Ulster 2016/2017

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Well the danger is always that life happens and he might refocus his entire life after two years in France.... were he to go.

Ulster simply not clinical enough, this game should have already been won for them.

Good try but Cave certainly was taken high...

eirebilly wrote:Good try but Cave certainly was taken high...

And a Bordeaux player clearly ran into the maul from the side

eirebilly wrote:Good try but Cave certainly was taken high...

We received a yellow and conceded a penalty try for much less.

Rory

Not his Best moment. Glad he saw the funny side though.

Cave hasn't been good. I've lost count of the amount of times he has given the ball away.

Quite fortunate to escape with that, given the new directives.

Under the new laws, Trimble and McCloskey could possibly have both seen yellow. Good refereeing in my mind. He is consistent since he didn't yellow for the high tackle in Cave's try.

eirebilly wrote:Under the new laws, Trimble and McCloskey could possibly have both seen yellow. Good refereeing in my mind. He is consistent since he didn't yellow for the high tackle in Cave's try.

I think Trimble should have been carded, certainly. That was pretty bad.

It wasn't great but I like it when referee's use common sense and are consistent

Ulster tactic A: pop the ball inside over and over, hope it results in a break.
Ulster tactic B: give the ball to McCloskey/Henderson
Ulster tactic C: use Piutau if he is looking interested

Some definite coaching changes for Ulster required. Moments in that match showed that Ulster are a very talented side but just lacking that extra bit of direction.

Consistency of reffing within a game isnt much good. Players need consistency across all games. That game was lacking three maybe four yellows

eirebilly wrote:Some definite coaching changes for Ulster required. Moments in that match showed that Ulster are a very talented side but just lacking that extra bit of direction.

I don't think there was that much talent on display today at all.

I sure saw enough talent out there to see that Ulster have a potentially good side. Just feel they are being coached too conservatively.

Anyways, on to the Munster match soon.

I thought cave was pretty woeful. Henry should be captain as well as he's normally in the middle of things. Overall it was pretty poor. This will be the first year in over 20 years I won't be attending an ulster game home or away and after watching all season I think it's money well saved.

Kingshu wrote:Did say that John Andrew, Herron, Kane, Lyttle, Matt Rea, Stockdale, David Shanahan and Treadwell all are registered and are all young enough that they should start if fit.

Doesn't matter of we lose playing youngsters, as we may uncover someone ready for more games and the experience will stand them all in good stead.

Disappointed we didn't can understand if its on the back of selling season tickets for next year, build winning mentality etc, but we cannot name a strong team and then lose, that is  a worse case scenario.

Wholeheartedly agree.

But will go one better. The truly worst case scenario is in the few youngsters you do pick in Simpson and Shanahan you sub at at 30 mins and half time. Nothing like ruining a lad's confidence for a nothing game which we went on to lose anyway and means absolutely nothing.

Move Les Kiss upstairs, get a head coach in who is a head coach. Cockerill?

It annoys me Leinster have Lancaster currently and Henry in the past. I would happily have cockerill. He'd add some grit to the pack. Who else is available?

toml wrote:Move Les Kiss upstairs, get a head coach in who is a head coach. Cockerill?

I don't get this Joe Schmidt wasn't a head coach when he moved to Leinster, he was asst. coach for Clermont, however Matt O'Connor was head coach of Leicester, and we know who did a better job, there are plenty of people in their first head coaching role that make a success of it.

Anyway Kiss is Director of Rugby, Neil Doak is head coach.
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/staff.php#.WIOiw5OLSi4

If we think back to last year, when Leinster were struggling under Leo, and Munster under Foley, these two looked at Kiss with envy.

I really don't think he has been given a fair crack yet, I believe it is the coaching set up that needs changed not just the personal, backs coach, forwards coach, Defence Coach, Scrum Coach, specialised coaches rather than the roles we currently have of Director of Rugby, Head Coach and Assistant Coach
We appear to have less coaches than Leinster and Munster also.

I think keeping Kiss as Director of Rugby
then having a backs coach, forwards coach, Defence Coach, Scrum Coach, etc, and if we can also get a Lancaster like senior/head coach then perfect.

Redman wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Did say that John Andrew, Herron, Kane, Lyttle, Matt Rea, Stockdale, David Shanahan and Treadwell all are registered and are all young enough that they should start if fit.

Doesn't matter of we lose playing youngsters, as we may uncover someone ready for more games and the experience will stand them all in good stead.

Disappointed we didn't can understand if its on the back of selling season tickets for next year, build winning mentality etc, but we cannot name a strong team and then lose, that is  a worse case scenario.

Wholeheartedly agree.  

But will go one better.  The truly worst case scenario is in the few youngsters you do pick in Simpson and Shanahan you sub at at 30 mins and half time.  Nothing like ruining a lad's confidence for a nothing game which we went on to lose anyway and means absolutely nothing.  

I dont see how leaving Simpson on would do his confidence good when he was being schooled at every scrum, it wasnt just his confidence that was at risk leaving him on but his fitness and the fitness of everyone in the pack with the way Bordeaux were driving through

Also Shanahan was pulled at half time last week too, seems to be more a tactic than anything

Question.

Is their any forseeable outcome this season that might see even Kiss being forced out? Or is he totally immune?
Geoff has said Piutau has a get out clause if we don't qualify for Europe. And let's be honest, he could get a MUCH bigger pay packet for a year now than what Wasps or Ulster gave him.

So would failing to qualify be the straw that breaks the camel's back? Or is Kiss safe regardless?

Ten games left. How many can we afford to lose??

And in terms of qualification for Europe, you can forget blooding youngsters. The stakes are too high. Best XV every week.

Bryn Cunningham:

"What is being produced on the pitch is just not good enough."

"But I refuse to believe we are a not good enough squad."

Seems like Bryn is pointing the finger of blame at the coaches. Couldn't agree more, Bryn.

The next 7 are very winnable especially with the returning players including a debut for Coetzee in the next match. That should make a diffetence.
I think we can qualify for Europ, Piutau would likely stay regardless. The thing is, the more I see of him the more I think he's not a good fit for Ulster. Individually he's world class but we don't need individuals, we need solid units playing as a team. I wouldn't mind saying bye bye to him if we could further strengthen our pack.

Pete330v2 wrote:The next 7 are very winnable especially with the returning players including a debut for Coetzee in the next match. That should make a diffetence.
I think we can qualify for Europ, Piutau would likely stay regardless. The thing is, the more I see of him the more I think he's not a good fit for Ulster. Individually he's world class but we don't need individuals, we need solid units playing as a team. I wouldn't mind saying bye bye to him if we could further strengthen our pack.

I'd agree there. Commentators today were going doo-lally about him when all he did was hop from foot to foot. He made maybe a few yards, it was hardly a line break.

But also, I disagree that he would stay regardless. He was hugely impressive at Wasps, and everyone saw it. He's here purely for a paycheck before going back for All Blacks. So for that reason, I believe he would be more than happy to see a bidding war for his one year contract.

If Piutau farted, the commentators would laud it as superbly skilled move.

I can't say he's not a good fit. Not yet. I suppose I could say he's not a good fit under the current coaching at Ulster. That said; I would exchange him for more grunt in the pack.

I still think we will make the top 6, but that's not a given. We can't afford to lose any of the next run of games.

Correct me if im wrong but we also have to finish higher than Connacht?

We don't have to. All four Provinces can qualify, as they did last season, but we do need that top 6 finish.

The current top 4 will make top 6.

After 13 games:

(1) Ospreys                                49

(2) Munster Rugby                      46 (Played 12)

(3) Leinster Rugby                      46

(4) Glasgow Warriors                   41


We will be battling the rest:


(5) Scarlets                                 40

(6) Ulster Rugby                          33 (Played 12)

(7) Cardiff Blues                           27 (Doubt Cardiff will be in the running)

(8) Connacht Rugby                      21 (Played 12)

I kind of hope wins against Edinburgh, Zebre and Treviso don't take the heat off. Or you know, paper over the cracks.

I'm just hoping we win against Edinburgh, Clive.

It would be really hard to put a gloss on this seasons performances, although I'm sure they will try. It's the worst we have been for a long time, and it's obvious to all that we are regressing. That regression started before the arrival of Kiss, but it has been more pronounced since his arrival.

A run of wins, and qualifying in the top 6, will give us all a lift, as will the arrival of Coetzee, but this seasons failings will live long in the memory. If something drastic isn't done to revamp the coaching staff and structure, then I believe Ulster will be damaged for years.

Normally Id say I hope the players are in every day over the next few weeks before Edinburgh to improve things but maybe time away from the coaches will actually make them play better

Bryn's interview for those who didn't hear it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38708041?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_sport_ni&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=northern_ireland

Bryn sounds really cut up about the loss, and I'm sure the players are. As Bryn said; "things have got to change", just before he talked about poor defense and poor handling. We are poor across the board right now, with the possible exception of the driving maul.

On a lot of other boards and maybe here a lot of people have been pointing to Kiss's failings as a defensive coach and Ireland defence has improved since he left and Ulsters is now terrible.

I actually though Ulsters defence has been poor but looking into it Ulster still have the 3rd best defence in the league, for Points conceded (191), only Ospreys (183) and Munster (155) have conceded less,
For tries against we are pretty good as well, (23), Ospreys and Scarlets have both conceded (22) and Munster (17)
For having lost 5 games compared to Scarlets 4, Ospreys 3 and Munsters 2, its not bad.

The best comparable team is Glasgow above us but having also lost 5, and we have conceded 63 less points and 6 less tries.

Overall its not all doom and gloom where defence is concerned.
It our blunt attack which has let us down, (Attack wasn't Kiss's speciality and shows that this is where we need a specialised Coach).

For Points scored we are we are 8th and tries scored 8th also.

To compare to Glasgow again, they have score 13 more tries and 77 more points.

Or to compare us the the average of the top 4
PF 343 PA 204 TF 45 TA 24
Ulster
PF 235 PA 191 TF 29 TA 23

Looking at the stats, our defence is exactly where it should be. It attack that is letting us down.

We can defend as a team like a top 4 team, but we cannot create the platforms to attack and are like a bottom 3rd of the league team in this regard. in short we are simply not scoring enough tries, we certainly have one of (if not the) best Backlines in the League but are currently not showing it.

We know the backrow, is our weakness.
Maybe the old adage of forwards win games and backs decide by how much, is true.

Munchkin wrote:Bryn Cunningham:

"What is being produced on the pitch is just not good enough."

"But I refuse to believe we are a not good enough squad."

Seems like Bryn is pointing the finger of blame at the coaches. Couldn't agree more, Bryn.

He is the one responsible for the squad so he would say that wouldn't he?

He also said he couldn't wait for Marcel to come into the team with the sort of desperation that reminded me of Keegan's famous rant against Man U. In other words there is no depth that can cope with top line injuries - that's a squad issue. He also said there are academy players coming through with a real edge, but obviously not a real enough edge to actually get into the team - another squad issue!

When he said that the players need to start doing what had been talked about last week and again this week, that didn't particularly sound like he was pointing the finger at the coaches.

One thing that we can all agree on - what is being produced on the pitch is not good enough.

How can the squad be good enough when, for a good portion of the season, we are fielding the following pack:

1) Black
2) Herring
3) Herbst
4) Browne
5) vdM
6) Ross/Diack
7) Reidy
8) Wilson

Are there any adequate ball carriers in that pack? Browne is probably the best one there. Anyone who can boss the breakdown? Any pace? In the backline our depth isn't even as good as we thought. Without Jackson we are screwed. Shanahan could be good but he lacks confidence and experience. We will have to cut our losses and give him good game-time to bring him up to speed but that won't happen. After yesterday Marshall will be given the permanent nod.

This isn't a mutually exclusive problem either by the way - the coaching is currently crap and the squad is inadequate. But we can dump coaches 'til the cows come home, as we have been doing already. It isn't going to change much. I think Kiss deserves a chance to bring his own team into the coaching setup, something completely new and completely fresh.

I actually felt that Shanahan played ok, thought he got a lot of bad service which will affect any 9 but thought he provided some very quick service.

eirebilly wrote:I actually felt that Shanahan played ok, thought he got a lot of bad service which will affect any 9 but thought he provided some very quick service.

I agree, he just needs consistent game-time and the confidence to weed out the errors. However, this is Ulster so he will be dropped for a couple of mistakes, despite the fact the experienced members of the squad (such as Marshall) make these errors quite regularly themselves.

I certainly saw enough in him yesterday to convince me to give him a good run of matches. He reacted very well to the errors he made from the bad service he received, he did not get flustered.

Age is a big factor here, so Shanahan should probably be preferred, but I wonder do us Ulster supporters get too hopeful about youngsters, or cut them too much slack.

If Marshall had been the one involved in those incidents in first half, would we really be on here talking about the 'bad service', or would we be asking for him to be crucified?

Obviously Marshall's time is gone. But what I'm seeing here is a see-saw of posts going from talking about our poor squad and players not being good enough, to other posts making excuses for a player and talking about how he will learn from it and should be given time.

Take this example (40 mins in), poor service, but he almost throws an intercept. He also lost some time by wanting to pass of his right hand rather than left. I just don't think the ineptitude of Marshall should interfere with us calling a spade a spade with Shanahan. Hopefully Cooney will be a significant step up from both.

As a neutral in this clive, I thought that Shanahan played well. He is only young, yes, but there is something there in him. Not bigging him up or making excuses, just feel he could benefit greatly from a decent run at 9 for Ulster. All signs point to him improving with more exposure.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Bryn Cunningham:

"What is being produced on the pitch is just not good enough."

"But I refuse to believe we are a not good enough squad."

Seems like Bryn is pointing the finger of blame at the coaches. Couldn't agree more, Bryn.

He is the one responsible for the squad so he would say that wouldn't he?

He also said he couldn't wait for Marcel to come into the team with the sort of desperation that reminded me of Keegan's famous rant against Man U. In other words there is no depth that can cope with top line injuries - that's a squad issue. He also said there are academy players coming through with a real edge, but obviously not a real enough edge to actually get into the team - another squad issue!

When he said that the players need to start doing what had been talked about last week and again this week, that didn't particularly sound like he was pointing the finger at the coaches.

One thing that we can all agree on - what is being produced on the pitch is not good enough.

Bryn did say that the pack needs more grunt, if not in those words, but he's also getting at the coaching, even if not directly.

Nobody is arguing against the fact that we do need to strengthen certain positions, such as the backrow, but I feel that's not enough to help us compete at the top. We need coaches who will help us compete at the top.

Agreed. What is being produced on the field is an embarrassment.

clivemcl wrote:Age is a big factor here, so Shanahan should probably be preferred, but I wonder do us Ulster supporters get too hopeful about youngsters, or cut them too much slack.

Imagine how good he would be and how much more experienced he would be if Pienaar had not blocked his development

I felt bad for Shananhan, and did say that Reidy's service to him was poor, which made him look really bad. Shananhan is young, and will learn, but I would be amazed if he ever makes international level. I see nothing in his play that comes close to suggesting that he will. At best, a strong squad player, methinks.

I guess we all see different thing Munch. I would not be hailing him as a potential international just yet but I saw something in him to suggest that there is plenty a good coach could work with.

eirebilly wrote:I guess we all see different thing Munch. I would not be hailing him as a potential international just yet but I saw something in him to suggest that there is plenty a good coach could work with.

If only we had a good coach

Munchkin wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I guess we all see different thing Munch. I would not be hailing him as a potential international just yet but I saw something in him to suggest that there is plenty a good coach could work with.

If only we had a good coach

If I were Ulster management, I would be sending a message out to Strings to see if he were able to work with Shanahan. Think Strings could really help him develop and hone his skills.