Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

Well the danger is always that life happens and he might refocus his entire life after two years in France.... were he to go.

marty2086 wrote:Bowe and Gilroy should be worried for their places, Stockdale just seems to keep getting better and looked like he had another gear for his try

I was very pleased with Stockdale. Think he already offers more than both of Gilroy and Bowe.

Still letting in Tries in the 1st 5 minutes - usually in the first 3. Also still struggling with re-starts and exit strategy. That's a coaching issue.

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Bowe and Gilroy should be worried for their places, Stockdale just seems to keep getting better and looked like he had another gear for his try

I was very pleased with Stockdale. Think he already offers more than both of Gilroy and Bowe.

He really does, he has more pace that Bowe though I think my granny does these too the way he was so easily outpaced tonight, looks solid in defence and seems strong in contact

Munchkin wrote:Still letting in Tries in the 1st 5 minutes - usually in the first 3. Also still struggling with re-starts and exit strategy. That's a coaching issue.

At the breakdown too, when we allowed them clean ball and got driven back over a few phases we looked in trouble and just seemed so passive

He had at least 3 players hanging off him and he still nearly made the Try. Very strong. I think he's probably faster than I thought he was. One of those players whose pace is deceptive.

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Still letting in Tries in the 1st 5 minutes - usually in the first 3. Also still struggling with re-starts and exit strategy. That's a coaching issue.

At the breakdown too, when we allowed them clean ball and got driven back over a few phases we looked in trouble and just seemed so passive

Agreed. It was a better first-half performance than we have seen in a while, but still so many issue's. Can only hope there a big changes in the coaching staff at the end of season.

Treadwell is looking good too, seems to have a fire in his belly that we need and puts himself about. Him and Henderson in the second row could be a good combination

Andrew had a decent game too, had a problem hooking the ball it seems and had a tired looking throw near the end Edinburgh turned over but otherwise a decent showing

It's simple, folks.

What we need are some coaches next season and with Botha and another IQ back row coming in, we'll be in clover.

We've no defence coach, and a backs and a forwards coach who don't speak. Sort that, and it will all look a lot rosier.

Agreed - Coetzee, Botha, Copeland, Reidy, Henry would not be too shabby.
Cooney is a lot better than some give him credit for

Bottomline is I think, unlike this year, we will have a much better balance squad.

Counts for squat if the coaching ticket isn't good enough.
Reluctantly I have moved into the Kiss out opinion - he is part of the problem, the other 2 must go - he probably should.

We are totally rudderless on the pitch.
Looks to me as if players are making it up as they go along because the coaching is non existant.
Did other notice only Kiss in the coaching box - Clarke and Doak nowhere in sight

We have players going down hill e.g. McCloskey is a total liability in defence, Dow seems to be slipping off the radar - coaching ?
Also when you see an old pro like Henry do something as stupid and in blind panic as that kick at the end you have to wonder what the hell is going on

Also we need leaders
After Edinburgh first try it was the new kid barking out the orders not the captain.
Also when he comes on Shanahan does more talking than all the old pros.
We need leaders and a sensible captain.
Trimble is a joke captain, Herring is poor, Henry was very poor last night.
Stuff the protocol which says it should be an IQ player - if the best captain is a foreigner give it to them.

Think Gilroy and Marshall will start next week as per Ireland directive.

So, hopefully, Pienaar, Nelson, Gilroy, Marshall, Cave/Olding, Stockdale, Ludik.
You need brains at 13 and that means Payne, Cave, Olding in that order - no one else should be considered

Reckon they will rest Charlie just in case

On another note Black is becoming a waste of space - has he retired already?
Thought Herbst looked decent when he came on.

So - any positives to take away (apart from 5 points)?

1) Nelson. Capable, calm. Couple of wayward passes, not great with the boot, but very, very reassuring. Every time he was on camera he was bellowing something at someone. Like the cut of his jib.

2) Shanahan. Came back after his European 'mare and delivered. Busy and aggressive.

3) Stockdale. Worried a bit about his decision-making, but that run with three Edinburgh players hanging off him was something else and deserved his try. Great performance.

4) Treadwell. Shaping up nicely.

5) the scrum. Started with out #3 loosehead, #3 hooker and #4 tighthead. Dominant all night, bar I think one scrum where Edinburgh got the nudge on.

6) Maul defence. Honestly thought we looked a lot more organised than recent showings. Edinburgh tried it a few times, and the ball always ended up having to go out to their backs, having stalled. Not perfect, but a step up.

7) No stupid yellow cards. Only a few stupid penalties.

Lots of very concerning elements to last night's performance. But equally, little flashes of what we could be with some actual coaches. Olding, Nelson, Coetzee, Alan O'Connor, Lutton all back from long periods of injury.

Also, for me, Cave and Ludik are the most underappreciated players in the squad.

One minor correction Warwick is above Black these days in the LH pecking order

Overall though agree with your post - you comment re Ludik and Cave is spot on

Nelson was out for 14 months. He last played for Ukater in 2015. Seriously, fair play.

Yeah, super impressed by Nelson, probably more so than anyone else. Suddenly I feel a lot more confident with Jackson playing for Ireland! Did Nelson play 10 much in his junior days? I always saw him as a particularly skilful 15 with the pace to play on the wing.

I think, as alluded to above, a lot of the backline is starting to pick itself:

9) Pienaar
10) Jackson
11) Piutau (much better on the wing)
12) Olding/Marshall
13) Payne/Cave
14) Fight between the rest
15) Ludik

geoff999rugby wrote:
We have players going down hill e.g. McCloskey is a total liability in defence, Dow seems to be slipping off the radar - coaching ?
Also when you see an old pro like Henry do something as stupid and in blind panic as that kick at the end you have to wonder what the hell is going on

Also we need leaders
After Edinburgh first try it was the new kid barking out the orders not the captain.
Also when he comes on Shanahan does more talking than all the old pros.
We need leaders and a sensible captain.
Trimble is a joke captain, Herring is poor, Henry was very poor last night.
Stuff the protocol which says it should be an IQ player - if the best captain is a foreigner give it to them.

geoff there was an advantage, while it wasnt a well executed kick from Henry it was the right thing to do in the situation. He was also doing plenty of barking himself and saw Marshall do a bit too especially after the second Edinburgh try

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, super impressed by Nelson, probably more so than anyone else. Suddenly I feel a lot more confident with Jackson playing for Ireland! Did Nelson play 10 much in his junior days? I always saw him as a particularly skilful 15 with the pace to play on the wing.

I think, as alluded to above, a lot of the backline is starting to pick itself:

9) Pienaar
10) Jackson
11) Piutau (much better on the wing)
12) Olding/Marshall
13) Payne/Cave
14) Fight between the rest
15) Ludik

14 is Trimble if fit

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
We have players going down hill e.g. McCloskey is a total liability in defence, Dow seems to be slipping off the radar - coaching ?
Also when you see an old pro like Henry do something as stupid and in blind panic as that kick at the end you have to wonder what the hell is going on

Also we need leaders
After Edinburgh first try it was the new kid barking out the orders not the captain.
Also when he comes on Shanahan does more talking than all the old pros.
We need leaders and a sensible captain.
Trimble is a joke captain, Herring is poor, Henry was very poor last night.
Stuff the protocol which says it should be an IQ player - if the best captain is a foreigner give it to them.

geoff there was an advantage, while it wasnt a well executed kick from Henry it was the right thing to do in the situation. He was also doing plenty of barking himself and saw Marshall do a bit too especially after the second Edinburgh try

Even if he knew there was an advantage, kicking was a bad choice - many a referee call advantage over when a kick is made.
Regardless of that taking a kick to the longest touchline is a terrible decision - an unnecessary risk.
In the huddles I saw Coetzee was calling the shots

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
We have players going down hill e.g. McCloskey is a total liability in defence, Dow seems to be slipping off the radar - coaching ?
Also when you see an old pro like Henry do something as stupid and in blind panic as that kick at the end you have to wonder what the hell is going on

Also we need leaders
After Edinburgh first try it was the new kid barking out the orders not the captain.
Also when he comes on Shanahan does more talking than all the old pros.
We need leaders and a sensible captain.
Trimble is a joke captain, Herring is poor, Henry was very poor last night.
Stuff the protocol which says it should be an IQ player - if the best captain is a foreigner give it to them.

geoff there was an advantage, while it wasnt a well executed kick from Henry it was the right thing to do in the situation. He was also doing plenty of barking himself and saw Marshall do a bit too especially after the second Edinburgh try

Even if he knew there was an advantage, kicking was a bad choice - many a referee call advantage over when a kick is made.
Regardless of that taking a kick to the longest touchline is a terrible decision - an unnecessary risk.
In the huddles I saw Coetzee was calling the shots

He kicked sideways though not many call advantage over there
Coetzee was doing some talking but there were a number of players who were, which is a good thing going forward

Anyone know what happened with McKenzie last night? Seemed quite innocuous when he him and Bowe collided and looked a bit like a dive when he went down

marty2086 wrote:Anyone know what happened with McKenzie last night? Seemed quite innocuous when he him and Bowe collided and looked a bit like a dive when he went down

It looked like whiplash which can be rather serious. It was entirely his own fault though and extremely stupid. He looked, saw Bowe and moved right into Bowes's line of running, coming off second best.

Whilst I obviously hope it's nothing serious, I do also hate the 'dark art' of blocking runners. He was walking backwards to interfere with Bowe's chase and he suffered for it.

Totally agree it was all his own doing thats why Id assumed he dived initially to milk it, surprised the TMO didn't call for an Ulster penalty though when he was watching it as it was blatant live

McKensie looked in a bad way, as did Allen. Bowe involved in both incidents, and neither were the fault of Bowe. McKensie was at fault, but I do hope he and Allen recover quickly. Allen looked badly concussed.

So frustrating watching Ulster play. We have the player talent not reaching close to their potential because of a lack of coaching talent, and some of that player talent is regressing because of it.

I haven't called for Kiss to go yet, but it's becoming obvious that he is part of the problem, as geoff said.

I don't think many coaches would manage this disaster. We can cycle through as many coaches as we like, but if it is true we have a backs and forwards coach who aren't speaking, that is obviously going to affect our performance on the pitch. The head coach can't be expected to come in and babysit the homegrown coaches. Kiss should be given the chance with his own coaching team.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't think many coaches would manage this disaster. We can cycle through as many coaches as we like, but if it is true we have a backs and forwards coach who aren't speaking, that is obviously going to affect our performance on the pitch. The head coach can't be expected to come in and babysit the homegrown coaches. Kiss should be given the chance with his own coaching team.

First and foremost I want Doak and Clarke gone, but things have got worse since the arrival of Kiss. right now I would be happy with just the replacement of Doak and Clarke though.

Sunday Times apparently reporting Jonno Gibbes to replace Doak as head coach.

Yes. Please.

Don Alfonso wrote:Sunday Times apparently reporting Jonno Gibbes to replace Doak as head coach.

Yes. Please.

He's was linked with Leinster a few seasons back, Connacht and now Ulster. He must really fancy some time in Ireland. He'd definately be a great addition.

Jonno Gibbes - yeah, sounds like a real prospect for Ulster if the story was true. But what's the need for Kiss then?

I still have a major issue with this 'Director' role that seems to have creeped in mainly from England.

SecretFly wrote:Jonno Gibbes - yeah, sounds like a real prospect for Ulster if the story was true.  But what's the need for Kiss then?

I still have a major issue with this 'Director' role that seems to have creeped in mainly from England.

At Ulster its a strange set up, Kiss has the DoR title but it seems he's essentially the head coach and the head coach title was given to Doak to keep him happy

Theres a touch of too good to be true about Gibbes coming in, he apparently has a clause allowing him to leave Clermont for a head coach role but you'd think he would want to be running the show then which could be a problem with Kiss in charge

Great news, if true.

His appointment would also confirm Clarke is going. We would still need a backs coach and defense coach.

Maybe Gibbes would take over as DoR once Kiss' contract is up?

That article says Doak and Clarke leaving no ifs no buts - that is the best news of the lot.
Did anyone else notice the absence of Doak and Clarke from the coaching box on Friday?

Cant see Gibbes being anything other than Head Coach

So if Kiss goes further upstairs - how does that work with Cunningham ?

On Cunningham got some criticism here regarding forwards he brought in as far as I am aware he is only responsible for Ah You, Botha and Coetzee.

The likes of Butterworth, Ross, de Merwe etc were wrapped up before he took up the post.

The journalist maybe doesn't say it because he has no basis, but maybe Kiss is going too? Would it be THAT crazy ?
I'd guess Clermont would have queried the get out clause. He might be getting the correct title, but let's be honest the clause was designed to say it was possible for him to leave if he was offered the opportunity to be IN CHARGE at another club? I'm sure Clermont would be puzzled if he's leaving to be second in command elsewhere.

Also, have things changed with the DOR role? Back when Humphreys was DOR, the face for the media was McLaughlin/Anscombes, but since Kiss became DOR, he has also been the man the media deal with mostly. I'd Doak is head coach, why was he not doing post match stuff like Ancombe and McLaughlin did?

clivemcl wrote: I'm sure Clermont would be puzzled if he's leaving to be second in command elsewhere.

All steps further along a prospective career.  Joe Schmidt isn't going to be Ireland coach forever - maybe Jonno Gibbes wants to place himself closer to being a replacement option.

I think it makes quite a lot of sense from Gibbs' perspective.

It's definitely a step up on paper, and somewhat in practise. It's a Head Coach position on his CV and if you are to take Hewett's opinion on the importance that brings in applying for future jobs it must be appealing to people who have long term aspirations in the game.

It's also coming back to a familiar setup that he knows. He knows the system with Leinster and is familiar to how Joe works. You'd think that would play well in D4.

For Gibbs it's a team that can only get better. There's just no way we can be as bad as what we currently are with the players we've got. From an outsiders perspective that must count for a lot because it takes the pressure off. It's as close to a sure thing for a new coach as they will find.

Next season if he gets us into the playoffs, he'll be seen as a success for turning a middling team around.

>TobeConfirmedToday<

Late night for you Munchkin!
Good news indeed then! Have Doak and Clarke gone already or taken the huff, or been banned from the control room during games?

clivemcl wrote:Late night for you Munchkin!
Good news indeed then! Have Doak and Clarke gone already or taken the huff, or been banned from the control room during games?

That is my belief.

Very strange that both were noticeable by their absence on Friday

geoff999rugby wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Late night for you Munchkin!
Good news indeed then! Have Doak and Clarke gone already or taken the huff, or been banned from the control room during games?

That is my belief.

Very strange that both were noticeable by their absence on Friday

I was at the game, not sure about Clarke but Doak was definitely at the ground he was taking the warm ups before hand

Maybe the two of them were on the naughty step or just offer nothing tactically so were told not to bother during the game

Its noticeable we showed a bit more variety in attack and were a bit more aggression at the breakdown

Clarke was watching beside Kiss at the game?

Super news about Gibbs if it is true.

Amazing performance by Piatau again. I do still think he is a luxury we can't afford when we already have so many high quality outside backs but by gees he is exciting to watch, just different class with the ball in hand.

Great debut from Coetzee and Stockdale was impressive again too.

Strong performances from Jackson and Gilroy at the weekend too to so there are chinks of light for the rest of the season and beyond.

Guys everytime they panned to the coaching box Kiss was on his own

I turned up a bit late so missed the warm up

I'll say it now next year we will be a better squad than this

Credible backrow, youngsters who will be much stronger
Even with Pienaar going I believe that is true.

Not saying we will world beaters - we wont but IF the coaching is good enough we can be competitive, at least in the Pro12

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