From what Conor Murray said, Glasgow has used the tactic of going low on standing leg when scrumhalfs are kicking and he considers it to be a dangerous tactic and the only reason he considers they are doing this is to injure the scrumhalf as will achieve nothing else.

He said Glasgow are the only team he has played against that use this tactic of tackling the scrumhalf on the standing leg when kicking from behind a ruck. He doesn't see what is to be gained from it and an attempt at a blockdown would be more usual.

The issue with the Glasgow players is going to tackle him when he is standing on one foot when he is vulnerable to injury.

Here is an example from the October game in Thomond Park where Murray is left lying down injured.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/820749866636890112

Please read the comments beneath the video for the explaination as to what is wrong with it.

by EST Thu 19 Jan - 15:51

Sin é wrote:Jerry Flannery brought it up publicly during the game last Saturday when interviewed and Conor Murray brought it up again at the Munster Press Conference yesterday, so its not me winding anyone up.

From what Conor Murray said, Glasgow has used the tactic of going low on standing leg when scrumhalfs are kicking and he considers it to be a dangerous tactic and the only reason he considers they are doing this is to injure the scrumhalf as will achieve nothing else.

He said Glasgow are the only team he has played against that use this tactic of tackling the scrumhalf on the standing leg when kicking from behind a ruck. He doesn't see what is to be gained from it and an attempt at a blockdown would be more usual.

The issue with the Glasgow players is going to tackle him when he is standing on one foot when he is vulnerable to injury.

Here is an example from the October game in Thomond Park where Murray is left lying down injured.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/820749866636890112

Please read the comments beneath the video for the explaination as to what is wrong with it.

In the above clip, all I see is Swinson going for an attempted chargedown - I assume he lands on Murrays leg, but the camera angle changes at the point of contact. Do you have a clearer clip?

by **RDW** Thu 19 Jan - 15:59

EST wrote:
Sin é wrote:Jerry Flannery brought it up publicly during the game last Saturday when interviewed and Conor Murray brought it up again at the Munster Press Conference yesterday, so its not me winding anyone up.

From what Conor Murray said, Glasgow has used the tactic of going low on standing leg when scrumhalfs are kicking and he considers it to be a dangerous tactic and the only reason he considers they are doing this is to injure the scrumhalf as will achieve nothing else.

He said Glasgow are the only team he has played against that use this tactic of tackling the scrumhalf on the standing leg when kicking from behind a ruck. He doesn't see what is to be gained from it and an attempt at a blockdown would be more usual.

The issue with the Glasgow players is going to tackle him when he is standing on one foot when he is vulnerable to injury.

Here is an example from the October game in Thomond Park where Murray is left lying down injured.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/820749866636890112

Please read the comments beneath the video for the explaination as to what is wrong with it.

In the above clip, all I see is Swinson going for an attempted chargedown - I assume he lands on Murrays leg, but the camera angle changes at the point of contact. Do you have a clearer clip?

Once again I have looked and looked and looked and can't see what is wrong with that - he has dived with his arms out to try and charge it down and gravity has brought him down to earth!

None of the videos so far have shown me anything to believe that this is actually worthy of the attention it is getting - I just don't see it.

by Sin é Thu 19 Jan - 16:00

EST wrote:
Sin é wrote:Jerry Flannery brought it up publicly during the game last Saturday when interviewed and Conor Murray brought it up again at the Munster Press Conference yesterday, so its not me winding anyone up.

From what Conor Murray said, Glasgow has used the tactic of going low on standing leg when scrumhalfs are kicking and he considers it to be a dangerous tactic and the only reason he considers they are doing this is to injure the scrumhalf as will achieve nothing else.

He said Glasgow are the only team he has played against that use this tactic of tackling the scrumhalf on the standing leg when kicking from behind a ruck. He doesn't see what is to be gained from it and an attempt at a blockdown would be more usual.

The issue with the Glasgow players is going to tackle him when he is standing on one foot when he is vulnerable to injury.

Here is an example from the October game in Thomond Park where Murray is left lying down injured.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/820749866636890112

Please read the comments beneath the video for the explaination as to what is wrong with it.

In the above clip, all I see is Swinson going for an attempted chargedown - I assume he lands on Murrays leg, but the camera angle changes at the point of contact. Do you have a clearer clip?

Swinson isn't attempting a chargedown because Murray is right footed and will only kick the other way.

I don't have a fuller clip, but the game moves on and Murray is left lying on the ground because Swinson got him in the ankles from behind.

The comments during the game last Saturday by a former Munster Scrumhalf to Murray Kinsella.

Cathal Sheridan ‏@catsheridan1 Jan 16
@Murray_Kinsella
It's dangerous, dirty, cheap, nasty, and malicious.
Every one a potential leg breaker. Needs to be banned by IRB asap

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/820749748164587520

by PhilBB Thu 19 Jan - 16:06

Munster fans get pious over legitimate tackles whilst holding gouging, knee stamping Quinlan and head kicker O'Connell as legends.

You couldn't make up the level of delusion.

by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jan - 16:08

I can't see the clip currently, but I assume Swinson is charging down on the wrong side of the kick? But I assume this is because Swinson is on that side and hasn't purposely run round to get on the standing leg side?

So if this is the case, then is there anything stopping Murray from kicking in Swinson's direction? I appreciate he's kicking with his other foot, but presumably he could aim his kick towards Swinson, or it could take a weird deflection of his boot towards where Swinson is.

What I'm, slowly, getting at is that Swinson probably is trying to block the kick on the off chance it comes his way. It might not, but how silly would he look if the ball sails over his head and he made no attempt to block it.

Of course I could be wrong on all of this, because as I said I can't currently view the clip.

by PhilBB Thu 19 Jan - 16:09

Murray is right footed: that's a beauty.

No scrum half ever kicks off his 'wrong' foot, right?

The hypocrisy is outstanding.

by Sin é Thu 19 Jan - 16:14

EWT Spoons wrote:I can't see the clip currently, but I assume Swinson is charging down on the wrong side of the kick? But I assume this is because Swinson is on that side and hasn't purposely run round to get on the standing leg side?

So if this is the case, then is there anything stopping Murray from kicking in Swinson's direction? I appreciate he's kicking with his other foot, but presumably he could aim his kick towards Swinson, or it could take a weird deflection of his boot towards where Swinson is.

What I'm, slowly, getting at is that Swinson probably is trying to block the kick on the off chance it comes his way. It might not, but how silly would he look if the ball sails over his head and he made no attempt to block it.

Of course I could be wrong on all of this, because as I said I can't currently view the clip.

Munster have 3 Munster forwards protecting him on the other side of the ruck, so I would expect Swinson would expect him to use that protection. Johnny Grey attempts a blockdown by launching himself onto John Ryan Very Happy

by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jan - 16:19

Sin é wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:I can't see the clip currently, but I assume Swinson is charging down on the wrong side of the kick? But I assume this is because Swinson is on that side and hasn't purposely run round to get on the standing leg side?

So if this is the case, then is there anything stopping Murray from kicking in Swinson's direction? I appreciate he's kicking with his other foot, but presumably he could aim his kick towards Swinson, or it could take a weird deflection of his boot towards where Swinson is.

What I'm, slowly, getting at is that Swinson probably is trying to block the kick on the off chance it comes his way. It might not, but how silly would he look if the ball sails over his head and he made no attempt to block it.

Of course I could be wrong on all of this, because as I said I can't currently view the clip.

Munster have 3 Munster forwards protecting him on the other side of the ruck, so I would expect Swinson would expect him to use that protection. Johnny Grey attempts a blockdown by launching himself onto John Ryan

I think you are giving Swinson waaaaaay too much credit there. I would be amazed if he's thought about what was happening any more than "stick hands up" Very Happy

by Sin é Thu 19 Jan - 16:21

EWT Spoons wrote:
Sin é wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:I can't see the clip currently, but I assume Swinson is charging down on the wrong side of the kick? But I assume this is because Swinson is on that side and hasn't purposely run round to get on the standing leg side?

So if this is the case, then is there anything stopping Murray from kicking in Swinson's direction? I appreciate he's kicking with his other foot, but presumably he could aim his kick towards Swinson, or it could take a weird deflection of his boot towards where Swinson is.

What I'm, slowly, getting at is that Swinson probably is trying to block the kick on the off chance it comes his way. It might not, but how silly would he look if the ball sails over his head and he made no attempt to block it.

Of course I could be wrong on all of this, because as I said I can't currently view the clip.

Munster have 3 Munster forwards protecting him on the other side of the ruck, so I would expect Swinson would expect him to use that protection. Johnny Grey attempts a blockdown by launching himself onto John Ryan

I think you are giving Swinson waaaaaay too much credit there. I would be amazed if he's thought about what was happening any more than "stick hands up"

But he didn't just stick up his hands though. I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

by RugbyFan100 Thu 19 Jan - 16:22

Has Murray accused coaches of telling their players to inure a player? That's an extremely strong accusation to level at a fellow professional.

Surely this accusation will be followed up by the powers that be? If he is correct then the coaches accused should be banned.

by Sin é Thu 19 Jan - 16:28

RugbyFan100 wrote:Has Murray accused coaches of telling their players to inure a player? That's an extremely strong accusation to level at a fellow professional.

Surely this accusation will be followed up by the powers that be? If he is correct then the coaches accused should be banned.

No, he hasn't.

What he has said that this tactic is dangerous.

Here is the relevant bit of what he actually said.

“I’m properly p*ssed off about that. I don’t see any benefit in charging down someone’s standing leg. I only see it as a danger or as a potential to get injured.

“I don’t think it’s a good tactic. You could put another label on that type of tactic, but they did it to us at Thomond Park, they got our scrum-half Te (Aihe Toma) with it in the league game and they almost got me a couple of times.

“So, luckily my leg came out of the ground and I managed to fall over, but if my leg stayed in the ground — especially in that surface — you’re looking at syndesmosis, you’re looking at cruciate (ligament).

“I’m not blaming the players. I don’t know who told them to do it but it’s dangerous. It’s very dangerous and thankfully I didn’t get injured but if I had have been injured I would have been going on more of a rant.”

This type of tackle needs to be outlawed and then the refs can penalise for it.

by True Raven Thu 19 Jan - 16:32

Sin é wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Has Murray accused coaches of telling their players to inure a player? That's an extremely strong accusation to level at a fellow professional.

Surely this accusation will be followed up by the powers that be? If he is correct then the coaches accused should be banned.

No, he hasn't.

What he has said that this tactic is dangerous.

Here is the relevant bit of what he actually said.

“I’m properly p*ssed off about that. I don’t see any benefit in charging down someone’s standing leg. I only see it as a danger or as a potential to get injured.

“I don’t think it’s a good tactic. You could put another label on that type of tactic, but they did it to us at Thomond Park, they got our scrum-half Te (Aihe Toma) with it in the league game and they almost got me a couple of times.

“So, luckily my leg came out of the ground and I managed to fall over, but if my leg stayed in the ground — especially in that surface — you’re looking at syndesmosis, you’re looking at cruciate (ligament).

“I’m not blaming the players. I don’t know who told them to do it but it’s dangerous. It’s very dangerous and thankfully I didn’t get injured but if I had have been injured I would have been going on more of a rant.”

This type of tackle needs to be outlawed and then the refs can penalise for it.

I agree, its similar to a chop block in American Football when Offensive Lineman hit low on a defender to stop them. In American football it doesn't draw a flag but is seen as a dirty way to stop a defender as it can cause serious damage

by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jan - 16:34

Sin é wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Has Murray accused coaches of telling their players to inure a player? That's an extremely strong accusation to level at a fellow professional.

Surely this accusation will be followed up by the powers that be? If he is correct then the coaches accused should be banned.

No, he hasn't.

What he has said that this tactic is dangerous.

Here is the relevant bit of what he actually said.

“I’m properly p*ssed off about that. I don’t see any benefit in charging down someone’s standing leg. I only see it as a danger or as a potential to get injured.

“I don’t think it’s a good tactic. You could put another label on that type of tactic, but they did it to us at Thomond Park, they got our scrum-half Te (Aihe Toma) with it in the league game and they almost got me a couple of times.

“So, luckily my leg came out of the ground and I managed to fall over, but if my leg stayed in the ground — especially in that surface — you’re looking at syndesmosis, you’re looking at cruciate (ligament).

“I’m not blaming the players. I don’t know who told them to do it but it’s dangerous. It’s very dangerous and thankfully I didn’t get injured but if I had have been injured I would have been going on more of a rant.”

This type of tackle needs to be outlawed and then the refs can penalise for it.

He has though. Not directly but "’I'm not blaming the players. I don’t know who told them to do it but it’s dangerous", is blatantly saying the coaches told them to injure him.

by cakeordeath Thu 19 Jan - 16:52

I am getting sick and tired of this drivel. I have tried to be balanced, been nothing but gracious in defeat and what happens ....you get this sh!t thrown back in your face. I have never had any animosity towards Munster, that has quickly changed based on their behaviour over the last few months.

I am done discussing this, because I have no time for baseless accusations

Ref didn't see a problem
TJ's didn't see a problem
CC didn't see a problem.

I guess everyone else is wrong.

by the-goon Thu 19 Jan - 16:58

EWT Spoons wrote:
the-goon wrote:I think it's a grey area, and we are talking about split seconds between a late and legal tackle. The sanction is there, so I don't think law changes have much merit.

Looking at it from CM's perspective, he is being tackled when he is at his most vunerable ( one leg, back turned and twisting his body) when boxing kicking, and the tacklers don't really have a chance of stopping the kick.

So from the defensive side, where is the gain? The ref could easily call a late tackle, and that is a pen where the ball lands. If he dummies and snipes, it will be to the otherside of the ruck because that is the direction he is facing, niether Gray and Strauss would get to him. If he passes either direction, you're not getting the ball, and then you are a man short in defence by commiting. Glasgow only send a man into tackle the SH when he is shaping to kick rather than every ruck, so what was the logic? How many dummy box kicks have you seen?

I'd guess it's primarily psychological, in that Murray know's every time he get's the ball at the back of the ruck he's going to be tackled, whether he's kicking or not. This I would imagine would be used to make sure he doesn't have time to think clearly about what he is going to do with the ball and hopefully make a mistake.

On the day it didn't work as Munster won the game, but as a tactic of stopping the scrum half from having an age on the ball to dictate play it does make sense.

Also with the sniping, I think Gray had one side and Strauss the other, so in theory if he snipes he's going to face one of them. Now I've not watched the whole game but from the clips you posted earlier that would seem to be the case.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's my interpretation

1st bold. The "in your face" is valid, but they only charge at him when he a shaping to kick, so it does seem to be a tactic to target a kicking SH only. The point Murray is raising is the fact the SH is at their most vunerable then. Is the tactic unnecessarily dangerous? What would be the reaction if the Tigers did that to Price, and injured him after the ball was kicked?

2nd bold. That doesn't really make sense. The SH picks the ball up and kicks it in one action, there is no chance a defender would get a tackle in before the ball is kicked unless a SH is sooo slow, if that was the case they wouldn't be a pro. Similar to a pass, nobody really tries to charge and tackle the SH when he passes from the base, the chances of catching the player in possession is so remote, it isn't worth it.
If the SH is picking the ball up and taking 2 or 3 steps before passing or kicking then it's right thing to do, you have a chance of getting the guy in possession.

by EWT Spoons Thu 19 Jan - 17:05

the-goon wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:
the-goon wrote:I think it's a grey area, and we are talking about split seconds between a late and legal tackle. The sanction is there, so I don't think law changes have much merit.

Looking at it from CM's perspective, he is being tackled when he is at his most vunerable ( one leg, back turned and twisting his body) when boxing kicking, and the tacklers don't really have a chance of stopping the kick.

So from the defensive side, where is the gain? The ref could easily call a late tackle, and that is a pen where the ball lands. If he dummies and snipes, it will be to the otherside of the ruck because that is the direction he is facing, niether Gray and Strauss would get to him. If he passes either direction, you're not getting the ball, and then you are a man short in defence by commiting. Glasgow only send a man into tackle the SH when he is shaping to kick rather than every ruck, so what was the logic? How many dummy box kicks have you seen?

I'd guess it's primarily psychological, in that Murray know's every time he get's the ball at the back of the ruck he's going to be tackled, whether he's kicking or not. This I would imagine would be used to make sure he doesn't have time to think clearly about what he is going to do with the ball and hopefully make a mistake.

On the day it didn't work as Munster won the game, but as a tactic of stopping the scrum half from having an age on the ball to dictate play it does make sense.

Also with the sniping, I think Gray had one side and Strauss the other, so in theory if he snipes he's going to face one of them. Now I've not watched the whole game but from the clips you posted earlier that would seem to be the case.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's my interpretation

1st bold. The "in your face" is valid, but they only charge at him when he a shaping to kick, so it does seem to be a tactic to target a kicking SH only. The point Murray is raising is the fact the SH is at their most vunerable then. Is the tactic unnecessarily dangerous? What would be the reaction if the Tigers did that to Price, and injured him after the ball was kicked?

2nd bold. That doesn't really make sense. The SH picks the ball up and kicks it in one action, there is no chance a defender would get a tackle in before the ball is kicked unless a SH is sooo slow, if that was the case they wouldn't be a pro. Similar to a pass, nobody really tries to charge and tackle the SH when he passes from the base, the chances of catching the player in possession is so remote, it isn't worth it.
If the SH is picking the ball up and taking 2 or 3 steps before passing or kicking then it's right thing to do, you have a chance of getting the guy in possession.

1 - I'm sure they probably charged at him more than just when he was kicking, but if not then it's still an attempt at disrupting his kick, by either blocking the kick or tackling him before completion. Either way the point still stands that it's clearly to disrupt his game (not by breaking his leg before anyone goes there)
2 - Greig Laidlaw. That's all. Smile

but to be fair if the SH is in any way in doubt about what he's doing then two large opposition players putting pressure on him. Granted it might not always work, but if there is a chance that it'll disrupt their game and as you say they end up taking two or three steps to get a bit more space then it's worth a shot no?

by **RDW** Thu 19 Jan - 17:11

Well aside from all this heated debate it is worth saying that this is the 7 year anniversary of us losing a genuine rugby legend - the great Bill McLaren.

https://vimeo.com/200151676

Watch and enjoy! He is sorely missed.

by the-goon Thu 19 Jan - 17:21

EWT Spoons wrote:
the-goon wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:
the-goon wrote:I think it's a grey area, and we are talking about split seconds between a late and legal tackle. The sanction is there, so I don't think law changes have much merit.

Looking at it from CM's perspective, he is being tackled when he is at his most vunerable ( one leg, back turned and twisting his body) when boxing kicking, and the tacklers don't really have a chance of stopping the kick.

So from the defensive side, where is the gain? The ref could easily call a late tackle, and that is a pen where the ball lands. If he dummies and snipes, it will be to the otherside of the ruck because that is the direction he is facing, niether Gray and Strauss would get to him. If he passes either direction, you're not getting the ball, and then you are a man short in defence by commiting. Glasgow only send a man into tackle the SH when he is shaping to kick rather than every ruck, so what was the logic? How many dummy box kicks have you seen?

I'd guess it's primarily psychological, in that Murray know's every time he get's the ball at the back of the ruck he's going to be tackled, whether he's kicking or not. This I would imagine would be used to make sure he doesn't have time to think clearly about what he is going to do with the ball and hopefully make a mistake.

On the day it didn't work as Munster won the game, but as a tactic of stopping the scrum half from having an age on the ball to dictate play it does make sense.

Also with the sniping, I think Gray had one side and Strauss the other, so in theory if he snipes he's going to face one of them. Now I've not watched the whole game but from the clips you posted earlier that would seem to be the case.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's my interpretation

1st bold. The "in your face" is valid, but they only charge at him when he a shaping to kick, so it does seem to be a tactic to target a kicking SH only. The point Murray is raising is the fact the SH is at their most vunerable then. Is the tactic unnecessarily dangerous? What would be the reaction if the Tigers did that to Price, and injured him after the ball was kicked?

2nd bold. That doesn't really make sense. The SH picks the ball up and kicks it in one action, there is no chance a defender would get a tackle in before the ball is kicked unless a SH is sooo slow, if that was the case they wouldn't be a pro. Similar to a pass, nobody really tries to charge and tackle the SH when he passes from the base, the chances of catching the player in possession is so remote, it isn't worth it.
If the SH is picking the ball up and taking 2 or 3 steps before passing or kicking then it's right thing to do, you have a chance of getting the guy in possession.

1 - I'm sure they probably charged at him more than just when he was kicking, but if not then it's still an attempt at disrupting his kick, by either blocking the kick or tackling him before completion. Either way the point still stands that it's clearly to disrupt his game (not by breaking his leg before anyone goes there)
2 - Greig Laidlaw. That's all. but to be fair if the SH is in any way in doubt about what he's doing then two large opposition players putting pressure on him. Granted it might not always work, but if there is a chance that it'll disrupt their game and as you say they end up taking two or three steps to get a bit more space then it's worth a shot no?

1. yeah, I think goal is to disrupt rather than injure, and I'm not opening that can worms (except for a bit of a wind up/bants on the Intl thread). How i'm looking at it is taking out intent, and seeing if the tactic potentially unnecessarily dangerous. It the similar with chest high tackles that slip up, the intent isn't to hit the head, but it happens. Do we need to enforce the laws more strictly so that SHs are not tackled in a unnecessarily dangerous way when kicking?

2. I'm not his biggest fan, but even he isn't THAT bad, right? right? I think this would be where the duty of care is on the tackler, if the SH is taking 2 or 3 steps, go for the tackle. If he isn't and passes/kicks, pull out. In open play, if the ball is gone, you can't tackle someone, it's a late tackle. I think if the ref pinged both of these instances for late tackles I doubt there would be too many complaints, as long as the ref was consistant. I mean neither had hope of stopping the kick.

Something to ponder.

by **George Carlin** Thu 19 Jan - 17:36

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well aside from all this heated debate it is worth saying that this is the 7 year anniversary of us losing a genuine rugby legend - the great Bill McLaren.

https://vimeo.com/200151676

Watch and enjoy! He is sorely missed.

Oh wow, that made my evening. Beautiful man, sadly missed.

by **RDW** Fri 20 Jan - 7:59

According to the BBC Glasgow have offered a contract to Jones for when the Stormers season ends in October.

This wouldn't be ideal as they'd be short in the centre for the first few months of the season, plus he'll have to do the season and a half that all Super Rugby players end up doing when they move to Europe.

They also say that Hastings had been offered a contract too.

by aucklandlaurie Fri 20 Jan - 8:13

Sin é wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Has Murray accused coaches of telling their players to inure a player? That's an extremely strong accusation to level at a fellow professional.

Surely this accusation will be followed up by the powers that be? If he is correct then the coaches accused should be banned.

No, he hasn't.

What he has said that this tactic is dangerous.

Here is the relevant bit of what he actually said.

“I’m properly p*ssed off about that. I don’t see any benefit in charging down someone’s standing leg. I only see it as a danger or as a potential to get injured.

“I don’t think it’s a good tactic. You could put another label on that type of tactic, but they did it to us at Thomond Park, they got our scrum-half Te (Aihe Toma) with it in the league game and they almost got me a couple of times.

“So, luckily my leg came out of the ground and I managed to fall over, but if my leg stayed in the ground — especially in that surface — you’re looking at syndesmosis, you’re looking at cruciate (ligament).

“I’m not blaming the players. I don’t know who told them to do it but it’s dangerous. It’s very dangerous and thankfully I didn’t get injured but if I had have been injured I would have been going on more of a rant.”

This type of tackle needs to be outlawed and then the refs can penalise for it.

What is it with this lot? Everytime some one tackles tackles an Irish player their are calls for cards, citations, or demands for law changes to incurr more cards, and citations.

The Irish truely are the Whingers of International Rugby.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 20 Jan - 8:20

Every tackle or just the ones they find dangerous or are actually against the laws?

by EWT Spoons Fri 20 Jan - 8:48

I hope Jones moves to Glasgow, I mean I would have liked him at Edinburgh, but if he moves to Glasgow, Edinburgh might be able to poach one of their centres.

Mind you knowing our luck we'll end up with Ritchie Vernon (playing for Currie this weekend if anyone is interested)

by **BigGee** Fri 20 Jan - 9:04

Cummings, Vernon and Matt Smith all making injury comebacks this weekend with run out for the premiership clubs. Good timing as they will be needed over the next few months with the internationalists away.

by MacKnocked-on Fri 20 Jan - 9:37

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Sin é wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Has Murray accused coaches of telling their players to inure a player? That's an extremely strong accusation to level at a fellow professional.

Surely this accusation will be followed up by the powers that be? If he is correct then the coaches accused should be banned.

No, he hasn't.

What he has said that this tactic is dangerous.

Here is the relevant bit of what he actually said.

“I’m properly p*ssed off about that. I don’t see any benefit in charging down someone’s standing leg. I only see it as a danger or as a potential to get injured.

“I don’t think it’s a good tactic. You could put another label on that type of tactic, but they did it to us at Thomond Park, they got our scrum-half Te (Aihe Toma) with it in the league game and they almost got me a couple of times.

“So, luckily my leg came out of the ground and I managed to fall over, but if my leg stayed in the ground — especially in that surface — you’re looking at syndesmosis, you’re looking at cruciate (ligament).

“I’m not blaming the players. I don’t know who told them to do it but it’s dangerous. It’s very dangerous and thankfully I didn’t get injured but if I had have been injured I would have been going on more of a rant.”

This type of tackle needs to be outlawed and then the refs can penalise for it.

What is it with this lot? Everytime some one tackles tackles an Irish player their are calls for cards, citations, or demands for law changes to incurr more cards, and citations.

The Irish truely are the Whingers of International Rugby.

Murray and Simon Zebo are certainly not averse to a double tackle if press reports a couple of years ago are to be believed...

by funnyExiledScot Fri 20 Jan - 9:46

RDW_Scotland wrote:According to the BBC Glasgow have offered a contract to Jones for when the Stormers season ends in October.

This wouldn't be ideal as they'd be short in the centre for the first few months of the season, plus he'll have to do the season and a half that all Super Rugby players end up doing when they move to Europe.

They also say that Hastings had been offered a contract too.

So Glasgow are to get Jones, one of the brightest stars of Scottish rugby to add to an already glittering backline, and Hastings, one of our brightest prospects.

Edinburgh anyone? Or do we think we can build a successful team with Duncan Weir, a Glasgow reject, and Chris Dean (the next "Alan Bulloch")?

by funnyExiledScot Fri 20 Jan - 9:47

George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Well aside from all this heated debate it is worth saying that this is the 7 year anniversary of us losing a genuine rugby legend - the great Bill McLaren.

https://vimeo.com/200151676

Watch and enjoy! He is sorely missed.
Oh wow, that made my evening. Beautiful man, sadly missed.

Wonderful. The voice of the 5 Nations.

by **RDW** Fri 20 Jan - 9:48

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:According to the BBC Glasgow have offered a contract to Jones for when the Stormers season ends in October.

This wouldn't be ideal as they'd be short in the centre for the first few months of the season, plus he'll have to do the season and a half that all Super Rugby players end up doing when they move to Europe.

They also say that Hastings had been offered a contract too.

So Glasgow are to get Jones, one of the brightest stars of Scottish rugby to add to an already glittering backline, and Hastings, one of our brightest prospects.

Edinburgh anyone? Or do we think we can build a successful team with Duncan Weir, a Glasgow reject, and Chris Dean (the next "Alan Bulloch")?

Don't be so greedy - we did sign an All Black in the centre remember!

by Hazel Sapling Fri 20 Jan - 9:51

BigGee wrote:Cummings, Vernon and Matt Smith all making injury comebacks this weekend with run out for the premiership clubs. Good timing as they will be needed over the next few months with the internationalists away.

Good news on Cummings and Vernon though Vernon probably could do with a change in fitness regime. He can't stay healthy at the moment. Cummings was my dark horse before the season to get into the 6 nations squad. He will make a proper boiler room with Brian and hopefully Peterson will be ready as well through the next 3 months.

Smith I did not know was injured but will come in handy if Favaro is away and Fusaro is injured.

Djustice
MacArthur
Puafisi
Cummings
Brian
Wynne
Smith
Ashe

Pyrgos/Hart
Clegg
Jones
Johnson
Grigg
Junior
Murchie

Malcolm
Bhatti
Rae
Peterson
Fagerson
Kenatale
Lyle/Schulte
Lamont

Pretty decent side. Is there any news on Blake? I thought he was out 3 months from October so he ought to be due back soon right?

by **RDW** Fri 20 Jan - 9:55

Hazel Sapling wrote:
BigGee wrote:Cummings, Vernon and Matt Smith all making injury comebacks this weekend with run out for the premiership clubs. Good timing as they will be needed over the next few months with the internationalists away.

Good news on Cummings and Vernon though Vernon probably could do with a change in fitness regime. He can't stay healthy at the moment. Cummings was my dark horse before the season to get into the 6 nations squad. He will make a proper boiler room with Brian and hopefully Peterson will be ready as well through the next 3 months.

Smith I did not know was injured but will come in handy if Favaro is away and Fusaro is injured.

Djustice
MacArthur
Puafisi
Cummings
Brian
Wynne
Smith
Ashe

Pyrgos/Hart
Clegg
Jones
Johnson
Grigg
Junior
Murchie

Malcolm
Bhatti
Rae
Peterson
Fagerson
Kenatale
Lyle/Schulte
Lamont

Pretty decent side. Is there any news on Blake? I thought he was out 3 months from October so he ought to be due back soon right?

Really??

Front 5 looks strong but that is a very inexperienced back row and a rank average backline. Glasgow are hit very hard in international breaks and the team you have listed has confirmed they they just don't have the strength in depth that they used to have!

by **BigGee** Fri 20 Jan - 9:57

The news reels have been eerily quiet on the subject of Blake. I don't think we will be seeing him again. With Favaro, Fusaro, Smith and Fargerson around now, we won't miss him either.

Odd business all the same, I wonder what did go on?

by funnyExiledScot Fri 20 Jan - 9:59

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:According to the BBC Glasgow have offered a contract to Jones for when the Stormers season ends in October.

This wouldn't be ideal as they'd be short in the centre for the first few months of the season, plus he'll have to do the season and a half that all Super Rugby players end up doing when they move to Europe.

They also say that Hastings had been offered a contract too.

So Glasgow are to get Jones, one of the brightest stars of Scottish rugby to add to an already glittering backline, and Hastings, one of our brightest prospects.

Edinburgh anyone? Or do we think we can build a successful team with Duncan Weir, a Glasgow reject, and Chris Dean (the next "Alan Bulloch")?

Don't be so greedy - we did sign an All Black in the centre remember!

IRB International U21 Player of the Year no less.

It still bothers me that the other Kiwis to have won that award (or its successor award) are:

Ritchie McCaw, Jerome Kaino, Luke Braid, Aaron Cruden and Julian Savea.

We got Atiga.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 20 Jan - 9:59

BigGee wrote:The news reels have been eerily quiet on the subject of Blake. I don't think we will be seeing him again. With Favaro, Fusaro, Smith and Fargerson around now, we won't miss him either.

Odd business all the same, I wonder what did go on?

If we were to lose Hardie, I'd welcome Blake back with open arms.

by **BigGee** Fri 20 Jan - 10:01

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:
BigGee wrote:Cummings, Vernon and Matt Smith all making injury comebacks this weekend with run out for the premiership clubs. Good timing as they will be needed over the next few months with the internationalists away.

Good news on Cummings and Vernon though Vernon probably could do with a change in fitness regime. He can't stay healthy at the moment. Cummings was my dark horse before the season to get into the 6 nations squad. He will make a proper boiler room with Brian and hopefully Peterson will be ready as well through the next 3 months.

Smith I did not know was injured but will come in handy if Favaro is away and Fusaro is injured.

Djustice
MacArthur
Puafisi
Cummings
Brian
Wynne
Smith
Ashe

Pyrgos/Hart
Clegg
Jones
Johnson
Grigg
Junior
Murchie

Malcolm
Bhatti
Rae
Peterson
Fagerson
Kenatale
Lyle/Schulte
Lamont

Pretty decent side. Is there any news on Blake? I thought he was out 3 months from October so he ought to be due back soon right?

Really??

Front 5 looks strong but that is a very inexperienced back row and a rank average backline. Glasgow are hit very hard in international breaks and the team you have listed has confirmed they they just don't have the strength in depth that they used to have!

Hopefully we will get a few back from the Scotland squad to bolster the team a bit. Its better than it was in the autumn, but no doubt a bit of a drop off. The only positive is that most other teams should be weaker as well (other than Edinburgh obviously!)

by Hazel Sapling Fri 20 Jan - 11:25

BigGee wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:
BigGee wrote:Cummings, Vernon and Matt Smith all making injury comebacks this weekend with run out for the premiership clubs. Good timing as they will be needed over the next few months with the internationalists away.

Good news on Cummings and Vernon though Vernon probably could do with a change in fitness regime. He can't stay healthy at the moment. Cummings was my dark horse before the season to get into the 6 nations squad. He will make a proper boiler room with Brian and hopefully Peterson will be ready as well through the next 3 months.

Smith I did not know was injured but will come in handy if Favaro is away and Fusaro is injured.

Djustice
MacArthur
Puafisi
Cummings
Brian
Wynne
Smith
Ashe

Pyrgos/Hart
Clegg
Jones
Johnson
Grigg
Junior
Murchie

Malcolm
Bhatti
Rae
Peterson
Fagerson
Kenatale
Lyle/Schulte
Lamont

Pretty decent side. Is there any news on Blake? I thought he was out 3 months from October so he ought to be due back soon right?

Really??

Front 5 looks strong but that is a very inexperienced back row and a rank average backline. Glasgow are hit very hard in international breaks and the team you have listed has confirmed they they just don't have the strength in depth that they used to have!

Hopefully we will get a few back from the Scotland squad to bolster the team a bit. Its better than it was in the autumn, but no doubt a bit of a drop off. The only positive is that most other teams should be weaker as well (other than Edinburgh obviously!)

Grigg is pretty good and Johnson has started plenty of Euro games ahead of Bennett. Wings I am happy with. Not top notch but Hughes is injured. I like Junior. Scores plenty of tries. Lamont is experienced and Lyle won't let us down in the centres.

Murchie is a big step down but there is no one else at the moment. Clegg is serviceable at 10. SH is a bit of a s**t show.

As for the back row, I expect 1 of Harley, Wilson and Strauss back most games. They would all slot in at 6/8. Fusaro may be healthy for a game or two as well. Changes that back row. I have assumed worst case scenario.

by IanBru Fri 20 Jan - 15:20

OK, as it's Friday, here's a quick quiz:

1. Which Scottish rugby player and occasional international has played Racing 92 eight times, and was victorious on five occasions.

2. Which two Scotland international players scored their first tries for Scotland before scoring for their club?

3. Which two Scotland international stand-offs have fewer points scored than they have caps?

4. Which six players received their first caps for Scotland in 2016?

5. Who received his first and 100th cap against Samoa?

6. Who was capped first for Scotland - Richie Gray or Richie Vernon?

by Hazel Sapling Fri 20 Jan - 15:25

Most of these complete guesses

1) Swinson
2) Ashe and Gilchrist
3) Russell
4) Bradbury, H Jones, Price, Allan, Dell and Hoyland
5) S Lamont
6) Vernon

by tigertattie Fri 20 Jan - 15:29

IanBru wrote:OK, as it's Friday, here's a quick quiz:

1. Which Scottish rugby player and occasional international has played Racing 92 eight times, and was victorious on five occasions.

2. Which two Scotland international players scored their first tries for Scotland before scoring for their club?

3. Which Scotland international stand-off has fewer points scored than he has caps?

4. Which six players received their first caps for Scotland in 2016?

5. Who received his first and 100th cap against Samoa?

6. Who was capped first for Scotland - Richie Gray or Richie Vernon?

1. Squashed goblin?
2. Sean Maitland and Jonny Grey?
3. Meatball?
4. Zoo Zander. Jones, Dell, Price, Allan and Sutherland?
5. Sir Sean of Lamont?
6. Ritchie V surely?

by funnyExiledScot Fri 20 Jan - 15:29

I'd have gone with Godman for 3.

by IanBru Fri 20 Jan - 15:36

Hazel Sapling wrote:
3) Russell

Correct, though not the answer I was looking for - Question 3 now amended. We're looking for TWO!

by Hazel Sapling Fri 20 Jan - 15:45

IanBru wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:
3) Russell
Correct, though not the answer I was looking for - Question 3 now amended. We're looking for TWO!

Get in! Figured he had not really had many kicking outings because of Laidlaw. Weir tends to want to kick (and was considered a decent kicker at one point). I would say Heathcote could be the other but if he kicked a penalty that would have been enough.

I will go with Greig Tonks.

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