Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

First topic message reminder :

So Dhoni is gone.....amidst  lot of of glowing tributes...but we  suspect he was asked to go...his time was up quite sometime back.....and the BCCI did it in a nice way...
It's also being said that the Champions Trophy will be his retirement tournament if he performs vs Eng...else this might be his end series



Ind ODI squad: KL Rahul, Shikhar Dhawan, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni, Manish Pandey, Kedar Jadhav, Yuvraj Singh, Ajinkya Rahane, Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Amit Mishra, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Umesh Yadav


Ind T20I squad: KL Rahul, Mandeep Singh, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni (wk), Yuvraj Singh, Suresh Raina, Rishabh Pant (wk), Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Yuzvendra Chahal, Manish Pandey, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Ashish Nehra


for completeness sake here are the Eng squads




England ODI squad:
Moeen Ali, Jonny Bairstow, Jake Ball, Sam Billings, Jos Buttler, Liam Dawson, Alex Hales, Eoin Morgan(c), Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey, Chris Woakes,
England T20I squad:
Moeen Ali, Jake Ball, Sam Billings, Jos Buttler, Liam Dawson, Alex Hales, Chris Jordan, Tymal Mills, Eoin Morgan(c), Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey,

130 needed from 12 overs...

Can England maintain 11 an over?

msp83 wrote:Jadhav bowling an over too many it looks like. Kohli seems to think taking pace off is the way to go. But Jadeja is done and Ashwin is about to be. The seamers, Bumrah and Pandya have gone for plenty....... Bumrah, if he hits Yorkers right, will be difficult to get away, but will he trust Bhuvi to  do so? Or will he give a couple of overs to Yuvraj?

Oh wow - I hadn't realised that!

No more Ashwin or Jadeja gives England a good shout of doing this...

Not going quite quickly enough at the moment - will need a couple of big overs (high teens at least) soon otherwise the rate is just going to move too far away. 116 in 11 is getting towards being a tall order, especially without Buttler, Hales or Roy

There is not a great deal separating the 2 sides in terms of runs at the 40 over mark. But England have lost a few too many wickets.......

msp83 wrote:There is not a great deal separating the 2 sides in terms of runs at the 40 over mark. But England have lost a few too many wickets.......

I always think that the psychology of chasing makes it more difficult to have a beserk last 10 overs even if the two sides are level pegging at 40.

Its actually still possible form here isnt it.
The guy I was just rubbishing, and the captain I previously jokingly stried the pot about are doing just enough to keep tghme in with a sniff.

Even so, doubly with Buttler gone, its a lot of runs to get

Moeen lucky there! Dropped by Jadeja after hitting a skier.

England still needing around 11 an over - 100 off 9.

dummy_half wrote:

msp83 wrote:There is not a great deal separating the 2 sides in terms of runs at the 40 over mark. But England have lost a few too many wickets.......

I always think that the psychology of chasing makes it more difficult to have a beserk last 10 overs even if the two sides are level pegging at 40.

Equally it allows you to know how bererk to go. You could argue that England wouldve gone berserk earlier in the last game and couldve made even more had they known the cale of the Indian effort ...a nd that India may have batted more conservatively had they gone first.

It balances out, I think conditions are a bigger thing than the psychology and tactics.

Gooseberry

I agree that chasing allows you to pace an innings better. It's just I think that many batsmen get more tense when they know they have to chase 12 or so an over to reach a target than to set one - the difference between knowing you want to hit boundaries and that you NEED to hit them...

50 up for Moeen courtesy of some badly-needed boundaries.

England need 85 off 7...still need to be going around 12 an over.

Gonna be tight. Personally think England will fall just short. India's seamers managing to restrict our batsmen to 1s and 2s better than I thought.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!

Moeen gone! Bowled for 55 inside edge onto his stumps by Kumar.

Think thats game over for England. Momentum lost at a crucial time.

Unless Morgan can hit some more sixes, India will edge this by 20-30 runs.

I think in this situation I might have sent Plunkett in ahead of Woakes - a few big blows then out for say 25 off 9 would keep us more in the game.

We've been in the game most of the innings, but just always been a wicket or so behind.

Woakes 5 and out.

England 304-7. India will wrap this up with overs to spare and a victory margin of 50-60 runs.

So 73 of 30. Can Morgan do it?

Comes down to 61 of 23, Morgan still fighting on.......

msp83 wrote:Comes down to 61 of 23, Morgan still fighting on.......

Indian bowlers have done a good job of keeping him off strike though...

So just 15 an over in the last 3. Plunkett is smashing them, and Morgan holds the key....... This just isn't over yet. And even the umpires are getting worked up......

God this is tense!

Morgan somehow keeping England just about in this. Great support from Plunkett.

33 needed off the last 2 overs. Think India will just edge this by 10 runs or so.

Great fight back by England after India had them wobbling at 206-5.

Argh!

Morgan run out! That is now game over. Fantastic effort though. 5 sixes and 6 boundaries in his 102 (off just 81 balls).

That boundary of the last ball gives England a chance...... Will someone provide a Carlos Brathwaite moment?

Well congrats India (well mainly Singh and Dhoni). Fantastic innings by both players.

Valiant response by England but it proved just a bit too much. I hope they reflect that if they had bowled better they might well have won this.

Good job from Bhuvneshwar.......

The player of the match for me is not Yuvraj, not Dhoni, not Morgan. But Ravindra Jadeja!

Great effort to get that close, however India should have never been allowed to get 381 given the start!!

msp83 wrote:The player of the match for me is not Yuvraj, not Dhoni, not Morgan. But Ravindra Jadeja!

Hi Msp - interesting call. I understand it and always have a fondness for the player in the shadows but today my vote goes to Yuvraj.

15 run short today and about 20 odd runs short in game 1.....india a shade better on these shameful slog fest patta pitches.

India middle and lower middle order has clicked .....the icing on the cake would be if the openers also fire......i think rahane should come in for rahil next game...
And Mishra for Ashwin

Now, back to Yuvraj Singh and Mahendra Singh Dhoni. They both showed they still have it in them. Terrific from both the stalwarts. From 25-3, they completely transformed the game. The value of experience, and importantly at this stage of their career, the fine fitness.......

Exceptional innings by Morgan - shame he just didn't have the support needed to get England across the line

As others have said, the bowling was unacceptable. Dropping Rashid a massive mistake, removing all wicket taking threat in the middle overs for England

Still our batting is genuinely world class - and I wouldn't be surprised to see this as the final of the champions trophy this summer...

With the champions trophy to be held in England I wouldn't be surprised to see one or both of Broad and Anderson recalled. Both faded towards the end of the ODI careers (to date) but both are also far better bowlers than those currently in the side.

Mark Wood being fit would also make a huge difference for the ODI side. In the modern game of 3 different slower balls an over, wide of the stump yorkers, slow ball bouncers etc the simple skills such as being able to bowl a lethal bouncer, followed by a quick yorker have been forgotten. That's what Wood offers. He doesn't mess around whilst bowling. He runs in hard, bowls fast and accurately.

dyrewolfe wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:Yes.  Great batting ; but very disappointing bowling , after the early spells from the two Ws

Stokes looks like all the work he's done on the Test tour and this has flattened him - the hazards of being a fast bowling all rounder on a trip to India.  Obviously still a danger man with the bat but if England go on to lose this I'd be looking to rest him afterwards.

Not that this is over : a real road , and even 360 might be a chaseable target.

Hi Alfie - I hope so but don't have the confidence that England could get back in the box seats if they lose 3 or 4 wickets fairly quickly (as India did in this and the previous game). Probably the difference between batting deep and having reliable quality batsmen.

Indeed. Once you get past Roy, Hales and Root, our next "reliable" batsman is probably Moeen. I actually fancy him more batting down the order...the problem being he could run out of partners quite quickly.

Reliable in the sense he averages 22 in ODIs?

If youre chasing 380 haveing Trott and Boycott in at 5 and 6 isnt much use. England need to socre cosnitently rapidly through the order to get there. They have the line up to do that, even more so with Woakes and Willey at 9 10. The last 20 overs guys likje Buttler will have absolute freedom to try and make something happen. Being 4 down after 20 woudlnt event put them compeltely out of it.

Im confused as to how Englands firepwoer and depth has suddenly become a problem for them chasing down big scores, when their lack of it was previously always cited as the reason they couldnt get over 300. Now they do more often than not we are saying they arent solid enough?

As it is they are building that sound base first and in a very strong position to accelrate on. Of course wickets can change that quickly, but there is only a need to play in rather than rebuild slowly with this position and line up as  that happens.

If they lose the game, which they still likely will, Im sure as heck not going to blame the batting when the bowling got flubbed for the second game in a row. Pitches and opposition aside...its really not acceptable to be shipping that may runs when you have 6 front line bowling options.

Because England's supposed "firepower and depth" has a nasty habit of misfiring on a fairly regular basis. It was because of our previous success in ODIs that the test team got loaded with those type of players...and that worked out really well, didn't it?

Sure, most of those players on their day can hit big (or at least useful) scores, but its pretty much a coin toss as to whether they actually do or not.

You could put Moeen in the same category, but at least his batting has been more consistent of late (albeit at the expense of his bowling).

Moeens batting isnt consistent in a good sense recently or ever in ODIS...hes only passed 30 once in his last 23 innings! At lewast do some basic fact checking.

And exactly how often has Englands ODI batting been failing? OK the Bangladesh game they lost, even then they got over 200.
Its very rare they arent passing 260 (often with overs to spare) and have passed 300 in 5 of their last 6 completed (all overs or all out) innings ...including a 444/3.
They fire far more often than they fail.

Compare it to where they were 2 years ago and the difference is incredible...they had a run of 18 games without passing 300 inlcuding 5 all outs for under 200.
The last year they havent once failed to pass 200 in a completed innings, and have passed 300 6 times.

Yes not every player fires every time but as a unit they have consitently made good scores and failed far more rarely than the old "relaible" lineups used to.

This team score more runs than any England ODI side ever has.

Oh so now you're doing comparisons with where England were 2 YEARS ago?

I'm talking about the here and now.

And talking about total runs scored is rather pointless, since par scores change from ground to ground and also depend on the quality of the opposition, weather conditions, boundary sizes etc. Having an effective bowling unit also means you can get away with scoring fewer runs. All that really matters is how many games you WIN.

I'll take your word on your last sentence, since I can't be bothered to do any "fact checking". But it doesn't change the "fact" England are still prone to batting collapses on a pretty regular basis, regardless of where they play, or which format of the game.


And just as I type this Buttler goes for 10 and England are now 206-5.

I really don't know why I'm even replying to you when England are making my case so eloquently...

Yes 2 years ago. That's the period when England last had a significantly different make up to their batting side, the change in the runs scored which was quite a remarkable increase came when they moved away form " dependable" solid batsmen and a conservative approach and into picking a side of players all capable of hitting big fast runs down to 9. That's why its relevant. Unless you're suggesting that there was a sudden change in playing conditions and opposition on the day Morgan took charge. Even if we are talking about recently ... their last two totals have been pretty massive for any pitch. Yes they've lost wickets but that is a deliberate risk they take in trying to set the sort of totals the old style line ups simply weren't capable of. Even when it doesn't come off (which isn't that often) they are making scores that match that of the less expansive sides they used to pick.

If you're saying they've only started collapsing recently (which they haven't) then you cant also have that that's down to selections, when its stayed largely the same batting line up since Morgan took charge. The test side collapses is far less relevant since only a small number of the players (Root, Stokes, Moeen, Woakes) are regulars in both sides. What you're actually highlighting is that having more dependable guys in the side like Cook and Bairstow doesn't stop them having genuine collapses and struggling to make big runs regularly in that format.

Maybe theres a slight issue here with what is considered a collapse of course, but I don't see England having collapsed many times in recent ODIs, certainly no more so than any other international side, and their final totals are the match of any other side playing at the moment. They have been winning games with this approach that they traditionally would have lost despite not being backed up by the bowlers.
All sides have games where it goes wrong batting. India made lower scores than England did losing their last ODI series in Bangladesh, despite picking more "proper" batsmen.

Now of course any side would benefit from having Kholi batting 3 4 and 5 but unfortunately they aren't available for England.
The only realistic contenders for ODI batting spots currently are Billings and Bairstow.

Tests yes, I agree theres an issue with them being far too brittle. That may partly be down to packing the side with all rounders to try and get 6/7 bowlers in, trying to cover for the fact they don't have a decent spinner or quick bowler with variety. The real problem though has been with the top 5 which should be the scoring the vast majority of the runs, at any time 2 of those positions have been problematic for England. I don't think Stokes is up to it as a top 6 test bat, and Moeen is way too inconsistent for the top 5 in that format. England have a serious problem though that they have struggled to find proper batsmen who cut it and have been left with nothing but those kind of players.

Limited overs though, its simply not true to state that they regularly collapse or that the batting has been a major problem recently. The bowling has let them down more often, and certainly has in this series.

The last sentence is probably true... but I suspect it would be probably true for more than half the teams playing ODI. It's the modern game

England have scored at the highest run rate in odi's of any team since the world cup in 2015. They've also made their highest scores ever, and now scoring 320 is par, whereas before it was their limit.

There's nothing wrong with England's one day batting. The fact that guys like Billings, Vince, bairstow and duckett who are very good one day bats can't get a game shows the strength we have

Okay great.

Back in the real world, England have played four series against the 2015 world cup semi finalists and have won one.

Agree - batting has become a strength for England in ODIs. I actually thought yesterday we would get near, and so we did. Would have been unthinkable in the days of Cook/Bell/Trott as the top 3. The game has changed a bit since then, but England's approach catching up is a bigger factor. They will get out playing shots, but also they will give themselves a chance of 350

On the bowling, and I've seen it mentioned above, get Broad in at least for the CT. He's a better bowler than everyone in the side bar Woakes and did start out as an ODI specialist. Less convinced by Anderson, but Broad and Woakes with the new ball looks strong. Stokes will be a lot better at home, as will Rashid. Wood is the ideal other choice but Ball should be good at home too

kingraf wrote:Okay great.

Back in the real world, England have played four series against the 2015 world cup semi finalists and have won one.

And in the real world they lost 3-2 to Australia and south Africa (so barely), have been competitive in India, and have beaten Pakistan, Sri Lanka, New Zealand and Bangladesh in the meantime.

If you'd told me they'd improve to that in 18 months post world cup I'd have bitten your hand off

England have definitely improved in the real world. They were the worst team in the World Cup by a mile - that was less than two years ago. Not world beaters now (as the rankings reflect) but equally not the embarrassment of before and also a team that neutrals now enjoy watching for something other than comedy purposes

Eng is a much better ODI side now....thrn they were at the time of workd cup...fearless batting and batters capable of explosive batting.....just keep going and all the wat down.

eng and India are top batting sides.....and Aus a close 3rd

KP_fan wrote:Eng is a much better ODI side now....thrn they were at the time of workd cup...fearless batting and batters capable of explosive batting.....just keep going and all the wat down.

eng and India are top batting sides.....and Aus a close 3rd

Beat India
Beat England
Whitewashed Australia

Top four of
Amla
de kock
Faf
Ab

You look at that and youre hoping Amla hurts you, which is saying something... but sure not even in the top three batting line up

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:England have scored at the highest run rate in odi's of any team since the world cup in 2015. They've also made their highest scores ever, and now scoring 320 is par, whereas before it was their limit.

There's nothing wrong with England's one day batting. The fact that guys like Billings, Vince, bairstow and duckett who are very good one day bats can't get a game shows the strength we have

I don't think anyone is disputing that our batting line up is impressive, its our bowling attack that keeps letting us down, and has done for a long time, iMO we badly miss Mark Wood in our bowling attack

I think we need to temper expectations on Mark Wood to be fair. He would be an interesting wildcard to add in to our bowling attack, but he has a bad ODI record (only 11) and can't string any sort of run of games together.

I think England have the best batting line up in the world though to be fair. India a close second, as there are still question marks over the openers and SA third - given we don't know if ABdV will ever play for them again.

AB will play odi's he has already said that, he's just not playing tests for the forseeable

VTR wrote:Agree - batting has become a strength for England in ODIs. I actually thought yesterday we would get near, and so we did. Would have been unthinkable in the days of Cook/Bell/Trott as the top 3. The game has changed a bit since then, but England's approach catching up is a bigger factor. They will get out playing shots, but also they will give themselves a chance of 350

On the bowling, and I've seen it mentioned above, get Broad in at least for the CT. He's a better bowler than everyone in the side bar Woakes and did start out as an ODI specialist. Less convinced by Anderson, but Broad and Woakes with the new ball looks strong. Stokes will be a lot better at home, as will Rashid. Wood is the ideal other choice but Ball should be good at home too

Look at the difference between SB & JA in their last two years. Anderson was at number 4 in the rankings and Broad at 50.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;spanmin1=19+Jan+2013;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=bowling

I think Anderson is in decline though. Two years ago, Woakes was nowhere but is now one of the first picks. Things change and I think Broad would be the best bet now

VTR wrote:I think Anderson is in decline though. Two years ago,  Woakes was nowhere but is now one of the first picks. Things change and I think Broad would be the best bet now

Well that's you opinion. I think Finn 28.96 econ 5.09 s/r 34.1 is better than Woakes 34.30 econ 5.67 s/r 36.2

So the combined 606 solution to England's issues is to bring back Broad Anderson Finn and Rashid ...and tell the top 5 to stop getting out but score as quickly.

Or just stop playing India when they are trying.


I'm glad to see they've given Billings a go here .....although it seems he's been somewhat caged so far.

194/2 off 33. According to Simon Hughes - a better analyst than he was a bowler - ODI sides should be looking to double their score in the final 17 overs. I guess that reflects advances in big hitting - the doubling your total comment was being said about the final 20 overs until recently.

Not convinced that England will meet Hughes' expectations today as Morgan goes in the 34th!

I would say that England will get 330 from here, anything higher will be a bonus.

eirebilly wrote:I would say that England will get 330 from here, anything higher will be a bonus.

280 is looking more likely, given the way they are throwing wickets away.

Typical England...start strongly before collapsing for no reason whatsoever.

Really feeble this..can't even win a dead rubber.


Watch India wrap this up with wickets in hand and overs to spare.