Eng vs. India...ODIs & T20s

First topic message reminder :

So Dhoni is gone.....amidst  lot of of glowing tributes...but we  suspect he was asked to go...his time was up quite sometime back.....and the BCCI did it in a nice way...
It's also being said that the Champions Trophy will be his retirement tournament if he performs vs Eng...else this might be his end series



Ind ODI squad: KL Rahul, Shikhar Dhawan, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni, Manish Pandey, Kedar Jadhav, Yuvraj Singh, Ajinkya Rahane, Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Amit Mishra, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Umesh Yadav


Ind T20I squad: KL Rahul, Mandeep Singh, Virat Kohli (capt), MS Dhoni (wk), Yuvraj Singh, Suresh Raina, Rishabh Pant (wk), Hardik Pandya, R Ashwin, Ravindra Jadeja, Yuzvendra Chahal, Manish Pandey, Jasprit Bumrah, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Ashish Nehra


for completeness sake here are the Eng squads




England ODI squad:
Moeen Ali, Jonny Bairstow, Jake Ball, Sam Billings, Jos Buttler, Liam Dawson, Alex Hales, Eoin Morgan(c), Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey, Chris Woakes,
England T20I squad:
Moeen Ali, Jake Ball, Sam Billings, Jos Buttler, Liam Dawson, Alex Hales, Chris Jordan, Tymal Mills, Eoin Morgan(c), Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey,

England in control of the game though, they have kept the Indian batsmen under check so far.......
Kohli getting a few things wrong, thought MS should have come in at 5, there is no one better at getting the singles and converting them into doubles, and on this ground and in these conditions, India needed a lot more of those......

Pandey, despite playing 16 balls, unable to even strike at a hundred.......

This is not a high scoring ground usually, and India have 2 regular and 2 decent parttime spinners in their ranks. But I think the target of 145 is not enough to challenge this power packed, long England batting lineup.......
Wrong team selection, wrong batting order, Virat hasn't had a good day in office.......
What is a good 11 for India in this format? They should go in with
Rahul
Rohit Sharma
Kohli
Dhoni
Jadhav
Pant?
Pandya
2 of Ashwin, Jadeja and Mishra
Bhuvneshwar
Bumrah

Old man Nehra takes 2 in 2 as India stay alive....... Still a lot of batting to come, there is quality and experience in Root and Morgan, and then a lot of ability and power all the way.......

England's batting lineup is ideally suited for this format. Stickability may not be their strongest quality, but if Root and Morgan can bat for 5 overs or so, think England will have enough batting to see them through.......

Among contemporary international spinners Amit Mishra tends to bowl the most number of no-balls. It has always irritated me so much!, and today he yet again bowled an atrocious no-ball that otherwise might have changed the game! Stokes was bowled with a ripper, only to face a free hit next up as Mishra overstepped massively.

The fellow has been around at the international level for nearly 14 bloody years!

Stokes and Root saw Mishra's spell through, and now its party time!

This is pathetic batting

Poor last over from Nehra, and after looking lost for a moment, England are right back in control...... But that moment means the game is dragged into the last over. Can India produce a miracle?

Joe Root with one of the worst T20 international innings ever

Trigger finger Indian umpire - has now got three easy decision wrong, all in favour of the Indians. Funny that........

Gosh another terrible umpiring call see Root packed off! Bumrah gets lucky....... But India's moments of luck never held up long enough to make a decisive impact so far in this game.......

Utterly pathetic batting effort from England this. Root with an atrocious innings, has lost it for England.

England only 2 hits away, but they have to hit the next 2 and Buttler won't be there to do it.......

Great death bowling but England rather threw that away

Jordan in before Dawson... #headsgone

No, Moeen can't do it and Bumrah can. Despite the poor umpiring call to start the over, that was an excellent over from Bumrah. And India snach away a win from England, whos game this was to lose and they did.......

well we did see today that pressure gets to this very good limited over Eglish side....India lucky to have come out of this as winners.....

Dhoni + Raina + Yuvraj 29 balls 16 runs
Rahul, kohli, Pandey, pandya 122 off 91 balls

India's gotta look beyond these aged stars....they don't have the strength in their arms and reflexes like before....

at the very least Yuvraj should be replaced by Pant next game

jimbohammers wrote:Jordan in before Dawson... #headsgone

Really don't think it mattered by that point jimbo tbf

Will be interesting to see how England react to that defeat. For me Buttler should be coming in way way higher than 6. He's our best t20 bat, and always plays best when given time to get in. Shouldn't be coming in for a 10 ball cameo after 17 overs

Good Jolly I am Olly wrote:For me Buttler should be coming in way way higher than 6. 

just out of curiosity...how ?

KP_fan wrote:

Good Jolly I am Olly wrote:For me Buttler should be coming in way way higher than 6. 

just out of curiosity...how ?

Should be above Stokes at least to be fair. Gets a bit trickier after that. I suppose you could even argue Buttler at 4 and Morgan at 5 - as I remember him saying, a few years back now though, that he preferred 5 and that is where he liked playing in T20s.

KP_fan wrote:

Good Jolly I am Olly wrote:For me Buttler should be coming in way way higher than 6. 

just out of curiosity...how ?

I'd definitely have him above Stokes. But actually, whilst Hales is out I'd have him opening the batting. He's best against pace, and gives him the most balls to face. Billings imo is more suited to #6 too.

So that pressure on Hales from Billings .... *friendly sarcasm face*

As we were all saying last week England's bowling is being let down by the batting yeah

So that pressure on Hales from Billings .... *friendly sarcasm face*

As we were all saying last week England's bowling is being let sown by the batting yeah

Am not really taking that result seriously, England can hardly plan for home refereeing that conveniently keeps the series alive. Does it need to be any more transparent than a reprieve of the hero of India and manipulating the final over

VTR wrote:Am not really  taking that result seriously, England can hardly plan for home refereeing that conveniently keeps the series alive. Does it need to be any more transparent than a reprieve of the hero of India and manipulating the final over

Convenient that Kohli survives a plumb LBW and Root gets poorly given out, simply cheating.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

VTR wrote:Am not really  taking that result seriously, England can hardly plan for home refereeing that conveniently keeps the series alive. Does it need to be any more transparent than a reprieve of the hero of India and manipulating the final over

Convenient that Kohli survives a plumb LBW and Root gets poorly given out, simply cheating.

England have lodged a complaint with the ICC. Hopefully they'll revoke the umpires international status

I didn't stay up (perhaps mercifully ? ) to watch the England innings. Had expected them to get the runs , though I did also think after seeing India bat that this surface wasn't as easy to score on as the typical t20 track , so didn't assume it would be easy.
It appears from the way the innings went that they had it pretty well under control most of the way ? So was it carelessness or Indian brilliance that unhinged them at the end ?
Apparently Root just wasn't his usual fluent self...and Buttler seems (at the risk of upsetting his many fans on here) to have rather mislaid his white ball mojo : could it be trying to reinvent himself as a Test batsman has robbed him of some of the magic that had him destroying all bowling in limited over games ? Not to panic yet ; but he really hasn't fired in either the 50 over or t20 matches.

I am not too bothered about this loss - t20 can go either way and the advantage of chasing in the dew was probably compensated by some , shall we say , "one sided" decision making by one umpire. But it does demonstrate that the team is perhaps not quite the batting superpower some fans claim...and is still inclined to panic under pressure.

Nice to see the bowlers stand up : though I also think it proves over reliance on spin is emphatically not the way for England to go ; even in India.

VTR wrote:Am not really  taking that result seriously, England can hardly plan for home refereeing that conveniently keeps the series alive. Does it need to be any more transparent than a reprieve of the hero of India and manipulating the final over

everyone gets a fine edge of luck once in a while......Stokes got a lucky break when bowled of a no ball...else Eng may not have made it to the last over with chances intact.....
Inspite of the Root LBW, Butler had the rest of the over.........nobody's fault that he could not put bat to ball

*aside *And once upon a time Stuart Broad used to edge the ball in Ashes games  caught  waist high in slips off a ball that was not no-ball.....and yet bat on   

The problem with such self-pity...and attributing 100% failure to a 1% cause that the will to fight dies....and next game is most likely gone on a platter to the opponent.

It was a tight game - 1% factors can make a difference

I though hometown umpiring was something from the 90's but it's alive and well in this series. Kind of nostalgic in that respect

Pretty sure Broad wasn't given not out by an English umpire

Anyway, as I said before, this series is tomorrow's chip paper, so maybe the ICC can't be bothered to roll out DRS for such a meaningless series and we'll get what we're given with the umpiring

VTR wrote:

Pretty sure Broad wasn't given not out by an English umpire

since we are not required to prove anything....simply sling some mud.....it's easy 

" Who knows if that umpire was being incentivized / granted favors in cash or kind by ECB" 

Since when did stating a fact become mud-slinging?

I am not suggesting match-fixing, more that a home umpire with the pressure of a crowd of 30,000+ might not make the same decision that a neutral would - seems reasonable to me

India's star batsmen gets a reprieve by an Indian umpire in India whilst Englands star batsmen is wrongly given out by the same umpire with the game in the balance, doesn't sound at all dodgy does it.

Mistakes happen all the time but when they're so bad and convenient like yesterday it makes you wonder.

VTR wrote:Since when did stating a fact become mud-slinging?

I am not suggesting match-fixing, more that a home umpire with the pressure of a crowd of 30,000+ might not make the same decision that a neutral would - seems reasonable to me

I think there are three (3) points in response:

--that ICC has allowed home umpires for T20s implies they deem home umpires are neutral enough ( i.e their intent should not be doubted )

--HOWLERS are committed not by only home umpires and only in T20s....but by non-home umpires, across the spectrum in all forms of game...from time immemorial ( i. e since SloMo technology became sophisticated enough to expose the umpiring blunders?

--why is there no DRS?..why the boards  accepted the series without DRS ?

Good post - I think T20 is lagging behind other international formats to be honest. It's clearly not deemed important enough to have the package that we see at Test level i.e. DRS and neutral umpires. Maybe that's not logistically possible, but if it's a serious form of the game, then it seems odd that it has not been improved in any of those respects

I think we'll see at least DRS come in when the better off countries play in the future, I can only see T20 growing with the T20 series being an integral part of each tour

The idea behind no DRS in T20s I believe was originally that T20s are meant to be a "fast" game, and the review process slows the game down considerably. Of course, I'm not sure that holds so much any more, with no-ball referrals, extra drinks breaks, fielding captains taking for ever to set the field, etc. I think DRS will make it into the T20 arena fairly soon.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:The idea behind no DRS in T20s I believe was originally that T20s are meant to be a "fast" game, and the review process slows the game down considerably. Of course, I'm not sure that holds so much any more, with no-ball referrals, extra drinks breaks, fielding captains taking for ever to set the field, etc. I think DRS will make it into the T20 arena fairly soon.

I do think so too...and T20 is an entertainment package......and if at all anything DRS adds to the drama....

2 reviews per team per inning...could at most cost them 30 minutes more and instead of 3 hours game it becomes 31/2 hours which is less than half of the 8 hours per ODI.

Would only need one review IMO, one review is enough for t20

JDizzle wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Good Jolly I am Olly wrote:For me Buttler should be coming in way way higher than 6. 

just out of curiosity...how ?

Should be above Stokes at least to be fair. Gets a bit trickier after that. I suppose you could even argue Buttler at 4 and Morgan at 5 - as I remember him saying, a few years back now though, that he preferred 5 and that is where he liked playing in T20s.

Do we need Root and Morgan batting together? Both are capable of hitting sixes, but neither of them are a power player. You could have those 4 in your middle order and be more flexible.

Hales and Roy to open
If the first wicket falls in the powerplay, promote Buttler to have a bash
If the first wicket falls shortly after the powerplay, send Root in
If the first wicket falls after the 10th over, you should have a good base and it could be time to unleash Buttler to get an unassailable score (especially if setting)

If you lose your second wicket and Root is in, don't send Morgan in and instead send a power player to hit freely and free up Root to get your big hitter on strike (punishing the bad balls himself as necessary). If you already have a power player in and Root goes, go for Morgan as your finisher.

Now come on. With sensible thinking like that, you could get yourself into trouble...

I'd like the one day batting order to change more with the situation in both ODIs and T20s.

In ODIs the lower order is more the case for this. Depending on the situation, pitch and bowlers with overs left Woakes, Willey and Rashid all have their ups and downs. Woakes is undoubtedly the best batsman overall but Willey can strike a very long ball. Dilly on the other hand is better than Willey on slower pitches where he is smart at finding gaps.

In T20s the top 6 could gain from being more fluid as Robbo says.

Don't really need to have a bash in the PP in T20 to crack along at a really tasty run rate though. Having a bloke like Root come in during the PP and just stroke it around with proper shots with only two men out is likely to be more effective than just sending in someone to have a slog.

And we forget very quickly, when we chased 230 against SA in the WT20 it was Root to did the bulk of the damage (on a great platform).

If we lose our first wicket after 10 overs, then yes have a tinker and promote Buttler.

To be fair there've been a few occasions in recent years where England have, on the back of a great platform, promoted Buttler up the order, at least in ODIs. The one where he smashed that ridiculous century off 46 balls in the UAE, IIRC Roy got a hundred, Hales a fifty and Buttler came in at 4 or 5. And the recent record-breaking score (also against Pakistan) where Hales got the highest ever ODI score for England, Buttler came in at 4 (and smashed 90-odd). There've been a few others too I'm sure.

Not sure I agree with the notion of Morgan not being a power player either, Morgan's six-hitting rate I reckon is very good. The slight issue I have with him at the moment is that it takes him a while to get going, so if he's not scoring decent scores he's eating up valuable time, especially in T20s. Root sure isn't a big six-hitter, though he can certainly hit them, but he scores quickly enough IMO through clever placement.

Buttler, for all his other great qualities, also happens to be England's best finisher (by some distance). 9 times out of 10 he'd have polished off the game the other day (and indeed has done in the past), certainly his hitting in the penultimate over had put England in a great position going into the last over, and usually you'd expect him to have pulled England through.

Eng won all the tosses in the limited over series......

India's set Eng 203 to win.......is not as big as it looks....perfect pitch...small boundaries....even mishits aerially cross the ropes.

Eng are evenly placed to win......they have juts the right batting for this pitch.
Yuvraj's breathtaking Cameo gave us about 12 runs more -....and may be the diffrence

So going with the reputation of the ground, Bengaluru has yet again produced a 200+ total as India end with 202. A first 50 in the format at this level for Mahendra Singh Dhoni, on top of Suresh Raina's 63 and Yuvraj Singh's turn-the-clock-back intervention as he savaged Chris Jordan's figures pushed India pass the 200 mark.
I have been really looking forward to see Rishabh Pant in the Indian side for now, and at last the lad got a chance, the youngest to play the format for India. But he didn't get to bat much, remaining not out on 6 of 3 balls...... Wish he keeps wickets in place of MS for some time.......

A total of 202 is par for this ground. And England by no means are batted out of this one. India will have to bowl really, really well to win here. As of now, its very much 50-50. Perhaps an over more of Yuvraj might have made a significant difference.......

Disgraceful? Embarrassing? Pathetic? What do you call that collapse from England? They've lost 8-8 in just about 3 overs!!

So England losing the test series, the ODI series and the T-20I series as well. The overall results aren't great, and the end was so embarrassing, but England have been better than the overall results or that horrendous end to the tour. Just that India have been better....... They had to earn the series win in all formats.......

msp83 wrote:Disgraceful? Embarrassing? Pathetic? What do you call that collapse from England? They've lost 8-8 in just about 3 overs!!

All of that and more. If I didn't know better I would say they were bribed to throw the game...but even then you wouldn't make it that obvious.

Absolutely abysmal...even by England standards. I actually stopped watching when Buttler threw his wicket away, as I knew what was coming.

I would hope the England players are thoroughly ashamed of themselves...but they will probably just think, "It happens...it was one of those games..."

dyrewolfe wrote:

msp83 wrote:Disgraceful? Embarrassing? Pathetic? What do you call that collapse from England? They've lost 8-8 in just about 3 overs!!

All of that and more. If I didn't know better I would say they were bribed to throw the game...but even then you wouldn't make it that obvious.

Absolutely abysmal...even by England standards. I actually stopped watching when Buttler threw his wicket away, as I knew what was coming.

I would hope the England players are thoroughly ashamed of themselves...but they will probably just think, "It happens...it was one of those games..."  

Because it was just one of those games....

Screwed out of the series by a crooked umpire in the last game