Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

First topic message reminder :

So Dhoni is gone.....amidst  lot of of glowing tributes...but we  suspect he was asked to go...his time was up quite sometime back.....and the BCCI did it in a nice way...
It's also being said that the Champions Trophy will be his retirement tournament if he performs vs Eng...else this might be his end series



Ind ODI squad: KL Rahul, Shikhar Dhawan, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni, Manish Pandey, Kedar Jadhav, Yuvraj Singh, Ajinkya Rahane, Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Amit Mishra, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Umesh Yadav


Ind T20I squad: KL Rahul, Mandeep Singh, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni (wk), Yuvraj Singh, Suresh Raina, Rishabh Pant (wk), Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Yuzvendra Chahal, Manish Pandey, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Ashish Nehra


for completeness sake here are the Eng squads




England ODI squad:
Moeen Ali, Jonny Bairstow, Jake Ball, Sam Billings, Jos Buttler, Liam Dawson, Alex Hales, Eoin Morgan(c), Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey, Chris Woakes,
England T20I squad:
Moeen Ali, Jake Ball, Sam Billings, Jos Buttler, Liam Dawson, Alex Hales, Chris Jordan, Tymal Mills, Eoin Morgan(c), Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey,

msp83 wrote:And Stokes does it for England, bowls Pandya!. Think that's it for India.......

Don't worry - Jadeja (and Ashwin if it comes to that) are good enough sloggers to see India home.

Jadeja can't see this through despite a couple of boundaries. All very much down to Jadhav.......

Wow - nerves getting to India?

2 catches in quick succession as they go for some big (and probably unnecessary) shots.

297-8 - down to the wire now they have genuine tail enders at one end. Can Jadhav keep it together?

Excellent game, really enjoyed this. Even missing the first half of the Connacht match for this.

Overs 48 and 49 good ones from Stokes and Ball, tip balance in England's favour ....

There again ....

India need 16 of the last over. All down to Jadhav who refused a single of the 4th ball of the lprevious over and then scored 3 of the next to keep strike. Perhaps he should have taken the single and let Bhuvi have a go?

6 needed off 4 balls. Desperately need that 9th wicket now ....

Gah!

And Woakes has given India the match with 10 off two balls of the final over.

England always manage to find a way...

Jadhav nearly does it, but he can't in the end. England holding their nerves.......

Jaysus...

Whatever happens, Jadhav has been superb

Glad I woke up to watch this finish...

Come on Woakes...don't bowl a no ball...

Jesus - Woakes redeems himself with 2 dot balls and a wicket...another boundary catch!

India need 6 off the last ball...surely not?

eirebilly wrote:Excellent game, really enjoyed this. Even missing the first half of the Connacht match for this.

Cracking game, Billy, as England sneak it! Deserved to get something out of this series.

So a win at last for England.......

Think England deserved that win.

Although Jadhav didn't really deserve to lose.

Cracking match

What a series, absolutely spellbinding. Credit to India on winning but 2-1 is a very fair reflection of the teams.

Well England made us suffer...as usual, but scrape to victory by 5 runs.

Great tense finish in the end.

Felt sure Woakes had blown it, going for 10 runs off his first two deliveries. Didn't concede another run though and got the crucial wicket of Jadhav...courtesy of a brilliant catch by Billings.

Still hard to feel too happy, given how the series (and indeed the whole tour) has gone...but its a first win. Maybe we can do better in the T20 series?

eirebilly wrote:What a series, absolutely spellbinding. Credit to India on winning but 2-1 is a very fair reflection of the teams.

Yep - two very even sides, India just held their nerve better in the first two games. Wouldn't mind seeing them meet again in the final of champions trophy in the summer...

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:What a series, absolutely spellbinding. Credit to India on winning but 2-1 is a very fair reflection of the teams.

Yep - two very even sides, India just held their nerve better in the first two games. Wouldn't mind seeing them meet again in the final of champions trophy in the summer...

Very little between them for sure but fair fecks to the Indian fans, always bringing such a fantastic atmosphere to the grounds. They add so much to the game

Pretty good result losing two senior batsmen before and a senior bowler during the game.

Well Eng do manage to get one past the Indians....well played...the English seamers out bowled the Indians in the game......and Eng openers  outbatted the Indians...through out the series 

India's two problems are (2) openers......in a batting line-up so overflowing with talent.......Rahul will rue  the 3 missed opportunities in batting friendly conditions....
Rohit will be back for Aus test series and Rohit + Dhawan will become the first choice openers.

Pandya confirms his status as India's most exciting talent.....a genuine seam bowling allrounde

and Jadhav at the relatively late age of 32 is batting without fear.......temperament sound and mind uncluttered

Jetty wrote:

VTR wrote:I think Anderson is in decline though. Two years ago,  Woakes was nowhere but is now one of the first picks. Things change and I think Broad would be the best bet now

Well that's you opinion.    I think Finn 28.96 econ 5.09 s/r 34.1 is better than Woakes 34.30 econ 5.67 s/r 36.2

Was this post a wind up? I was talking about form rather than career stats, surely that's the basis to pick a team. Have you even seen Finn bowl in the last 12 months - I seriously doubt it given the above

Andersons not realistic especially given how injury prone he's become, Finn need to properly prove himself not just have a couple of good county games.
Broad has long been talking about pushing for a return. Of the three he's the most realistic, but really needs to demonstrate this domestically. It will be interesting to see if he goes for an IPL contract.
They are short a quality bowler no question....but can only accommodate 2 non all rounders without have to change the approach of allowing 6+ wickets to be lost as the norm.
If Mills can live up to the long promised potential and consistently bowl at pace with accuracy he could be the solution long term. As it stands they have guys like Ball doing OK but not well enough. Maybe Leach as a spinner could be a breakthrough all formats force in 2017 ... but that's quite a leap from where he was in the pecking order before these winter tours.
Something has to give on the spin front though. It looks like they've lost patience with Rashid, Moeens never cut if. Dawson and Ansari are both all rounders rather than proper bowling prospects.

The cupboard is pretty bare in fixing the bowling problem ... especially when travelling away from the sort of conditions where the likes of Woakes thrive.

Agree with all of that. Broad for me is a short-term option targeting the CT at home this year, nothing else. It might not come off, but if there's something in the pitch he has a better chance of taking "genuine" wickets than anyone else in English conditions and that's because he's the best seamer in England (Jetty will no doubt now dig out some stats showing that Ronnie Irani is a better ODI player) Certainly a far, far better bowler than David Willey.

If we can get a team 50-4 at home that could be the game - I feel Broad increases our chances of doing that

I will be furious if Rashid is dropped from the ODI side long term. Past 12 months he's averaging 29 with an economy of I think 5.3 RPO - he's been our best ODI bowler and offers our only real genuine wicket taking threat in overs 15-40. Dropping him from the ODI side based off a bad end to the test series would be bonkers - especially seeing as we replaced him with an ineffective/not really up to standard seamer like Plunkett/Ball.

I think they'll want to get Wood back in the side over Broad. Broad was never really a great ODI bowler imo, and I think he should concentrate on tests only like Anderson does - especially as we are further away from finding the next test seamers than ODI seamers imo - need to keep them going in tests longer

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I will be furious if Rashid is dropped from the ODI side long term. Past 12 months he's averaging 29 with an economy of I think 5.3 RPO - he's been our best ODI bowler and offers our only real genuine wicket taking threat in overs 15-40. Dropping him from the ODI side based off a bad end to the test series would be bonkers - especially seeing as we replaced him with an ineffective/not really up to standard seamer like Plunkett/Ball.

I think they'll want to get Wood back in the side over Broad. Broad was never really a great ODI bowler imo, and I think he should concentrate on tests only like Anderson does - especially as we are further away from finding the next test seamers than ODI seamers imo - need to keep them going in tests longer

Well Olly I think Rashids dropping was as much going for 50 runs off 5 overs with no wickets in an ODI than being woeful for his entire test career.
But you do have a good point, I hadn't really clocked on just how much better he'd been than other England bowlers in ODIS the last year. Only Ball has figures that stack up against his in the last summer/winter cycle (slightly better average, worse economy). Your figures are a touch off (not including the India game I guess) statsguru has it at 30.06 at 5.33 ...but the general point is still valid.
Certainly hes improved this year in that format, even if finally getting a chance in tests hasn't paid off. His returns with the ball are far better than those of Moeen who's ODI record remaining truly woeful. So if we are looking to fix the bowling then Rashid over Moeen isnt a bad shout, although doesn't look realistic given which ones been dropped. (as a side note Rashids career batting figures are better than Moeens, although thats like saying horse poo is better than dog poo).
Either one going though requires more than just them being a disappointing, but also someone whos going to bring more with the ball to come in. Right now thats down to Leach to start the season well enough to demand selection, or Ansari/Dawson to learn how to bowl properly.

As for Broad...I think your being a bit harsh on him. Sure hes never quite been a top ODI bowler he has tended to perform in ICC competitions (including the t20 world cup). His career average of 30 at 5.26 is far from shabby (although has to be understood against the way scoring rates have jumped in the 3 years hes largely not played). Importantly hes taken almost as many 4 wicket hauls as the entire current England squad combined has.
Its hard to know where he is right now though ...having barely played limited over cricket in the last 3 years and not having played at home since summer 2013. But of the players available I think hes one who actually has something to bring to the side. As much as Broad has something to prove to earn a recall Mark Wood has never delivered in ODIs, and describing him as fast is generous. I certainly think Broad should be in line for a squad place.
Your point about managing players though is partly valid, and part of the reason why hes been kept out of the limited overs side for so long. It appears that hes over the lingering injuries that hampered him though, and certainly he himself believes that he should be able to play all formats. Long term development and planning tends to go out the window when theres a major trophy to contest ...especially at home. If you are building and selecting for the trophies, what are you building and saving players for? The management issue though is more relevant to Anderson, who is older and more broken...and more integral to Englands home test success. the medic will have a true picture though of Broads readiness and ability to sustain the required workload of multi formats at international level.

I'm not overlooking Wood, but am kind of working on the basis he's looking likely to be Simon Jones part 2. Which would be a big shame, but the guy just can't get on the park for any sustained period at any level

Gooseberry wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I will be furious if Rashid is dropped from the ODI side long term. Past 12 months he's averaging 29 with an economy of I think 5.3 RPO - he's been our best ODI bowler and offers our only real genuine wicket taking threat in overs 15-40. Dropping him from the ODI side based off a bad end to the test series would be bonkers - especially seeing as we replaced him with an ineffective/not really up to standard seamer like Plunkett/Ball.

I think they'll want to get Wood back in the side over Broad. Broad was never really a great ODI bowler imo, and I think he should concentrate on tests only like Anderson does - especially as we are further away from finding the next test seamers than ODI seamers imo - need to keep them going in tests longer

Well Olly I think Rashids dropping was as much going for 50 runs off 5 overs with no wickets in an ODI than being woeful for his entire test career.
But you do have a good point, I hadn't really clocked on just how much better he'd been than other England bowlers in ODIS the last year. Only Ball has figures that stack up against his in the last summer/winter cycle (slightly better average, worse economy). Your figures are a touch off (not including the India game I guess) statsguru has it at 30.06 at 5.33 ...but the general point is still valid.
Certainly hes improved this year in that format, even if finally getting a chance in tests hasn't paid off. His returns with the ball are far better than those of Moeen who's ODI record remaining truly woeful. So if we are looking to fix the bowling then Rashid over Moeen isnt a bad shout, although doesn't look realistic given which ones been dropped. (as a side note Rashids career batting figures are better than Moeens, although thats like saying horse poo is better than dog poo).
Either one going though requires more than just them being a disappointing, but also someone whos going to bring more with the ball to come in. Right now thats down to Leach to start the season well enough to demand selection, or Ansari/Dawson to learn how to bowl properly.

As for Broad...I think your being a bit harsh on him. Sure hes never quite been a top ODI bowler he has tended to perform in ICC competitions (including the t20 world cup). His career average of 30 at 5.26 is far from shabby (although has to be understood against the way scoring rates have jumped in the 3 years hes largely not played). Importantly hes taken almost as many 4 wicket hauls as the entire current England squad combined has.
Its hard to know where he is right now though ...having barely played limited over cricket in the last 3 years and not having played at home since summer 2013. But of the players available I think hes one who actually has something to bring to the side. As much as Broad has something to prove to earn a recall Mark Wood has never delivered in ODIs, and describing him as fast is generous. I certainly think Broad should be in line for a squad place.
Your point about managing players though is partly valid, and part of the reason why hes been kept out of the limited overs side for so long. It appears that hes over the lingering injuries that hampered him though, and certainly he himself believes that he should be able to play all formats. Long term development and planning tends to go out the window when theres a major trophy to contest ...especially at home. If you are building and selecting for the trophies, what are you building and saving players for? The management issue though is more relevant to Anderson, who is older and more broken...and more integral to Englands home test success. the medic will have a true picture though of Broads readiness and ability to sustain the required workload of multi formats at international level.

Think that Strauss has said to the selectors, no Anderson or Broad for limited overs.

Mail
Only Ben Stokes, Chris Woakes and Moeen Ali could be considered certain bowling selections for June’s tournament at this stage and even Stokes has admitted himself that he is still too expensive in white-ball cricket.

Jake Ball, Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid and David Willey, who is to stay on here for the three Twenty20 internationals after an encouraging scan on his left shoulder injury, all still need to do more to guarantee their places in June.

Bayliss will be looking at the North/South teams in UAE which include Bresnan, Wood, Gurney, TCurran, Gregory, Coles and Finn. See who is in form.

Jetty,

i was barely aware of the North South game thing but youre correct, it does sound most likley that any squad newcomers would be from that list. You can pretty much discount Gurney and Bresnan who were qualified on performance, as opposed to picked by the selectors to be there. of the seamers realisticaly its only Curran who has a chance of stepping up in the short term (injury crisis pending).
Spinners wise theres not much playing in these games either, no Leach.
Catching up on Mills ...its hugely unlikley he will be anything other than a T20 specialist for the forseeable future.
So really its on the existing pool of bowlers to just stop being rubbish if England are going to rely on more than just their batting to win games for the time being. Home conditions will even things out for them somewhat, but it still feels like they lack consistent class in that area.

In other news India are resting both Ashwin and Jadeja for the T20.
Root is fit, Willey and Hales aren't. Woakes not being in the squad leaves a choice of 2 from Jordan, Mills and Rashid. The rest of the line up presemaubly would stay as was for the last ODI.

So both teams missing some key players but still looking pretty strong.

Gooseberry wrote:Jetty,

i was barely aware of the North South game thing but youre correct, it does sound most likley that any squad newcomers would be from that list. You can pretty much discount Gurney and Bresnan who were qualified on performance, as opposed to picked by the selectors to be there. of the seamers realisticaly its only Curran who has a chance of stepping up in the short term (injury crisis pending).
Spinners wise theres not much playing in these games either, no Leach.
Catching up on Mills ...its hugely unlikley he will be anything other than a T20 specialist for the forseeable future.
So really its on the existing pool of bowlers to just stop being rubbish if England are going to rely on more than just their batting to win games for the time being. Home conditions will even things out for them somewhat, but it still feels like they lack consistent class in that area.

In other news India are resting both Ashwin and Jadeja for the T20.
Root is fit, Willey and Hales aren't. Woakes not being in the squad leaves a choice of 2 from Jordan, Mills and Rashid. The rest of the line up presemaubly would stay as was for the last ODI.

So both teams missing some key players but still looking pretty strong.

Yes I can't see them selecting someone new at this late stage.
From
Willey, Stokes, Woakes, Plunkett, Ball, Wood, Topley, Finn, Jordan
Ali, Rashid, Dawson
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;spanmin1=1+Jan+2016;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=bowling

Although Willey has taken early wickets his figures don't look very good. In the later overs he has had Buttler up to the stumps. I wonder if Topley will replace him in ODIs and leave Willey to 20/20s, where even the fast bowlers spend most of their time bowling slower balls.

Not much interest in the T20 match?

England doing pretty well with the ball so far - India 106-5 after 15, with Moeen through his spell with the excellent figures of 4-0-21-2.

Comfortable win for England. India well short with the bat after some good English bowling, and Billings and Roy's explosive start gave Morgan and Root time to consolidate and ease home. Apparently that's the first game this tour where Root hasn't passed 50, and he gets 46 not out. Not too bad...

Excellent performance from England. I like Billings a lot, it's a real shame that he doesn't get a look in more often, immensely talented bat and a great fielder.

Mills looked good too, his slower balls are very good.

India were poor - not sure about Rahul in the one day stuff from what I've seen this tour

Yes, very comfortable today as said above.

I was surprisingly impressed by Mills. He's always had pace but rarely accuracy in the past. Interesting to see if he can maintain today's form and how he gets on.

Echoing the above views : I was pleased with the whole game from England - very professional job , basically controlled the game virtually throughout. Most uncharacteristically relaxed viewing

Mills indeed did well. Much better than when I last saw him...not that I've seen a lot of him , but I recall fast and erratic rather than the thoughtful effort he put in here. Not to get carried away on one performance ; but looks a good one for t20 (I understand he doesn't really play anything longer : we are seeing the evolution of extreme specialists !)

Anyone think Billings may present a challenger for Hales as ODI opener ? Can't see anywhere else he could get in at present. Not to dismiss Hales who has played well in the recent past ; but as he doesn't bowl or captain he is probably more vulnerable than the others and will need to keep performing...

the keenly fought ODI series deserved to be 5 games.....and then they could have played an entertainment T20 as the 6th game in the end.

From India's POV--> the've gotta move beyond Yuv, Dhoni, Raina, Nehra type dinosaurs
and bring in Pant, Jadhav, Dhwan, Rohit, Shardul

I think Hales is a long way off losing his pot on the basis of his injury replacement scoring 22 in low pressure situation with Indias best bowlers rested. Longer term he could come under pressure in ODIs, but hes been one of the best T20 batsmen in the world for some time. yes he needs to keep it up, but I don't see Billings demanding a place currently. The same could be said for Roy, hes established himself now but needs to keep performing and has far less pedigree than Hales (average 19 vs 31!) England are blessed with a lot of depth but aren't prone to chopping their best players quickly.

Mills apparently has little interest in risking his back again in the short term playing as anything other than a T20 mercenary. Its probably the first time we've seen him play for England relatively free from pain which main partially explain the improvement. maybe an extended break form longer forms will enable to come back as a 50 over player in the future, but I wouldn't count on it. A more extreme case of what happened with Tait.

Rashid not getting a bowl ....hes really not man sausage of the yard any more is he.

Re Mills. Yes I was impressed. Good pace, which he's always had, but was pretty accurate, and those slower balls at the death were tricky to deal with. Adds another death option, which is always good.

Re Billings. Yes his numbers aren't great so far, but he struggled at the start of his career. His last few outings have been pretty impressive at the top of the order. It's clear he's now back-up opener, and if Hales goes through a rough patch he'll be knocking on the door. Having said that, Hales's recent ODI form (before these winter tours) has been really good (he got the highest ever score for an England ODI player a few games back) so he's got quite a bit of credit left. All Billings can do for now is perform when injury/rotation gives him his chance. It does show England's batting depth of options though.

Re Rashid. It happens. The seamers were bowling well, as was Moeen. Moeen was brought on first I suspect in part because Kohli and Raina were at the crease: Kohli played Rashid superbly in the tests and first ODI, while Raina has had issues against off-spin in the past (not so much against leg spin). Like Olly I'll be a bit annoyed if Rashid getting tonked in the first ODI - when everyone else was being tonked too - and struggling towards the end of the Tests results in England losing faith in him in limited overs cricket.

I just can't get excited by that win and this series. I'm with KP Fan - would have preferred a longer ODI series and then a single T20, reason being there is a global ODI tournament coming up

Saying that am cold on bilateral T20 series in general, to say the result would be forgotten in a week is probably being generous. Tri-series could be interesting, but unlikely in this day and age

Well sounds like Billings will get that chance ....Hales is out for the Windies too.
Handy reserve but he needs to start living up to his potential. To be fair it took both Hales and Roy a little time to kick-start their international careers.

Gooseberry wrote:Well sounds like Billings will get that chance ....Hales is out for the Windies too.
Handy reserve but he needs to start living up to his potential. To be fair it took both Hales and Roy a little time to kick-start their international careers.

Buttler too. Billings generally has done well, got a fifty in his one game in Bangladesh too, but nothing substantial yet

Should perhaps clarify my position re Billings.

I floated the Billings for Hales possibility just as a discussion point : as a Hales fan I neither want nor believe it is likely to happen - unless he has a really rotten run of form. (Not surprised though to see Billings getting injury opportunities - which could , I suppose , present problems if he has a brilliant series)
I think Billings is likely to remain 1st reserve for the time being : all the incumbents are fairly young. When Morgan eventually moves on then an opening will be contested - presumably by Billings and Bairstow ; though that is really looking too far ahead. Truth is I feel Hales is probably the most vulnerable of the current bats : but if he stays fit he isn't really in any imminent danger.

Nice to have good reserves , no ?

Well maybe we should look at it the other way....if Billings bangs out 50s in every game who does Hales come back for?

Nice dilema.

The 2nd T-20I is about to get underway. India opt for Amit Mishra, and think it is a good call. He's a much better short format bowler in comparison to tests....... But couple of non-selections trouble me. Bhuvneshwar Kumar has been a greatly improved bowler in the death overs, and Ashish Nehra is never going to be fit enough to play ODIs any more and is an unlikely candidate for the CT squad. There is no global T-20I tournaments around. He is unlikely to last till the next. His selection itself in the squad is rather retrograde, but picking him over Bhuvi in the playing side a poor move.
The other is young Rishabh Pant. The only format where Suresh Raina should even be considered for India selection is T-20Is. But he's not a number 3, and he's more suited to go from ball 1. Manesh Pandey on the other hand, despite being the first Indian to score an IPL ton, is more suited for ODIs and tests. And he most certainly is not 1 for the number 6 role, if he plays, it has to be at the top, opening or at 3. I would rather have had Pant ahead of either Raina or Pandey. Pandey has failed to take his chances in ODIs in the NZ series, and didn't contribute in the last game. As such, Pant should have been given an opportunity.......

Kohli absolutely plum LBW

Indian umpire of course gives it not out...

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Kohli absolutely plum LBW

Indian umpire of course gives it not out...

And the same umpire now gives a plumb LBW against Yuvraj not out

This is now becoming a not so rare thing, the ball clipping the stumps and the bails not coming off...... Manish Pandey very lucky there, Stokes at the other end of the spectrum

Luck not quite going England's way, Kohli was lucky early in his innings to get away with a plumb LBW, Yuvraj, contrary to Olly's belief, one that was out than not out rather than plumb, and Pandey's bails refusing to budge.......